Denny Zartman

I’ve read aspects of the Roscoe White story in bits and pieces throughout the years, and never gave it much serious thought. A few nights ago I watched this video “Evidence Of Revision – JFK Assassination Rarities” on YouTube. It put some pieces together in a startling way, and I’m doing some more research into it. I’m curious as to what others here think, and if anyone knows of any further research.

The section concerning Roscoe White is between 16:00 and 35:35.

I also consulted Livingstone’s “High Treason 2” and the revised version of Marrs’s “Crossfire” for more information. From my research, these seem to be many of the facts:

Geneva White – Roscoe’s wife

1. Worked for Jack Ruby
2. Says she confirms existence of Roscoe’s diary
3. Says she overheard Ruby and Roscoe planning to kill JFK
4. Owned an alternate version of the backyard photo of Oswald

Ricky White – Roscoe’s son

1. Says Roscoe’s diary existed and contained information about Roscoe’s role in the JFK assassination
2. Says the FBI absconded with the diary
3. Has copies of alleged CIA cables obliquely referring to the assassination

Reverend Jack Shaw

1. Says he took deathbed confession from Roscoe
2. Says he audio taped Geneva’s recounting of her experiences
3. Says he also had a CIA affiliation?

Other witnesses of unknown name and number

1. Recall seeing Roscoe’s diary

Roscoe White

1. Knowledgeable about photography? Was, or was about to become, a police photographer?
2. Joined Dallas PD early October 1963 (a little over a week before Oswald got his job at the TSBD)
3. Former Marine as was Oswald, sailed on the same ship as Oswald going to Japan
4. Marine-era photo of Oswald and a man with bump on right wrist and face that resembles Roscoe White
5. Mysterious death in an explosion, allegedly saw someone leaving the scene just prior
6. Allegedly gave deathbed confession to Rev. Jack Shaw
7. Chin resembles chin on Oswald’s backyard photograph
8. Posture resembles posture on Oswald’s backyard photograph
9. Bump on right wrist resembles bump on Oswald’s right wrist in the backyard photograph

-

Roscoe’s alleged diary reportedly has a brief description of what he did that day, from Ricky White’s memory. It allegedly indicated that Roscoe shot from the grassy knoll and rode with Tippit to pick up Oswald. Roscoe tried to get Tippit to drive Oswald to Redbird airport. When Tippit balked and suspected Roscoe’s and Oswald’s involvement with the reports coming in about JFK, Roscoe had to kill Tippit.

The weird thing is, this seems to explain some things. Acquilla Clemons described seeing two people at the scene of Tippit’s killing (though the physical description of one of them doesn’t seem to match either Oswald or Roscoe.) And, if Roscoe was the shooter on the grassy knoll dressed in a policeman's uniform, then that appears to explain Badgeman. (For the record, I am agnostic on Badgeman's existence.) I believe Tippit had some clothes hanging in the back of his police car, if I recall correctly. Roscoe could have changed out of his policeman's uniform and into street clothes after giving the signal by honking outside Oswald's rooming house. I believe Earlene Roberts said she saw two policemen in the police car honking outside,

So, normally I would be able to discount a lot of this. I did discount a lot of it when I heard just bits and pieces.

The matching chin doesn’t prove anything, but they do match. The posture doesn’t prove anything, yet it too matches the backyard photograph.

The bump on the wrist, however, can’t easily be dismissed. If Roscoe was previously knowledgeable about photography, that also seems quite suspicious. 

The statements of Rev. Jack Shaw, while not conclusive, are compelling, in my opinion. I'd like to know more about his tapes of Geneva and what became of them.

The fact that Geneva worked for Ruby is certainly quite a coincidence and difficult to write off as happenstance. And that Roscoe joined the Dallas police department less than two months before the assassination makes me very suspicious.

But the one thing that seems to be the biggest is that the White family owned an alternate pose of the backyard photograph. A pose that was re-created by investigators PRIOR to its official discovery. I don’t know how that ownership of that alternate photo could be anything but damning. You’d have to ignore all of the other “coincidences” and believe that Roscoe was just a random cop that just happened, by another coincidence, to be in a position to steal an important and incriminating piece of evidence in the crime of the century, wouldn’t you?

If others believe a UFO discussion is relevant, of course I have no choice but to defer to them. Obviously the moderators here agree that this subject is appropriate for discussion. I'm glad that others can find relevance in the subject and explain why they find it relevant. Certainly the debate over "fake news" and the current climate of conspiracy theories deserves further attention.

This is just my opinion: When I'm doing research on the JFK assassination and I see a source that is also featuring materials on UFO's, 9-11, Illuminati, chemtrails, the Bermuda Triangle, Sandy Hook, the Boston bombing, ect. I tend to shy away from using that source. That's just me.

If I were a visitor to this forum that knew little to nothing on the JFK assassination and I saw members seriously entertaining the concept of a base on the dark side of the moon, my initial reaction would be unfavorable. Indeed, in my mind, it would confirm negative stereotypes of JFK assassination researchers as a group.

Perhaps I would be wrong to have that reaction, but I have to be honest, that would be my first impression. These other subjects, whether or not they have merit, I would reflexively consider to be tangential to the main subject. Instead of using that source as a resource for reliable information, I would seek out a source that I believed had the intellectual rigor to stay focused on their stated main topic of interest. (I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone here who is discussing UFO's. I'm just trying to be honest in describing what would be my first reaction to an online source mixing the JFK assassination with certain other subjects.)

