John Butler

Micah

I believe JFK was shot once in the head, from the grassy knoll.

Micah

It´s like the SBT. Muddies up the water. Then everybody says ... oh, we can´t solve it. It´s too complicated. All this theory does is allow the LN´s to talk ad infinitum and nothing gets settled.

JFK was shot once in the head from the front. Multiple shooters. We don´t need anymore theories about multiple shooters

George,

You must be a great carpenter.  You've nailed that!

You've summed up the problem I see with just about everything talked about with the assassination.  I believe it is the genius of the assassins that everything is arguable.  If someone was taken to court then nothing would be proved.  And, that is the basis for why I think no one ever was except for Clay Shaw.  How did that turn out? 

Michael,

Here's a visual of what you were saying.

There is a lot of room for trains on that bridge.

Shooting from the bridge can reach up into the intersection.  It's the best place to shoot in an L shaped ambush outside of the Dal-Tex shooting in the opposite direction.

You can also achieve the same angle from the Grassy Knoll clump of trees to about where vehicles are shown in front of the TSBD.  The angle of fire might even be better there.

My point in "Mary's Polaroid, no shooting there" was that shooting from the Grassy Knoll as shown in Mary's Polaroid doesn't work.

One of these two firing angles does and is capable of producing the head wound described at Parkland Hospital.

Right Alastair,

Went around the bend on that math mistake.

Thanks

Age 59 at death, then 31 at time of Zapruder/assassination.  Sure doesn't look 31 in Zapruder.

Thanks Alastair,

Geneaology is tough work.  You think you have someone right and much later you find that your wrong.

It sounds like you have fond a good candidate.  What disturbs me is Jack White knew about Bothun for decades.  I wish I could find a photo of Bothun.

I am almost certain I am right about Altgens being twinned in Zapruder.  Was it a mistake or intentional.

Does any of this really matter?  What's going to be the out come of the LGT vs. CTers arguments?  I'll start my really bleak forecast by asking "Do you know what is taught to Middle School and High School students"? 

What is taught is the verdict of the Warren Commission.  This has the backing of Government, Media, and Historians.

Most of us are old guys.  What's going to be the outcome in 50 years.  Will the assassination conspiracy books disappear from the library shelves?    Will the search engines on the Internet point to only LGT theories?  Will Amazon and other booksellers price assassination conspiracy books so high that no one will buy them?  

Can you see any signs of that today?

I favor a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.  To me the Conspiracy Camp has the best arguments.  But, in all reality they don't have any power.  The other side does through Government, Media, and College History professors.

Chris,

None of your shots stretch and distort the background and buildings on east Elm St. as Zapruder's camera supposedly did in Z frame 1.

Does anyone know why there are only 3 motorcycle cops?

No train here in McIntyre.  Officer J. C. White is visible above south main on the railroad bridge.  Officer Foster and 10 railroad men are not.  I think you can see to the other side of the bridge.  Maybe not. 

Weigman and Couch show no one on the bridge.  But, no train.

Couch shows something that doesn't look right on the ridge.

Weigman show something there either signs or something.

Here is Z frame 342.  It is one of the clearer ones involving these two:

Are these two men twins?  Are they identical twins?  The only difference I can see between the two is one man has a longer black tie.  Are their cameras different or Altgens simply not available to view due to light reflection?   Magnify this frame and you can see this reflection may not be natural.  Bothun has slightly darker hair, which under magnification becomes a dark splotch rather than evenly spaced grey hair. 

The eye of the artist says these men are identical.  The men appear identical.  Their suits are the same.  They wear their suits the same way.  Their pear shaped bodies are the same.  Their shoulder width is the same. Their dimensions are the same.  Guessing their weight, one could conclude they weigh the same.  Their heights are the same.  Their head shape and ears are the same.

I magnified this Z frame 342 to make Richard Bothun 10 cm in height on screen.  And, from there took a series of measurements.  My eye is telling me Bothun and Altgens are the same.  And, if there are differences they should be minor and due primarily to one’s distance from the other.

Here is a table showing simple measurements of the two figures:

Bothun / Altgens and 7 measurements from Zapruder film Z 342:

Height      Width-waist    Width-shoulders       Width-head      Width-trousers

Bothun             10 cm               3 cm                 3 cm                             1.2 cm              1 cm

Altgens             10.5 cm            3 cm                 3 cm                             1.2 cm              1 cm

                        Length- head   Length-forearm           Length- trousers belt to shoe

Bothun             1.8 cm              2.3 cm                          5.4 cm 

Altgens             1.9 cm              2.3 cm                          5.5 cm

This is just rough measurement.  Here a photogrammetrist is needed.

Did the photo editors screw up and include Altgens twice in the film and had to take measures to insure folks would see these identical images as two people.  Are two films blended in this?  Or, is another camera man needed to explain the story across the street?

