Roy Wieselquist

This topic is bearing much fruit recently.  To recap/summarize some points especially salient to me from Joe Bauer and Ron Bulman:

* Jack Ruby's long friendship with William J. "Blackie" Harrison, delineating that relationship with great, often hilarious, examples

* credentialed Seth Kantor couldn't get near that basement, while Ruby had carte blanche, sailed right in (BTW, I love Seth's first edition "Who Was Jack Ruby?", one of the first I devoured on this long journey)

* cool, funny recollections by the strippers Rose Cheramie and the lesbian "Satan's Angel" (are you kidding?!  This is just too symbolic, or something); important: the observation of Ruby as Jekyll and Hyde, though it's important to remember when Ruby became violent, there was no danger to Ruby; he was the consummate coward

* Most Important: the cigar (and cigarette?) vending machine at the door for the backentrance to the basement on Commerce Street, a convenient excuse for "Blackie"

Y'all have nailed how Ruby got in the basement, pure and simple.  If you want to go the extra mile, I guess you could make a map.

Some forum members may not know this:

The WARren COmmissioN Report features Blackie Harrison as the very last line of the REAL text.  Page 813, at end of Appendix XVII "Polygraph Examination of Jack Ruby," before the (joke of an) "Interpretation of the Test," before the footnotes, index and "A Historical Afterword" by Confederate apologist Bruce Catton (which is the very end of the volume I have) -------------------------

Q. Did "Blackie" Hanson speak to you just before you shot Oswald?

A. No.

Of course, there was no Blackie HANSON.  The name does not appear in the index.  Harrison, William J. appears only once in the index, for page 224.  Where it tells the police JR was standing behind before he darted through to shoot The Wizard of Ozzie.   They are Harrison, Glen King, C. O. Arnett, and W. M. Croy.

So Jack Ruby DID NOT LIE, obfuscate, derail, meander, or go cray-cray this one time.  He didn't speak to Blackie HANSON.

PS to Ron Bulman:  I saw in some post on this forum that you posted on JFK Facts with the name Ronnie Wayne.  (I posted there as Roy W. Kornbluth, in homage to the Shakespeare of the 20th century, C. (Cyril) M. Kornbluth.)  I should have known Bulman and Wayne were one and the same because you have the same voracious reading of the literature AND excellent big-picture comprehension of it WITH a good bit (not too much) of well- grounded passion.  So I am in your debt twice, bigly.  I can't express.....  "FREE THE FILES!" right?

PPS to Joe Bauer, Micah Mileto and all the other brethren and sistren true amateurs (love and passion) like me for the resolution of this.  We will end this Dark Age.  Of course with the help of "standing on the shoulders of giants" like Palamara, Lane, Meagher, Thompson, Marrs, Weisberg, DiEugenio, Caddy, Lifton, McBride, et al.

Since I referred to JFK's humor in Houston that same day that he was in San Antone, 11-21-63, I ran across a youtube from Vince Palamara with that e (2) JFK's humor, Houston, 11/21/63- Kennedy Detail- Clint Hill+ - YouTube  xact excerpt.

Here's an attempt at a transcript:

"Next month, when the United States of America fires the largest booster in the history of the world into space, and for the first time gives us the lead --- fires the largest payroll -- uh, payLOAD -- into space, giving us the lead --  It WILL be the largest payROLL, too.  (extended laughter and applause from those greedy, grasping, incompetent ************)

"And, uh, who should know that better than Houston? (crinkly grin amid short, somewhat embarrassed laughter) -- 'n' let's put a little bit of it right in here.  (pats breast pocket, meaning donations for the 1964 campaign)

"But in any case, the United States next month will have a leadership in space which it wouldn't have...(unintelligible)"

By the way, the articles given by Vince and Steve above say the resulting crater outside San Antonio was (and still is?) 25 feet deep, 60 feet in diameter.  By the photo with men (5'-6' tall) standing at the rim, that crater is at least 50' deep and over 100' in diameter.  Those military Texans can't even make a simple measurement.

Kennedy gave in to Lyndon and the other Texans SO much, gave them everything they wanted.  But still, it wasn't good enough.  They still hated him with a murderous passion.  Why?

Does anyone remember reports of a car parked along Stemmons that was loaded with explosives?  I think near Cobb Stadium (atop which a rifleman was spotted BTW).  This car-bomb was a last-ditch weapon in case Kennedy left Dealey Plaza alive, supposedly.  Speculation:  What if the explosives for this car came from the storage facility outside Alamo City above.  And when they cadged the bomb from Medina Base, they had to move materials around, and that was the cause of the igloo and the two "Straddle-carriers" going boom.  Possible?

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That's an interesting hypothesis Roy. It might find a nice home on this other thread.

It seems like your theory could explain much of the evidence. Here are a couple possible deficiencies that I can see. Maybe you can address them:

• How could the apex of the right lung have been bruised from this bullet? It appears to me that the bullet would not have passed that far to the right as it passed above the lung. See where the apex is in this diagram:

 

• Why would Humes have lied by claiming the back wound was 1) shallow and 2) had a downward-sloping track?

P.S.  Your head shot scenario seems reasonable to me. (FWIW) A bullet shot from the south knoll strikes the left-temple area and blows out the lower-right back part of the skull. And a frangible bullet from the north knoll strikes the right temple, thus creating a constellation of fragments. (Perhaps a frangible bullet was chosen so that Jackie would not be harmed.)

 

Great anatomy illustration, Sandy.

How was the apex of the right lung bruised?  I don't figure the bullet had to pass directly through the affected areas.  All that bone and cartilage in that area has to push and pull with different forces.  The pleural lining had to have been breached at sharp angles, creating who knows what auxiliary damage.

About the back wound, why would Humes lie RE 1. shallowness of the wound, 2.the downward sloping track?  1.he never found the tear in the pleura.  Remember the body was 8 to 12 hours cold, serious rigor mortis must have set in, and probably if prosector doesn't find the exact spot.,..  AND they were moving the skin all around which would further prevent finding that spot.                           2 he didn't find ANY track, just took a WAG that followed along with what the generals and other poobahs told him.  I've always wondered, if the wound was so shallow, how could he make a judgment about the direction?

He wasn't lying.  He was incapable of doing the job; the Keystone Kops  could have done better.  Also, there's that American military going-along-to-get-along that has driven this nation into the ground.

PS to your PS: There's a compendium by a kid named Vince Palamara (doesn't look over 30 in his photo) titled JFK from Parkland to Bethesda.  Page 86, a statement by Hugh Huggins (aka Howell), Marine and undercover CIA who claims to have been at both Parkland and Bethesda:  "I distinctly saw an entry wound in the left temple...could not have been fired from the rear...exited the right side of the president's head..."  He had it pretty right, IMO.

PPPPPS:  Are you any relation to Don "World Series Perfect Game" Larsen?  I knew his brother Vic.

Vince,

Good golly, this is quite a find, fills out the scenario of cataclysmic incompetence in the Lone Star Republic Nov. 1963.

San Antonio, 11,13,63--eight days before JFK and LBJ were there on their big Texas swing, an EIGHTH of a million pounds of explosives in a special igloo go kerblooie.

Towering mushroom cloud, windows break 30 miles away.  Our fine military/weapons/complex "at work".

