Matt Cloud

The issue to this thread, fundamentally, is whether the information Bentley conveyed in the phone call was bona fide or whether it was a provocation, and if the latter, whether Bentley herself was witting or unwitting in her participation of the provocation. We seem far afield from any discussion of those questions. Now evidently the chronologies of the two Oswalds (is it possible there were others?) is alleged to be established somehow but seems not to tie into to any of the details of the Bentley call. One minute it was imperative to scrounge the phone books for 1948 looking for Fred Blair but that now seems to be irrelevant. Likewise the details of Emil Gardos, and certainly the fact, as relayed in the FBI's internal memo, of him evidently going into Moscow from Hungary in November 1959, at precisely the same time as Oswald was attempting to defect. He had a son of almost identical age to Oswald studying physics. Same goes for Weinstock, whom Bentley also mentioned, and who, by other FBI reports, may be privy to U-2 information from the Powers' trial in Moscow in 1960, and is evidently relaying that information to Soviet and Czech embassies in Washington right before the 1960 election. What was all that about? It's now 20 pages into this thread and apparently there is no longer any use for the information that the thread is purported to discuss. Very strange.

As Board Member William Kelly wrote, in 2008: "http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry159840 Oswald's defection to the Soviet Union and the downplaying of his 201 File, in perspective, suggests the possibility that the downing of Francis Gary Powers and the failure of the Paris Summit may have been an event that was manipulated by a very powerful force within US Intelligence. Adding to this speculation we find that Richard Helms, who would be managing Oswald's 201 File was working with Whitney Shepardson (friend of Demitri de Mohrenschildt) as he collected information about Helsinki, Finland in the later half of 1959. In the Dulles biography it is pointed out the Richard Helms maintained a "private" intelligence network. Since Helms had been part of SI (as was Shepardson) and SI had been created under the watchful eye of John J. McCloy during WWII we find an interesting network of people surround this Oswald guy."

Cross-referencing here:

The following might be useful in considering whether Elizabeth Bentley in Louisiana circa 1953-55 (?) was merely coincidental to the fact that it was at the same time of Oswald being in school there. Unfortunately for many here, however, we need some more Cold War history, and the possibility as mentioned before that Bentley was part of an operation to incite the Red Scare and to get Angleton and counterintelligence tied up in the involvement. From The Mighty Wurlitzer by Wilford (p. 47): "When [in 1953] McCarthy then tried going after other CIA officers, he was foiled by an ingenious deception operation devised by counterintelligence specialist James Angleton." What was that operation, you ask? Well, according to Mark Stout, in The Pond: Running Agents for State, War, and the CIA The Hazards of Private Spy Operations (Studies in Intelligence Vol. 48 No. 3 (2004), at p. 16, here: https://www.cia.gov/resources/csi/static/the-pond.pdf: "During the McCarthy-CIA fight, Dulles organized a group to keep tabs on McCarthy's activities and to feed the senator disinformation. James Angleton and James McCargar, who by this time was out of government, were lunching one day, when Angleton mentioned that he knew of the other's work with "the Pond" in Hungary. [The Pond had been the Army's counterpart to the OSS.] Angleton described his concerns about Grombach and asked McCargar to meet with Grombach from time to time and report back. [[John (or Jean] Grombach had been liaison between Army and OSS you might say.] But Angleton wanted something more. He arranged to provide McCargar with false information, supposedly acquired in France, which would appear derogatory to CIA. Angleton hoped Grombach would pass the materials to McCarthy, who would use them. They could then be discredited, embarrassing the senator and hopefully throwing him off the CIA. In order to provide a pretext for giving this information to Grombach, McCargar was to hint that he wanted back in the intelligence game." This operation ran until at least July 1954, the same month that Robert Kennedy resigned from McCarthy's committee staff. From The Old Boys: The American Elite and The Origins of The CIA, by Burton Hersh here, at p. 415 of the pdf, ttp://treefarmbooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/TheOldBoys.pdf : "Grombach became “quite close” to Senator McCarthy when he was running wildest, and passed McCarthy’s subcommittee investigators whatever paperwork looked damaging in hopes of undermining the damnable Agency. This thickened the file with which J. Edgar Hoover’s agents were already cramming the subcommittee’s maw. Pushed, Dulles dredged up a Pond veteran still close enough to Grombach to elicit his confidence, and organized a double game. Allern arranged for his intermediary to kick back copies of everything McCarthy was looking at; then Dulles brought Angleton in, who produced the typewriter on which a lot of the more compromising material was written up; with Ray Rocca’s assistance the CI forgers introduced into the flow of documents going up to the Senate such quantities of misleading and diverting sludge as to throw the McCarthyite investigators completely off track. Before long the Senator himself lost interest, and turned his siege guns against the U.S. Army." Also note, regarding the interpretation of Bentley's material as well as the VENONA decryptions and espionage allegations more generally, we have from Svetlana Lokhova, famous for her having been part of the kick-off of the 2016 Russiagate scandal, from her 2018 book, The Spy Who Changed History p. 12 of the pdf): "The study of Soviet intelligence has been shaped predominantly by the reliance on a few Western primary sources or accounts by journalists and Soviet defectors. Little regard has been given to the inherent bias in this material. For example, the first-hand accounts from former Soviet collaborators-turned-informers such as Harry Gold, Elizabeth Bentley and Boris Morros were unreliable, self-serving and hence problematic. The National Security Agency’s Venona Project that decoded intercepts of Soviet telegrams was considered unreliable as a sole source of identification as long ago as May 1950. The FBI itself recognised how hard it is to identify agents categorically. Even when Soviet sources became widely available after the collapse of the USSR the new material was used only to support established narratives, and documents that did not fit have been largely ignored." Some things to keep in mind perhaps ... More on The Pond, here, by Jim Root: (Note his observations on the U-2, too.)

