Denny Zartman

On 1/15/2018 at 12:04 AM, Paul Trejo said:

As for the Walker-did-it CT, the most accessible source today is the recent 900 page book by Dr. Jeff Caufield, entitled, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015). 

As for the Bethesda Autopsy -- here's my CT.  There were two plots and two Teams.  There was the JFK Kill Team.   There was the JFK Cover-up Team.

They were not the same people.   They were not on the same page.   They did not coordinate anything.

Thanks for the tip on the book, I will do my best to get a copy sometime soon. If I remember correctly, the film "Executive Action" suggests that same scenario, and someone in the know (I wish I could remember who right now) apparently said that scenario was quite close to the truth.

The two uncoordinated teams appears to make sense. It seems considerable effort was put in to make Oswald look like he led to a larger Cuban and/or Russian plot and could easily had been a pretext for war. Yet that same threat of WW3 is what Johnson used to twist arms and get people to go along with the Lone Nut story. It's certainly something to think about.

On 1/14/2018 at 11:37 AM, Mervyn Hagger said:

Hi Denny,

Please elaborate. I am not familiar with it. Can you post a copy of it here?

 

Here it is as a Kindle ebook:

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Assassination-Chronology-David-Wood-ebook/dp/B005QOUV36

PDFs:

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono1.pdf

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf

I've read and heard a lot of theories, but I've never heard this one. I'd be more inclined to believe Umbrella Man was a shooter than Moorman and Hill (or people disguised as Moorman and Hill). Does that mean the real Moorman and Hill were just actresses, in this theory?

Hi Mervyn,

Does Ira David Wood's timeline not qualify?

On 1/11/2018 at 11:59 PM, Joe Bauer said:

I have seen the Jack Shaw interview ( TMWKK ) where he does say what the first quote says he said.

Shaw is extremely halting and hesitant in sharing this info. Very nervous. My instincts tell me that he held back much in that interview. Much more specific details about what Roscoe White actually shared with him in those last two days and their confessional talk.

And perhaps Shaw was extremely afraid, regards what he was told by White. Because if White told him that he was part of the JFK assassination, and this was true...Shaw could have been a marked man for being let in on this deadly secret.

Thanks, Joe, very interesting. I will have to re-watch that segment again. I first saw it years ago when I only knew parts of the Roscoe White story.

I hesitate to offer subjective evaluations of witnesses' but hey, that's what juries do every day. And if I had to judge Shaw base on the "Evidence Of Revision" video, he does strike me as honest and careful.

On 1/11/2018 at 3:12 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Thanks for clarifying your current position and reading about Roscoe White.   Here's my current opinion...

I'm not sure I discount "I Was Mandarin..." immediately because it was linked as a reference by David Perry, who it seems is the authoritative figure in debunking the Roscoe White story. Though I do agree that it reads much like a movie treatment. I don't believe I rely on many facts from the article in evaluating this whole story, other than the author's belief that, if this indeed is a hoax, Ricky is not the mastermind. It seems Ricky was one of the ones who immediately questioned the second, obviously forged diary. Not the behavior of someone set on supporting a false story, in my opinion.

I didn't know your theory was "Walker did it." I don't see how Gen. Walker and/or the DPD could control the autopsy in Bethesda. Someone had to be able to call J. Edgar Hoover and have the authority tell him how the investigation was going to go and get no questions asked. I doubt Gen. Walker had that kind of authority, but maybe someone in the military did.

Other than that, I have to pretty much agree with your assessment. I still feel the need to think it over a bit more before I form an opinion on the Roscoe White story, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't made up my mind on other matters based on much less circumstantial evidence.

A second partial correction:

According to the YouTube video I posted in my first post on this thread "Evidence of Revision - JFK Assassination Rarities", Reverend Jack Shaw did speak to Roscoe in the roughly two days Roscoe survived after the explosion that eventually killed him. There doesn't seem to be any testimony by Shaw that Roscoe specifically confessed to the JFK assassination, but there apparently was a murder confession or confessions of some sort. Also, Shaw does say in the video that Roscoe clearly indicated that he (Roscoe) thought the explosion was not an accident.

Here's a full transcript of the Jack Shaw interview, 28:48 to 31:08 on "Evidence of Revision - JFK Assassination Rarities."

INTERVIEWER - Joining us now is Baptist minister Jack Shaw. Jack was at Roscoe White's deathbed, and Jack, I understand Roscoe actually lived for about 48 hours after his accident, and you were able to talk to him. What did he tell you?