Three grunts, two in the igloo when the chain reaction starts (starting with a "popping noise like a shotgun blast"), and one at the nearby "straddle-carrier" (is that fancy military talk for a "trailer-bed" or a "truck"?)-------ESCAPE UNHARMED.  No doubt they adhered to the always practical Aristotelean philosophy of get-the-hell-out-of-there-ism.  One felt that he was blown 50 yards by the blast, and that's because he was moving quickly in the right direction, going with the flow.

No bigshots, no officers in sight helping with the dirty dangerous job, or at least overseeing it.  What do they get the big bucks and shiny boffo uniforms for?  But ain't that the 1963 Texas and US military way?  Both together=double whammy.  Three grunts, all alone, doing it all.

It's a shame some bigshot like William KING Harvey wasn't there giving his expertise.  Maybe he woulda pulled out his fancy shooting-iron and spooked that bomb into submission.

And what if the mighty cigar-chomping Curtis LeMay had been there to boss around the operation like he did at the Bethesda autopsy?  News reports say, "He must have vaporized.  Nothing of The General's body was found.  Except, perhaps, some of his fruit salad discovered a mile away by some boys playing hooky from school."

The igloos are still visible from a highway.  And a 25 foot deep, 60 foot wide crater.  One of the survivors says of the igloos, "No telling what's in them."  You betcha.

Oh I wish there was record of some Kennedy bon mots about this one-more-time-again Texan stewardship of the nation's wealth (blood, sweat and tears). Like he did that same day in big bad Houston at the new space center (that he gave as a sop to Lyndon and those other back-shootin crooks), something like, "Never has there been such a payroll -- er, excuse me -- payload."

Vince, PS:  You are feeding us old dogs very well; some of us are getting fat

On 8/12/2018 at 3:00 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

McClelland said that he saw the throat wound "clearly":

Though he called it an ENTRANCE wound. (Not an exit of a fragment.)

BTW, the way he describes the throat wound and the back wound, it appears to me that he was thinking that a shot to the throat exited the back. I have started a new thread for discussion of that.

 

Thanks, Sandy.  I had never seen this before.  And since Dr. McC didn't see the back wound, he has it high, probably relying on the data from the Bethesda abortion.

Additionally, the right occipital "blowOUT" can be explained by a left temple entrance wound, as seen by SO many. Another shot from the South Knoll, most likely.  The other head shot, IN over right ear, from the North (Grassy) Knoll was definitely a frangible.  If not, why the "constellation" of lead/metal particles emanating from there?

"Where is the exit?" (for the throat wound)

From Cliff Varnell's excellent physical evidence, I have nearly perfected the answer to that question, 90-some % I would say.

-- burn, nick on left side of necktie knot

-- 5-6 mm puncture wound in lower third of throat, centrally located

-- right side of trachea grazed at 3rd or 4th tracheal ring; trachea deviated to the left

-- apex of right lung contused, making an upside-down pyramid

-- transverse process of T1 deformed, a "stress-pull", not a direct hit but weakened by all tissues around it being pulled, I believe

-- ABRASION COLLAR in lower part of back wound,  between spine (T3 or 4 level) and shoulder blade.  I believe this indicates that the shot-line was at an acute angle to this abrasion collar, the lower part of the wound.

-- bullet holes in shirt and jacket about an inch right of center, and about six inches down from the top of the collars.  The shirt and jacket were pulled at least an inch to the RIGHT, not up, by Kennedy's right arm motions.  That's why the bullet-hole in the skin was a good two inches off center.

SO that shot came from the front left (15 to 20 degrees WAG) and about 15 degrees above the horizontal, about where the railroad bridge meets the South Knoll.

The shot was probably intended for the head, but the limo was slowing so much between the newly-painted stripes on the curb, that the shot didn't track right.  Or possibly Sarti didn't see the roof support and the bullet nicked that.

BTW, all the autopsy photos of the back, you can see they are scrunching the skin UP to make it look like the back wound is higher.

The sketch by McClelland on page 16 of this topic has it right, positing the back wound as EXIT for the throat wound ENTRANCE.  Thanks for that sketch, Sandy, Dr. Larsen.

Much neglected, one of the greatest journalists of the 20th century, HELEN THOMAS, claims to have been at the Murchison's.  There's so much independent corroboration for this get-together that it isn't funny.  It happened.  It's kind of like professional witness Seth Kantor seeing/hearing/touching/smelling (everything but tasting) Jack Ruby at Parkland.  It happened.

Johnson, Nixon, Hoover, et al. could get around with all the modern transportation at their disposal.  LBJ left Carswell a few minutes after 11.  (Ron Bulman, thanks so much for Dave Powers' annotated itinerary.  He was so attentive to details as JFK's "get him there on time" man.  I'd never seen this before, a precious document.)  How hard was it for Johnson to be at some familiar place before midnight in his old stomping grounds?

This is like the quibbles about Mac Wallace.  His son says he saw him at supper in California ("after work" as he says Mac said from Joan Mellen), 6 pm, which is 8 Dallas time.  This is 7 and a half hours after the gunfire in Dealey.  How hard was it for Mac to get home by plane in that time?  With all the planes flying around at the time, at the beck and call of our lord and master the Military-Fascist-Complex.   See Robert Vinson, etc., etc.

There's a disturbing trend in the research community.  A Lone Nutter, or even not a Nutter, can make one microscopic quibble about the witnessing of one of a thousand other witnessings in one area, and throw out the whole area of research.

PS This is not to say that LBJ and RMN met in Dallas for three hours during the afternoon of 11-21, a la Roger Stone.  That would have been impossible.  Sure, Nixon was in Dallas at the Pimpsi Convention with Joan "Mommie Dearest" Crawford, but Lyin, Murderin Lyndon was in San Antonio (birthplace of Joan "Mommie Dearest" Crawford) and Houston at that time.

And by the way, add Ms. Crawford to the list of those who had foreknowledge of JFKA.  And she murdered her last husband, Alfred Nu Steele.  Circa 1963 Texas was the world's depository for human garbage.  With all due respect.

The Man Who Was Everywhere, Douglas Caddy, is about to be on Coast to Coast.

Thanks for the heads-up, Doug.

Posted January 20, 2005

Above is the second post of the earliest Ed Forum thread on the motorcade route.  Ralph Yarborough to Jerry Bruno at their first meeting for the Texas trip:  They (LBJ and Connally) would be "after [Texas argot for kill] Kennedy in a minute if they thought they could get away with it."

In John Simkin's first post, Evelyn Lincoln remembers JFK saying to her after a John Connally visit, "He (JBC) sure seemed anxious for me to go to Texas."  The President smelled a rat on the governor from the start.  That's why he made sure Lyin' Lyndon's boy rode in the car with the President.

Bruno, as White House advanceman, went to Texas twice when the Trade Mart luncheon in Dallas was nailed down, 10/29/63 and 11/6/63.

When JBC and Bruno had a lunch meeting in Texas about the upcoming trip, and Bruno was still objecting about the Trade Mart, John Con had a hissy fit.  He got up (right at the start of lunch!), stormed to the phone, "called the White House", and made a big production about chewing out Kenny O'Donnell on the other end.  Then Gov. Connally came back to the flustered, dumbfounded Jerry Bruno and said it was all settled.  Problem is, after the assassination, the White House denied the JBC phone call.  Phony phone calls were a hallmark of the Texas Duo, LBJ and JBC.  LBJ did the same thing on Air Force One when he said Bobby insisted he take the oath of office before leaving Love Field.