Secondly, I don't believe that a UFO discussion on a non-UFO forum does intellectual justice to the UFO discussion. As a sub-topic, by its very nature it will be examined and debated in less detail than the main topic.

It seems that many people automatically take UFO to mean "little green men in flying saucers." An unidentified flying object is any object flying through the air that can't be identified. To conflate sightings of unidentified aircraft with "JFK was about to expose ET's and that's why he was killed" is too big a leap of logic for me personally. (I know no one here is saying that was the reason, I'm just using that as an example of how a truly thorough and thoughtful discussion on the subject of UFO's would require examining multiple complex aspects and a long historical record that is probably just as filled with false leads and intentional disinformation as the JFK assassination is, in my opinion, beyond the scope of this forum.)

Picking through the the disinformation around the JFK assassination to find the truth is difficult enough without adding a superficial examination of UFO's.

Again, these are only my opinions. Others disagree, and I accept that.

In my opinion this topic should be in a different section of the education forum, since I believe that it's not relevant to JFK assassination research.

Hi everyone,

I'm making hard copies of rare essays and articles, and today I printed out Raymond Marcus's "The Bastard Bullet" from a PDF I found online (and can't remember where right now.)

Anyway, in reviewing it, I see that the PDF seems to be missing pages 36 and 37. Also, the main text ends mid-sentence on page 67.

I was wondering if anyone happens to know of a copy online that has the missing pages or of any other way I could obtain them.

I'm also curious if it was ever officially published, and what people think of the work in general.

Thanks very much!

I've never seen the uncropped photo before. That's very interesting. What information is it revealing?

I listened to the podcast last night. It was very thorough and gave a great overview of the entire subject, which isn't easy to do. There were subjects that popped up in my mind while listening, and I was pleasantly surprised when they came up as topics of conversation later.

It's a great book. I got a copy last year and read it for the first time. Excellent organization makes it very handy when looking up a particular fact.

I'm amazed at those books on that list. I've been looking for a few of them and was disappointed that they were out of print. I'm excited to be able to read them now. Thanks very much for sharing that link.

Thank you for the references. Much appreciated!

Thank you for sharing the link. I will listen to it soon.

On 11/19/2017 at 3:23 AM, James DiEugenio said:

My God, what do you call the recovery by the FBI of a 7.65 Mauser shell in Dealey Plaza and the three reports of the rifle being a Mauser in the Commission volumes?  

And I agree that they should have said something like, yep LHO was really in a panic to get away.  He walked toward the bus station about four blocks away to get on a bus going back to the scene of the crime.  That bus stopped in traffic and he got off in the Plaza.  He then hailed a cab, but then offered the cab to an older lady first. Public transportation to beat a murder charge.

And BTW, they did not use the other way to counter that: Roger Craig and Marvin Robinson.   What made that hurt was this: the guy who made that Nash Rambler escape famous was sitting at the defense table: TInk Thompson. 

I hate to interrupt, but the discovery of Mauser shell in Dealey Plaza is one detail I don't remember hearing before. If I may ask, what are the best resources to use to read more about that?

And I agree totally about Oswald's "getaway." It seems incredible to me that he could sneak in a rifle and not a handgun. That he would have no plan at all for a getaway simply doesn't pass the smell test, in my opinion.

19 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

 

.

.

48 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

http://nypost.com/2017/10/27/unsealed-docs-reveal-kgb-thought-lbj-could-have-been-behind-jfk-assassination/

Very interesting. Could it be continued on the next file?

 

I saw "Jackie" earlier today. Portman's performance was decent, and the production value was okay at times, but I thought the film was bad. It jumps back and forth in time and not in a cohesive way that serves the story. It's sometimes difficult to tell the location and the time period from scene to scene. The handheld camera was tiresome, and there were so many extreme closeups that it made the film feel claustrophobic.

It didn't seem to have much of a tale to tell, which is weird. It's the story of a prominent woman that went through serious trauma and planned a funeral. The movie doesn't go much beyond that. There was no way to really relate to Jackie as a person.

The actor playing JFK looked great and seemed to do a good job of acting, although his role is miniscule. Peter Sarsgaard was playing RFK. Sarsgaard is one of my least favorite actors. His eyes are so lifeless, and his expression makes him look constantly bored or tired. There's not much to the role of RFK. There's no mention of Cuban CIA plots against Castro that possibly was turned back on JFK, and certainly no Jackie/Robert romantic sub-plot.

The film doesn't dwell on much conspiracy issues. It leaves conspiracy as the last impression when dealing with the subject, so I guess that it could be considered as leaning toward that viewpoint. Jackie initially bemoans the fact that JFK's killing was just some lone Communist nut, but after Oswald is killed, she berates RFK for letting her and her kids go out in public and putting them in possible danger. Since Ruby was immediately captured, I think it can be inferred that she was referring to other conspirators still on the loose. But, again, the subject of conspiracy is minimal compared to the number of scenes featuring Portman wandering the hallways in shock.

The assassination sequence itself is very short and doesn't seem to give any opinion on the number of shots. JFK is seen initially clutching his neck, and then the headshot follows. The head wound depicted seemed to be on the right side of the head above the ear, what I understand is the temporal region.

Thanks, Douglas!