This is good. Consider: The persons who ran the Oswald Project were themselves the persons who created -- who enticed -- the mole hunt, by sending over, or causing to have sent over, defectors alleging the existence of a mole. Popov and the U-2 plans, then Golitsyn out of Helsinki (Frank Friberg) where Oswald had also recently passed through, Nosenko out of Geneva denying the mole, and so on. By getting CI/SIG to bite on Oswald -- something which the Soviets didn't do, or knew not to do it seems -- and then having him blamed for the assassination, the mole hunt was paralyzed. Indeed, there was mutual interest all around in having Oswald take the blame, including from the White House and DOJ. "The Mole" you see is not a mole in the spy novel sense; he was rather a KGB interlocutor, a backchannel between Washington and Moscow, known in both places at the highest levels. But revealing his existence would be a difficult explanation to the American people, to put it mildly. And it would terminate its purpose moreover. In any case, tying the mole hunt to the assassination foreclosed serious investigation into the assassination as well as the matter that had started the affair off in the first place -- the U-2 plans getting into the hands of the Soviets.

"should not have been relevant?" Why not? Says who? Evidently by this thread alone, and your contributions to it looking up Hungarians in NYC, there is reason to believe of a Hungarian aspect to the Oswald Project.

(Especially, all the more so, if Pic's wife is irrelevant as to knowledge of the Oswald operation, which she may or may not be.)

Jenner had been a member of the Civil Service Commission Loyalty Review Board beginning in 1951. One explanation for his questioning would be to cover his tail, so that it could not be said that he had not explored the origins of Pic's wife. It would be basic and obvious due diligence on his part. See: https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKjennerA.htm See also: "Sir: . . . FBI Chief Hoover says, "This whole network has been under intensive investigation since November 1945 . . ." Thereafter in 1948 you state that the New York grand jury did not indict him, nor have they done anything to all his pals, still living and pursuing various vocations. I am astounded to think Mr. Hoover had White and his cohorts under surveillance for three years, believing them to be spies, and still could not get enough competent evidence on them to get a grand jury to say he or they were probably guilty. Mr. Jenner should certainly investigate Mr. Hoover . . . NAT ALLEN Ryegate, Mont." https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,806751-3,00.html

And how are we doing on getting the infamous notes of the Tippit call from the Tippit grandchildren? Any movement on that?

Sounds pretty "Cold War-centirc" to me, John. If I had posted same would you have said it irrelevant?

You're all over the place. One minute your insisting on looking for Hungarian refugee waifs on the Upper East Side; the next your saying he's in Texas. Which is it? Why has this thread been devoted to the search for a Hungarian orphan in Yorkville and New York up until now, if the search should have been in Texas all along? Explain. And where/what is the source for this Benbrook, TX claim? What is the "earliest reasonably solid biographical data that we [sic] have?"

