John Butler

Jim,

Not being a photo expert is an excuse first used at the HSCA hearings not allowing Jack White to testify about the things he could demonstrate.  It is used by folks that do not have a good argument concerning what they are saying such as the fellows other than yourself have said.  Their arguments are generally silly refutation arguments.  But, they do have an argument they hope people will pay attention to.

Whenever you see straight lines involving the human figure in a photo you know you are dealing with a cutout.  The human body does not have any straight lines.  When you look at the last post on pixelization you can see straight lines in the hair, both sides, and on the ear.

All in all, the pixelization argument is nonsense because the pixelization does not apply to all of the photograph.  It applies only to the cut and paste areas.  It may even be added to particularly on the forehead.  On the picture left is a very sharp, distinct line demarcating the pixilization area from the rest of the photo.  

Tim Gratz, Others,

I don’t want you to think I am bashing or debunking this thread.  Your work and the work of some others is excellent research, with excellent ideas, and excellent writing.  I have enjoyed this thread more than most because I have done work on what witnesses near the TSBD saw and heard.

However, I going to offer this idea for your consideration.  First off, I would like to say I am not a Lone Gunner.  I am probably more radical in my thinking than most conspiracy theorists.

What standard of proof should be used in this situation.  I believe, since this was a murder, that the court standard of beyond a reasonable doubt should apply to what these witnesses are saying.  It’s not whether the witnesses are telling the truth or not.  It has to do with what standards applied to the evidence.

J. Edgar Hoover said to President Johnson the evidence against Oswald is “not very, very strong”.  Meaning, I would guess that the evidence was very, very weak.

Chief Jesse Curry of the Dallas City Police said he could never place Oswald on the 6^th floor with a rifle in his hand.  There were others who said similar.

It is my contention that in a court of law you can not prove that Oswald was in the Sniper’s Nest or that a shot was fired from there.  This is contrary to what witnesses said.  Other witnesses have said other things.  It is enough to establish reasonable doubt.

There are 7 witnesses that were the closest to the 6^th floor Sniper’s Nest who made statements that could establish reasonable doubt.  They were located on the 4^th and 5^th floors within 40 feet of the Sniper’s Nest.  That is a distance that is about the same as the width of the average American home.

5^th floor:

Bonnie Ray Williams-  Williams first said he heard 2 shots fired when the presidential limousine was in the Main and Houston Street intersection.  At first, he didn’t mention where the shots came from.  This changed during the course of making 4 statements to the FBI.  When the FBI allowed him to stop, he said that 3 shots were fired as the limousine passed the TSBD.

Harold Norman-  Norman was always consistent in his testimony.  3 shots were fired after the limousine passed the TSBD.  They came directly from above his position.  In other words, shots came from the Sniper’s Nest.

James “Junior” Jarman-  At first, Jarman echoed Harold Norman’s testimony.  But, he later he changed that when he spoke to Gerald Ford at the Warren Commission hearing in Washington, D.C.  He said there that he heard shots fired from low and to the left.

4^th floor-

Victoria Adams-  In a 11-24-63 statement to the FBI she said she heard 3 shots to the right of the building.  This would be from the direction of the Grassy Knoll and the Triple Underpass.

Sandra Styles-  Said that she heard 3 shots that sounded like firecrackers and did not know where they came from.  At a later date she said they came from the direction of the Grassy Knoll.

Elsie Dorman-  Said she heard 3 shots and they came from the Court Records building.

Dorothy Garner-  Said she heard 3 shots that occurred while the presidential limousine was under a tree and they sounded as if they came from the west.

With all the other weak evidence against Oswald this is enough to establish reasonable doubt.

Steve Thomas,

I'm not pulling your leg.  Look at Officer Marion Baker's statement of 11-22-63.  His statement has a description that is pretty much the same as others and could be the source if he had a hand radio with him.  I don't think so but, there is a possibility.  I don't think many people have read Baker's statement in comparison to Roy Truly's statements.  They diverge substantially in who they saw and where they saw someone.  That's why in an earlier post I called Baker a quad-x. 

I don't know why the worded was edited.  It is a fine and dandy English language word that describes someone who is untruthful.  I need to go back and study TV euphemisms to be politically correct.  Marion Baker perhaps lacked clarity.

William Kelly,

Officer Baker makes basically the same description in his 11-22-63 statement to the Dallas police.  If he had a hand radio this could be the source of the description.  But, I don't think so.  I think your version of events explains things very well.  It posits the same questions that have always bothered me about how Oswald was identified as a suspect and located at the Texas Theater.