Jim Phelps has it that the big Women's Building at the State Fairground was used by the big Pepsi bottlers convention that weekend.  The one that Joan Crawford and Richard Nixon went to.  It would be interesting to know when Pepsi reserved that venue.

This thread would be better named, "Who chose..." or "Who demanded..." the Trade Mart, hence the fatal parade route.  And that Who is obviously John Connally, who used every subterfuge until he got his way.  And there can be no doubt that he was doing the bidding of his perfidious partner, LBJ.

Happy birthday yesterday to our First Citizen, President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.  You're 101.  Feeling good?  Feeling spry?

On 5/26/2018 at 12:48 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Roy - the pic is of the back of his head? Where was he standing? The ears look like Skorzeny.

Paul,

No, the back of the head in this first Frank Cancellare photo (crop/blowup) is a photographer in the foreground, on the North (Grassy) Knoll.  The Newmans are still on the ground in front and below him, and James Tague is still in his position on Main, below the TUP, all unseen in this small crop (courtesy of Ron Ecker from a while ago):

http://www.ronaldecker.com/southknollfigure.jpg

Here's the original:

CANCELLARE_zpsiyhpkjh3.jpg

You will probably have to blow it up some to see what I'm talking about.  The second tall tree left of the TUP  -- on its left is a light-colored pickup with darkened windows, and on the right side of that tree is Otto S., dubbed "Badgeman #2" by some wags.  He's tiny in the original photo, but huge when compared to that pickup truck.

From all the good evidence on this good thread, I now think Otto Skorzeny is the huge man seen walking down Main toward Dealey with packed rifle case; and that he ended up at the top of the South Knoll [way far in the background] for the shooting.  With the French Corsicans.

Brancato, Schwartz, Marverde, Varnell, Clark -- I'd love your opinions on the following:

From this thread and "The Unspeakable" thread, it's inescapable that the supranational elements of the coup are a tight group who appeared to the world as having little or nothing to do with each other.  They are the most fascistic leaders of the following:

-- the CMC-Permindex-Vatican (especially)-P2 nexus

-- OAS-NATO-Operation Gladio

-- MOSSAD

And Skorzeny is the Nazi glue that sticks them all together.

On 5/19/2018 at 11:10 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Apparently no one wants to consider Otto Skorzeny as a possible source for assassins at Dealey Plaza. 

Paul B.,

A sort of epiphany/wild guess:

--Before noon, a few witnesses saw a bear of a man (at least 6' 4", 275 pounds) strolling down Main Street with a full rifle case, heading toward Dealey Plaza.  Someone on Ed Forum must be able to cite a source for this.  Skorzeny was just such a bear, and with a very obvious scar on his face in an interrupted "C" shape, going from the right sideburn area, interrupted by the mouth, and on to the jawline.  And remember, OS was only in his early 40s at this time, not too old.  [WRONG!!!  Skorzeny was 55 at the time.  SORRY!!!]

--Here's a cropped blow-up of the first Cancellare photo:

http://www.ronaldecker.com/southknollfigure.jpg

(I tried to get the actual pic here, but....dumb as a dog computer-wise)

This is the second big tree left (south) of the TUP (railroad bridge).  To the right of this tree's trunk is a very largish man, a bear of a man in dark-ish, uniform-looking clothing.  For years, I've thought he's the rear guard for the South Knoll squad of assassins, so I assumed he's one of the French/Corsicans, Lucien Sarti or Jean Souetre or whoever was there.

Now I think he's Otto Skorzeny.

Because, from this thread, it's apparent that OS was quite familiar with the Corsicans and OAS types and their milieu.

Mike, thanks for the heads-up. 

Unfortunately, the Amazon blurb right at the top of the page makes the rookiest mistake of all-time re RFK, calling him R "Fitzgerald" K.  Anyone familiar with the dude knows it's Robert Francis Kennedy.  Rose and old Joe had their boy pegged to be a priest.  Man, were they wrong.

On 10/19/2017 at 2:45 PM, George Sawtelle said:

Time of impulse (shot)                                                                                               Zap film blur

136.20 sec                    back Ken. the misfire DelTex bldg                                         Z158

     1.5 sec                                                                                                                           1.7 sec

137.70 sec                    throat picket fence GN behind pergola                                Z189

     1.6 sec                                                                                                                            2.0 sec

139.27 sec                    Connally shot  probably DelTex bldg                                    Z224

     1.1 sec                                                                                                                            3.3 sec

140.32 sec                     missed shot injury Tague TSBD                                           Z290

     4.6 sec                                                                                                                            1.3 sec

144.90 sec                     head shot  GN                                                                         Z313

     0.7 sec                                                                                                                            1.0 sec

145.61 sec                    missed shot lodged in grass southside Elm TSBD            Z331

The first column taken from Table 13 pg 582 "Hear No Evil" Thomas. The second column are my notes. The third column taken from Table 2 and Figure 6.3 pgs 208 and 209 "Hear No Evil" Thomas. I derived the time internal for the Zap film blur by dividing 18.3 (frames per sec) into the difference between the Z frames.

There is good correlation in the beginning and ending sequences but major difference in the middle sequence. The difference could be two-fold.

1. Not enough shooter positions for the acoustical analysis. BBN used two positions, the TSBD and the GN. And BBN did not use the GN for all targets.

2. The Zapruder film was definitely altered. The alteration would throw off the blur analysis with regard to the Z frames.    

 

  

                         

Michael Crane,

Good topic, a good exercise.

I agree with your shot estimate, "about 9 or more" -- which is shown by the physical evidence.

IMO, we can nail down that 6 shots hit inside the limo.  I'll deal with that first.  Later, I'll deal with the shots that hit outside the limo, 3 at the very least; most likely 4 or 5.

[ASIDE:  It must be remembered that 1.) most of the 9-11 shots came from rifles with sound suppressors, 2.) supersonic "cracks" may have been heard by witnesses near the bullets' paths, 3.) the assassins tried to fire in volleys so that multiple shots could sound/look as one to witnesses -- the freshly-painted orange stripes on Elm Street's south curb (one at Jean Hill's feet) were meant to aide in these fusillades.  These 3 factors caused witnesses in different places to hear different gunshot noises.]

The 6 shots that hit inside the limo:

1.) on Pres. Kennedy, around Z190-200 (while JFK behind "Stemmons sign") -- from South Knoll, IN lower third of throat, graze rt side trachea, graze top rt lung, OUT back between spine (T4 or 5 level) and right shoulder blade.  These wounds line up and point to SK about where the postal bldg. parking lot meets the south end of TUP.  About 15 degrees up and 15 degrees to Kennedy's left.  If the direction were reversed, the bullet would have had to originate from the Lincoln's trunk.

2.) on Gov. Connally, around Z220 -- from TSBD 6th floor, 2nd or 3rd window from SW corner,  where Lee "the Wizard of" Oswald stationed himself.  ~30 degrees vertical, 40 lateral to JBC at this point.  IN back near rt armpit, along 5th rib, OUT under and left of rt nipple.  Of those who were against JFKA, LO had infiltrated the plot more than anyone, better than Gary Underhill, Richard C. Nagell, Eugene Dinkins combined.  And Ozzie was determined to make the TX governor pay SOMEthing for his treachery because he had to know that JBC was integral to the conspiracy.  Besides, LO had his own list of previous beefs against John Con.  Soon after The Big Event, EVERY adult who knew Lee well said something along the lines of, "I can see him shooting Gov. Connally, but Pres. Kennedy...?!"  I believe a lot of Loy Factor's account in The Men on the Sixth Floor, esp. his lineup:  LF in SW window, LO two windows east, and Mac Wallace in the SE window "sniper's nest," with Ruth Ann Martinez working the radio behind LO.

