Duke Lane Posted August 3, 2007 Author Share Posted August 3, 2007 1.) Hoffman never said a man walked down the fence line. ... 2.) Holland never said he walked down the fence line. ... 3.) Arnold said he straddled the steam pipe ... This photo was made on Nov. 24, 1963: Note Foster would have seen Hoffman's tableau vivant, but did not. .... Leaves one to wondering if the two parking lot attendants saw it, doesn't it? How did Lee Bowers miss it from his vantage point 14' or so above the ground? Did you notice that in Eye Witness, Ed states that he saw the limo roar up the entrance ramp, and then turned around again to see the "rifle toss" and flight ... and then turned around again to see the SS follow-up car with Hickey pointing his AR-15 at him? (See the sketches above for an illustration of how far apart the limo and follow-up car were.) There was clearly more time for all this to have been taking place than you've allowed in your scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 (edited) 1.) Hoffman never said a man walked down the fence line. Considering that the pathway down the fence would be no greater than 2 feet wide because of the parked cars, such action by a man carrying a rifle would have been counter-intuitive in any case. On the logic, the fence pathway would have been constricted to one foot in width. Well, you started out saying that the cars were parked right up to the fence - that Holland had to jump bumpers and so on. Now that some of your misconceptions have been cleared up - you are saying that there was only two feet between the cars and the fence. Go back and look at Holland's drawing of the footprints that he said was 3' x 2'. Is there not even more spece between where Holland said the footprints stopped and the fence? So it appears that someone could walk the fence line. And so we are clear - I interviewed Hoffman with his family present and Ed walked me down that fence line as he said the man with the gun had done. I do not recall seeing you there. Did you notice that in Eye Witness, Ed states that he saw the limo roar up the entrance ramp, and then turned around again to see the "rifle toss" and flight ... and then turned around again to see the SS follow-up car with Hickey pointing his AR-15 at him? (See the sketches above for an illustration of how far apart the limo and follow-up car were.)There was clearly more time for all this to have been taking place than you've allowed in your scenarios. Can you be more precise??? The Daniel film shows the SS car coming through the underpass and can be timed quite easily. As far as when it came under Stemmons for Ed to see it - that would depend how much time was lost when Curry's car pulled along side the limo so to give directions to the hospital. Curry called it a rolling stop meaning that the two cars were barely moving at that point in time. I look forward to your thoughts after digesting this information. 2.) Holland never said he walked down the fence line. He said he jumped & vaulted over cars & went to the fence after coming back to & arriving at the front of the station wagon which was backed into the fence. Sam Holland said, "I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them." this tells me that Holland is saying that others also walked the fence line looking for shell casings and/or tracks. 3.) Arnold said he straddled the steam pipe which burned Weitzman's hands. Arnold's story is open to doubt & cannot be relied on. Many doubt Arnold's story. I believe that Jack has addressed the steam pipe before by saying that it was insulated. You may recall Holland saying that a couple of guys went over the steam pipe and one fell on top of the other. I am not sure where Weitzman touched the pipe so to get burned ... maybe you can enlighten us on this ? Note Foster would have seen Hoffman's tableau vivant, but did not. This refutes Ed's story. I have asked this question several times for a reason and it appears that it needs to keep being asked until you address it - Does the photographic record support your position that Foster was off the underpass within 20 - 30 seconds following the shooting? Here is a blowup. Note that the top car & the bottom pickup truck are within a foot of the fence which is approximated by the red line. Remember, on Nov. 22, 1963, the fence was abutted & pressed into by parked cars down its entire length. I would like to know where you got the information that the cars were pressed into the fence at the time of the assassination? I hope that you are not citing your impressions as fact. Bill Miller Edited August 3, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberdeau Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 (edited) Good Day.... There is a 28 minute "RealPlayer" formatted video interview completed in 1997 with ED HOFFMAN available for everyone here (Fair warning, the video clarity and brightness could be better).... http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/...p?media_id=5349 ....Does anyone have the computer hardware capability to capture the diagrams HOFFMAN presents in this interview? Thank You, in advance. Best Regards in Research, Don Don Roberdeau U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll" Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc 