The art of disinformation.

[Len Colby]

So Duane how many of those "25 ways" apply to Jack's post on this thread or his posts in general? What about your posts such when you without provocation call your opponents "idiots"?

"without provocation " ?? ... You have to be joking !

Disinfo artist Colby ..... As long as you continue to pretend that you can't discern the difference between DEFENSIVE BLOWS from OFFENSIVE BLOWS , then your post replies to me , and also to Jack , will be nothing but dishonest garbage .

I kid you not. Explain to me how this comment of yours qualifies as a “defensive blow”

Jack ... I can't believe that you are still wasting your valuable time posting on a forum where those who defend Apollo play such ridiculous games .

You remember that old expression don't you ? .... "Never argue with an idiot . They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=98416

The 25 Rules of Disinformation only apply to those who spread it around as profusely as you do ... Not to people who are attempting to expose government lies , scams , conspiracies and cover-ups .

So when Jack and you and others who agree with you engage in such tactics they are OK (“don’t apply”) but when those who disagree you supposedly do so it is reprehensible?

Thank you for posting that ... You just proved my point ... I posted that in a thread where several of you had all ganged up on Jack again with your typical tactics of insulting and attacking the messenger because you don't like the message .

I don't suppose you can cite any example of the above the debate was fairly civil till Jack called his opponents "liars" and you called them idiots. Evan, Dave and Kevin etc debunked Jack's points they didn't attack him personally.

I was merely coming to Jack's DEFENSE ! ... Thus , DEFENSIVE BLOW .

I don't remember where either one of us ever insulted anyone here without plenty of provocation.

The cited thread was a perfect example

[Guest Stephen Turner]

During the 1960s the American SDS was literally riddled with FBI agents and informers, these Guys were always the wildest, most out there members, urging others in the group to ever more extreeme political acts, usually involving violence. The aim was twofold, 1 discredit the SDS in the eyes of wider society, 2, pervert its original, peaceful aims. This is a powerful and distructive strategy, and, in a essentially open group, almost impossible to defend against.

Within days of 911, rumours and conjecture were spreading like weeds over the internet, and certain newspapers who seem to specialise in damage limitation and left gatekeeping. A work colleague told me, less than two days after the event, that he knew for a fact that all Jewish workers in the Towers had been told not to go to work that day, another, within the same timespan, that it was obvious that a missile, not a plane, had impacted with the Pentagon. When I asked them where they wrer getting this "information" I was told "its all over the net"

In my own research around 911, I have often come across similar wild, totally unsubstantiated claims, many would appear to be the ravings of unhinged minds, "there were no arab hijackers" " the planes were a 3d image" " UFOs can be seen observing the carnage" etc, etc etc. Madness right? or disinformationists taring anybody who wants to look deeper into possible Government insider knowledge, with the old Wo Wo brush.

OK back on track, as requested. The SDS was also significantly influenced by the SWP youth wing.

COINTELPRO-INFIL SWP was a factor.

Primarily this was to stir up fights within the SDS and to seed disinfo and to provoke 'radical' actions and infighting that would justify authoritarian crackdowns.

The SDS was one of the wiser student movements and were quite aware of a lot of what was going on as can be seen in many underground publications of those days.

In the mainstream media, and Nixon's desperate continuing search for the destruction of the student movement and the hounding of leaders and draft dodgers while the Viet question with the broadening of it with the carpet bombings and the desperate attempts to destroy the Ho Chih Minh Trail, the bombing of Cambodia, the Cleveland, Jackson and Kent state massacres, the disruption of scholarships to students, the CIA campus drives and the YAF actions and the selective NSA leadership-CIA ties revelations all served to polarise and also to politisize otherwise moderates.

Then there were the days of rage, Chicago, the Weathermen and Manson.

SDS-INFIL was a major aspect of COINTELPRO with many documents supporting it.

They (the FBI) introduced a destabilising influence in what was really one of the tighter student organisations. (Bruce Jones of the later Costa Rica Contra Drug infamy, (and SOF publisher Brown pal (associated with elemnets of interest in the Kennedy assassination) ), flirted with the SDS, he also was a leading user of new tech like computers in his actions).

They (the SDS) did in large part survive nationally, in spite of the deep localised splits, and were very effective in the anti war movement.