3.) on JBC, around 290 -- again from LO on 6th floor (much closer to the NW stairs than the SE "sniper nest").  IN top rt wrist (radius, a very hard bone, on the thumb side of wrist), out underside of wrist.  The bullet had separated into at least 2 pieces, one going into his left thigh, the other putting a ding in the chrome plate for the ashtray that was on the back of the front seat.  Much neglected, this is on p. 70 of Robert Groden's The Killing of a President.

5. and 4.) on JFK's head, very close together around 313 of the horribly mutilated Zap film, see George Sawtelle above.  ONE came from the North Knoll (the Grassy), most likely some kind of frangible that left a constellation of particles on its path from IN over the rt ear to the cowlick area. OR A piece of the bullet may have gone out that crown/cowlick area, as Robert Harris believes, I believe.  The OTHER head bullet around 313 came from pretty much the same direction as the first shot that hit inside the limo, most likely that SK sniper.  IN LEFT temple (very much neglected, several witnesses) and OUT RIGHT occiput.  BUT it is POSSIBLE, the more I look at it, that the extremely questionable Bill Greer could have made that shot when Kennedy's head was bent forward from Greer slowing the car down so much**.  Didn't the Canadian Norman Similas, right there, hear the loudest boom at this point?  Jackie was in shock after this, doesn't remember anything after this.  The Connallys bounce around like flying squirrels at this point, spraying the yellow roses of TX all over the place.  But it was probably from the South Knoll, this shot that went in left forehead/temple and out right occiput, exposing the cerebellum. And right as, or right before, the dumdum from NK.                      **At Parkland, Greer had the most colorful and specific observation, "His head looked like a hard-boiled egg with the top chopped (or sawed) off."  Therefore, he saw it real good before Jackie and others tried to screw it back into place.

6.) chrome windshield trim, around Z330 or down in front of the steps.  Ozzie's last attempt to make the murderers of democracy and decency pay something for their worse than Judas-and-Brutus-put-together perfidy.  Remember his crummy MC shot high and to the right, so he was probably aiming at Greer at this point, esp. with JBC hugging the floor of the jumpseat area.  You can tell this shot came from high and to the right by the direction of the dent into the hardest metal known (and used) at the time, Chrome.  Very much neglected is the dent in the back of the rearview mirror.  The dent in the chrome strip, the rearview mirror, and the crack in the windshield are all in a line, and point back to high up on the SW corner of TSBD, the perch of The Wizard of Ozziewaldskovich.

Shots (possible) outside the limo (shot origins -- County Records, Dal-Tex, TSBD, NK):

-- before Z133, when the limo was turning onto Elm; pockmarks in JFK's rt face; films burned up for several frames at this point a la Robert Harris; probably from Dal-Tex.  (N.B.: the most obvious example of Z-film tampering, as if Zappie stopped filming just WHEN the Prez came into view, then STARTED filming AGAIN when he was about to go behind the later moved/phony Stemmons sign)

-- front of limo, center of street

-- at Jean Hill's feet, repeatedly asked about by SS and FBI

-- Tague

-- manhole cover

-- Stemmons Freeway sign.  Is anyone here an expert on when and why the sign was moved?  The back of the one in Z is not the one there 11/22/63.  Plenty of reasons why, but this post is running on........

George Sawtelle,

Thanks for that nice summary/recap of the dictabelt spikes compared to the blurs of Z.  It's helping me refine my picture of this part of the coup de 63.

Ian,

Thanks for that. It figures someone would have asked Frazier about PM.

You have the Kennedy wit: "Jack Dougherty is an interesting character TOO..." I'm still chuckling and I'll always remember how it's spelled. Funny thing is I've known several Doughertys who spelled it right. But with anything from the South, I figure they mangle it. "When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you." which is me... suffering from reverse psych projection.

(BTW, everyone, it's WIEgman, not Weigman. I've seen it both ways so much, had to go and look it up and commit it to memory.)

Looking at all the pics of Dougherty I could find, I'm convinced Prayer Man is JED. Unusually long arms, and proportionally narrow shoulders. And I have a ton of evidence previous to that.

Dumb question to everyone,

Will someone please ask Wesley Buell Frazier who Prayer Man is? (or has it already been done?)

Buell was standing at the top of the steps at this time, right? He's been identified in Wiegman, Couch, and Darnell, right? In this amazing GIF above (BTW, where is Chris Davidson?), Billy Lovelady is going down the steps, and PM is straightening up or going up the steps. The right elbow in strong sunlight to PM's left is Buell Frazier's elbow, right? (or he's farther back in the shadow) In other photos, WBF is looking in PM's direction. If I had the computer skills of a five-year old, I would include those photos in this comment to make it more clear what I'm saying.

Someone on Ed Forum must know Mr. Frazier or how to get in touch with him. It seems the last few years that he is amenable to queries. But most likely he has not seen these clarified photos. Which may jog his memory.

I'm not very good at asking strangers questions out of nowhere. There must be a good way to go about it. If it were me talking to WBF, I would just jump in there with what I think, "Was that Jack Edwin Dougherty standing to your right in the shadow, with a coffee cup in his hands at the end of the parade?" And it should probably be an open-ended question.

Many of the great investigators who have done the groundbreaking work on PM (hats off to you, really) really want him to be Lee Oswald, who, in my opinion, is a great hero who was twice assassinated. He tried to stop JFKA more than anyone, and was murdered for his efforts. First his body, then his character was assassinated.

I believe the PM study has already borne great fruit, especially for me. If only for all the photo graphic evidence that has been compiled.

But dig this, if PM is Jack Dougherty, it is massive, YOOOCH as Donnie Dumpster says. JED testified that he was near the 5th floor elevators when the shooting occurred. Though Williams, Jarman, and Norman didn't see him when they ran to that side, the west, then the north, side of the building. And JED didn't see or hear them. Because he wasn't there. JED was the mini-boss over Troy West and Eddie Piper who controlled the elevators for, they thought, Roy Truly and Ochus V. Campbell. Before that, up to 12:15, JED was a low man (with Piper) on the totem pole of a group of 4-6 that went through the 6th and 7th floors, clearing out potential witnesses. They only had to run off Bonnie Ray Williams, Jr. Loy Factor had it right about the end-result of this little part of the operation ----- Mac Wallace in the SE window, LF in the SW window, LHO one or two windows east of LF.

It's a long story, too long to explain here. I've been drafting a letter to Bonnie Ray Williams III for about a year. His father passed away in the late 1990s. I believe BRW II left a lot of material behind, and his son BRW III may be amenable to the right searcher.

If Jack Dougherty is PM, it is very big. Because of all the sort of negative clues that JED left behind with his contradictory, crazy testimony, it exonerates LHO from shooting Kennedy if JED was on the front landing where he said he was NOT. Negative Template. A ton of it.

P.S. This doesn't look so clear to me now. Anyway, could someone PLEASE ask the living W. Buell Frazier who PRAYER MAN is?! He was right there.

Edited for correct spelling of Jack Edwin Dougherty. It's not Daugherty. Thanks, Ian.

