Matt Cloud

Perhaps then you just re-summarize here for us what it is "you've said above?" A copy and paste will do.

This is not sounding nearly as tight as you had once -- and quite recently -- proclaimed. I'll be back later today perhaps with some details about the Mexico City shenanigans that I think will be ... probative.

Okay -- so you don't know whether there was Soviet involvement in the Oswald Project, is that correct? All we have here are your guesses -- that he was loosely affiliated with communists but then that relationship was severed? Is that correct?

Well done. You have helped make my point, and even added supporting documentary materials. Anything else? Anything else you don't think should be talked about?

You could have gone to the trouble yourself of looking it up where I directed to you, the thread on the Anonymous call to the Tippits of Connecticut. But I'll help you all the same. The FBI source is understandably confidential, but you could read the report here: p. 136, second-to-last paragraph. https://archive.org/details/OperationSOLO/SOLO 016/page/n135/mode/2up Perhaps you would be so kind as to insert an image of the pertinent part of the report. (My upload space is still maxed out but you as a relative newcomer here perhaps have some left.) I'd also direct your attention to the 1960 FBI report on Weinstock, also mentioned in the call by the woman who call "crazy," in which it states that he and CPUSA attorney Mary Metlay Kaufman visited the Soviet and Czech embassies just before the election, possibly transmitting information obtained from Francis Gary Powers on his U-2 shoot-down -- most notably perhaps that (a) the secret police were waiting for Powers when he landed and (b) that Powers had told the Soviet interrogators more than they had asked for. https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/fbifiles/historical/MaryKaufman-fbi1.pdf. Discussed here: Wait !!! -- I've just checked that link by the Black Vault and it apparently has been taken down in the last few days. Here's my twitter post, then on the subject: "Always get tape, Frank."

I gather from that that Michael Kalin has been placed now too in the penalty box, as I had, for misdemeanors I did not commit -- an allegation of "harassing" for the observation that editing posts weeks old, the content of which has become a material point of discussion in the thread, was "self-serving." Wonderfully revealing, all. In any case, I ask you, Sandy, by which I include all of those you include when you employ your "we" as you do so often here ("We believe [X]"), how do you square the Harvey & Lee thesis, and indeed the entire discussion going back years here relating to the anonymous call to the Tippits of Connecticut, where you explore the possibility of "militant commies" -- your words -- running the Harvey project, with your claim here that you see no reason to include the possibility of other intelligence organizations involvement? On the one hand, you did, for a time at least, see the possibility apparently of the Communist Party running Harvey yet on the other hand, with respect to Mexico City, you see no such possibility. Is that why you must hermetically-seal off the "Mexico City shenanigans" from a larger contextual understanding of what you yourself claim is a decades-long intelligence operation? Is it KGB ran Harvey but CIA did Mexico CIty? Elaborate, if you wouldn't mind, please.

Would have been better had you not substantively edited posts, the content of which is material to the thread. Punctuation and spellings are one thing; self-serving revision something else. As an Admin here, wouldn't you agree?

You're not keeping up with the standards of reasonableness you purport to admire. I did not bring up Souetre. Again, I have offered no proposition as to his involvement. I merely corrected the original post here to say that the claim that the person picture with Oswald as being Cuban is challenged by other information that he was Hungarian. Got it? Now, as to Gardos, the consideration of whether he may be the person in the image claimed to be Oswald is not based merely on his being Hungarian. If you want to get into the merits of the call to the Tippits of Connecticut, probably best to bring that over to that thread. Briefly I will say here: You assert the caller is crazy. Well, that diagnosis overlooks the fact that she knew some key, non-public details about Oswald, including his connections to Weinstock and, with respect to Gardos, that Gardos -- Emile Gardos, certainly, and possibly son John, were scheduled to go from Hungary to Moscow, according to FBI sources, at the extact time that Oswld is defecting. Nov. 1959. That fact, plus the physical likeness, PLUS the call to the Tippits, all point to John Gardos as being part of an Oswald Program, or at least points to consideration and analysis of the subject, notwithstanding again, your unsupported claim that the caller was crazy. Got it?