On ‎11‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 9:16 AM, Michael Walton said:

As for the bloody trail, back to the TSBD, I believe that was a piece of Kennedy's head that was carried from the road into or near the building.  Why the guy picked it up and went there of all places is beyond me.  This may also have been the piece that Jackie might have been reaching for when she climbed out of the car. His statement, too, confirms the mass confusion of what was going on seconds after the shots.  People were running around like chickens with their heads cut off and the Bad Guys were certainly banking on this, of people watching the motorcade calmly and least expecting something like this happening.

Thanks for the response, Michael. I might have to disagree with one part of your characterization of the mass confusion. Dark Complected Man and Umbrella Man were definitely not running around in confused panic.

That's an interesting theory about the blood trail, but it still seems to leave so many unanswered questions.

If the red stuff on the ground was a blood trail left from a head fragment, who 1. also saw the red fluid on the ground and later 2. investigated it and identified it as snow cone flavoring, and 3. told Jean Hill that it was snow cone flavoring?

I seem to remember a story of a bone fragment being found in Dealey Plaza by someone who initially doubted it was a bone fragment from JFK because it specifically did not have flesh or blood on it. (Though I also seem to understand that the Harper fragment had part of the scalp and hairline still on it.)

Who initially reported that a Secret Service agent was also shot during the JFK assassination? When was this story officially retracted and who retracted it, if anyone?

What about A. J. Millican's statement abut seeing someone hit in the foot or leg?

And what about Bertha Lozano's statements? I can't imagine that some other V.I.P. was in Dallas on November 22 and sustained an injury that was bleeding to such a degree that a hematologist and a blood technician were apparently summoned. If so, why the need to keep it secret with no name being put on the record or even a patient number assigned?

Hello everyone,

Reading through Vince Palamara's "JFK - From Parkland To Bethesda" revealed a tiny bit of information that triggered my memories of three Dealey Plaza witness stories.

A. J. Millican:

"A man standing on the South side of Elm Street was either hit in the foot or the ankle and fell down."

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=504

Mal Couch:

“I started toward the building where I had seen the rifle in the window. Then I saw something very weird. There was a trail of blood from the spot where the shooting occurred to the entrance of the Texas School Book Depository. I pointed it out to a man with me."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/couch.htm

Jean Hill:

"...I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink...when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him."...When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around..."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_j.htm

Now, here is the relevant quote from "JFK - From Parkland To Bethesda" Page 46, regarding a statement made by Parkland Hospital witness #38. Nurse Bertha L. Lozano:

"A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a private patient who was bleeding... Blood technicians came to ask me who 'Mr. X' was who did not have an E. R. number. Hematology also came with the same problem and was told the same thing."

We're all familiar with the initial (and assumed to be erroneous) news reports that indicated a Secret Service man was also shot and/or killed in Dealey Plaza during the assassination of John Kennedy.

Might that report of a Secret Service man being shot and the Millican, Couch, Hill, and Lozano's statements be connected in some way?.

Thanks

Okay, the Parkland breakdown is complete. I edited my above post, and right now (Nov. 12, 2016) has the first revised and complete version. I did my best to catch any errors, but I'm sure there are some. Hopefully, I can now appreciate a fraction of the extraordinary effort it takes to do serious research and write a book like this. It was quite difficult to assemble and analyze the information, then try and comb through it for errors and make it somewhat comprehensible. I may have to take a little break before analyzing Bethesda. I'd also like to hear what people think of the analysis, and if they think I should be doing anything different.

I'd love to hear anyone's feedback or criticism. Have I analyzed the relevant information? Are there other ways the information should be broken down in order to learn more?

Anyway, doing this analysis, I have learned a tremendous amount already, like that three of the doctors that worked on Connally are on record as doubting the single bullet theory. That was quite interesting. There are also many fascinating nuggets of information that I hope to explore in other threads on this forum. Thank for writing the book, Vince. I'm sure it will be a valuable resource for research for many years to come.

It’s an excellent book, Vince. I’ve already dog-eared and marked it up as much as any JFK book I own, and likely more.

I had been working a little on breaking down some of the Dealey Plaza witness testimony, so I really appreciate the opportunity to do similar research regarding the medical witnesses. Your book seems to the best resource for complete guidance on that topic.

When trying to investigate the JFK assassination as a crime, I feel the need to step back and try to see the big picture if possible. So many books reference witnesses with “some say”, “many say”, “most say” and the like. There’s always part of me that wonders exactly how many witnesses say X or Y or Z, and if it’s even possible to calculate those numbers.

REVISED and UPDATED Nov 12, 2016

Here is my informal analysis of information from all the 175 people listed in section one “Parkland” of the book “JFK – From Parkland To Bethesda.”

This list should comprise all known individuals who were, in Vince’s words “The doctors, nurses, and sundry other people who were in some way connected to the emergency treatment of President Kennedy in Dallas Texas on November 22, 1963”

Many names have no useful information regarding JFK’s wounds, so I have later tried to break down into numbers the opinions of those who did comment on the location of specific injuries.

There is occasional difficulty in adding things up because some witnesses later went on to change their stories. Others describe multiple wounds and wounds in different areas of the head.

This analysis focuses primarily on the location(s) and nature of wounds on Kennedy’s skull and anterior neck.

These are the 5 characteristics that I tried to spotlight:

Was there a head wound located in the occipital area (lower back of the skull) or the occipital parietal (referred to here as “Occipital right”, meaning the right side of the occipital area including some of the adjoining parietal area)?