Jack White had a curious thing to say about Bothun in January, 2009 on the internet.  He said, “When I met him about 1979-80, I remember him being in his 40s or early 50s. Based on this I think he died way before his time. He lived in Fort Worth and commuted to Dallas to his job at the M-K-T railroad offices two blocks from the Plaza, on Main. In 1963, he would have been perhaps in his 20s or early 30s. I remember him looking much different than the man seen in Zapruder beside Altgens. I remember him as tall and thin, not stocky.

This is an unusual thing to say after validating the Altgens photos as authentic for decades.

Walton's film is very interesting.  I could not find any reason to support a shot from the Triple Underpass even though it is the best place for shooting east on Elm St.  To find a reason, for me, to support a shot from the Triple Underpass requires a train to pass through Dealey Plaza and momentarily stop to fire at the President on Elm St.  There are problems:

There were two police officers on the railroad bridge.  100 yds. away on the railroad overpass on the Stemmons Freeway were two more DPD officers.

There were 10 railroad men on the underpass.  See Altgens 7. 

There is evidence to support a train on the railroad bridge.  Officer J. C. White's testimony stating a long slow freight train passed through.  Most discredit this. 

There is evidence to show no one on the railroad bridge contrary to Altgens 7.

The shot as described by Walton works if the President holds his head in right direction at the right time.  A slight turn of the head gives different results.

Here is a Bell frame.  This shows no one on the railroad bridge.  Just a few frames later there are people there.  During that time the presidential vehicle has hardly moved.

Is it a boxcar or highway signs.  If they are highway signs they are way out of place and, lack support.

By the way, why aren't there 5 motorcycle policemen rather than 3?  The McIntyre photo also shows 3 also.

4. (my favorite thus far): It doesn't matter that the Elm Street turn is not in the Z-film because Tina Towner & Robert Hughes both filmed a portion of it. The fact that neither had similar line of sights & caught only portions of the Elm Street turn from different angles is not important; the fact that the intersection was filmed by Towner & Hughes outweighs the absence of the missing Zapruder limo turn that Dan Rather told a global TV audience he viewed in the Z-film.

Robert Hughes film shows nothing of importance in the intersection due to the crowd blocking the view.  When the president's vehicle is on Houston St. the vehicle is to distant and blurred to make anything out.  Tina Turner is a film that is so bad you might term it an animation.  This is what you don't see when you watch the turner film.  I call it the "hit X" frame.

Ron,

Do you know the name of the police officer Tague encountered?

In the area were DPD officers J. W. Foster and J. C. White on the Triple Underpass.  Over on the railroad overpass over the Stemmons freeway was DPD officers Earle Brown and James Lomax.  They were located as follows from Brown's testimony:

Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way between - no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, whet they call the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Yea.
Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.
Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.

There was also another police officer on Main St. on a 3 wheeler.  I don't remember his name.

Other than these I don't know any other.

It is interesting that Officer Brown does not locate the 10 or so railroad workers on the railroad bridge.

 

Here is Bothun 4:

This photo is important because of the shadowy figure on the photo right.  It could be anybody and difficult to prove as anyone.  The argument is over whether this is James Files, also known as James Sutton, a self-confessed assassin of President Kennedy.  Also, the umbrella man and the dark complexion man are featured.

As said earlier, it could be anyone and this controversy plus the umbrella man and the dark complexioned man really takes one’s eye off the picture and what else may be amiss in it.  Shadows and reflections are sometimes a clue that something is not quite right in a photo.  This is 12:30 plus a bit in Dallas, TX.  It is within a few moments of the Kennedy assassination.  So, in the photo is it long shadows or short shadows a better reflection of the time of the picture?  The angle of the shadow from the lamppost is different from the shadows of the figures in the picture.  The lamppost shadow has the same angle as the shadows in the monument in the background.  Is it a composite photo?  

All of the cameramen have long shadows.  The motorcycle policeman has a short shadow.  The light pole has a long shadow which is angled upward. The shadows in the monument are angle upward as the lamppost.  For the Newmans, Bill casts no shadow and Gayle his wife casts a tiny shadow.  The umbrella man casts a tiny shadow.  The dark complexioned man casts short shadow.

Thanks Gary,

I don't have access to that book.  Mainly, I am looking for a photo of Bothun but, not the one in Zapruder.

There is little information on the internet about Richard Bothun.  He is a mysterious and suspicious person as far as I am concerned.  Here is what I have been able to gather:

• Richard Bothun was a railroad worker.

• He was an amateur photographer.

• Mr. Bothun took pictures in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination.

• Mr. Bothun took pictures before the assassination and after, but not during the shooting.

• There are at least 4 photos accredited to Mr. Bothun of which number 4 seems to be the most important.