Here we go. So, who, according to you, did "add it" -- your words?

I did not "add" the mole-hunt theory. The origins of the mole-hunt theory belong somewhere in 1958/59 -- just at the time Oswald is defecting -- with allegations made by the Soviet defector Popov that there was a mole in the U-2 program, who provided the Soviets with tech plans for the aircraft, as he is alleged to have told Bagley et al., allegations furthered by the defector Golitsyn, and then challenged, or to some extent refuted by the defector Nosenko. Linkage between Oswald and possible sacrifice of Powers' U-2 began appearing in the late 1960s. Then, the mole-hunt theory became most entrenched in the public consciousness after Edward Jay Epstein's publication of Legend and related works in the mid to late 1970s. At that point, Nosenko was brought in to CIA's higher echelons, with approval of Turner and McMahon, notwithstanding the latter having expressed doubt in 1964 with respect to Nosenko's bona fides. The mole-hunt theory revived yet again at around the time of the Yurchenko defection in '85-'86, at which point John McMahon, who had executive responsibilities in the U-2 program back in 1959, resigned from the CIA. Yurchenko supported Nosenko in dismissing the mole theory and McMahon stated that he would "stake his career on Yurchenko's bona fides."

Fixed it, then. Quote 1: "My theory explaining the multiple impersonations of Oswald and the disinformation transmitted in the Oct. 10 cables leaves no room for a mole hunt theory. (Note that my theory is shared by others, including the esteemed Peter Dale Scott.)" [Emphasis added.] Quote 2 (revised): "My theory explaining the multiple impersonations of Oswald leaves no room for a mole hunt theory. (Note that my theory is NOT shared by others, including the esteemed Peter Dale Scott.)"

Yes, and if Oswald or Oswalds, is/are being "run," "controlled," "directed," etc., as this thread has so far assumed he/they was/were, Oswald's state-of-mind as to what he knew or believed may or may not be relevant to answering the question of just who was running him. Whether he thinks he's a spy or he is a spy doesn't necessarily move anything anywhere.

Okay then. So as we pass from the point of merely laborious into the realm of bizarre, let's clarify: You think there are problems with the Souetre in Dallas claim. So do I. To that extent, at least, we are in agreement. We are aligned. More, we agree that you have accurately identified the most reasonable-seeming person around. Now then, i'll take these mutual understandings to suggest we -- by which I mean all readers and would-be contributors here -- move on from this internecine trifle and back to the matter at hand. So. Who is in the pictures alleged to be of Oswald in Minsk? Is Oswald pictured there actually John Gardos -- who may have gone with his father Emile Gardos into Moscow via Hungary at or around November 1, 1959, at more or less precisely the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald is said to have defected? Who is this "Alfred?" Could it be Souetre? Seems likely, based on physical similarities. Could it be that by having an Oswald -- whether genuine or a lookalike -- photographed with Souetre, who may have been in some way connected to Angleton, that this trapped Angleton, freezing his mole-hunt? These seem like some of the questions wrapped-up in here. Further to the Gardos-Oswald similarities, see here: https://twitter.com/DianaThoma19326/status/1778569688005410890

Yes! It seems as though then you should be directing your comments to the original post here, in the first place, whom I pointed out repeated the allegation that "Alfred" was from Cuba, when indeed there is a discrepancy there, too, with the WC stating Alfred was from Hungary. I have issues with claims throughout this thread, just as you do too, it seems. Accordingly, direct your fire somewhere else, in that direction please, not mine.

And as to not taking this thread seriously, why not add something yourself, one way or another, or merely do as I have which is to import here some of the research that has been already done? Go right ahead. You're starting a debate over ... what? Nothing has been established, let alone claimed.

I don't implicate Souerte. Indeed, I have offered information in Souetre's defense -- his statement saying he wasn't there and that Mertz was using his identity. I have taken no position and offered no speculation on that matter. So, as between you and me, I repeat: "not clear what [your] point of contention is."