JACK SHAW - We talked about several things, but the beginning of the conversation he talked about what happened. We discussed that and he said that he had gone on a break and he came back off the break and there was a - under the bench there was a can, and he was in a hurry to get home that day, and he fired up the welding torch, and an explosion happened. and he also said that he saw someone leaving the scene in a hurry when he was coming back in from the break

INTERVIEWER - So the point was he indicated to you that he believed that this was not an accident.

JACK SHAW - Yes, I - yes, he indicated that to me, yes.

INTERVIEWER - Okay now I know that you made some 40 to 50 hours of audio tape with Roscoe's wife Geneva. What did she tell you in your hours of interviews?

JACK SHAW - Well, we talked about - we talked about a lot of things, but she talked about overhearing her husband and Jack Ruby talking and  - about the assassination, and things like that. And we talked about many events that transpired after the assassination.

INTERVIEWER - Now Jack, I understand that Geneva told you that she had a conversation with her husband where Roscoe told her why he was going to xxx pres k  that he was going to do it and why.

JACK SHAW - Yes she did. [Reading] She said that Roscoe told her that "Kennedy has been a pretty good president, but he has to die. He didn't carry out his own orders, and if I don't carry out my orders, I'll have to die too." [Stops reading]

INTERVIEWER - This [is] pretty amazing stuff. Do you believe her?

JACK SHAW - I've said all along that I've been place in a unique position. And I don't know exactly why I've been placed here, but I'm hoping that someone would come forth with evidence that will confirm what I've been told. That's what I'm hoping for, and what I'm praying for, and until that happens, I have to remain open about this

INTERVIEWER - I see. And once again this is based on your interview with Roscoe wife's [sic] wife who has since passed away. Jack Shaw, thank you very much for being with us and sharing that [unclear].

From Harrison Livingstone's "High Treason 2" pg 466:

A preacher also flits in and out of this story. The Reverend Jack Shaw was with Roscoe White as he lay dying after a mysterious fire - a fire his son says was no accident but intended to kill White. Shaw says that White confessed his murders (more than one) to him. Shaw also says he has tapes of Geneva White revealing what she knew. At one point Shaw mentioned to newsmen that he worked for the CIA. I went to the home of the Reverend Shaw and his wife, along with my chief investigator, Richard Waybright, and I was impressed with his honesty and knowledge of the case. "I am convinced that Roscoe White did shoot President Kennedy," he told us. "I believe that Roscoe was telling the truth, and had no reason to lie."

I'm puzzled why Livingstone did not seem to follow up on Shaw's alleged comments to newsmen about working for the CIA. It should be pointed out that in the YouTube video clip, Shaw doesn't say either way in believing Geneva's statements, while he does take a stance in his comments as reported by Livingstone.

From my research, I should make some corrections. I'll try to go back and edit my earlier posts.

It seems that Roscoe White did in fact have involvement in photography.

From Joseph McBride's "Into The Nightmare", pg 587

Despite the existence of the "backyard photo" in the Roscoe White family's possession, Perry claimed, apparently inaccurately, that Roscoe was not working in the DPD photographic area and had no special interest in photography. Dale Meyers, on the other hand, although trying to discount the Roscoe White story, reports that Roscoe was on temporary duty as a photographer and clerk. White's widow told the HSCA that her husband had been skilled in trick photography. Perry argued that Roscoe was not involved in fabricating the photos but took home a piece of photographic evidence as a keepsake and that other Dallas policemen also did the same, a reflection of the lax attitude the department took toward even its fabricated evidence.

A few sentences later:

...the HSCA learned in 1978 that Detective Richard S. Stovall, a member of Captain Fritz's Homicide and Robbery Bureau in 1963, had a copy of the same backyard photograph the White family possessed.) [Former Dallas policeman William] Barnard said that "quite a few" prints of Oswald were made by department personnel. "We all had those kind of pictures," Barnard admitted. So, it is possible that Roscoe White may have worked on the backyard photos as well as keeping a copy he should not have had (as his heavily redacted FBI files point out). Jack White told me he was not convinced that Roscoe was a shooter in the assassination but he was convinced that Roscoe, through his work in the photographic section of the DPD, was involved in helping frame Oswald.

First of all, for what possible innocent reason could Roscoe White's FBI files be "heavily redacted"?

Second, if I were a Warren Commission supporter, I would be incredibly embarrassed that their investigation, the one that even saw fit to seek out and publish Jack Ruby's mother's dental records, somehow missed an alternate photograph of the alleged assassin of the president, even though "quite a few" prints were floating around and "all" the Dallas policemen had "those kind" of pictures.