• He took photos from the same locations as Ike Altgens on the Houston St / Main St. intersection, along Elm St. in the grassy area between Elm St. and Main St.  And, he is with Altgens in the Zapruder film.

• He gave his photos to the Dallas Morning News, the home of Ike Altgens.

• Mr. Bothun did not give any interviews to reporters, or make a statement with either the FBI or Secret Service, nor was he interviewed by attorneys for the WC.  As far as I know he didn’t talk to anyone.  If anyone has something different, please advise.

• Most of the major assassination researchers do not mention Richard Bothun.  There is little or no information about Bothun.  If they do mention him it is mostly about Bothun 4.

• There are curious problems with Jack White and his statements over the years regarding the authenticity of the Altgens photos and Dick Bothun.

• Richard Bothun, who photographed JFK motorcade and assassination aftermath, dies of heart attack in 1981.

What little is said on the internet about Bothun concerns the photo Bothun 4.

Insults are not good.  I have received many and varied in replies.  So, I need to retract what I said in an earlier reply.  I need to retract "bizarre and delusional".  I should have said something more tactful and do apologize for essentially breaking the rules of this forum.. 

I believe Dr. Kemp Clark from Parkland Memorial suggested a tangential wound for the back of the President's head.

Yes, the line I drew is slightly off.  It is roughly in the Badge Man's position.  If you notice in the following Polaroid shooting from anywhere close does not match for the Parkland Hospital head wound. 

If you look at the Polaroids that follow you will see 3 small red figures.  The Polaroids that show the 3 red small figures was from an article suggesting that there was no Badge Man because what is shown as Badge Man and Co. are to small to be real people.  Hence, anywhere near is acceptable. 

If this information was used to control them then how would Lyndon Johnson (back in those days my favorite president) get to be president?

Reading the wrong books?  May be so.  The book is question is:

The Murder of Marilyn Monroe: Case Closed by Jay Margolis  and Richard Buskin.

Monroe claimed she “had been passed around like a piece of meat” by the two brothers.

Bobby Kennedy was no different from his brother.  Internet trash indicates that one of Bobby Kennedy’s lovers was Jackie Kennedy.  It states that at one time the 3 Kennedy brothers were sharing (or, passing around like a piece of meat) Jackie Kennedy mainly at her instigation.  The passing around of Marilyn Monroe as “a piece of meat” seems to have been a family trait. 

Mrs. William Harvey said the Kennedys were scum and they were the worst people.  She did not specify.  Maybe, she was talking about something like that.

If secrets like this were exposed then that would have permanently destroyed the political careers of Bobby Kennedy and Jack Kennedy and, maybe even Ted Kennedy.

And, now to President Kennedy’s Hollywood black patch.  The Hollywood black patch is described by Jim Marrs in Crossfire, 2013.  On page 512 titled “Hollywood Takes a Look” Marrs states that Sylvia Wilkinson, a Hollywood professional with 20 years experience began to look a the Zapruder film under very high resolution.  She said she was stunned by what she saw. 

She said “When I viewed the frames following the head shot, I felt the hair stand up on the back of my neck,” she recalled “In the frames that weren’t blurry—frames 317, 321, 323, and others—a solid back “patch” on the rear of the head jumped out at me.  It was clearly artificial.”

I think you can see this heavily shadowed area or Hollywood black patch area as early as Z frame 240 when you can start looking at the back of President Kennedy’s head.

Can we see it in other films and photos?  Yes.  Just start looking.  A good example is in the Moorman Polaroid above.

Part of the depth of blackness in this shadow may come from someone sharpening the picture.  On the other hand it is an unusually long shadow in comparison to the other figures in the limousine. 

What do I think?  President Kennedy was dead when he passed the Grassy Knoll and was DOA at Parkland Hospital.  A person simply does not survive such a massive head wound long.

It is my considered opinion he was ambushed and shot in the intersection of Elm Street and Houston Street and killed in the front of the TSBD.  With the last shot coming from the Grassy Knoll when the presidential limousine was at or just past the SW corner of the TSBD on Elm and Street.

The last shot looked like this with the two X’s marking the firing angle.  This is the only firing trajectory that can produce the Parkland Hospital head wound from the Grassy Knoll.

This photo shows a simple but effective L shaped ambush.  The killing zone is in front of the Grassy Knoll for this scenario.  According to the X’s, I have moved the last shot further back to be in front of the TSBD.  If you look at this photo it offers a greater killing zone then just in front of the Grassy Knoll.  To do the job effectively you need more than 6 or 7 seconds and a small killing zone.  The ambush was mis-planned and botched because of the planning.  Shooting at moving targets with a bolt action rifle and scope is not the smartest of ideas.   I question the use of a scope at all at those distances.  There are no long distance shots anywhere to test a marksman.