4 Principles T ogether E veryone A chieves M ore For the United States "I looked towards the top of the terrace to my right as the sound of the shots seemed to come from that direction." -Secret Service Dallas Office SAIC Forest Sorrels' report dated 28NOV63: also 21H548 (per close attack witness JACK FRANZEN's videotaped interview, at the attack start, SORRELS was just barely past the FRANZEN's, even with the picket fence corner, some 140' in front of the President) Edited August 3, 2007 by Don Roberdeau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Good Day.... There is a 28 minute "RealPlayer" formatted video interview completed in 1997 with ED HOFFMAN available for everyone here (Fair warning, the video clarity and brightness could be better).... http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/...p?media_id=5349 ....Does anyone have the computer hardware capability to capture the diagrams HOFFMAN presents in this interview? Thank You, in advance. Don Seems to be an error in your link above. Miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberdeau Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 Good Day.... There is a 28 minute "RealPlayer" formatted video interview completed in 1997 with ED HOFFMAN available for everyone here (Fair warning, the video clarity and brightness could be better).... http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/...p?media_id=5349 ....Does anyone have the computer hardware capability to capture the diagrams HOFFMAN presents in this interview? Thank You, in advance. Don Seems to be an error in your link above. Miles Miles.... Plays Gr8 on my computer. Perhaps, it will play for you if you try opening it into its own, separate, "RealPlayer" window on your computer? Just a Thought. Best Regards in Research, Don Don Roberdeau U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll" Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc 4 Principles T ogether E veryone A chieves M ore For the United States "I looked towards the top of the terrace to my right as the sound of the shots seemed to come from that direction." -Secret Service Dallas Office SAIC Forest Sorrels' report dated 28NOV63: also 21H548 (per close attack witness JACK FRANZEN's videotaped interview, at the attack start, SORRELS was just barely past the FRANZEN's, even with the picket fence corner, some 140' in front of the President) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted August 3, 2007 Share Posted August 3, 2007 (edited) Good Day.... There is a 28 minute "RealPlayer" formatted video interview completed in 1997 with ED HOFFMAN available for everyone here (Fair warning, the video clarity and brightness could be better).... http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/...p?media_id=5349 ....Does anyone have the computer hardware capability to capture the diagrams HOFFMAN presents in this interview? Thank You, in advance. Don Seems to be an error in your link above. Miles Mr. BALL - Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed - turned onto Elm from Houston. Mr. FOSTER - After he came onto Elm I watched the men on the track more than I was him. Then I heard this loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening. Mr. BALL - What did you see was happening? Mr. FOSTER - Saw the president slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up. Mr. BALL - You saw that did you? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And what did you do then? Mr. FOSTER - Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right - to the left - around to the bookstore. It is clear that Officer Foster, who was standing near Sam Holland atop the TU at Z-313, ran to a place in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313 where he would have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. Since there was no navigable pathway along the fence because of the blocking cars parked up against the fence, Ed's alleged sniper might have been delayed in his RUN to the steam pipe, in which case Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313 would then have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. The distance from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe is 40 yards. Think of running 40 yards, with rifle at port arms, down a pathway that narrowed to one to two feet in width, with a 5 foot fence on your left, which had protruding vertical metal posts protruding from its surface (!), and a row of 2 ft. high car bumpers hemming you in on your right. You would break your legs. I finally got the stream to work on Don's link above. It is a recap of Ed's book Eyewitness. But there was one astonishing addition. Ed says (signs) very precisely & clearly to his interpreter (co-author of Eyewitness, Ron Friedrich) that he (Ed) was interviewed in 1967 by an FBI agent who did not know sign language, but who, at the end of the interview, using pantomime: pointed at Ed, put his fingers to his lips showing a hush sign, pointed to his back (wallet) pocket, showed Ed a hand showing 5 fingers, followed by two fists (the hearing person's sign for 500 as Ed tells it). Ed says that he clearly understood by this pantomime that the FBI agent was bribing him to keep silent about what Ed had just told the