Many of its leaders went on to other things, in a number of directions, activist and opportunistic. A number of them, with Fourth International (Trotskyist) affiliations, partook in deep entry (deep cover) industrial actions. Others opted for degrees of 'respectabilty', which in some instances (like Jones) makes one question their true agendas, oppotrunists or agency assets?

John, thanks for that, great post. I am wondering, do you have any evidence as to possible COINTELPRO penetration of the Weather underground, particullarly concerning their increasingly violent manifesto?

[Peter McKenna]

Duane, the final word is yours.

Now, please back on topic.

If I'm not mistaken the Weathermen, a quite violent group, were an offshoot of the SDS, who splintered off to pursue a more radical agenda.

[Peter McKenna]

Duane, the final word is yours.

Now, please back on topic.

For some reference info.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html

[Peter McKenna]

From the bio of Bernardine Dorn:

Living underground as a fugitive in San Francisco and Chicago for 11 years, she and her husband turned themselves in by 1980. Federal charges for conspiracy to bomb buildings had been dropped due to illegal evidence gathering by J. Edgar Hoover's COINTELPRO-style infiltration of the Weathermen organization. Dohrn got away with it all, paying a $1500 fine for a minor bail-jumping offense and later doing a little time for refusing to testify against a cohort, Kathy Boudin. Dohrn's adopted son Chesa is the biological son of Boudin, incarcerated for armed robbery when the child was 14 months old.

[Peter McKenna]

From the bio of Bernardine Dorn:

Living underground as a fugitive in San Francisco and Chicago for 11 years, she and her husband turned themselves in by 1980. Federal charges for conspiracy to bomb buildings had been dropped due to illegal evidence gathering by J. Edgar Hoover's COINTELPRO-style infiltration of the Weathermen organization. Dohrn got away with it all, paying a $1500 fine for a minor bail-jumping offense and later doing a little time for refusing to testify against a cohort, Kathy Boudin. Dohrn's adopted son Chesa is the biological son of Boudin, incarcerated for armed robbery when the child was 14 months old.

Anyway, during the time of the SDS, and their much more violent offspring, the weathermen, I remember that they were self admitted revolutionaries, and were involved in robbing an armoured car, banks, and had bombed buildings.

Although COINTELPRO may have gone along with some of the more violent actions, I doubt if they needed to spark that level of reaction. The writings of the more revolutionary members at the time was pretty reactionary stuff. I was in my last years of high school at the time and can remember some of the incidents, like the time several members blew themselves up making bombs.

It was likely that although the FBI was likely rabid to contain them, they probably didn't incite the revolutionary Weather underground to armed criminal acts.

[Evan Burton]

One of the most difficult things would be - using Stephen's example - trying to differentiate a "nutter" from a "disinfo agent".

I mean, we have all probably encountered people who genuinely believe in what we would personally consider to be an "outlandish" theory. Are all of these people nutters? Are all of these people government agents? Some of each? How do we tell?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

One of the most difficult things would be - using Stephen's example - trying to differentiate a "nutter" from a "disinfo agent".

I mean, we have all probably encountered people who genuinely believe in what we would personally consider to be an "outlandish" theory. Are all of these people nutters? Are all of these people government agents? Some of each? How do we tell?

And therein Evan lies its potential. As I indicated in my opening post, I have no idea if Government agencies are using such tactics on the internet, but given the historical examples I used its not much of a stretch to conclude that the likelyhood exists. Discreditation by association, or false example, simple, easy and a bugger to prove.

A little personal example if you will. In 1974, as a young, committed trade unionist I was one of a party helping to man Miner's picket lines in Yorkshire. Without provocation mounted Police, with battons drawn attacked the pickets, on the second charge the Miner's began to defend themselves, mainly by hurling bricks, and anything else that came to hand, in a purely defensive gesture. Watching the BBC news report, later that night these incidents had been reversed, making it look as if the police were responding to brick throwing, violent, out of control (and probably Communist Miners) In an open attempt to discredit the strike and its leaders. I have never truly trusted ANY mainstream media since.

[Steve Ulman]

For some reference info.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html

Peter-

Good info regarding the Weathermen.

It would seem that some of the leaders of the group embraced violence on their own without help from the FBI, but you never know how that initial seed of thought was planted. Was the breakup of SDS and subsequent forming of the Weathermen a "successful" result of "dis-info" actions or an "unfortunate" result? We'll probably never know.