Third, it seems to be acknowledged that Roscoe White was in a position to handle DPD evidence in the JFK assassination. If he were able to get his hands on an alternate copy of the backyard photograph that was apparently being handed out willy-nilly among DPD officers yet apparently escaped the notice of the Feds, what other evidence might he and others have been able to handle and either plant, substitute, or dispose of entirely?

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Denny,

The further non-family evidence of the Roscoe White involvement with Lee Harvey Oswald, as you previously noted, is the Backyard Photograph, according to Jack White.

By the way, does anyone know if Jack White was related to Roscoe White?

Yet, if the chin, neck, shoulders, lumpy right wrist and back-leaning stance of the Backyard Photograph really belong to Roscoe -- what could that really mean?

I find it sad that many CTers will spend years or decades chasing down every suspect inside the CIA  but only a few days researching suspects inside the Dallas Police.   I perceive a bias

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

In one of the books I consulted, it said there was no relation between Jack and Roscoe.

You're absolutely right about the other non-family evidence, and that many researchers virtually ignore the Dallas PD. I think a lot of them felt they got burned by the events around the Ricky White press conference.

I suspect that, instead of helping, private investigator Joe West and the Matsu corporation were deliberately trying to muddy the waters and discredit the Roscoe White story. It should be common sense to suspect that a group of wealthy Texas oilmen wouldn't be eager to support a story that discredits the lone gunman narrative.

I went back and read the relevant portions of "Into the Nightmare" and "High Treason 2." I still don't feel like I'm getting the whole story. Despite some problems I have and some unanswered questions, I'm coming to the conclusion that there's just too many coincidences to write it all off as either chance or a hoax. I will try to elaborate in a separate post.

On 1/9/2018 at 9:46 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Denny,

One of the reasons that I recommended the book, Treachery in Dallas (1995), was because it has an interesting story about Roscoe White.

Thanks for the excerpt. I hadn't heard that story before. If true, it's incriminating and I suppose the first real non-family member witness that could support the Roscoe White theory.

Unfortunately, is also written that "some of the narrative cited above came to light as a result of hypnosis." That alone is enough for skeptics to dismiss it.

It's a real shame, especially if the main details of being in the police station and having a friend with a high-ranking father in the police department are accurate.

Thank you for the suggestion of Treachery In Dallas, Paul. It looks very interesting. I will be sure to order it soon.

I'm still thinking carefully about the Roscoe White story. I need to go back over everything I can find, make some notes, and try to sort it out a little bit more.

Thanks for the comments, Paul. It certainly is a mystery.

One question for now, it's probably been addressed in the past: I seem to remember a witness on the grassy knoll report meeting a policeman with no hat and dirty hands immediately after the assassination. Could this possibly tie in?

Hi Paul,

It amazes me that after so many years of reading on this subject, I can still find so many stories that just continue to surprise and perplex me. It's an endlessly fascinating mystery.

"I Was Mandarin..." raises so many questions. If one accepts the author's characterization of Ricky White as an honest person, it seems to follow that one would have to accept the existence of the diary and that it said what Ricky says it said. Then, it seems the question becomes: if the diary was a forgery, who forged it? If it existed, what happened to it? If it existed and it were a forgery, would the FBI take it and if so, why? Would the forgers decide to hide their own forgery for whatever reason, and still attempt to sell their story without it?

If the story of the metal canister in the burned out attic is true, why would a forger go to such lengths to hide it? If Roscoe made up a story in order to benefit his family after his passing, why try to hide it like that? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see the debunking article try to address the "green" book or the alleged CIA cables either.

These are far from the first things on the list that bother me about the Roscoe White story. The mere fact that he had a military connection to Oswald and his wife had a professional connection to Ruby is mighty suspicious, I feel.

7 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I believe much of White's story.

Will comment later on this.

 

 

I look forward to reading what you have to say, Joe. Thanks.

Okay, I'm sorry I came in here like I was the first person to ever discover this stuff. It's been discussed here recently, which I would have known had I done a little more research. Like I said, I had seen it in bits and pieces, but seeing it all together blew my mind a little bit.

I read these forum threads:
Roscoe White / Ricky White

Jack White: "The Roscoe White Curse"

And these articles:

"I Was Mandarin…" by Gary Cartwright - https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/i-was-mandarin/

"Who Speaks For Roscoe White?" and "A Few Words From an 'Amateur Sleuth'" by David B. Perry - http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html - http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sleuth.htm

Letter from Mary La Fontaine to Ned Butler - http://dperry1943.com/desperado.html

-

"Who Speaks For Roscoe White" was informative. It seems to be the most thorough "debunking" of the Roscoe White story I've been able to find so far. The essay does seem to knock down a few aspects of this story.