See Dr. Paul Hoch, the famous Hungarian Mk-Ultra doctor, working at direction of Harriman to develop ... who knows what? "MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE" CIA (.gov) https://www.cia.gov › abbottabad-compound PDF later experiments for the CIA), and Paul Hoch and James Cattell of the New. York State Psychiatric Institute, whose forced injections of a mescaline deriva ... https://archives.library.csi.cuny.edu/~files/Willow_Cipp_PDF/WSSM-2_b1_f4_015.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRECB-1999-pt11/html/CRECB-1999-pt11-Pg15539-3.htm

Hope this isn't too Cold War-centric, but you might check the records of Leo Cherne's International Rescue Committee (IRC), whom Oswald wrote in 1962. That's a coincidence. They did a lot of Hungarian refugee work beginning in 1948. https://www.rescue.org/sites/default/files/document/999/abriefhistoryoftheirc0.pdf "The Iron Curtain descends On 5 March 1946, Winston Churchill, declared: “An Iron Curtain has descended across the Continent. Beyond that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of central and eastern Europe.” Soon, a common pattern became clear: mass arrests, torture, new concentration camps, killing. Every day, democratic-minded people took flight and, by 1948, the death-knell of democracy in East Europe was sounded when Soviet dictated regimes supplanted the last of the free governments. The IRC quickly developed a network of refugee programmes that included emergency relief, the establishment of hospitals and children’s centres and U.S. resettlement. Problems multiplied with the Soviet blockade of free Berlin that threatened millions with starvation. An IRC appeal raised funds sufficient to ship 4,224,000 pounds of essential food to the beleaguered Berliners. Meanwhile, refugees were pouring out from Czechoslovakia, Poland. Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Albania and the Baltic states. The IRC continued steadily to expand its emergency relief, health, childcare and educational programmes in Germany, Austria, Italy, France and Belgium. Exiles were helped to integrate in their new environments and thousands were resettled in the United States." Cherne's CIA alias include Leo Chernetsky and Bruce Mastrocola. He had 5412 "Special Group" clearance. https://www.maryferrell.org/php/pseudodb.php Chernetsky, LeopoldoLeo Cherne was a lawyer, economist, US policy advocate, and he advised multiple directors of the CIA. CATEGORY: alias DISCUSSION: Leopoldo Chernetsky was actually Cherne's original name before the family changed it during 1929. SOURCES: 1994.03.09.09:22:49:750005: Reel 4, Folder B - CHERNE, LEO The related biographic file regarding Leo Cherne offers that he used the alias Leopoldo Chernetsky. 104-10110-10399: FORM - COORDINATION REQUEST RE LEO CHERNE AKA LEOPOLD CHERN... Another confidential document that seeks to use Leo Cherne for intelligence exploitation provides the subject name Leo Cherne “aka Chernetsky, Leopoldo”. This further confirms the alias used by the Agency connected economist. SEE ALSO: MASTROCOLA_BRUCE_G STATUS: Documented CONTRIBUTORS: Bill Simpich • Carmine Savastano See also cable "VSECRET FROM WASHINGTON TO NEW YORK from TRAVIS (aka George H.W. Bush?) to ASHCRAFT, p. 2: "LEO CHERNE -- RPT -- LEO CHERNE IS THE MAN." https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10070-10296.pdf

Yes. I understand and the point is valid, that the Grados son became a Hungarian diplomat evidently, which for the East (and the West) often is synonymous with espionage. There is no conflict with the thesis that that son may have been at some point in the chronology an Oswald double, or help to facilitate the Oswald Project. One obvious point of use for him in the operation is possibly going to USSR from Hungary in November 1959, as that FBI memo talks around, at same time that the Texas Oswald is trying to defect.

John -- you keep making accusations of what you perceive as relevant or irrelevant. A better approach when you come across a post that you don't grasp would be to simply ask what is the relevance here, rather than to assert that there is no relevance. That approach avoids many problems in dialogue -- and saves face. Let's get on with the analysis shall we?

Okay, thank you. But the FBI report I cited doesn't say anything about chemistry. It says the Gardos son is studying physics, and has almost completed his degree. That's in 1959.