FBI agent that he had seen on Nov. 22, 1963. The bribe was $500. Incredible! In more ways than one. There is no joy in Mudville, mighty Casey has struck out. . Edited August 3, 2007 by Miles Scull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted August 4, 2007 Author Share Posted August 4, 2007 3.) Arnold said he straddled the steam pipe which burned Weitzman's hands. Arnold's story is open to doubt & cannot be relied on. Many doubt Arnold's story. I believe that Jack has addressed the steam pipe before by saying that it was insulated. You may recall Holland saying that a couple of guys went over the steam pipe and one fell on top of the other. I am not sure where Weitzman touched the pipe so to get burned ... maybe you can enlighten us on this ? Maybe it's in the Weitzman report? If someone could just find that dang thing, maybe then we'd all know!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Maybe it's in the Weitzman report? If someone could just find that dang thing, maybe then we'd all know!! Duke, let us say I find the report and it says what I have claimed - how would that change your opinion? Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 (edited) It is clear that Officer Foster, who was standing near Sam Holland atop the TU at Z-313, ran to a place in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313 where he would have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. What seems clear is that you continue to cite something as fact even though you have been repeatedly asked if the photographic record supports what you are citing as fact. The question still stands and I await your answer. Since there was no navigable pathway along the fence because of the blocking cars parked up against the fence, Ed's alleged sniper might have been delayed in his RUN to the steam pipe, in which case Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313 would then have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. Miles, do you have any evidence that there was a car(s) parked up against the fence or are you just citing assumptions as fact once again? I also see that you have finally stopped saying that Holland ran behind the fence immediately following the assassination to now pushing that time back to one minute. Maybe you'd like to acknowledge that Hoffman said he saw someone walking the fence line - Gordon Arnold said that he walked the fence looking for a spot to film the parade - and that Holland said he walked the fence looking for shell casings and tracks. It seems only right that seeing this is an education forum (rather than a propaganda forum) that you let your readers know why you are ignoring three independent witnesses. Think of running 40 yards, with rifle at port arms, down a pathway that narrowed to one to two feet in width, with a 5 foot fence on your left, which had protruding vertical metal posts protruding from its surface (!), and a row of 2 ft. high car bumpers hemming you in on your right. Miles, the distance between the fence and the cars according to Holland's drawing is every bit as wide, if not wider, than a checkout lane at a grocery store and for MOST people those lanes are plenty wide enough to move through them with ease. Bill Miller Edited August 5, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Rheberg Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Good Day.... There is a 28 minute "RealPlayer" formatted video interview completed in 1997 with ED HOFFMAN available for everyone here (Fair warning, the video clarity and brightness could be better).... http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/...p?media_id=5349 ....Does anyone have the computer hardware capability to capture the diagrams HOFFMAN presents in this interview? Thank You, in advance. Don Seems to be an error in your link above. Miles Mr. BALL - Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed - turned onto Elm from Houston. Mr. FOSTER - After he came onto Elm I watched the men on the track more than I was him. Then I heard this loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening. Mr. BALL - What did you see was happening? Mr. FOSTER - Saw the president slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up. Mr. BALL - You saw that did you? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And what did you do then? Mr. FOSTER - Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right - to the left - around to the bookstore. It is clear that Officer Foster, who was standing near Sam Holland atop the TU at Z-313, ran to a place in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313 where he would have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. Since there was no navigable pathway along the fence because of the blocking cars parked up against the fence, Ed's alleged sniper might have been delayed in his RUN to the steam pipe, in which case Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313 would then have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. The distance from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe is 40 yards. Think of running 40 yards, with rifle at port arms, down a pathway that narrowed to one to two feet in width, with a 5 foot fence on your left, which had protruding vertical