Robert and all,

This is a nick rather than a hole in the tie, right?

I have a big favor to ask everyone. I am certain that I read, many years ago, in a primary source, that: "There was a nick in the lower left of the tie-knot." Can anyone help me out with a reference?

If you rotate the above photo 90 degrees clockwise (as you did in the GIF that follows), as a tie goes horizontally around the knot, that would put the blood-stain (and burn mark I would argue), slightly on the back side of the knot. IF the nick were on the side. Small potatoes, that. I just wonder if this closeup photo of the tie on JFK was THAT morning, because it looks like the nick and stain(s) should be one vertical row of icons to JFK's left. Maybe he tightened his tie sometime after this pic was taken. That would pull it over some to his left. Again, small potatoes.

Both the photos are great finds and resources, and the GIF is great.

And this topic is great about clarifying the bullet wound that is, was, and always will be in JFK's throat.

Cliff Varnell #757: Linda Willis testimony, "...first turned from waving,...grabbed his throat and kind of slumped forward."

Nellie Connally: "It was just a frightening noise and it came from the right. (Trans: it passed by HER right. She didn't know the origin. I believe this shot, the first to hit inside the limo, came from the South Knoll, Over Greer's left ear, might have nicked the roof support, making "a frightening noise" [along with the sonic boom] and causing it to land lower than the gunman was sighting, into "lower anterior third" of JFK's neck, instead of his head. OR just because Greer was slowing so much, THAT could have made the bullet lower than intended.)

Nellie (cont.): she turned right "and saw the President as he had both hands at his NECK." "no utterance, no cry" (She didn't hear him exclaim "My God, I'm hit" because the "frightening noise" briefly deafened her OR she was scared temporarily deaf OR she was l***g)

Nellie finish: "...and he just sort of slumped down." Which corroborates Linda Willis and everyone else who saw him, including the heavily messed-with Zapruder film.

Cliff Varnell #763 and 765 --Nurse Henchliffe is simply GREAT. Very simple, two obvious wounds: a small, clean puncture ENTRANCE wound in the throat and a blowout in the right back of the head. Dr Carrico concurs.

Humes probably has one thing right, only because he had the time to study it closely, carefully. The nick on the right side of the trachea was between the 3rd and 4th tracheal rings. Not the 2nd and 3rd as the rushed Parkland doctors estimated.

To CONCLUDE -- a high-velocity small-bore round from a muzzled rifle came from the South Knoll over Greer's left ear, Then MAYBE glanced off the underside of the roof support. And struck JFK in the neck (just above the collar bone), contused right lung apex, and exited the back between spine and scapula at T4 level.. Ripped holes in the shirt and coat, which evidence was not destroyed, miraculously. I know this sounds like one of those impossible basketball shots -- off the roof, onto the metal bed of a passing turnip truck, through the tree, and SWISH through the hoop -- but it's snot.

James Gordon in the "Shallow" back wound topic (with ref. to Gary Murr) had a lot about the FBI tests for metal residue on the coat and shirt holes. They found a lot of metal there and none on the front clothing. Because the bullet was nearly pristine entering the throat and messed up and drastically slowed exiting the back. Therefore, the throat was the entrance and the back was the exit for that one missile from South Knoll.

Very interesting -- Ed Haslam found out that Ozzie was in New Orleans the day before and the day after he was in Oak Ridge, TN 7,25,63. That's when he signed the registry at the Atomic Museum "Lee Oswald, USSR" and gave his address as "Dallas Rd., Dallas, Texas." Of course there is no Dallas Road in Big D.

Haslam is certain that LHO had to fly there because of how long it took to drive to NE Tennessee back in the day, 14-16 hours each way. Further, EH thinks LHO must have flown there and back on a CIA bird. And EH thinks Ozzie and crew were most likely transporting guns and/or military ordnance, probably stolen or at least illicit.

Oswald was a busy fellow around that time:

7,19,1963 -- quit or was fired from Reily Coffee

then raids on Lake Pontchartrain anti-Castro training camps

7,25,63 -- quick trip to Knoxville area (leaves cryptic message?)

final raid on L. P. training camps

very soon handing out leaflets in front of N. O. Trade Mart. Lee thought he needed Cuban back-up for such a potentially dangerous task, so he got his good bud Rafael Cruz (yup, dad of Ted). Oz waited for TV cameras to show up before leafletting. Whole thing couldn't be much more manufactured sounding, ey?

I was looking around the web for LHO connections to Atomic Energy Commission and ran across essays by Jim Phelps. It sounds reasonable what he deduced: that there was to be a Dallas leg of the Texas trip was pinned down as early as June 5 and that Oak Ridge knew by July 26 (the day after LHO and CIA and co. was there) that JFK's D-date was to be 11,22,1963. Jim Phelps also thinks that an old Jack Ruby pal, Ray Tucker - then at Oak Ridge, was a leader in JFKA. And that Israel got their nuke material from stolen Oak Ridge stockpiles.

_______________

There was so much more in that Ed Haslam interview. Maybe I can put it on here soon and see if anyone sees any meat on dem bones. I got a lot out of Dr. Mary's Monkey, though much of it SEEMS preposterous, like a sci-fi horror movie. But that's a trait of the 1960's assassinations, the full enormity of them are really too horrible for most Americans "to wrap their head around."

James,

Thanks so much for that informative reply, really. I'm seeing, more and more, how many experts in the field believe that LBJ was NOT a prime mover. I had no idea. I guess I ASSumed that it's so obvious.

No serious researcher thinks he had NO idea it was coming, but I am so surprised by how many seem to think LBJ was just along for the ride. Not me. And that's not only from McClellan and Nelson. Don't forget Zirbel, the first to lay it out. I love me some Craig Zirbel.

By the way, James Douglass doesn't go into LBJ's part because that's not the purview of The Unspeakable. That's about the REASONS for the coup. JFK signed his death warrant at least 20 times, 20 different ways. The LBJ-did-it books are more about the HOW, as opposed to the WHY.

Roy:

1. These foreign policy reversals that you name at the beginning, those reversals would have happened if LBJ was in on the plot or not. They also would have happened if Kennedy had been defeated in 1964 by say Goldwater or Nixon. And, in fact, Nixon and Kissinger continued reversing JFK's foreign policy years later. Simply because, unlike Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon and Goldwater simply had no sophistication or sensitivity about these kinds of issues, especially in the Third World. Which are the three places you mention.

True that LBJ and Goldwater had no sophistication about these issues, quite the opposite; both of them, especially AuH20, could barely read, whereas Kennedy read to practically a morbid extent. Goldwater may have nuked Hanoi if given the chance. Nixon's different in sophistication. He inherited LBJ's war and removed combat troops pretty fast for America, though he sure did bomb the joint.

True that JFK was holding back the dogs of war, practically alone. So, in your mind, SE Asia is a moot point vis a vis LBJ's part in the plot. It seems to me like putting the cart before the horse because Nam was a big bonus for the coup. I can't see it being that massive and fast without some kind of thieves' bargain. There's just no accounting for it. Has there been a crazier, more sudden war in all history?