Was the wound in the temporal (the right side of the skull over the ear)?

Was the head wound tangential (bullet striking the side, entering and exiting in the same wound)?

Did the anterior neck wound (front of the throat just below Adam’s apple) have the appearance of an entrance or exit wound?

Was cerebellum (brain from the lower back of the skull) seen?

If there is no record of statements or expressed opinion on these six specific questions, I’ve noted “no info.” (That shouldn’t be interpreted as saying those labeled “no info” don’t have useful information on other subjects of interest.)

I tried to minimize errors as much as possible, but I’m sure there are some. If anyone spots any, please let me know and I’ll correct them.

The numbering of names on these following lists do NOT correspond to the numbering of names in the book.

-

BASIC INDEX OF NAMES, OCCUPATIONS (when applicable), AND OBSERVATIONS

DOCTORS

1. Clark, Dr. William Kemp – Chief neurosurgeon: Occipital right, throat wound entrance, saw cerebellum possible tangential
2. Perry, Dr. Malcolm Oliver – Attending surgeon: Occipital right, throat wound entrance, saw cerebellum, possible tangential
3. McClelland, Dr. Robert Nelson – Attending surgeon: Occipital right, throat wound entrance, believes in frontal shot
4. Jenkins, Dr. Marion Thomas – Chief Anesthesiologist: Temporal, Occipital right then later changed story, throat wound entrance, tangential, saw cerebellum then later changed story
5. Carrico, Dr. Charles James – Resident Surgeon: Occipital right, later changed story to top right, throat wound entrance, saw cerebellum
6. Jones, Dr. Ronald Coy - Chief Resident Surgeon: Occipital right, throat wound entrance
7. Akin, Dr. Gene Coleman (aka Solomon Ben Israel) - Resident Anesthesiologist: Occipital right, tangential, throat wound entrance
8. Peters, Dr. Paul Conrad – Urologist: Occipital, Occipital right, throat wound entrance, saw cerebellum
9. Crenshaw, Dr. Charles A. – Resident Surgeon: Occipital right, throat wound entrance, saw cerebellum
10. Baxter, Dr. Charles Rufus – Attending Surgeon: Temporal, occipital right, tangential, waffled on throat wound entrance, said head wound was so far in the back as not to be visible from looking at JFK’s head from the front
11. Grossman, Dr. Robert G. – Resident Neurosurgeon: Reported seeing TWO WOUNDS – One on temporal and a second wound on occipital, also described a skin flap on right side of head
12. Dulany, Dr. Richard Brooks – Resident Surgeon: Occipital, couldn’t see much until head was picked up, later indicated wound was on the top rear of JFK’s head
13. Giesecke, Dr. Adolph Hartung, Jr. – Anesthesiologist: Only saw JFK briefly before moving to Governor John Connally. Describes the side of JFK’s head gone, but says it was the left-hand side. Later admitted error. Occipital but later changed position.
14. Bashour, Dr. Fouad A. – Chief Cardiologist: Occipital
15. Curtis, Dr. Don Teel – Resident Oral Surgeon: Temporal, later tangential and occipital right, thought head wound was an exit wound
16. Williams, Dr. Phillip Earle – Intern:  Occipital right, saw cerebellum
17. Hunt, Dr. Jackie Hansen – Anesthesiologist: Did not see back of head but heard occipital wound described, specifically did NOT see a temporal wound
18. Zedlitz, Dr. William H. – Resident Surgeon: Occipital right, describes throat wound as “small”
19. Stewart, David – Surgeon: Occipital right, describes entry wound in the left front of JFK’s head and the rear wound as one of exit
20. Duke, Dr. James: Occipital
21. Harper, Dr. Jack C.: Occipital (based on examination of Harper fragment)
22. Cairns, Dr. A. B.: Occipital (based on examination of Harper fragment)
23. Noteboom, Dr. Gerard: Occipital (based on examination of Harper fragment)
24. Goldstritch, Dr. Joe D.: Throat wound entrance
25. Salyer, Dr. Kenneth Everett – Resident Surgeon: Temporal, though Everett seems to viewed JFK from JFK’s left side only
26. Midgett, Dr. William – OBGYN Resident: Temporal
27. Shaw, Dr. Robert Roeder: Throat wound entrance
28. Porto, Dr. Lito: Left temple entry wound
29. White, Dr. Martin G. – Resident Surgeon: No specific references to wounds except did not see V cut above JFK’s right eye
30. Burkley, Dr. / Admiral George Gregory - JFK’s Physician: Seemed to indicate the bullet entered JFK’s right temple, no other specific descriptions of wounds
31. Seldin, Dr. Donald W. – Chief Internist: Seems to agree with official rear shot story while simultaneously saying JFK was hit in the forehead
32. Rose, Dr. Earl Forrest – Dallas County Medical Examiner: Seems to disagree with location of head wound as described in JFK’s official autopsy report
33. Gregory, Dr. Charles Francis: No info
34. Shires, Dr. George Thomas: No info
35. Nelson, Dr. John – Pediatric Resident: No info
36. Stembridge, Vernon – Chief of Surgical Pathology: No info
37. Stewart, Sidney C. – Resident Pathologist: No info
38. Holcomb, Dr. Luther: No info
39. Jackson, Dr. Donald: No info
40. LeMaistre, Dr. C. A.: No info
41. Pannill, Dr. Carter: No info
42. Pepper, Chaplain / Dr. Ken: No info
43. Gustafson, Dr. Gerry: No info
44. McGaw, Dr.: No info
45. Garvey, Dr. J: No info
46. Guy, Dr.: No info
47. Mebane, Dr. David: No info
48. Boland, Dr. James: No info
49. Patman, Dr. Ralph Don: No info
50. Coln, Dr. Dale: No info
51. Risk, Dr. William: No info
52. Spier, Dr. Curtis: No info
53. Gill, Dr. A. J.: No info
54. Baker, Dr. Deuon: No info
55. Reynolds, Dr. Jack: No info
56. Rogers, Dr. Doyle: No info
57. Pollock, Dr. Harlan: No info
58. Osborne, Dr. William: No info
59. Parker, Dr. John: No info

