Is This Black Dog Man

[Alan Healy]

It gets rather frustrating when someone seemingly is trying to confuse rather than to learn. The grass in which Arnold stood that runs from the shelter down to the street IS west of the steps. The walkway and steps are west of the wall. I read how Gary Mack explained this to you, so why do you continue to pretend not to get such an obvious point?

Arnold never stood anywhere he wasn't in the plaza that day.

He said he stood west of the steps & he was thankfully made to specify.

A person cannot be appear to be behind the wall when we are looking from from the Moorman position if they are west of the steps though, that is what's going over your heads.

Jack has pin-pointed the "Arnold" position as "just north of the top step" & I can believe that much more readilly because he has no reason to make sure this figure lined up with Blackdogman like you do.

What he never noticed is how much shorter his Arnold stand-in is to the interpreted figure in M5.

He should of been standing closer to the wall, further east.

Anyway, on Don's map I've cut & pasted the Compass to show others, that the blue square that represents the "Arnold" position in M5 is NW of the steps, not west.

If that was Arnold & if he remembered were he stood correctly he would of said "the steps were SE of me" not "east".

In order for you to help yourselves you have to recognise that there is a problem, saying there is no problem when there clearly is, makes you look foolish.

The grass in which Arnold stood that runs from the shelter down to the street IS west of the steps.

The walkway and steps are west of the wall.

Incorrect.

Only part of it is to the west of the steps & that part is visible in Moorman, none of it that is west of the steps is hidden behind the wall.

The steps are obviously not west of the wall & if you are not pulling my chain & honestly believe this then either proove it or shut up.

Below are the two sun patches seen in both the Moorman and Betzner photos. Note the dark spot seen within both patches - does it tell us anything? Sure it does. It tells us that we are looking at the same individual whereas as the limo came towards the knoll - this person turned his body slightly to his right as if to be tracking the President with a movie camera, which is exactly what Arnold said he had done.

Bill Miller

The only thing it tells me is that you are still ignoring the other 99% of the BDM figure in Betzner that has positively nothing in common with the M5 illusion.

Did Arnold say he was crouching at the very corner of the wall resting his right arm on the dog leg & wearing dark clothing?

No he did not, so it ain't him & your Arnold interpretation in M5 must be wrong.

Start looking again before it's too late.

[Alan Healy]

Anyway, on Don's map I've cut & pasted the Compass to show others, that the blue square that represents the "Arnold" position in M5 is NW of the steps, not west.

[Bill Miller]

Arnold never stood anywhere he wasn't in the plaza that day.

He said he stood west of the steps & he was thankfully made to specify.

A person cannot be appear to be behind the wall when we are looking from from the Moorman position if they are west of the steps though, that is what's going over your heads.

Below is a photo taken of Royce Beirma as seen looking south down the walkway. Royce is standing in the grass which is west of the walkway ... that is directly connected to the steps. Royce is lined up to the figure in Moorman's photo known as Gordon Arnold and it can be said that Royce is west of the steps.

Bill

Edited September 27, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Jack has pin-pointed the "Arnold" position as "just north of the top step" & I can believe that much more readilly because he has no reason to make sure this figure lined up with Blackdogman like you do.

It is a hoot when someone who has never been to the plaza tries telling someone else who has logged hundreds of hours there as to what the layout is. Would you like for me to post the crossing lines again?? You remember those lines - they were the LOS to the BDM in both the Willis and Betzner photos and then the same from where Moorman stood - all three lines crossed at the same place, so with that being said - tell me again how I made something line up with BDM??? It seems to me that the crossing lines of sight from each photographing location is what made Arnold line up with the BDM.

Bill

Edited August 4, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day.... GORDON ARNOLD's very specific claims about his, supposed, attack location (which is not supported by even a single piece of any during-attack, multiple, photo evidences) that Arnold gave during his detailed videotaped interview, June 6, 1989, to the "Sixth Floor Museum" oral history program, available here.... http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

Conover then asks Arnold where he was standing in relation to the north pergola steps, to which Arnold claims, "OK. OK. The steps would be almost----I would say in front of me, but it’s not in front of me because I'm standing askew to the steps----more towards the street than I am the steps." "And I'm up as… I'm about three feet from the fence."

Please recall that the 1978 "Dallas Morning News" photo that shows Arnold standing noticeably much, much closer to the picket fence than the retaining wall that he, then, by 1988 stood closer to in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy."

Conover then asks, "Between the steps and the fence?" to which Arnold replies, "Yes."

**NOTE** that Arnold claims he was BETWEEN the steps and picket fence ....In other words, by his own words, Arnold is specifically claiming he was specifically in the grass, between, the picket fence and the steps, only about three feet from the picket fence,

....but, Arnold was not on the grass, between the east edge of the sidewalk and the west edge of the retaining wall

....Arnold was not on the sitting bench,

....Arnold was not on the west edge of the steps,

....Arnold was not on the east edge of the steps,

....Arnold was not on the steps or the top step,

....Arnold was not on the pergola sidewalk,

....Arnold was not on the west edge of the sidewalk,

....Arnold was not on the east edge of the sidewalk.

Conover then asks, "So, the steps were East of you?" to which Arnold replies, "Right."

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

DISCOVERY: ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

"When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

- Sherlock Holmes, "A Study In Scarlet" (1887) by A.C. DOYLE

Edited August 4, 2007 by Don Roberdeau

[Don Roberdeau]

Arnold never stood anywhere he wasn't in the plaza that day.

He said he stood west of the steps & he was thankfully made to specify.

A person cannot be appear to be behind the wall when we are looking from from the Moorman position if they are west of the steps though, that is what's going over your heads.