And by the way, these reversals were not just Johnson's doing, there were other entities and personages involved. Of course, and they were all LBJ's partners in crime, from LeMay to Dulles to E H Hunt to Brown, et al. And some of them were sandbagging Kennedy's foreign policy while he was alive e.g. the CIA in Congo. So when you write that LBJ had to do these things to "pay the piper", Johnson would have done them if there was a "piper" to pay or not. For instance, as John Newman shows, in Vietnam LBJ disagreed with Kennedy's approach from 1961. Again, evidence FOR Johnson's leadership involvement in the murder. He extorted his way onto the ticket and said (something like), "25% of presidents die in office and I'm a gambling man." Does this mean he was plotting to kill JFK that early? He sure would have loved it. Well, in Philip Nelson's opinion, probably yes. But only someone as biased and non objective as Nelson would buy into that. LBJ had practically unlimited means, motive, and the Dallas, TX opportunity.

2. I don't really follow your second point. There was an argument and strong disagreement about the treatment of Yarborough on Kennedy's Texas visit. The disagreement was not a matter of taste like the preference for chocolate or vanilla ice cream. There was no good reason for it from JBC and LBJ. RY had every reason to make a stink. There seems little doubt about that. Kennedy favored Yarborough in this disagreement. And he verbally went to bat for him. That's the heroic kind of guy we lost in JFK.

The rest of what you write, again, does not compute with me. Are you saying that Ralph Y. understood there was something more behind this disagreement besides the fact that Connally hated his guts and was out to hurt him politically in the eyes of the voters? You seem to imply that Ralph Y. somehow knew about a Texas plot presumably involving LBJ and JBC. RY surely didn't KNOW at the time, but he must have had his suspicions sometime later. He was sharp and not afraid. He never backed off witnessing: 1. smelled gunsmoke at street level; 2. heard automatic (Trans: rapid or numerous) gunfire; 2. saw Gordon Arnold hit the dirt and figured, correctly, that he was trained in combat. Can you please refer me to any primary evidence from the senator about this? I've seen him talking some in his later years, but as for references, I have trouble figuring out my own notes from yesterday. Sorry, really. As I would be interested to read it. I don't mean what someone else said about it, but what the senator himself said. The rest of what you write here, that somehow LBJ and JBC knew about Oswald, (LBJ, somewhat of a micromanager at times, and had his information tentacles out everywhere had to know about LHO, the guy, the great hero who was most fighting all these assassination attempts; JBC maybe in the dark) and he had been befriended by Wallace etc. (I make my own prima facie case about this -- too long to get into here, though I do find McClellan's conjection 'faction' reasonable)this all seems to me to be right out of Barr McClellan's fairy tale of a book. I read that volume and was flabbergasted by the stuff the guy made up. I mean do you also think Oswald was on the sixth floor firing at the motorcade? Yes, but that's a whole 'nother story, a quarter orhalf a book. In short, LHO tried to stop the murder of democracy. At the end there, he saw the fascists were going to succeed, so he made them pay a little by popping JBC twice and the windshield trim (trying to hit the obviously complicit Greer) once. From the western end of TSBD. Remember LHO's garbage rifle shot high and to the right.

It was the first fragging of the Vietnam War, and one of the few retaliations against the New Confederacy.

There were at least 6 other shots, 3 hitting JFK. At least 3 hit outside the limo, maybe 5. At least 8 gunmen, at least 5 firing. They had backups for the backups. And that's not including gunmen on Stemmons Freeway, atop Cobb Stadium and across the road, just in case. I believe there were even explosives at hand for the last-ditch fallback. Pretty weird, huh? But I have my reasons.

3. Connally's expression that morning is not evidence. Unless you can tell us what he was thinking. Again, if you can, please inform me of where this is since I missed that also. Johnny Boy ready to burst into tears or throw up, at the gala event of his life? He was thinking about the line of fire; that's just logic. Ralph Y. was beaming all day though he was being treated like garbage by his own state party.

4. I like the way you applied emphasis to the word "all" in Connally's quote. Where did you get that piece of information? From Jackie's recountings, mostly. Also, in the Z-film, around 230 I think, that long open, twisting mouth is a long LLLLLLLL. It goes on. Again, I missed that one.

5. Your comments about Nellie Connally and LBJ hunkering down on Elm Street are not borne out by the evidence. Nellie's window is the only one that's not all the way down, and hers is mostly up. The odds are 1 in 6. She's down low, that's all there is to it. Unless she was 4 feet tall, which she was not. As I have said, Robert Groden completely vitiated this argument about LBJ in his book Absolute Proof, leaving Nelson without a leg to stand on. The hunched down "listening to the radio" excuse didn't happen? (See pgs. 271-72) Nellie actually talked to JFK and commented on how appreciative the crowd was. Right. "Yew caint say Dallas doesn't luuuv (she did draw it out) yew, Mr. Prisidint." Darn right. She was relieved about all these bad vibes she had been feeling, was seeing the end in sight.

Oh, I could go into the psych implications of that statement. It's too much really. (I am sure someone like Nelson would say this was a gambit to lull him to sleep.)

And it was soon to be literally true, what she said. Because JFK replied something like, "You certainly can't." And then he was hit in the throat and used his last bit of speaking to exclaim, "My God, I'm hit!" Which Kellerman heard. And Jack never could say anything again. So that non-sympathetic witch was right.

6. The debate about the destination of the motorcade was the Trade Mart vs the Women's Center. Connally, because of his political orientation (vanilla vs. chocolate ice cream, right?), favored the former. Since he thought he could hit up his backers for more money there. (Ticket sales lagged. JBC didn't give a rat's patoot about that luncheon.) But beyond that, as Vince P shows in his book, the important point about the route being changed had nothing to do with that decision. It came the night before. And it included the dogleg. (Survivor's Guilt pgs.105-12) SS advanceman Jerry Bruno was there long before that. He was astounded by the whole thing. Bruno didn't find out until much later that when JBC made a big scene about chewing out Dave Powers or Kenny O'Donnel over the phone (from TX to the White House right when they sat down to lunch!) -- that it never happened.

That's all I can reply to now. In all the articles and posts I've been reading about the LBJ part in 11-22 these last few days, only one mentions the great Craig Zirbel. That was the CTKA article by Vasakas, Coogan, and Dragoo that you linked early in this topic.

The best about CZ's The Texas Connection (I haven't read his latest yet; didn't know about it until going through all this) is his beautiful explication and enumeration of Right-Hand Man Aided assassinations through history. That's one of the keys to LBJ's part in JFKA. It just could not have happened without at least LBJ's okay. But now you have me thinking that's all it is, was.

Nawwww. Back to reality. You know and I know that filthy devil Lyndon Baines Johnson was pushing for the murder as much as anybody, though there sure were (and are) plenty of those anybodies. Mastermind is an oxymoron in LBJ's case. But Prime Mover is not. What does your gut, informed by countless pieces of evidence, tell you? Come on, admit it.

You and Joan Mellen, and I'm seeing many of the other greats, suffer from a minor affliction -- don't conclude until you can nail the bastard to a cross in a tough court. There is such a thing as too high standards. Moderation in all things.

Roy: Because JM discounts Madeleine Brown, that seems to be end of it for JM. But what about the other ten million pieces of evidence that point at LBJ? Both circumstantial and physical.

Can you please name the ten million pieces of evidence that insinuate LBJ into the plot to kill Kennedy?

I will settle for five million if you are busy.

James,

Thanks for taking it easy on me with the five million. Your intuition is correct that I am busy. My book, due around the year 2030, is behind schedule.