NURSES

1. Hutton, Patricia B.: Occipital, low on head, observed no temporal wounds
2. Bell, Audrey N.: Occipital, observed no temporal wounds
3. Bowron, Diana Hamilton: Occipital, throat wound entrance
4. Hinchliffe, Margaret M.: Occipital, throat wound entrance
5. Nelson, Doris Mae – Chief Supervising Nurse: Occipital Right
6. Lozano, Bertha L.:  No info, REFERENCES A PRIVATE PATIENT THAT WAS BLEEDING
7. Standridge, Ruth Jeanette - Head Nurse : No info
8. Farrington, Bertha: No info
9. Lennon, Sally: No info
10. Watkins, C.: No info
11. Shelby, Faye Dean: No info
12. Molden, Eleanor: No info
13. Wright-Good, Elizabeth L. – Nursing Service Director: No info
14. Settles, Sally: No info
15. Schrader, Pat: No info
16. Stravapolous, Mrs. – Head Nurse: No info
17. Burkett: No info
18. Oliver: No info
19. Deming: No info
20. Johnson: No info
21. Lunsford: No info
22. Simpson: No info
23. Rutherford: No info
24. J. D.: No info

MISC:

1. Ward, Theran - Justice of the Peace: Occipital right
2. Rike, Aubrey L. – Asst. Undertaker: Occipital right
3. Wright, Milton T. Jr. – Texas Highway Patrolman: Occipital right, though seems to later include temporal (and states wound was on the left side)
4. Stamps, Roy – Fort Worth Newsman: Occipital
5. Willie, Donna: Throat wound entrance
6. Kennedy, Jaqueline – First Lady: Top of head
7. Huber, Oscar L. – Priest: Described wound over JFK’s left eye
8. Kantor, Seth – Scripps-Howard Reporter: Entry wound in right temple (though unclear if he witnessed this or was told)
9. Jacks, Hurchel D. – Texas State Highway Patrolman: Temporal
10. Powers, David F. – JFK Aide: Top of head, top parietal
11. Kilduff, Malcolm – Assistant Press Secretary: Temporal, frontal, (and states wound was on the left side)
12. Huggins, Hugh (aka Howell, Hugh) – Marine / Undercover CIA – Left temple entry wound, 2 temporal
13. Wright, O. P. – Chief Of Security: : No info, apparently picked up a bullet that was not CE 399
14. Sanders, David – Orderly: No info
15. Wester, Jane Carolyn – Operating Room Assistant Supervisor: No info
16. Lumpkin, Era – Aide: No info
17. Randall, Shirley – Aide: No info
18. Majors, Rosa M. – Aide: No info
19. Dunn, Tommy – Orderly: No info
20. Richards, Joe – Orderly: No info
21. Gerloff, Charles D. – Security Officer: No info
22. Price, Charles Jack – Administrator: : No info
23. Cabluck, Jarrold – Ft. Worth Star-Telegram Photographer: No info
24. Cain, Thomas – Priest: No info
25. Thompson, James – Priest: No info
26. O’Neal, Vernon B. – Undertaker: No info
27. McGuire, Dennis – Asst. Undertaker: No info
28. Kinney, Samuel A. – Secret Service Agent: No info
29. Rich, Joe Henry – Texas Highway Patrolman: No info
30. Landregan, Steve – Parkland Assistant Administrator: No info
31. Holcomb, Robert G. – Assistant Administrator: No info
32. O’Donnell, Kenneth Patrick – JFK Aide: No info
33. Tice, Wilma May: No info
34. Smith, Merriman – United Press International Reporter: No info
35. Harper, William Allen – Medical student: No info
36. McCoy, Ulah – Admitting Office Chief Clerk: No info
37. Geilich, Peter N. Administrative Assistant: No info
38. Dutton, Robert – Administrative Assistant: No info
39. Reddick, Carol – Administrative Aide: No info
40. Tarrant, Jean – Aide: No info
41. Scott, Frances – Aide: No info
42. Haywood, Willie – Orderly: No info
43. Pomeroy, Jill – Ward Clerk: No info
44. Shankles, Joe H. – Security Officer: No info
45. Moore, L. G. – Security Officer: No info
46. Locklin, Henry N. – Security Officer: No info
47. Ross, Henrietta Magnolia – Operating Room Technician: No info
48. Jimison, R. J. – Orderly: No info
49. Bartlett, Phyllis – Chief Telephone Operator – No info
50. Lincoln, Evelyn – JFK’s Secretary – No info
51. Deibel, Mrs.: No info
52. Uzee, Norris: No info
53. Struwe, Bob – Comptroller: No info
54. Maher, Edward – Chairman Of the Board of Managers: No info
55. Crall, Paul: No info
56. Gannon, Fayetta: No info
57. Lively, Mrs.: No info
58. Huber, Katie: No info
59. Martinets, Billie – Associate Nursing Supervisor: No info
60. McLaughlin, Ruth – Operator: No info
61. Willis, John – Purchasing Agent: No info
62. Storey, Faye: No info
63. Davis, Chaplain: No info
64. Miller, Sara – Nursing Supervisor Out Patient Clinic: No info
65. Owens, Luella: No info
66. Reid, Virginia – Assistant Director of Nursing Service: No info
67. Beck, Miss: No info
68. Drake, Myrtle: No info
69. Curtiss, Mrs. : No info
70. Fitzgerald, Mrs. – Second Floor Supervisor: No info
71. Rogers, Carolyn – Assistant Director of Nursing Service: No info
72. Jones, Mr. : No info
73. Nell, Mary: No info
74. Magin, Madeleine – Assignment Desk: No info
75. Palmer, Miss: No info
76. Holse – Admitting Orderly: No info
77. King, Miss: No info
78. Davis, Mr. – Engineer: No info
79. Reyse, Jose: No info
80. Davenport, Mrs. : No info
81. Watson, Mr. : No info
82. Lewis, Mrs. – Housekeeping Department Supervisor: No info
83. Ellis, Mrs. : No info
84. Berger, Mrs. : No info
85. Scroggins, Mrs. – Social Service: No info
86. Geddis: No info
87. Mata, Joe – Orderly: No info
88. Harbison, Charles – Texas State Trooper: No info
89. Raley, Ken – Reserve Policeman / Medical Technologist: No info
90. Bishop, Colonel William C. – CIA Contract Agent: No info
91. Ferguson, Anne – Switchboard operator: No info
92. O’Brien, Lawrence F. – JFK Special Assistant: No info

