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Greg Wagner

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  1. No problem, Gil. It's still a work in progress, of course.
  2. Euins clarified that in his WC testimony, stating he meant a bald spot or white spot on the man's head. Other witnesses describe a man with blonde or sandy hair, dark-skinned men, and a man wearing a tan or brown suit coat. Fabian Escalante mentioned that del Valle and Diaz were participants. Information he received from Tony Cuesta or Felipe Vidal Santiago, if memory serves. Whether either of them were in the TSBD is unknown. Eladio del Valle https://tangodown63.com/del-valle-eladio/ Herminio Diaz Garcia https://tangodown63.com/diaz-garcia-herminio/
  3. Nice job, Gil. I also did some work on this a while back. Here are the seventeen people on record as having seen suspicious activity in the TSBD windows around the time of the shooting. If you click on the floor identified in each statement, it will bring up the source document: https://gregwagnersite.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/witness-matrix-2.pdf Here are the physical descriptions of the suspects given by these witnesses: https://gregwagnersite.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/suspect-description-matrix-1.pdf
  4. It certainly is, Denny. Of the seventeen eyewitnesses who are on record as having observed suspicious activity in the TSBD windows, Jackson was one of the few who never wavered in his assertion that the suspect/shooter was on the sixth floor. James Crawford, Johnny Powell and Arnold Rowland being the others. It's notable that Powell only gave one statement (that I could locate) and in it he also stated the window was empty at the time of the shots. https://gregwagnersite.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/witness-matrix-2.pdf
  5. That's a fair point, Jamey. They had the means to paper up patsy evidence on the fly and after the fact, but the Oswald legend was deeper and more well established than anything they could have put together in that fashion. Perhaps that suggests that Oswald was indeed Plan A. I do think there were redundant backups in place to pop Kennedy later in the Dallas route if something went wrong with the Dealey Plaza op. The idea of having backup options in terms of a patsy makes sense to me, even if they were inferior to the Oswald frame. As far as what, where and who, all we have is speculation.
  6. As the talking heads on TV say, there's a lot to unpack there, John. The idea of alternate or multiple patsies in Dealey Plaza is intriguing. I'm not sure what to make of Bill Shelley. There is a resemblance to the man in the New Orleans video. Roy Hargraves alluded to the "tramps" being patsies if the ambush failed and a car bomb was used somewhere beyond the underpass. I've always wondered if Loran Hall was being set up with Hemming's rifle, but he smelled a rat and didn't show up in Dallas. And Wes Frazier, who the DPD were all over early on. He owned an Enfield rifle (thanks to Rob Clark for that bit of information) and one of the early broadcasts mentioned an Enfield being recovered in the TSBD. The Hall and Frazier patsy ideas are just me speculating. Perhaps the guys who put the operation together wanted to have multiple options to keep open in case something went wrong with Plan A. Heck, for all we know, maybe Oswald as the patsy wasn't even Plan A. It's interesting to think about. That photo and the arrests / non-arrests are fascinating. I agree that Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Garcia Arce are curious, to say the least. Regarding DGA and Cubans, check out the photo comparison on the page I linked. Not only why were they were taken down in the back of a squad car, but where are Jarman and Norman at this point? Jarman, Norman and Williams came out of the building together and Williams is the only one of them that ended up in the back of a cop car. Why? How did Williams and Garcia Arce end up together? In one statement by one of the black guys on the fifth floor (can't recall which at the moment), they actually have DGA going up to the fifth floor with them to watch the motorcade. Say what? Williams and Garcia Arce both began working at the TSBD on or about Sept 6th, about the same time serious patsy-related activity around Oswald (setting him up) began to occur in Dallas. Another amazing coincidence. None of this is proof of anything, but you can only stack the questions and coincidences so high before ignoring them becomes malpractice. Yes, I recall Williams mentioning a first shot on Houston, then changing that to the intersection of Houston and Elm. Just one of several major problems with his testimony. The statements of Jarman, Norman and Williams are simply not believable. Not for me, anyway. I agree that three black warehouse workers in Texas in the early 60's would have been very easy to control through intimidation. Sad but true. Regarding the testimony of the witnesses who saw a gunman on the fifth floor, you can read them all on my Dealey Plaza Witnesses page. The list of those witnesses and the Cliff Notes version of what they saw (my summary) is the Witness Matrix I put together, which you can find here, on my work-in-progress blog post. I also covered this material in my Lancer presentation last November, but I'm not sure if that's still available.
  7. Thanks John... much appreciated. We agree there was no one firing from the sixth floor "sniper's nest." Bobby Joe Johnson is the witness who observed a man sticking a rifle out of a window near the west end of the building, but that's about all we have from him. No description, no floor. I suppose part of this comes down to who one believes. Dougherty, Jarman, Norman, Williams and Hollies? Or the multiple witnesses who said they saw a gunman on the fifth floor? That's actually an angle I hadn't thought of before. An analysis of those witnesses up against one another. That may not settle the issue, but it would shine a light on it from another angle. I do think it's possible Jarman, Norman and Williams were up there and saw more than they revealed, which is why their statements are such a mess. Thanks again for pointing out Mary Hollies' later statements. I will check those out soon.