metal posts protruding from its surface (!), and a row of 2 ft. high car bumpers hemming you in on your right. You would break your legs. I finally got the stream to work on Don's link above. It is a recap of Ed's book Eyewitness. But there was one astonishing addition. Ed says (signs) very precisely & clearly to his interpreter (co-author of Eyewitness, Ron Friedrich) that he (Ed) was interviewed in 1967 by an FBI agent who did not know sign language, but who, at the end of the interview, using pantomime: pointed at Ed, put his fingers to his lips showing a hush sign, pointed to his back (wallet) pocket, showed Ed a hand showing 5 fingers, followed by two fists (the hearing person's sign for 500 as Ed tells it). Ed says that he clearly understood by this pantomime that the FBI agent was bribing him to keep silent about what Ed had just told the FBI agent that he had seen on Nov. 22, 1963. The bribe was $500. Incredible! In more ways than one. There is no joy in Mudville, mighty Casey has struck out. . Miles, 1. You say: "It is clear that Officer Foster, who was standing near Sam Holland atop the TU at Z-313, ran to a place in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313 where he would have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out." No, it's not clear that Foster ran ANYWHERE in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313. Please answer the question that has been posed to you several times. I'll ask it again. **Where do you come up with Foster running at 20 to 30 seconds after Z313?** 2. You further say: ". . . in which case Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313. . . " But Dillard 3 shows Holland watching Tom Atkins running after camera car #1 at about 55-60 seconds post Z313. **Where do you come up with Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313?** Thanks. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) Good Day.... There is a 28 minute "RealPlayer" formatted video interview completed in 1997 with ED HOFFMAN available for everyone here (Fair warning, the video clarity and brightness could be better).... http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/viewers/...p?media_id=5349 ....Does anyone have the computer hardware capability to capture the diagrams HOFFMAN presents in this interview? Thank You, in advance. Don Seems to be an error in your link above. Miles Mr. BALL - Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed - turned onto Elm from Houston. Mr. FOSTER - After he came onto Elm I watched the men on the track more than I was him. Then I heard this loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening. Mr. BALL - What did you see was happening? Mr. FOSTER - Saw the president slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up. Mr. BALL - You saw that did you? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And what did you do then? Mr. FOSTER - Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right - to the left - around to the bookstore. It is clear that Officer Foster, who was standing near Sam Holland atop the TU at Z-313, ran to a place in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313 where he would have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. Since there was no navigable pathway along the fence because of the blocking cars parked up against the fence, Ed's alleged sniper might have been delayed in his RUN to the steam pipe, in which case Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313 would then have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out. The distance from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe is 40 yards. Think of running 40 yards, with rifle at port arms, down a pathway that narrowed to one to two feet in width, with a 5 foot fence on your left, which had protruding vertical metal posts protruding from its surface (!), and a row of 2 ft. high car bumpers hemming you in on your right. You would break your legs. I finally got the stream to work on Don's link above. It is a recap of Ed's book Eyewitness. But there was one astonishing addition. Ed says (signs) very precisely & clearly to his interpreter (co-author of Eyewitness, Ron Friedrich) that he (Ed) was interviewed in 1967 by an FBI agent who did not know sign language, but who, at the end of the interview, using pantomime: pointed at Ed, put his fingers to his lips showing a hush sign, pointed to his back (wallet) pocket, showed Ed a hand showing 5 fingers, followed by two fists (the hearing person's sign for 500 as Ed tells it). Ed says that he clearly understood by this pantomime that the FBI agent was bribing him to keep silent about what Ed had just told the FBI agent that he had seen on Nov. 22, 1963. The bribe was $500. Incredible! In more ways than one. There is no joy in Mudville, mighty Casey has struck out. . Miles, 1. You say: "It is clear that Officer Foster, who was standing near Sam Holland atop the TU at Z-313, ran to a place in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313 where he would have seen Ed's alleged scenario play out." No, it's not clear that Foster ran ANYWHERE in 20 to 30 seconds after Z-313. Please answer the question that has been posed to you several times. I'll ask it again. **Where do you come up with Foster running at 20 to 30 seconds after Z313?