Not clear what your point of contention is. That's not good enough for you? Okay. Yes, there is ambiguity and discrepancies surrounding this story. Once again: "Souetre argued that it was Mertz, using Souetre’s name, who was in the United States at the time of the Kennedy assassination. “What I find strange is the fact that [Mertz] was there in Dallas the day of the crime and under my identity,” Souetre said."

And now I'm responding to you Richard Betolino. Those are not my writings I have excerpted above. They have been provided, along with links to the source material, for you to pursue further. You can check the citations and proceed as you wish. My intention, at this point, is to merely bring into the fold here some of the existing research on this topic.

"In 1999, Brad O’Leary located and interviewed Souetre who was then working as public relations director at the Casino de Divonne in Divonne les Bains, France. Souetre explained he and Mertz were both parachute captains in the French Army and that Mertz, some ten years older than Souetre, was in the maquis [the Resistance] during World War II. Souetre argued that it was Mertz, using Souetre’s name, who was in the United States at the time of the Kennedy assassination. “What I find strange is the fact that [Mertz] was there in Dallas the day of the crime and under my identity,” Souetre said. “What was he doing there that day? It is obvious that he knew that something was going to happen and that by implicating Captain Souetre he could blame the CNR [Comité Natinale de la Résistance, the later name of the OAS].” 697 Souetre claimed that when U.S. authorities approached him, he proved he was not in Dallas on the day JFK was assassinated and that he had never been to the United States at any time, for any reason. 698 So what was Mertz doing in Dallas on that fateful day in 1963?" https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Jerome R. Corsi%2C Ph.D - Who Really Killed Kennedy%3F - 50 Years Later - Stunning New Revelations about the JFK Assassination.pdf

Thank you. "Interestingly enough, it was OAS mercenary, Jean Souetre, who approached the CIA in June of 1963 with information on alleged communists in the DeGaulle government and in French intelligence—one of Angleton's widely-documented preoccupations. Angleton would have been very much "in the know" as to Souetre's activities (and, indeed, may have been actively collaborating with Souetre). In Chapter 12 we noted that it was Souetre who was picked up in Dallas on November 22, 1963 and expelled from the United States and who was also CIA man E. Howard Hunt's OAS liaison. It was Souetre who also maintained an informal OAS outpost at Guy Banister's office at 544 Camp Street in New Orleans. What's more, Souetre maintained ties with Meyer Lansky's allies in the Corsican Mafia. All of this, certainly, suggests a very clear pattern which spells more than coincidence. The plot thickens, however. As we saw in Chapter 12, there is some question as to whether the individual picked up in Dallas was, in fact, Souetre or someone using his name. Souetre has suggested that it was another Frenchman, one Michael Mertz, who may have been the guilty party who was actually in Dallas and using Souetre's name. What makes this allegation most provocative is that Mertz was a former French SDECE officer who had infiltrated the antiDeGaulle OAS and foiled a plot against DeGaulle's life." https://ia801808.us.archive.org/31/items/final-judgment-the-missing-link-in-the-jfk-assassination-conspiracy-2005/Final Judgment- The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy (2005).pdf

... thanks. It's in the mouth, and the eyes.

Stay on target ...

Yes, but is that Oswald ... or a young Gardos? https://postimg.cc/V0Xj8WPs See post and image by John Butler here, p. 40 of 101.

Warren Commission identifies him as "Alfred," "believed to be a Hungarian resident of Minsk." https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2612.pdf Caption reads: "From left, Lee Harvey Oswald, Anita Zieger, and Mrs. Zieger. Person standing is believed to be a Hungarian resident of. Minsk, Alfred (last name unknown )." See also references to "Zieger" here, by Bill Simpich. https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Essay_-_Oswald_Legend_4.html

http://jfkassassinationindex.blogspot.com/2011/09/r.html?m=1 RUBY, JOHN Items written in Hungarian addressed to Ruby at above address turned over to FBI by CIA on 11/26/63. Subject: HUNTER Report; items 56MO5K and 59D09BX in the HTLINGUAL records were written in the Hungarian language and were addressed to John Ruby. "The items are not believed to be pertinent to the Oswald case." CIA 1520-1095; CIA 1593-1121-A