Yes, the forces of the universe aligned in favor of the assassins.

Jim,

To answer your question, the problem with the photo of the New York youth is that it has been retouched.  Paint has been used to reshape the chin of the young man from a broad chin to a narrow chin.  The chin is very narrow and pointed at the end.  His broad nose is pretty much as shown.

Why is his chin retouched?  I don't know.  But, here is how it was done.  The unnatural aspect of this is the highlight under his jawline.  It works under the left jawbone (picture right) due to the light source coming in from the picture right.  But, it doesn't work on the right jawbone side (picture left) because there is no light source to show a highlight there from picture left.

The highlight under his right jawbone (picture left) has been painted in with brush.  You can see the brush strokes and thickened paint.  Usually paint used to retouch photos is very thin.  This paint used on his right jawbone is thick and stands out.

As far as the fellow who advised you to not encourage me, well, I just ignore him and I advise you to do the same.

However, that's your choice and I am comfortable with whatever you decide.  All I ask is you just look at the photos and decide for yourself.  Do not allow "experts" to make your decisions.

As for the other fellow's comments, I would advise him to take an art course.  There, the Art Instructor will advise him on how to look at the details of an object and the things that go into identifying the details of an object.

Here is one last photo for you to look at and maybe it will be helpful in identifying Oswalds.  Having or not having earlobes is genetic.  It does not change in a persons lifetime.  There are 3 characters I am using to identify different Oswalds.  1.) earlobes or not  2.) broad or narrow chin  3.)  broad or narrow nose

If you look at Harvey Oswald's neck, it is very broad from side to side as shown in the photo above.  But, if you look at other photos that show Harvey's neck in a front to back view then his neck is narrow and does not at all match the front view.

One last comment-  You are one hell of a researcher.  Keep up the good work.  I have enjoyed reading your posts.

Well, let me try this again.  Many photos involving alleged Oswalds have been altered.  If the altered figures were not an Oswald character or a member of the Oswald Project then why alter the photo?  James Pic said he would not recognize this youth as his half brother Lee Harvey Oswald.  It is not Harvey because of the wide nose.  So, who?

Can you see what is wrong with this photo?  What is present that kills the reality of the photo?  What makes this photo a lie?

Sorry Steve,

I thought at first you were pulling my leg.  Neither of these characters have what you would call smiling eyes. 

However, the figure on the picture left is a Lee Harvey Oswald character.  I was interested in seeing if other people saw what I see in this photo.  The challenge was to identify this Oswald figure on the picture left as Lee Oswald, Harvey Oswald, or someone else.

At this point no one has taken up the challenge.  That's sad.  I believe folks might be thinking well, he's pulling something fishy.  Well, I am.  I'm trying to see whether people see this picture as fraudulent.  No one has in over 54 years.  Jack White said years ago if Lee Harvey Oswald was not a government agent why then are some many of his photos altered.

So, anyone care to take a guess?

Jim,

This is the photo I said I would post.

There have been numerous people who have delved into the countless documents and witness testimonies to find the truth and present it to the American Public.  They have done an excellent job and the truth of the assassination of President Kennedy has been exposed. 

The visual record of Lee Harvey Oswald, Dealey Plaza, and related matters has not been overlooked.  But, the research there has not been as extensive as the research into documents and people.

Much has been overlooked and simply not seen.  A good deal of the visual record that concerns matters related to the Kennedy assassination has been altered and are now fraudulent and useless as evidence to build a theory of the assassination or for court purposes.  This a contention that  most people will argue about because they don’t see the wide spread fraudulence.

Here’s an example.  This is a photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk.  My particular bias is looking for evidence of an Oswald Project with more than two members.  Would anyone like to take a challenge and identify who this is.  Is it Lee Oswald or Harvey Oswald or someone else?

Just a comment,

The background picture that Josephs posted has an Oswald figure measured against a woman under the question about her being 5’ 9”.  The man could be the Oswald figure with Marina in the winter scene.   It is hard to tell.

I did something similar by comparing the winter scene figures with figures in the warmer scene.  I concluded this was Harvey in the warmer scene but, at about 5’ 8” or slightly  shorter.  He could be slouching.

There could be more than 3 Oswald’s involved in Minsk.  It depends on who is under the Oswald figure face mask in another photo.  I will post this photo as soon as I can.

Jim,

David Josephs has posted a knock out plece of work.  It explains the third Oswald very well.