I don’t agree with the placement and number of shooters in this example.  But, it does highlight an L shaped ambush.  I would include shooting in front of the Court Records Building.  And, I would add, though there is very little evidence for it, the intersection of Main and Houston.

In a survey of 50 witnesses who were the closest to the 6^th floor sniper’s nest, which includes 10 who said they saw some activity at the TSBD.  These people were in the building, standing out front of the TSBD, and on Houston Street.  24 out of 50 or 48% said that they heard shots when the president’s limousine turned into the intersection of Elm Street and Houston Street or when the president’s limousine was in front of the TSBD. 

That’s enough reasonable doubt to question both sides of the argument on how President Kennedy was assassinated.

Here is one last thing to add to the doubt of the traditional stories of President Kennedy’s death.  These are gifts of understanding from Tina Towner. 

Somebody didn’t want you to see what is happening here.

Can you read the writing here.  This is what I call the “hit x” frame in Tina Towner.  You will not see this unless you look at the Tina Towner film one frame at a time.

Of course, the best place to produce this head wound of President Kennedy's in front of the Grassy Knoll is from the Triple Underpass.  What was the first thing Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry said on the radio?  Roughly paraphrased he said, “Get someone up on the underpass to see what’s going on up there”.

I have never favored this location, the Triple Underpass, for a shooter in Dealey Plaza.  Two Dallas Police Officers, J. C. White and J. W. Foster were stationed on the railroad bridge.  Off the railroad bridge were about 10 railroad workers with Officer J. W. Foster.

Shooting from the railroad bridge would look something like this.

I have been to Dealey Plaza and the absolute best position to shoot east on Elm Street is the Triple Underpass.  The best place to shoot west on Elm Street is the Dal-Tex building.  This would establish a decent crossfire without worrying too much about hitting your comrades down range.  Ricochets from shooting from the Triple Underpass could hit civilians in the crosswalk or the Dal-Tex building.  It might also explain bullet holes in the Dal-Tex.  Maybe?

This might explain why Altgens 5 and the Zapruder film show two different and mutually exclusive groups there at the Elm Street crosswalk.  There was no one there in the crosswalk? Maybe?

I have never put any faith in this notion.  That’s because of the two police officers, J. C. White and J. W. Foster.  

In order to explain how a shot could be made from the Triple Underpass one would have to go into a long, argumentative explanation about a train passing through at the time of the assassination.  It is the one that Officer J. C. White testified to, a long, slow freight train.  I call this invisible train the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza.  That discussion involves the authenticity of Altgens 7.

There is evidence for this position.  But, there is also evidence saying otherwise.  Here’s an example.

James Tague in his testimony said he heard firecracker sounds.  He was standing on Main St. almost under the railroad bridge.  How could he have firecracker sounds if a train was passing by overhead? 

I grew up in Central Kentucky near the L & N railroad.  If you are standing that close to a train then that’s all you hear is train noise when a train passes by.

One would have to speculate that the train stopped briefly, perhaps for 20 or 30 seconds.  This would give time for James Tague to hear firecracker sounds.  It would also give time for a shooter to shoot from a boxcar into the limousine on Elm Street.  You can have a field day with this kind of reasoning.  Pro or Con. 

So, where is the best place to shoot from the Grassy Knoll to make President Kennedy’s head wound?  A shot from the Grassy Knoll to the SW corner of the TSBD could produce President Kennedy’s head wound as described by Parkland Doctors.  Many witnesses claimed hearing shots from the Grassy Knoll. 

If a rifle shot is close up then you would probably say that it came from someplace.  If the rifle shot is more distant, let’s say in the example above, than you more than likely would be able to tell which direction it came from but, not the exact location.

Could someone standing in front of the TSBD be able to tell the difference between shooting from the Grassy Knoll and the Triple Underpass?  Maybe.  Maybe, someone experienced?

Nice clear photo of Dealey Plaza.  It gives a good view for this discussion.

I always thought the death of Marilyn Monroe gave J. Edgar Hoover a muzzle to place on Robert Kennedy.  Supposedly, Robert Kennedy, Peter Lawford, and Marilyn's doctor killed her. 

I have always wondered why Robert Kennedy said he supported the Warren Commission right up to the day he died.

Was Marilyn's death on Aug., 1962 a greenlight to the assassination? 

If Ray is talking about near the end of the fence, where it juts out, then I agree

Mr. DiEugenio,

There's a problem in firing from a more westward position at the very end of the fence.  Officer J. W. Foster and about 10 railroad workers were there.  It gives one a better firing position.  But, there are problems with it.

I have never liked the storm drain idea for shooting in Dealey Plaza.  I'm not saying it is not possible.  What I saying it is the wrong angle for the Parkland head wound and it is also the wrong angle for the Warren Commission head wound.  The firing angle is firing upward from the pavement.  If someone did shoot from there they missed.