(conservative figures)

- 3,060,000 needless war dead in Southeast Asia

- 500,000 " " " " Indonesia (the rottenest genocide in history)

- 500,000 " " " " Congo, Mid East, Brazil (+ Caribbean, Latin American in general) a wild guesstimate

+_______1 multi-trillion debt that never was or will be paid; US from world's creditor to world's debtor

4,060,001

How did all these massive massacres happen after Kennedy? LBJ had to pay the pipers, and that's what it cost. From the Nelson Rockefeller-John McCloy-Allen Dulles-Claire Booth Luce-H L Hunt types to the mechanics pumping out Bell helicopters. They had LBJ over enough barrels to fill a distillery. They didn't have to send him a telegram that said, "Give us what we want so you can continue doing what you want, whatever the inferno that is." And they all wanted pretty much the same thing, robbing and killing the workingman for fun and profit.

Less than half of November 22 --

1 How much trouble for LBJ to sleep on AF2 from Houston to Ft. Worth, and be fresh as a daisy for a midnight rendezvous at Murchison's? Still he had some dark bags under his hooded eyes that day.

1 The argument over the seating for the parade, as beautifully excused in the CTKA article by Vazakas, Coogan, and Dragoo, linked in your comment #43. [Anything worked on by Phil Dragoo could not possibly be any more efficient, organized, colorful, clear. Talk about economy of language! And V V and S C are no slouches. It's easy to see why that article is so highly rated.] BUTTTTTTTTTTT -- what circular logic, what ad hoc ergo propter hoc! Mrs. Yarborough is not even invited to dinner at the Governor's Mansion, and Connally seats Ralph, senior U. S. Senator from Texas, at the children's table. But "the feud", RY (only Southern Senator to vote for every post WW2 civil rights bill) vs. JBC and LBJ is a false equality. When RY was p.o.ed at the Malevolent Duo, he had plenty of good reason. Vice versa, mysterious motives and ulterior motives. You bet because RY could smell a rat, and the Prince and King Rat knew it. IMHO, not only did JBC and LBJ know it was highly dangerous to be in X-100, they knew about this wild card on the loose named Lee Harvey Oswald. Who had been befriended by "fellow-traveler" Mac Wallace, who had his own set of beefs against John Con. (Both had been student union president at UT years apart, but oh how different their success rate had been after college.)

1 Look at John Con's face and demeanor that morning. That's one scared Texan. He doesn't know whether to faint, scream or load his diaper.

1 Textbook example of "excited utterance" (blurted in a scary situation before someone has time to think and couch his reaction) -- John Con screaming, "Oh no no no, THEY are going to KILL us ALLLLLLL!" Jackie was always amazed at the inordinate volume and suddenness of this.

1 Can anyone deny that LBJ owned JBC, had him on a leash? Same JBC who demanded the route and destination, used idiotic subterfuges (found out later, but excused again) to get his (LBJ's) way.

1 Nellie Connally hunkering down in the car right before they hit the Kill Zone. Nothing like LBJ but still...

1 Nellie repeatedly telling JBC, "Hush." She knew he could accidentally let the cat out of the bag. She was a piece of work herself, hard-hearted progeny of bushwhacker stock. She'd had the head of her eldest child Kathleen (an almighty Southern woman!) half blown off by a shotgun. In Florida, sort of opposite analogous to the de Mohrenschildt assassination. And teenaged Kathleen Connally's white-trash husband got away with it, in true Southern white-trash, dirt-bag fashion. So poor, multi-suffering Nellie Connally had no sympathy for anyone else. (Probably not even her husband who stole so hard for her, went to prison in the early 1980s owing an eighth of a BILLION dollars) "They" had taken her slaves, her right as a superior Southern woman. And "they" had taken her first-born daughter.

Jim D., let me tell you a secret -- they're all white trash. It may be getting somewhat better (but it's probably too late), but the American South in general, and Texas in particular, and Dallas in most particular, is the world's depository of murderous, work-allergic, back-shooting human offal.

Okay, Jim, you got me for now. This is harder than I thought. That's only 4,060,008 pieces of evidence that LBJ was Prime Mover in JFKA. A couple more so I can round it up to 4,060,010:

Johnson on AF-One. Why didn't he take his own plane that had all his stuff on it? (Answer: He wanted to keep an eye on "the enemy" who had been so good to him, though not good enough for Texas Pure D White Trash.) Last of all for now, the wink from cancerous Albert "Winky" Thomas.

This is not an exhaustive list. Far from it. A good exercise, it's making me think.

Vis a vis Southeast Asia now:

President Obama, during his 9-day tour of Asia, visited LAOS, the only U.S. president to do so. While there he promised $90 Million toward cleaning up the unexploded ordnance (UXO) that litters the landscape and lurks just barely beneath the surface. Over 40 years ago we dropped 2 million tons of bombs on Laos, about a quarter of the SE Asia total. We had the Plain of Jars, the world's most fertile farmland, looking like the surface of the moon for a while there.

In the time between Election 1960 and Inauguration, Ike pushed hardest for troops into Laos. Jack said, "What the ___? He had eight years to invade Laos and he didn't do it. Why now? Why me?" If only he'd seen it the same way about the bum's rush to the Bay of Pigs...

Estimates put those killed by these bombs going off by a farmer's plow or by a brush-clearing fire at at least 20,000 and as many as 50,000. The number of those permanently injured were at least 3 times the killed.

What yaks me is that there has been practically nothing about this in electronic or print media. If you blinked you missed it. And I can find practically nothing on the web about it, the particulars that is.

Obama is the political twin of Kennedy. It's no coincidence that Caroline Kennedy is Ambassador to Japan right now, when BHO was over there. Thank goodness for BHO AND JFK. Grousers who point out the specks in their eyes (BHO - Libya, drones; JFK - Bay of Pigs, MIC extravagance) should remember --1) You have to play with the hand you're dealt; 2) Only God is perfect. With species homo sapiens, you have to judge a leader's success COMPARED to others in similar situations, and especially the Trends before and after.

(Edited 9-20-16 for amount promised by BHO -- $90 Million -- first full sentence)

Doug,

You are a treasure of current important stuff. Thanks so much for that interview of Joan Mellen by Len Osanic, maybe the most knowledgeable interviewer today. Why is it that non-American English-speakers (Canucks, Brits, Aussies) seem to have the best big picture take on Americans?

Early in the interview JM mentions that Robert Caro does not mention either Malcolm Wallace or Billy Sol Estes in his LBJ series; neither appears in any of the indexes. So who walks up to Caro after a talk on his last book-tour and asks him about Mac Wallace? Doug Caddy, who gives RC his card and welcomes him to contact him. Nearly needless to say, DC never heard from RC, and probably still hasn't, right, Doug? Did I get this right -- that Caro claims never to have heard of Mac Wallace?!?!

Ms. Mellen, honest to a fault, admits that she had never heard (or had forgotten) about USS Liberty and the Israeli terrorist attack upon it in early June 1967 during the Six Days War. (Curiously that is a year to the day before RFK assassination.) And that she was told (or reminded) about the Liberty by arch anti-LBJ researcher Robert Morrow. And she went all out researching the Liberty atrocity and is writing a book about it. And Osanic knew so much big stuff about it, off the cuff. Most important to me, he reminded me that it was a Russian trawler in the area that saved Liberty, just by being there, hence witness if the Israeli military kept hitting it with torpedoes, napalm and machine gun fire. Funny to note: Liberty's captain refused the Russians' offer of aid. They waited quite a while to be rescued by the pokey Americans. Russia has come to the aid of America's better angels many times in our short history.