  8. Hi John. That's really interesting. I was not aware of claims by Hollies and Foster after their March 1964 statements to the FBI, which have them on the fourth floor and don't mention those fascinating bits about Williams and Oswald. Do you know where I can find these later claims? You're right about there being plenty of testimony to contradict the witnesses who observed suspicious activity in the windows of the TSBD and my conclusions about the fifth floor. There's no question about that. Though I can't take anything Jarman, Norman and Williams said seriously. As I'm sure you know, their statements are an absolute train wreck. It goes beyond simply not being credible to the point of comedy. Nevertheless, I agree with your point. Trying to untangle, align and make sense of all the eyewitness and earwitness testimony from Dealey Plaza is an impossible exercise. It simply doesn't align and it can't all be true, as you pointed out. So rather than try to crack the uncrackable nut, I am focusing on a subset of the witnesses. The people who are on record as having seen suspicious activity in upper floor windows of the TSBD around the time of the assassination. There are plenty of challenges even within that small group. My first step was simply to determine the list of witnesses. How many people are on record as having observed something suspicious in those windows? So far, I have identified seventeen. The next step was to collect and organize each witness' various statements. This is largely complete but I still find new records from time to time and I have a couple in my files that I still need to add. I am now engaged in analyzing the sum of what each witness stated (and what has been attributed to them by law enforcement, an important distinction) and will post that analysis and my conclusions on my blog. There are problems and contradictions within this subset of witnesses and even within some individual witnesses' own collection of statements. Brennan and Carr, in spades. To a lesser degree, Euins and Rowland. Although with Euins and Rowland I suspect this may be due to law enforcement agencies not documenting the accounts accurately rather than the witnesses contradicting themselves. Amos Euins essentially tells us this in his HSCA interview. Almost every aspect of this case is full of contradictions. My goal is to identify the eyewitnesses to suspicious activity in the TSBD windows and try to make sense of that collective record. I don't have any illusions about being able to reconcile all the contradictions that exist among all those on record across Dealey Plaza. This is not to lessen your point, but simply to state that I have intentionally kept my focus limited to this set of witnesses. Heeding the advice of the great Dr. Leo Marvin, baby steps. Regarding my conclusions, they are indeed mine. They are not unassailable, and I do not wish to present them as fact. But I believe I will be able to support them as being the most logical conclusions to be drawn from the collection of eyewitnesses to those windows. Finding the time to write it up and post it is another matter, but I am working on it. There has been much discussion about the reliability of eyewitness testimony. Rightly so, as it’s proven to be imperfect. I submit “imperfect” is a more apt description than the oft employed “unreliable.” But perhaps that is splitting hairs. Is there any data on the reliability of earwitness testimony? Has it proven to be more accurate than eyewitness testimony? Less accurate? About the same? We have so much of it in this case that this seems like a relevant question. Regarding witnesses who heard shots originating from the west (knolls, fence, overpass, etc), I have no doubt they are correct. I think shots originated both from in front of Kennedy and behind. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Challenging assumptions is kind of what we do, right? Perhaps I will learn something along the way that will change my mind. That would mean progress and a better understanding of what really happened. For now, I think there was much afoot on the fifth floor.
  9. But they did state they heard gunfire from directly above, and debris falling from above (mortar dust, or something like it), and one of them said he heard the bolt being worked on a rile and shell casings hitting the floor above them. The testimony of Jarman, Norman and Williams basically accomplished two things. It pointed to a shooter in the sixth floor "Oswald window" and it precluded the possibility of any assassination-related activity occurring on the fifth floor. How predictably convenient.
  10. Hi Jamey. I do think it's likely Jarman, Norman and Williams were on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting. But based on a number of witness observations it's clear there were also suspects on the fifth floor just prior to and during the shooting, with at least one and possibly two men firing. The statements of Jarman, Norman and Williams all have several major problems and as Ron mentioned, there are a few good threads on that. I have a couple working theories on how this could have went down, but nothing definitive. Nothing I can really support. Just questions and ideas at this point. Many witnesses saw "black guys" in those windows just after the shots. Some witnesses also described Mexican or Latin-looking men up there in different windows prior to the shooting. I think it's an open question as to how many men with dark skin were up there and which ones were the guys seen in windows at different times. I certainly can't tell who the men are in the Dillard photo. Maybe they are indeed Jarman and Williams (I don't see anyone in the alleged Norman window). Maybe not. But there was a lot more happening on the fifth floor than just a few employees watching the motorcade. Jack Dougherty also claimed to have been on the fifth floor at the time of the shots. Like Jarman, Norman and Williams, he stated he saw no one. Not even those three guys. And they never saw him. And although multiple witnesses saw other men and at least one gunman fire from the fifth floor, no one up there saw anything suspicious. Sounds legit 🙄 Three black warehouse workers in Texas in the 1960's. As Ron mentioned, it would have been a simple matter to control these guys through intimidation. A sad state of affairs in this country, but true. I've never been able to track down anyone who knew those guys, but I imagine seeing whatever went down on the fifth floor during the assassination must have been difficult to carry through the rest of their lives. It's hard to believe they would not at least have hinted at things to those close to them.