END MAIN INDEX

-

INITIAL BREAKDOWN / ANALYSIS

It seems that the 175 people at Parkland on record as being involved or in the proximity of those involved with the treatment of injuries to Kennedy, Connally and Oswald from November 22-24, 1963 are comprised of:

59 Doctors

24 Nurses

92 Misc

Out of 59 doctors, 29 seem to provide information about the location and/or nature of JFK’s skull and/or anterior neck wound(s).

1. Clark
2. Perry
3. McClelland
4. Jenkins
5. Carrico
6. Jones
7. Akin
8. Peters
9. Crenshaw
10. Baxter
11. Grossman
12. Dulany
13. Giesecke
14. Bashour
15. Curtis
16. Williams
17. Hunt
18. Zedlitz
19. Stewart
20. Duke
21. Harper, Jack
22. Cairns
23. Noteboom
24. Goldstritch
25. Salyer
26. Midgett
27. Shaw
28. Porto
29. Burkley

Out of those 29 doctors that expressed opinions:

20 doctors appear to refer to JFK’s head wound as being in the occipital or occipital right area only:

1. Clark
2. Perry
3. McClelland
4. Jenkins (later changed opinion)
5. Carrico
6. Jones
7. Akin
8. Peters
9. Crenshaw
10. Dulany
11. Giesecke (later changed opinion)
12. Bashour
13. Curtis
14. Williams
15. Zedlitz
16. Stewart
17. Duke
18. Harper
19. Cairns
20. Noteboom

7 doctors apparently referred to seeing cerebellum:

1. Clark
2. Perry
3. Jenkins (later changed opinion)
4. Carrico
5. Peters
6. Crenshaw
7. Williams

4 doctors seemed to mention observing head wounds in the occipital right AND temporal region:

1. Jenkins
2. Baxter
3. Grossman
4. Teel

5 doctors seem to refer to a head wound in the temporal region ONLY:

1. Midgett
2. Salyer
3. Jenkins (after changing story)
4. Giesecke (after changing story)
5. Teel (later changed story)

Out of 24 nurses, 5 seem to provide information about the location and/or nature of JFK’s skull and/or anterior neck wound(s).

All 5 nurses offering opinions about JFK refer to a wound in the occipital or occipital right skull:

1. Hutton
2. Bell
3. Bowron
4. Hinchliffe
5. Nelson

There seem to be NO nurses from Parkland who are on record as observing a temporal wound.

Furthermore, it appears that 2 nurses and 2 doctors are on record as specifically stating that they DID NOT observe a wound in the temporal area:

1. Nurse Hutton
2. Nurse Bell
3. Dr. Jones
4. Dr. Hunt

MISC

Out of 92 miscellaneous people listed, 12 seem to be on record as providing information relating to the location or nature of JFK’s wounds:

1. Ward
2. Rike
3. Wright, Milton
4. Stamps
5. Willie
6. Kennedy
7. Huber
8. Kantor
9. Jacks
10. Powers
11. Kilduff
12. Huggins

Out of those 12 misc. people giving opinions, it seems that 4 say they observed a wound in the occipital or occipital right area of the skull:

1. Ward
2. Rike
3. Wright, Milton
4. Stamps

Out of those 12 misc. people giving opinions, it seems that 4 say they observed a wound in the temporal area:

1. Wright, Milton (after changing story)
2. Jacks
3. Kilduff
4. Huggins

It seems 15 people (12 doctors, 2 nurses, and 1 misc.) who are on record as giving descriptions of JFK’s anterior neck wound described this wound as either being one of entrance or having the characteristics of an entrance wound.