About ten minutes of work on the internet will yield that the Oswald timeline has at least 7 Weinstock data points: 1. Bentley call to J.D. Tippit in 1963 mentions Weinstock along with Gardos and Uncle in describing that Oswald was Hungarian boy from Yorkville in 1948. 2. In Hungary, Weinstock meets-up with Gardos (who had been deported there in 1948) according to FBI just before Gardos becomes cultural attache in Moscow, on Nov 1, 1959, the exact time that Oswald from Texas is trying to defect. 3. Weinstock may be privy to information concerning what Powers told the Soviets after U-2 shoot-down as he travels from NYC to DC to Soviet and Czech embassies with CPUSA attorney Mary Metlay Kaufman in October 1960. (According to FBI report, Kaufman was guest of Moscow at Powers' trial and learned from Powers defense counsel there that Powers told Soviets more than they had asked for and explained that Soviet State Security officials were already waiting for him when he was shot down.) https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/fbifiles/historical/MaryKaufman-fbi1.pdf. 4. Robert Kennedy orders Weinstock and 9 others to register under the Internal Security Act of 1950, circa June 1, 1962. 5. Oswald writes Weinstock at The Worker in the Fall of 1962 offering photographic blow-up services for Weinstock. Weinstock thanks him in letter to Oswald at his P.O. Box in Dallas, TX, dated Dec. 19, 1962. 6. May 19, 1963 Weinsock is identified in the press as a "high Communist official who is being charged by the Justice Department" in a story about pro-Soviet, pro-Castro demonstrations (The Evening Independent Massillon, Ohio Thu, May 9, 1963 Page 4). Story also mentions young KGB officer Oleg Kalugin who had been part of Harriman exchange program along with Alexander Yakovlev (later the "architect of prestroika") at Columbia in 1958. In the 1990s, after the fall of USSR, Kalugin became consultant to FBI. REPEAT of 1. Bentley call to J.D. Tippit after assassination in November in 1963 mentions Weinstock along with Gardos and Uncle in describing that Oswald was Hungarian boy from Yorkville in 1948. This FBI memo may foreclose through (purposeful?) misspellings cross-references with other FBI files on Emile Gardos, Fred Blair and Louis Weinstock. "Austrian or German accent" gets transformed into "Spanish accent." Tippits of CT did NOT want Norwalk Hour to print connection to Tippit of TX, yet the paper did anyway. Approx. three days later, caller Bentley is dead in New Haven, CT. (Six of 15 copies of the FBI memo are destroyed in Feb 1973.) 7. Weinstock submits affidavit to Warren Commission concerning Oswald, May 20, 1964.

For the third time, p. 136, second-to-last paragraph. https://archive.org/details/OperationSOLO/SOLO 016/page/n135/mode/2up

John, I am discussing the Tippit call, and the ramifications -- as brought up by Paul Jolliffe -- of the understanding that Bentley made the call. Anytime you want to discuss those implications, or any of the numerous facts about those persons specifically addressed in that call -- Weinstock, Gardos, et al., go right ahead. Or keep looking up the phone books. You seem not to want to discuss either the facts or the implications. This topic has bandied about this forum since at least 2015 ... no one has mentioned that Weinstock for instance is IN THE WARREN COMMISSION. No one has found out, prior to me, that Weinstock met Gardos in 1959 in Hungary before the latter went into the USSR. all of that directly flows in any discussion about the call to the Tippits of CT.

And I say carry on -- continue -- and will look forward to any and all additional details you provide here, as well as offering input to this public forum that may shed light on the significance of such facts which will contribute to the understanding of the Oswald project, the Tippit call, and the assassination more generally.

I see no conflict between micro-level work such as your phone-book analysis -- that's important -- with more macro-level work -- big picture implications -- on this thread. Both can "peacefully co-exist," to use a Cold War phrase, here.

This is important.

And remember, even if no one else here will, Weinstock and Oswald -- the Texas Oswald we are to believe -- write each other in '62/'63? Weinstock's affidavit about Oswald offering photo enlargement services to Weinstock and The Worker is published in the Warren Commission. If Weinstock is an agent of the U.S. government, as Armstrong speculates in Harvey and Lee, well, that's bad.

So you have indicated. I am not suggesting that the full contours of the mole theory and its implications be discussed and analyzed here; merely that it be kept in the backs of minds in analyzing the "Harvey project." Doing so, experience has shown, helps understand the purpose and the events surrounding the creation of the Oswald legend.

Interesting. I think you're spot on here: "Of ourse the secret Trotskyists probably did exist - so maybe Gardosh was a clever spy who did have secet Liberal views while representing as a diplomat the new neo-stalin regime and went to work in their Foreign affairs section, CORVINA. "