The draft card James Alik Hidell Oswald is identifed in other photos as Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk. 

I also did some photo work on this.  Its posted somewhere on this site.  I’m not certain the photo are still there due to dropping Photobucket.

Jim, Paz,

When I entered the military l was 5 feet 11 inches at 19 years old.  When l was 24 the same age as Oswald I was still 5 feet11 inches.

What I am trying to say is height doesn’t change that much in just a few years.

Harvey was shorter than that.  I think 5’ 9” or so.  The draft card James Alik Hiddell Oswald was even shorter than that.  At least in his Minsk photo with Marina.  Jack White did convincing measurements on that photo.

Some of Oswald’s Russian friends said about 5’ 3” or 5’ 4”.

This will give certain people fits.  This indicates 3 Oswald’s.

Thanks Jim,

I am out of Dodge currently.  When I return home I will post this photo I spoke of in my last post.  It is really interesting in the sense I don’t think anyone has noticed it’s fraudulence.  

The question who was Oswald bears on a lot of other threads. Karl Kinaski, hope I spelled that right, post about whether Oswald spoke Russian or not leads me to my bias of the Oswald Project in the USSR.  The photo l am talking about leads one to doubt a lot of things Oswald.

I speculate some Oswald might have and others not.  Again, speculation that Marina would know as the wife of the Oswald Project.

Thats going out to the end of the limb on this speculation.  But, sometimes that’s good in the sense you might notice something odd and useful.  After all, Marina said she had two husbands.  I am just wondering did she have more than two?

Thanks Jim Hargrove, Ian Llyoyd, Gene Kelley, others,

You fellows are certainly providing great info.  And, this is helpful to figuring out Oswalds.

I am a firm believer in Harvey and Lee.

Further more I believe there was an Oswald Project both here and in Russia.  Harvey and Lee can be identified by photos when they were young.

There is a photo of high school Lee Oswald talking to some high school girl.  I’m sure you are familiar with it.  Lee does not have earlobes.

When compared to an Elementary photo of Harvey.  Harvey has earlobes.  At first this doesn’t sound like much or anything of importance but, it is.  Having earlobes or not is genetic.  It is a condition that does not change in life.  

Many of the photos of an alleged Harvey passing out pamphlets in New Orleans is Lee or some other double.  Harvey, the man killed by Jack Ruby, has earlobes and can be identified by those earlobes.  And, Lee doess not and can be identified by his lack of earlobes.

There is a lot of photo alteration where Harvey and Lee are concerned.  Photos of Harvey that we think are him are actually frauds.

A good example of this is a photo of Harvey Oswald and a friend in Russia.  This friend has been identified as an assassin.  I don’t now if that is true or not.  Oswald in that photo has only the top half of Harvey’s head pasted into an unknown person.

I’m working off an iPad at present and don’t have access to my files.  So, I can’t post this photo at present.  It is really bad photo editing when enlarged and you can see the details.

Jim Hargrove,

So. Can we say that a short sleeve white shirt in not a white polo or t shirt.  If so then Roger Craig and Mrs. Reid can be scratched from the list of people who saw a short sleeve white shirt.  Robert Edwards said short sleeve white shirt.  

I can’t find others.  There are tan, light colored, light blue shirts mentioned.  Light colored jackets tan or grey mentioned but, few references a short sleeve white shirt mentioned.  There are references to t shirts or polo shirts.

Can you name those who mentioned exactly a white short sleeve shirt and not something close in nature.

If you go back to some December posts I made on Prayer Man I said the images are indistinct in Darnell and Weismann.  The Martin frames I posted at that time ended the huge thread that was locked at the top of the opening page.  

The images in the Martin frames are also indistinct.  But, there are enough similarities to associate Darnell, Weigman, and Martin.

Anything about Prayer Man is a fuzzy image.  

I fail to see the relevance that generated over 4000 comments and over 400,000 views.  I scanned through that looking for references to John Martin.  I didn’t find any.

Whether someone sees Prayer Man on Elm Street is there their choice to make for whatever reasons.  I can only report what I see.

Thank you for responding reasonably.  One of the guys who responded earlier who I generally do not respond to attacked me in my first posts here years back with one of the most vicious and vile attacks I have had on this forum.  He is just one a small group that makes a newcomers posts to this session a horror story.  They Bigfoot just about every thread.

I thoroughly support Gorden’s tougher stance.

It is my contention that Prayer Man walked down to the Elm St curb to photograph the President.  He has plenty of time to walk back to the doorway of the TSBD.  It is only about 20 or 30 feet and be filmed by Darnell and Weigman.