Not having done any research into this, I have a few questions -

First - regarding timing - just how long was SDS active, and how effective was its message before the first attempt to infiltrate it?

Also, was the initial infiltration for criminal investigation purposes (intelligence gathering) and then morphed into an attempt to manipulate the group's actions, or was the intent to manipulate the group from the start?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

For some reference info.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html

Peter-

Good info regarding the Weathermen.

It would seem that some of the leaders of the group embraced violence on their own without help from the FBI, but you never know how that initial seed of thought was planted. Was the breakup of SDS and subsequent forming of the Weathermen a "successful" result of "dis-info" actions or an "unfortunate" result? We'll probably never know.

Not having done any research into this, I have a few questions -

First - regarding timing - just how long was SDS active, and how effective was its message before the first attempt to infiltrate it?

Also, was the initial infiltration for criminal investigation purposes (intelligence gathering) and then morphed into an attempt to manipulate the group's actions, or was the intent to manipulate the group from the start?

Steve. If memory serves the main moves to infiltrate, and manipulate the SDS began when they became vocal about the war in Vietnam. I will need to check my files and get back to you.

[Steve Ulman]

Steve. If memory serves the main moves to infiltrate, and manipulate the SDS began when they became vocal about the war in Vietnam. I will need to check my files and get back to you.

Thanks

[Peter McKenna]

For some reference info.

http://www.geocities.com/southernscene/edu3.html

Peter-

Good info regarding the Weathermen.

It would seem that some of the leaders of the group embraced violence on their own without help from the FBI, but you never know how that initial seed of thought was planted. Was the breakup of SDS and subsequent forming of the Weathermen a "successful" result of "dis-info" actions or an "unfortunate" result? We'll probably never know.

Not having done any research into this, I have a few questions -

First - regarding timing - just how long was SDS active, and how effective was its message before the first attempt to infiltrate it?

Also, was the initial infiltration for criminal investigation purposes (intelligence gathering) and then morphed into an attempt to manipulate the group's actions, or was the intent to manipulate the group from the start?

Thanks Steve,

As I remember, when Nixon took office in 1968-1969, one of his first orders of business was to investigate communist infiltration of student anti war organizations. Nixon believed that anti war sentiments were inserted by communists agents The SDS, who I beleive originated at the Berkely campus, had been one of the more outspoken student organizations against the Vietnam war.

Nixon, whose paranoia was the stuff of legend, ordred the FBI, Hoover, to put together a counterintel op to infiltrate radical student organizations who might be tragets of communist infiltration, likely the SDS was a prime target.

There are several threads on the origins of COINTELPRO, but I'll try and do some research in my spare time. I'm not sure of the chronology of events, but a precise chronology would likely lend a clarifying aspect

[John Dolva]

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents/er/sovcom/

go to Basic Folder Search > letter S.

Get listing of some 500 odd directly SDS related documents from many different view points. I suggets reading as much as possible, as it goes from the formation of the SDS in 1962, through to various factional struggles and the last documents detailing the Weathermen and the Days of Rage.

These are a collection of official SDS publications, newspaper clippings and various reports. So, the views are divergent, but by reading them one gains a fairly good overview of the SDS, its factional struggles and names of persons involved.

[Peter McKenna]

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents/er/sovcom/

go to Basic Folder Search > letter S.

Get listing of some 500 odd directly SDS related documents from many different view points. I suggets reading as much as possible, as it goes from the formation of the SDS in 1962, through to various factional struggles and the last documents detailing the Weathermen and the Days of Rage.

These are a collection of official SDS publications, newspaper clippings and various reports. So, the views are divergent, but by reading them one gains a fairly good overview of the SDS, its factional struggles and names of persons involved.

Thanks John, excellent link.

I've browsed through several of the documents, they are quite enlightening. I didn't know they were founded in Michigan. Also a great deal of their early work was civil rights oriented, since it was pre Vietnam war era. Their agenda seemed to be just left of liberal, but the SDS promoted reforms of moderate and conservative positions. Many interesting documents and references there. I'll be reading for a while.

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

This is a seriously outdated book, as Big Brother has been on more Steroids than Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire combined. Nevertheless, I consider it worth reading today, largely because it would surprise most people--even on this forum-- about how little it took to become the subject of infiltration efforts.

http://www.amazon.com/Protectors-Privilege...a/dp/0520080351

Plenty of good footnotes for the paranoid!