1. Apparently there wasn't a deathbed confession by Roscoe, at least, not one given to Reverend Jack Shaw.
2. It seems that Roscoe didn't have photography interest/knowledge according to family members.
3. I looked closely, and I have to agree that the wrist bump is not definitive one way or the other.

"A Few Words From an 'Amateur Sleuth'" was strange, because even though it was by the same author, it seemed more strident in calling the Roscoe White story a hoax than in the earlier "Who Speaks..." where David Perry says he still writes about the story because "...there still might be something there."

On one of the sidebars of "...Sleuth" that calls the Roscoe White story a "sordid affair" and a "classic fraud" and directs readers to another story from the magazine Texas Monthly called "I Was Mandarin…" by Gary Cartwright. That was strange, because instead of debunking the story, "I Was Mandarin..." raised even more questions in my mind.

11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

What I mean is that the bump on the wrist (assuming one can take that kind of photo analysis as valid) and alternate backyard photo don’t prove that White was a shooter. They are interesting in that they relate to Oswald, who in my opinion was set up as a patsy. Badgeman, as you say, isn’t conclusive, though in theory a shooter dressed as a cop, whether a real cop or not, would make sense. 

Have you read Into the Nightmare by Joseph McBride? 

I have Into the Nightmare and haven't finished it yet. I really would like to understand the Tippit shooting, so I need to go back to it soon.

9 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Have you read John Armstrong on Capt. Westbrook and Officer Croy of DPD at the Tippit site?

I haven't read it but I've seen someone's hour lecture on it on YouTube. That was quite interesting as well.

The fact that the White's owned an alternate copy of the backyard photograph, Roscoe was knowledgeable about photography, and the lump on the right wrist matching Roscoe's is meaningless?

I’ve read aspects of the Roscoe White story in bits and pieces throughout the years, and never gave it much serious thought. A few nights ago I watched this video “Evidence Of Revision – JFK Assassination Rarities” on YouTube. It put some pieces together in a startling way, and I’m doing some more research into it. I’m curious as to what others here think, and if anyone knows of any further research.

The section concerning Roscoe White is between 16:00 and 35:35.

I also consulted Livingstone’s “High Treason 2” and the revised version of Marrs’s “Crossfire” for more information. From my research, these seem to be many of the facts:

Geneva White – Roscoe’s wife

1. Worked for Jack Ruby
2. Says she confirms existence of Roscoe’s diary
3. Says she overheard Ruby and Roscoe planning to kill JFK
4. Owned an alternate version of the backyard photo of Oswald

Ricky White – Roscoe’s son

1. Says Roscoe’s diary existed and contained information about Roscoe’s role in the JFK assassination
2. Says the FBI absconded with the diary
3. Has copies of alleged CIA cables obliquely referring to the assassination

Reverend Jack Shaw

1. Says he took deathbed confession from Roscoe
2. Says he audio taped Geneva’s recounting of her experiences
3. Says he also had a CIA affiliation?

Other witnesses of unknown name and number

1. Recall seeing Roscoe’s diary

Roscoe White

1. Knowledgeable about photography? Was, or was about to become, a police photographer?
2. Joined Dallas PD early October 1963 (a little over a week before Oswald got his job at the TSBD)
3. Former Marine as was Oswald, sailed on the same ship as Oswald going to Japan
4. Marine-era photo of Oswald and a man with bump on right wrist and face that resembles Roscoe White
5. Mysterious death in an explosion, allegedly saw someone leaving the scene just prior
6. Allegedly gave deathbed confession to Rev. Jack Shaw
7. Chin resembles chin on Oswald’s backyard photograph
8. Posture resembles posture on Oswald’s backyard photograph
9. Bump on right wrist resembles bump on Oswald’s right wrist in the backyard photograph

-

Roscoe’s alleged diary reportedly has a brief description of what he did that day, from Ricky White’s memory. It allegedly indicated that Roscoe shot from the grassy knoll and rode with Tippit to pick up Oswald. Roscoe tried to get Tippit to drive Oswald to Redbird airport. When Tippit balked and suspected Roscoe’s and Oswald’s involvement with the reports coming in about JFK, Roscoe had to kill Tippit.

The weird thing is, this seems to explain some things. Acquilla Clemons described seeing two people at the scene of Tippit’s killing (though the physical description of one of them doesn’t seem to match either Oswald or Roscoe.) And, if Roscoe was the shooter on the grassy knoll dressed in a policeman's uniform, then that appears to explain Badgeman. (For the record, I am agnostic on Badgeman's existence.) I believe Tippit had some clothes hanging in the back of his police car, if I recall correctly. Roscoe could have changed out of his policeman's uniform and into street clothes after giving the signal by honking outside Oswald's rooming house. I believe Earlene Roberts said she saw two policemen in the police car honking outside,

So, normally I would be able to discount a lot of this. I did discount a lot of it when I heard just bits and pieces.