That leaves the problem of the Doorway Man.  Who was he?  I don’t know.  He is not Lovelady, might be Oswald, or an unknown.

That’s 3 Oswald’s or doubles.  Who would be dumb enough to put 3 Oswald’s into such a complex situation?

If Officer Baker’s 3rd or 4th floor makes 4 and who was the second floor Oswald.  Isn’t this ridiculous?

Jim Hargrove, others,

Thanks.  I’m learning a lot.  I couldn’t remember anything about a short sleeve white shirt except for Robert Edwards.

Cold you give me the reference for Mrs. Reed and Roger Craig.

it is my contention that the Oswald doubles don’t look that much alike.  Let’s say that the brown shirt Oswald is Harvey.  The man killed by Jack Ruby.  And, Lee is the white shirt Oswald.  Here’s my problem 

Roger  Craig saw white shirt Lee get into the rambler.  And, identified brown shirt Harvey as Lee Harvey Oswald.  If you use the Oswald you showed earlier then the two Oswald’s even look less alike then photos I would use.  

Is this just another Oswald what the heck.

Jim Hargrove,

Thanks for that last response.  Let's see if I can summarize what you are saying.

There is an Oswald character in a short sleeve white shirt seen in the TSBD at:

6th floor Sniper's Nest

2nd Floor with Mrs. Reid

Getting into a Nash Rambler.

Is later on seen at the Texas Theater.

I wonder how Roy Truly would have described Officer Baker's 3rd or 4th floor man.  White shirt?  Why has no one ever focused on this guy at the time when questions were being asked by the FBI and the local authorities?

That takes care of one Oswald character.

The brown shirted Oswald character is said to be Doorway Man and Prayer Man.  But, are they the same.  I don't think so based on the way they wore their brown shirt.  I say they are different Oswald characters.  One wears his shirt partially unbuttoned with the sleeves rolled down.  The other wears his shirt fully buttoned with his sleeves rolled up.  This is at the same time in Altgens 6 and John Martin.  Neither one of these pieces of evidence are reliable due to alterations.  In the case of John Martin that happens with the see through police helmets.

The two frames I posted for Jim DiEugenio from John Martin shows that Prayer Man is on the Elm Street curb.  If you can't see that then I can't suggest anything to you except what Jack White described years ago about people who have trouble seeing things that other people see.

The scenes by Darnell and Weigman are after the assassination.  When they shot those scenes the presidential limousine was probably going under or pass the Triple Underpass.  I'm not recalling the witness but, I believe someone said the motorcade was delayed for a few moments.  I'm judging the scenes of Prayer Man by Darnell and Weigman as about a minute after the assassination or slightly less.  It doesn't matter whether you believe the assassination occurred at the Grassy Knoll or in front of the TSBD.  The reporters car in the motorcade did not get there until after the assassination was over.

Hence, my contention that Prayer Man is not relevant to the assassination.  But, relevant to what happened afterward.   So, neither Doorway Man or Prayer Man is the white shirted Oswald character.  Wasn't there an Oswald character wearing a light colored jacket at the TSBD also?

I would like to thank Ron Bulman for his comment backing up Jim Hargrove about the brown shirt and white shirt Oswalds being at the Texas Theater.  

If you want to get a better understanding of the Jean Hill Mary Moorman saga then go to jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and look up 6 articles on Mary and her Polaroids.

Decide for yourself rather than let some so-called expert tell you what is what.

I just noticed in the comment above a gif that takes place after the assassination by one to two minutes.  The fellow that posted that has a far more active imagination then I do.  If my memory is right that's not what I posted. It looks like an alteration he posted..

I'm breaking a promise to myself here by responding to this particular fellow.  Replying to people like him and his ilk are a waste of time.

 I am back to not responding to people like this person.   

Jim Hargrove,

John Armstrong and Jack White in my opinion have done the best work on Oswald doubles.  But, not so much at the TSBD.  Whenever, I think I have found something original I later discover the foot prints of Jack White.  He usually gets there first. 

However, on Jack White, I do have reservations about his statements concerning Richard Bothun and the Altgens photos.  That said, I am an admirer of his work.

I think I have gone one better than Jack in identifying, just based on photos, several members of the Oswald Project.  I used earlobes, chins, and noses to separate out different Oswalds going back to the time they were youths.  The problem with the various Oswalds is they did not resemble each other closely enough.  Maybe someone would mistake them after just one meeting but not over several.  In the photos you run into composite photos of two or more photos, retouching with paint, face masks, and partial face masks.