  11. Hi Larry. Thanks for the kind words about my Lancer presentation. The work on these witnesses is very much a work in progress for me. I may have a couple more statements to add to the witness matrix soon. The latest versions of the witness matrix and the suspect description matrix can be viewed and downloaded from my Window Watchers blog post. This post is something I will add to over time. I am currently writing the next installment, which is on Howard Brennan. It has taken a while but is nearly complete and I hope to post it soon. As I am sure everyone is well aware, there is much to say about Mr Brennan. My thoughts, analysis and conclusions about the witnesses and what they mean will be developed throughout the post as I move forward with it. Finding the time lately has been difficult but I hope to get back to it in the coming weeks. I agree with Larry that Carolyn Walther and Arnold Rowland are among the more credible witnesses. I would add Amos Euins, Robert Edwards, Ronald Fischer and Ruby Henderson to that list. In my opinion, Brennan and Carr are the most problematic witnesses. As noted in this thread, there are certainly questions about Worrell and I haven't formed a thoughtful opinion on him yet other than to say I think he probably saw something approximating what he stated. I had an experience several years ago where I was questioned by police about an incident I witnessed. It was a pretty simple scenario, but I was surprised at how unsure I was about the details of what I saw and heard, the timing, what the people looked like, what they were wearing, the sequence of events, etc. I think I got most of it right but I am not confident I got it exactly right. I think about that incident a lot when reading these witness statements. You're not expecting something crazy to happen, then something explodes in front of you and almost immediately dissolves into the ether while chaos ensues all around. And you're standing there trying to piece together what you just saw and heard. That experience certainly shapes how I think about these witnesses. Carr is really interesting and also frustrating to consider. Is it possible he was on those scaffolding stairs - well outside where the walls of the building are today, as Ron astutely pointed out - and saw something or someone in an upper floor window that caused him to think this was the same guy he saw briskly walking up Houston to Commerce a couple minutes after the shooting? And that perhaps it was only then, when the guy was closer to him, that he saw the finer details of his appearance? I don't know. If he didn't actually witness this man in the hat and the Latin-looking men getting into a Rambler outside the TSBD, where did he get that information? Could the man in the hat be the same guy in the brown suit coat Carolyn Walther described? I find Carr's testimony in Clay Shaw's trial interesting in that he states the suspicious man he saw in the TSBD window was on the fifth floor. The FBI reports state Carr saw the guy on the seventh floor. In Garrison's On the Trail of the Assassins, Big Jim states the guy Carr saw was on the sixth floor. What a mess. But the only time we hear it from Carr's mouth... fifth floor. Could Carr have seen what he claimed? That's certainly an open question and I am willing to be convinced. But if he made all this up, how did he come up with descriptions of suspects that align so closely with what other witnesses saw? I have some basic conclusions at this point. I covered the evidence that supports them in my Lancer presentation and touched on some of this in a recent episode of the Quick Hits podcast. Activity related to the assassination occurred on both the fifth and sixth floors of the TSBD There was a gunman in the southeast corner window of the TSBD fifth floor, with light brown or blonde hair There may have been another TSBD gunman in a window near the west end of the fifth floor These guys made no attempt to conceal themselves from the throng of spectators below The testimonies of Jarman, Norman and Williams are largely false. They saw much more than they stated publicly. I am not confident in the accuracy of anything filtered through the FBI I don't post on forums or Facebook groups much these days, but I usually pop in to read. Thanks to everyone who contributes here and to whoever is footing the bill. This forum, despite the occasional kindergarten bickering and garbage, is tremendous. I have learned a lot here over the years and made a few friends. You all are the best (well, most of you ). Cheers, Greg
  12. Nine eyewitnesses observed a hole in windshield: Stavis Ellis, DPD HR Freeman, DPD Dr Evalea Glanges Joe Paolella, Secret Service Charles Taylor, Jr, Secret Service Richard Dudman, St Louis Dispatch Frank Cormier, St Louis Dispatch George Whitaker, Sr, Ford Motor Company Bill Greer (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police)
  13. Karl... you can find the 11/23 FBI report here: https://tangodown63.com/james-worrell-statements/
  14. Talk about spooky. One can only imagine what Bobby must have been thinking during that ride. Great photos, Vince.
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