The matching chin doesn’t prove anything, but they do match. The posture doesn’t prove anything, yet it too matches the backyard photograph.

The bump on the wrist, however, can’t easily be dismissed. If Roscoe was previously knowledgeable about photography, that also seems quite suspicious. 

The statements of Rev. Jack Shaw, while not conclusive, are compelling, in my opinion. I'd like to know more about his tapes of Geneva and what became of them.

The fact that Geneva worked for Ruby is certainly quite a coincidence and difficult to write off as happenstance. And that Roscoe joined the Dallas police department less than two months before the assassination makes me very suspicious.

But the one thing that seems to be the biggest is that the White family owned an alternate pose of the backyard photograph. A pose that was re-created by investigators PRIOR to its official discovery. I don’t know how that ownership of that alternate photo could be anything but damning. You’d have to ignore all of the other “coincidences” and believe that Roscoe was just a random cop that just happened, by another coincidence, to be in a position to steal an important and incriminating piece of evidence in the crime of the century, wouldn’t you?

If others believe a UFO discussion is relevant, of course I have no choice but to defer to them. Obviously the moderators here agree that this subject is appropriate for discussion. I'm glad that others can find relevance in the subject and explain why they find it relevant. Certainly the debate over "fake news" and the current climate of conspiracy theories deserves further attention.

This is just my opinion: When I'm doing research on the JFK assassination and I see a source that is also featuring materials on UFO's, 9-11, Illuminati, chemtrails, the Bermuda Triangle, Sandy Hook, the Boston bombing, ect. I tend to shy away from using that source. That's just me.

If I were a visitor to this forum that knew little to nothing on the JFK assassination and I saw members seriously entertaining the concept of a base on the dark side of the moon, my initial reaction would be unfavorable. Indeed, in my mind, it would confirm negative stereotypes of JFK assassination researchers as a group.

Perhaps I would be wrong to have that reaction, but I have to be honest, that would be my first impression. These other subjects, whether or not they have merit, I would reflexively consider to be tangential to the main subject. Instead of using that source as a resource for reliable information, I would seek out a source that I believed had the intellectual rigor to stay focused on their stated main topic of interest. (I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone here who is discussing UFO's. I'm just trying to be honest in describing what would be my first reaction to an online source mixing the JFK assassination with certain other subjects.)

Secondly, I don't believe that a UFO discussion on a non-UFO forum does intellectual justice to the UFO discussion. As a sub-topic, by its very nature it will be examined and debated in less detail than the main topic.

It seems that many people automatically take UFO to mean "little green men in flying saucers." An unidentified flying object is any object flying through the air that can't be identified. To conflate sightings of unidentified aircraft with "JFK was about to expose ET's and that's why he was killed" is too big a leap of logic for me personally. (I know no one here is saying that was the reason, I'm just using that as an example of how a truly thorough and thoughtful discussion on the subject of UFO's would require examining multiple complex aspects and a long historical record that is probably just as filled with false leads and intentional disinformation as the JFK assassination is, in my opinion, beyond the scope of this forum.)

Picking through the the disinformation around the JFK assassination to find the truth is difficult enough without adding a superficial examination of UFO's.

Again, these are only my opinions. Others disagree, and I accept that.

In my opinion this topic should be in a different section of the education forum, since I believe that it's not relevant to JFK assassination research.

Hi everyone,

I'm making hard copies of rare essays and articles, and today I printed out Raymond Marcus's "The Bastard Bullet" from a PDF I found online (and can't remember where right now.)

Anyway, in reviewing it, I see that the PDF seems to be missing pages 36 and 37. Also, the main text ends mid-sentence on page 67.

I was wondering if anyone happens to know of a copy online that has the missing pages or of any other way I could obtain them.

I'm also curious if it was ever officially published, and what people think of the work in general.

Thanks very much!

I've never seen the uncropped photo before. That's very interesting. What information is it revealing?

I listened to the podcast last night. It was very thorough and gave a great overview of the entire subject, which isn't easy to do. There were subjects that popped up in my mind while listening, and I was pleasantly surprised when they came up as topics of conversation later.

It's a great book. I got a copy last year and read it for the first time. Excellent organization makes it very handy when looking up a particular fact.

I'm amazed at those books on that list. I've been looking for a few of them and was disappointed that they were out of print. I'm excited to be able to read them now. Thanks very much for sharing that link.