Search google for : Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?  Is It Really All About Earlobes?   

I explain this notion somewhat better there.

Thanks Sandy Larsen for the tip on photos.  If this works right I should be able to provide the frames that Jim DiEugenio requested to see.

I hope this fits the request.

And,

I think the vertical position of the camera is used to photograph the Secret Service men who are standing on the running boards of the vehicle.

Jim Hargrove,

Thanks for responding.  The two men on the sixth floor gives me special problems.  Many witnesses said there were two men there.  I don't disbelieve but, see what this does to my thinking:

Prayer Man is Oswald or an Oswald double.  He is on the Elm Street curb when the Doorway Man in in the Doorway according to Altgens 6.

Doorway is either Oswald or an Oswald double.  He is not Billy Lovelady.  Billy Lovelady is just a face mask applied to some unknown who most counting myself speculate is Oswald.

Now, when you add a 3rd speculative Oswald on the 6th floor in the Sniper's Nest this begins to lead to some confusion. 

Then there is the man who Officer Baker met on the 3rd or 4th floor.  Roy Truly identified the man as a worker.  Why wasn't Truly asked who this was?  My answer it could be the 6th floor man that could be Oswald.

As I said in another comment, Oswald is somewhat like Charles Manson.  He appears different in different photos.  I have been working on this again and I think I can identify at least 4 possibly 5 Oswalds just by looking at the photos.  You can also find photos of Oswald that are not Oswald.  A photo of Oswald and a friend in Minsk is just the top part of Oswald's face pasted onto a photo of some unknown.  The photo editors did not do a good job with that one.  I didn't include the photo you use.  That Oswald is just to bizarre in appearance.  I like what you did with the photos you showed but, it is just to blurry.  My first impression says Oswald like but, could be anybody. 

If you are interested in the work go out on google and search "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald?  Is it really all about earlobes?"   

   Lawrence Schnapf,

Thanks for responding.  Many witnesses made more than one statement to the FBI over a period of roughly 4 months.  Bonnie Ray Williams made 4 statements in which the location of the shooting of the President took place.  First, at the intersection of Main and Houston with 2 shots fired.  Secondly, at the intersection of Houston and Elm with 2 shots fired.  The third location for shooting was in front of the TSBD and the fourth was passed the TSBD.

This is a prime example of altered testimony over time.  Williams had to make statements to the FBI until he got it right.  Marie Muchmore is another good example of what could be testimony that was changed by the FBI.  Her first statements about the film gave the FBI all they needed to get what they wanted. 

The FBI 302 is a tool of corruption.  It has been my opinion the FBI is a political enforcement agency with a sideline in criminal investigation.  The current Trump Saga is bringing that to the front again for consideration. 

Pamela Brown,

Thanks for your response.  I never thought of the point you made.  Good question.  Why would Lovelady wear Oswald’s shirt?  I know there was damage control afterwards with Lovelady wearing a similar shirt as Oswalds in some photos.  To me it was really not similar.

The question that irritates is if there was an Oswald double running around on 7 floors of the TSBD then how was he not recognized as such?

To me the Oswald doubles really don’t look that much alike.  Some photos of Oswald don’t look like Oswald.  Hence, face masks, two photos composited together, retouching of photos to enhance similarity, and other tricks.

Thanks for responding.

James DiEugenio,

Thanks for your interest.  Some time back I soured on the issue of posting anything at the Educational Forum.  I think I am over my sulking. 

Anyway, I don’t have a photobucket account anymore and I don’t think I can post photos.  You can go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and look up Prayer Man and John Martin.  That article discusses the issue.

The knowledge of this info about the John Martin film comes from watching Robert Groden’s Assassination films on his DVD.  I used PowerDVD software to look at each frame individually.  It is after posting Prayer Man and John Martin that I went back and looked at that sequence again.  This is when I noticed the flash which I think is a flash attachment.  It could be reflected sunlight but, I think a flash attachment.

Oswald has a large camera.  This occasioned speculation about Buell Frazier and curtain rods.    

The bit about camera orientation I just noticed that recently after reading some Prayer Man comments in another comment thread.

The John Martin film is of a low quality.  You may have to look at these for a while.  People have missed this whole sequence involving Prayer Man for 54 years.

If you will send your email address to jbutler8186@gmail.com I will send several Martin frames showing the things I spoke of in the post.  Or, I can add some additional frames at the website Prayer Man article.  That might take a while.