Something I don't get:

That Joan Mellen doesn't think that Lyin' Lyndon was ALL OVER the assassination. Because JM discounts Madeleine Brown, that seems to be end of it for JM. But what about the other ten million pieces of evidence that point at LBJ? Both circumstantial and physical. It's beyond me. This is a problem in JFKA research. If one lone author thinks he/she can't take it to a jury and PROVE beyond an unreasonable doubt...

I read the book review suggested by James DiEugenio, Joseph Green's "A Texan Takes a Look at Nelson," which is uniformly against the thesis of LBJ as Mastermind of JFKA. Okay, how about Prime Mover, as suggested by an administrator at Deep Politics Forum? And as I've been suggesting for years. Was anyone pushing for the coup more than Lyndon?

I don't understand how Mellen, knowing how rotten to the core was LBJ and all the circumstances IN the robber baron state of Texas....

LBJ trying to change the seat arrangements at the last minute, etc. ad infinitum. Mellen knows well how FEARED was LBJ and his criminal machine. That's a large part of the interview.

She does have something I've never seen or heard before: that 11-22-63 Mac Wallace was definitely in California at his job with Ling Electronics. I'll have to check it out, courtroom style.

Doug:

Proving that Marshall's death was not a suicide, that does not ipso facto prove that somehow LBJ was behind it, as much as Philip Nelson would like us to think such was the case.

Nelson is the kind of author who is praised by people like Fetzer, who said his first book was comparable to Jim Douglass' JFK and the Unspeakable, which is one of the most absurd comments I have heard of late in appraisals of Kennedy assassination books. Nelson was wrong about LBJ ducking down prior to the shots, as shown by Groden in Absolute Proof and it appears he was wrong about this fingerprint match also. We shall see when Mellen's book becomes available to all for review.

(Above quote is from Jim DiE, #8 of this topic)

Most highly esteemed Jim DiEugenio-san,

(I tried to put this in my previous post, but...computer skills of a monkey, etc...prevented me)

Please, I'm dying to know, what about Phillip E. Nelson's masterpiece, Mastermind, bugs you. There must be, literally, a million pieces of info in there. It's a completely different animal from Jim Douglass' Unspeakable. PEN's opus is wonderfully sourced, and the scope of it, there's nothing like it. Unspeakable is more about the big picture, a whole different purview and subject.

Jim D paragraph 1: LBJ not behind Marshall death?! HM investigating Billie Sol Estes, one of LBJ's many crooks and lackeys, etc. etc. LBJ scared to death that his criminal house of cards might be about to catch a breeze, etc, etc. I mean it just goes on. Does ANYone doubt......

Jim D. Paragraph 2: LBJ ducking down before the shooting starts. First, this is one tiny detail that, if wrong, is the size of a gnat on the planet Jupiter for reason to impeach the entire work. Two, EVERYone says LBJ was playing that farce "listening to Youngblood's radio" right there at the end. LBJ WAS hunkering down. So what if for one snapshot (what, 1/40th of a second?) if LBJ was merely out of frame or blocked, as Groden showed?

I sure wouldn't want you to take much time answering my question, which may be a dumb one. (I don't see how you do what you do on all the forums, books, conferences, etc. Man, i mean it knocks me out.) Just a link to a review or something. From anybody is fine with me. Ever since I've seen the JFKA computer community of researchers, I have never understood why Nelson seems to get such short shrift. I suspect that maybe it's because he says so much, that there are so many targets to aim at for "errors," something I see a lot of in the community. In case you can't tell, I admire and appreciate both DiEugenio and Nelson more than my poor vocab can say. But it's like Nelson and Douglass, comparing lobster and chocolate eclairs. They're both delicious. And so is the hard-shell crab, DiEugenio.

To all,

The Nathan Darby analysis of the previously unmatched left pinkie print on a box in "the sniper nest" is NOT the end-all and be-all of Mac Wallace: 1.) being LBJ's go-to murderer-for-hire, OR 2.) being in AND around TSBD when the American Republic went the way of the dodo.

1.) The 8 murders for LBJ is a minimal number. When MW walked away from the Kinzer murder, he was in Johnson-Connally's pocket. In this thread, someone grudgingly admits "Yeah, Henry Marshall was probably not suicide." Ya think?! Shot himself five times with a bolt-action rifle, now that's perseverance! Bruised his head so badly like he'd been hit with a baseball bat, tough dude to be able to do that to himself! AND he had all the signs of car exhaust poisoning, the Mac Wallace special treatment. And then a couple of you said, OK it was probably murder, but how do we know it was good ol' MW? Just one tidbit about the case -- the next day, MW went back to the same store where he'd asked for directions to the HENRY MARSHALL FARM the day before, and told the guy, "Hey, y'know, I didn't really need directions to the HENRY MARSHALL FARM yesterday cuz I didn't go out there." How's that for cool? Puts a neon sign on his head. More than likely, the store-owner would've forgotten what MW looked like if he didn't go back to the SAME PLACE the NEXT DAY.

2.) At least five people saw Mac Wallace or his twin brother in and around TSBD acting suspiciously. Corpulent, balding dark hair, horn-rim glasses, tweedy jacket. Richard Carr from across Dealey, then within a block of TSBD when he walked over to check things out. A couple prisoners in the County Jail looked right at him on the sixth floor. A lady in the street saw him. A couple police saw him out the back of TSBD posing as one of the many phony SSAs.

Doug,

Thanks for that brief video from Michael Parenti, under 7 minutes. MP always has good humor. The laughter in the audience sounds like an old Mort Sahl show. That old timey Italian Harlem incredulity.

I credit Parenti with giving me a sort of Rosetta Stone to the assassinations of the 1960s. Five or six years ago, I saw him on C-Span talking about his book The Assassination of Julius Caesar. My degree is in Classical Greek(how's that for practical?) and I wanted a break from JFKA (which bug bit me hard summer of 2005), so I ran out and got it. Manna from heaven. Turns out that Caesar was for the people to an incredible degree, which is dangerous for such a leader AND such a people. It may be a flaw in the entire human species since the formation of states that the wealthy of the right-wing never has any problem finding desperate toadies who are capable of any deed, in transliterated Greek, panourgoi.

Before Julius there was the much-neglected Ephialtes in Athens. After the Persian Wars, when the common man was more than key and he knew it, they elected more and more progressive archons. Mid 5th century BCE and they had the greatest of them all, Ephialtes, heir to the best heritage of the likes of Solon a century earlier. So of course he was assassinated in a fog-of-crime type confusion where no one was ever tried. I say it was the followers of Pericles, much like LBJ. Athens went downhill immediately. Perpetual wars (the Peloponnesian), rampant disease (The Plague, much like our America being alone in the developed world without universal health care), and back-breaking debt.

I don't think Parenti ever says it explicitly, but Julius Caesar, for his time, was a carbon-copy of John Fitzgerald Kennedy. They both evolved their whole lives, always for the better. That's why both were so hated by the oligarchs, who could make claims that they were betrayed because their chief "changed" on them (boo-hoo), hence "betrayed" them. Caesar's policies toward debt especially earned him hatred from the fortunate. So he had to go the way of the Gracchi brothers.

There are a ton of Michael Parenti lectures on video. I'm rediscovering him. Thanks, Doug.