DOCTORS:

1. Clark
2. Perry
3. McClelland
4. Jenkins
5. Carrico
6. Jones
7. Akin (Israel)
8. Peters
9. Crenshaw
10. Zedlitz
11. Goldstritch
12. Shaw

NURSES:

1. Bowron
2. HInchliffe

MISC:

1. Willie

Other than 1 doctor (Baxter) who later seemed to be unsure of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit, it seems that NO observers at Parkland described JFK’s anterior neck wound as having the characteristics of an exit wound.

FINAL BREAKDOWN REGARDING LOCATION OF JFK’s HEAD WOUND

Out of 175 people identified with being associated with Parkland, 46 people (29 doctors, 5 nurses, and 12 misc.) are recorded as giving opinions regarding the location and/or nature of JFK’s head wounds.

Out of 46 people overall who have given opinions regarding the location and/or nature of JFK’s head wounds, 33 people (24 doctors, 5 nurses, 4 misc.) reported seeing a head wound in the occipital or occipital right area of the skull.

(3 of those doctors initially mentioned an occipital right wound but later changed their opinions: Jenkins, Dulany, Giesecke)

5 people (4 doctors, 0 nurses, 1 misc) mentioned head wounds in BOTH the occipital right and temporal region.

9 people (5 doctors, 0 nurses, 4 misc) seemed to indicate JFK’s head wound was temporal only. 3 of those doctors had previously indicated parietal or occipital.

END

For me, it’s very cool to participate on this forum with so many knowledgeable people. It’s especially interesting to be able to interact with authors whose names I see on my bookshelf. I appreciate the opportunity to read posts and have discussions with these experts.

I just finished reading Vincent Palamara’s “JFK – From Parkland To Bethesda”, and since Vince is a frequent contributor to the forum, I hoped to start a thread to discuss this book specifically with him and to discuss the research presented.

I thought the book was great. I’m my opinion it’s more for advanced students of the assassination and for other researchers than for total beginners, but anyone just starting to learn about the JFK assassination might also find it a useful guidebook to seeking out reference material.

Vince himself acknowledges at the beginning that it is more like a map through the complicated medical evidence than a traditional JFK book. I thought of it as a super tricked out combo of an index and detailed footnotes.

As an example, it will have a name and title, followed immediately by information on a chronological a. b. c. listing where that name has been referenced in other books or government records. If the work cited has specific references to wounds, those are quoted/summarized in long paragraphs which make for very interesting reading. Upon occasion, you can see slight (or even major) changes in some people’s stories.

The names have been assembled thoroughly, even citing an account that was submitted semi-anonymously to a book by Abigail Van Buren (Dear Abby) collecting stories from people recalling where they were when JFK was assassinated. Vince seems to have collected all the information possible about everyone on record as being around JFK and Connally at Parkland, and around JFK at Bethesda. It appears to be as comprehensive as one can get.

I'm already working on breaking down some of the information in the book for analysis, but I wanted to start this thread first before digging in too deep. I hope to let others weigh in and for Vince to say a few words about how he came to write it as well as what he feels he learned from his research.

Thanks!

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I watched this the other night. I thought Vince Palamara did a good job presenting what he'd uncovered. I thought Barry Ernest was very good as well. But I thought the film's discussion of the medical evidence was just awful, and a huge step backwards, at least for this aspect of the case. Assuming, that is, that the film gets any traction.

I mean, we had a huge blow-out (pun intended) on this issue earlier this year, where Milicent Cranor attacked me for arguing against those claiming there was a large hole on the far back of Kennedy's head. She thought I was presenting a straw man---that some of the Parkland witnesses claimed the wound was on the far back of Kennedy's head--as a means of discrediting that the bulk of the witnesses described a wound at odds with the autopsy photos.

So what does this film do? It presents Charles Crenshaw and Audrey Bell as prime witnesses to the head wound, and shows their depiction of the large head wound--as a wound restricted to the back of the head at the level of Kennedy's ear and below--over and over again.

I think we can all agree this was nonsense.

Who at Parkland says that there was not a substantial wound in the right rear of JFK's head?

I finished watching A Coup In Camelot. It’s very well made and worth a purchase. I had a few tiny nitpicks, but I think they’re far outweighed by the positive aspects. There’s tremendous value in having illustrations on the screen. It helped me to better understand many confusing issues.

I’m not a fan of having text on the screen while a narrator says other words, so it got off to a slightly bad start for me right at the beginning. Luckily, text/speech conflict is not a problem for most of the film. The text presented onscreen in terms of memos is well animated. Relevant words and phrases jump out of the page and are highlighted by using a red font instead of black.

ACIC is good at debunking the rumor that JFK ordered the Secret Service agents off the back of the limo. Vincent Palamara really brings the Secret Service aspect of the JFK assassination into focus. The story of Don Lawton (the agent that shrugged three times at the airport) is explored in depth, tracing toward Emory Roberts (who gestured Lawton and Clint Hill away from the Presidential limo), to Robert’s superior Floyd Boring and Boring’s assistants Winston Lawson and Roger Warner, who planned the Dallas motorcade.