** 2. You further say: ". . . in which case Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313. . . " But Dillard 3 shows Holland watching Tom Atkins running after camera car #1 at about 55-60 seconds post Z313. **Where do you come up with Sam Holland running at 60 seconds post Z-313?** Thanks. Ken Ken, As I have explained to you before several times I do not have available time to do research tasks which are easy to do but which can be time consuming, especially if I have to repeat these tasks for your convenience. You need to do this kind of elementary, housekeeping research on your own. Again, to repeat, you will have to do your own research in future without my help. Mr. BALL - Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed - turned onto Elm from Houston. Mr. FOSTER - After he came onto Elm I watched the men on the track more than I was him. Then I heard this loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening. Mr. BALL - What did you see was happening? Mr. FOSTER - Saw the president slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up. Mr. BALL - You saw that did you? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And what did you do then? Mr. FOSTER - Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right - to the left - around to the bookstore. Gary Mack estimates that the limo arrived at the east side of the TU 10 seconds after Z-313. My own calculations are 8 to 9 seconds. Foster's distance to run from his position at 10 seconds post Z-313 is 19 yards to reach a LOS of Hoffman's tableau at the north end of the TU. (See Photo) Foster would cover this distance in less that 10 seconds. However, if he took a full 10 seconds, then 10 sec. + 10 sec. = 20 sec. I say 20 to 30 sec. to allow for any variation. Sam Holland, according to Gary Mack & other researchers, is seen in Dillard 3 40 to 60 sec. post shooting. Sam was a fast runner as is seen in films of him running to the steam pipe. So, 10 sec. to cover 19 yards. Sam, therefore, could have arrived & would have arrived at Ed's tableau at between 50 to 70 sec. I said 60 sec., as an approximation of the probable. This means that known & identified witnesses could have & would have seen Ed's tableau, in addition to the other spectators ( McVey, KATY RR agent, etc.) already nearby the steam pipe at Z-313. No one saw Ed's tableau or reported seeing it, except Ed, from 225 yards away. Edited August 5, 2007 by Miles Scull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Ken,As I have explained to you before several times I do not have available time to do research tasks which are easy to do but which can be time consuming, Miles, Did you ever consider that if you took the opposite approach that possibly you wouldn't make so many misstatements of fact such as Holland allegedly running into the RR yard after the limo passed below him! Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Sam was a fast runner as is seen in films of him running to the steam pipe. So, 10 sec. to cover 19 yards.Sam, therefore, could have arrived & would have arrived at Ed's tableau at between 50 to 70 sec. I said 60 sec., as an approximation of the probable. Sam couldn't have been too fast of a runner because you have made numerous postings saying that he left the underpass immediately after the shooting and yet he is still seen in Dillard's photo and Bell's film. Oh yes ... about "Sam" - As has been repeatedly posted in response to your past misstatements of fact ... SAM said he went straight for the back of the colonnade and didn't get to Ed's shooter location until about 3 to 4 minutes later. Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) Sam was a fast runner as is seen in films of him running to the steam pipe. So, 10 sec. to cover 19 yards.Sam, therefore, could have arrived & would have arrived at Ed's tableau at between 50 to 70 sec. I said 60 sec., as an approximation of the probable. Sam couldn't have been too fast of a runner because you have made numerous postings saying that he left the underpass immediately after the shooting and yet he is still seen in Dillard's photo and Bell's film. Oh yes ... about "Sam" - As has been repeatedly posted in response to your past misstatements of fact ... SAM said he went straight for the back of the colonnade and didn't get to Ed's shooter location until about 3 to 4 minutes later. Bill Miller No, no indeed, because my proof of the invalidity of Ed's alleged story is set out irrefutably in the "Weitzman Report" which you have promised to produce, but which you have persistently failed to produce because, obviously, it does not exist & never did exist. These repeated misstatements of fact on your part seriously compromise your position as a believable commentator. Strange. . Edited August 5, 2007 by Miles Scull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Some of the referrals to other members on this thread and this page leave quite a bit to be desired. Members with patronizing attitudes towards fellow members will not be tolerated. I will leave the posts here unedited. Treat each other with respect, if that is too much to ask, don't post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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