The information about the press bus being put so far back in the motorcade was something that I hadn’t been conscious of until now.

ACIC does a good job showing how the position of the police motorcycles differed from previous presidential motorcades.

I wasn’t quite sure about the section of the film where they examine frame 242 of the Zapruder film. It does seem clear that at that moment motorcycle officer’s Hargis and Martin, and SA Hill are looking toward the grassy knoll, I’m not sure about Kellerman and Connally. I believe Kellerman does indeed turn all the way around and look behind him is subsequent frames, and Connally appears to be reacting to being struck by bullets. I seem to remember it being argued that Connally’s shoulder is being driven down by a bullet at that point.

The section with Sherry Fiester was very interesting, but I think I’ll have to read up on it and watch ACIC again. She examined bullet trajectories and argues that the final headshot came from near the south end of the triple overpass, and the shot knocked JFK’s head to the side, and not directly backwards as we have been interpreting as being indicative of a shot from the behind the fence on the grassy knoll. It’s illustrated by a cue ball hitting another billiard ball and knocking it to the side instead of directly forward.

Fiester’s explanation of “fracture sequencing” was quite compelling evidence of a frontal shot, but I wonder if it conflicts with Dr. David Mantik’s analysis of the X-Rays later in the film? (I'll talk about this later.)

I worry a little about her interpretation for a few reasons. First, it seems that Fiester’s theory seems to discount the possibility that two bullets hit JFK’s skull at almost the same time. I don’t know if or how two bullets hitting almost simultaneously would throw off her calculations. Second, it seems to rely on the Zapruder film being authentic. (I’m currently in the “probably lightly tampered” camp on the Z film.) Maybe I’m wrong about those nitpicks. Fiester knows more about blood spatter analysis than I do, that’s for sure. I'll have to get her book.

Overall, her theory and methods seem intriguing and persuasive. I’d really love to hear what G. Paul Chambers, author of “Head Shot”, thinks of Fiester’s science.

The “flap of skin” pinkish blob that seems to appear on the right side of JFK’s head in the Z film is said to have been pulled back over his skull, and the blood congealed, forming a sort of glue that kept the flap of skin in place. This is something I haven’t heard about before, so I’d be interested in learning more about that.

The CGI illustrations of the two (three?) caskets arriving at Bethesda was very helpful. We so often read the descriptions of the two caskets, but rarely get to see an example of a shipping casket. To see them both illustrated on the screen was interesting.

The whole section of ACIC regarding the two caskets was very interesting and laid out in a streamlined manner. At a little past 46 minutes in, there’s some audio between General Clifton and SAIC Gerald Behn regarding helicopters directed to Bethesda, that was very interesting.

At an hour and five minutes in (1:05) there’s audio of Nurse Aubrey Bell relating a story of Dr. Malcolm Perry saying he was repeatedly pressured by late night phone calls from people at Bethesda trying to get Perry to change his opinion of the throat wound from being one of entrance to one of exit. That was quite interesting to hear that from Bell’s own lips.

It’s said that Tom Robinson, an embalmer at Bethesda claimed to have seen doctors sawing into JFK’s skull, which contradicts the official statements of Dr. James Humes, who said there was no need to use the saw because the wound was so large.

The sequence featuring Dr. David Mantik’s examination of the profile X-Ray of JFK was fascinating as well. I couldn’t quite follow the “white patch” argument, and wasn’t quite sure what was being said. Are the X-Rays fake or partly authentic and doctored? If Sherry Fiester’s fracture sequencing explanation from earlier in the film is correct, it’s pretty clear evidence of a shot from the front. Why would conspirators fake an X-Ray indicating a frontal shot when the official story relied on shots exclusively from behind?

The tape of Dr. Mantik questioning Dr. John Ebersole, the assistant chief of radiology the night JFK arrived at Bethesda was amazing. I had never heard that before. Mantik questions Ebersole about the X-Ray allegedly showing a 6.5 mm bullet fragment, and Ebersole immediately ends the interview.

There’s also a short bit about autopsy photographer John Stringer saying he saw JFK’s brain being sectioned. I still can’t figure out who says that the brain was sectioned and who says that the brain was not sectioned and was even on display for medical students for a short time.

Finally, near the end there is a well-known clip of Jack Ruby stating that the true facts won’t be allowed to come out. Strangely, the following question and answer are cut out in ACIC –

Reporter: Are these people in positions of power, Jack?

Ruby: Yes.

The hallway interview with Ruby where he refers to “the man in the office now” (presumably the then-current President Johnson) is not included either, nor is there any examination of Ruby or Oswald’s mental states, motives, or possible connections to the Mafia, Cubans and/or intelligence services.

That would be part of my little nitpicks. I personally would have preferred a little more on Oswald, Ruby, J D Tippit and others. Oswald is examined for only about fifteen minutes right near the end, and it seems to barely scratch the surface of the mystery surrounding him. But, to be fair, examining Oswald and Ruby in depth would take a full documentary on its own, and I think ACIC is wise to concentrate on the events in Dealey Plaza, Parkland, and Bethesda.

Overall, quite good, well produced, and worth owning.

Hi Vince, thanks for the information. I'll watch it soon.

I just finished reading your book "JFK: From Parkland To Bethesda" tonight, in fact. Is there a thread on this forum specifically for discussing your book? I've tried looking, but haven't found one yet.

The forum looks nice!