Below is a photo taken of Royce Beirma as seen looking south down the walkway. Royce is standing in the grass which is west of the walkway ... that is directly connected to the steps. Royce is lined up to the figure in Moorman's photo known as Gordon Arnold and it can be said that Royce is west of the steps.

Bill

Good Day Bill.... In your staged photo, ROYCE nor TONY is not anywhere close to being in the grass only 3' from the picket fence, well west of the pergola steps (yet, as you are aware, a specific location spot visible in several 11-22-63 attack photographic references), as ARNOLD, himself, very specifically claimed on June 6, 1989 to the SFM oral histories program. http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

DISCOVERY: ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

"When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

- Sherlock Holmes, "A Study In Scarlet" (1887) by A.C. DOYLE

Edited August 4, 2007 by Don Roberdeau

[Jack White]

Anyway, on Don's map I've cut & pasted the Compass to show others, that the blue square that represents the "Arnold" position in M5 is NW of the steps, not west.

I have NEVER seen a person in Dealey Plaza with a COMPASS to

decide the difference between WEST and NORTHWEST. People

rely on the SUN for directions. In the morning, the sun is behind

the downtown skyscrapers = east; the sun sets behind the

triple underpass = west. The curvature of the street is a little

disorienting also, unless one looks at Main Street, which runs

east-west, because Elm in the kill zone does not. Also the

curvature of the pergola is disorienting in the same way.

Jack

[Jack White]

Arnold never stood anywhere he wasn't in the plaza that day.

He said he stood west of the steps & he was thankfully made to specify.

A person cannot be appear to be behind the wall when we are looking from from the Moorman position if they are west of the steps though, that is what's going over your heads.

Below is a photo taken of Royce Beirma as seen looking south down the walkway. Royce is standing in the grass which is west of the walkway ... that is directly connected to the steps. Royce is lined up to the figure in Moorman's photo known as Gordon Arnold and it can be said that Royce is west of the steps.

Bill

In my opinion, Royce is positioned within inches of the same spot that Nigel Turner

determined when taking his reconstruction photo. That was twenty years ago,

but the figures I remember were eighteen inches west of the sidewalk and two/three

feet north of the south end of the sidewalk. That is where Royce is standing.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Please recall that the 1978 "Dallas Morning News" photo that shows Arnold standing noticeably much, much closer to the picket fence than the retaining wall that he, then, by 1988 stood closer to in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy."

With no particular person in mind - I will say this once again so those with bad memories can have a refresher course offered to them ... I have personally spoken to Jay Godwin and Earl Golz about that 1978 photo of Arnold and both men were surprised that anyone would be thinking that photo was supposed to be a recreation shot of any kind. Both men said independently of one another that it was just a random photo whereas they had Gordon stand out on the knoll while Godwin takes Arnold's photo.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

In my opinion, Royce is positioned within inches of the same spot that Nigel Turner

determined when taking his reconstruction photo. That was twenty years ago,

but the figures I remember were eighteen inches west of the sidewalk and two/three

feet north of the south end of the sidewalk. That is where Royce is standing.

Jack

I would like to add to what Jack said and address something Don wrote which is a misconception on someone's part. Groden and I staged the Badge Man images as well and Mike Brown played Gordon Arnold. Mike was positioned by sight with a two way radio and then asked to hold his position after the test picture. We then went back up the knoll and saw that Mike was almost on the same spot as Royce Beirma in the photo already posted. Depending on a person's size, the distance from the wall they are, and whether or not they are standing on something to replicate the mound of dirt Arnold claimed to have stood on .... these things all factor into the mix.

Now about Arnold having a belly .... I don't know any young serviceman who has a belly as if to mean they are getting fat in the midsection. What I see is Arnold having his pants pulled up high and his shirt somewhat bunched which is causing many of the shading effects where the sun is shining down upon him.

About Arnold saying he was 3' from the fence ... Arnold didn't live long after TMWKK series and his memory may have been somewhat off by that point in his life, after all he had obviously meant to say that the man who approached him showed Gordon a SS badge, but instead had said the guy was with the CIA. Just prior to the assassination, Arnold first came onto the knoll and stood by the tree, which would put him only 3' from the fence - Did Gordon get that point in time confused with where he stood when the shooting started? Did Gordon end up only 3' from the fence when he dove to the ground? It's possible. What I do know is that the Arnold seen in Moorman's photo is not 3' from the fence and here is why .... The fence is 5' tall and in Moorman's photo the fence comes almost up (but not quite) to the top of the concrete wall. Gordon's waist appears visible in the Badge Man enhancement. The closer Gordon is to the fence, the the higher his waist must be to be seen above the height of the 5' high fence. Because Mary is looking uphill - anyone backing up from the wall and heading back to the fence will start to sink when seen over the top of the concrete wall ... like a ship sailing over the horizon. For Gordon to be only 3' from the fence and still have his waist seen over the height of the fence - Gordon would need to be on a 2' to 3' high mound of dirt and no way that was the case. Only backing away from the wall to the place where Royce, Mike, and Gordon are seen could account for what is seen in Moorman's photo. That location is just off the walkway.

Bill

Edited August 4, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Please recall that the 1978 "Dallas Morning News" photo that shows Arnold standing noticeably much, much closer to the picket fence than the retaining wall that he, then, by 1988 stood closer to in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy."

With no particular person in mind - I will say this once again so those with bad memories can have a refresher course offered to them ... I have personally spoken to Jay Godwin and Earl Golz about that 1978 photo of Arnold and both men were surprised that anyone would be thinking that photo was supposed to be a recreation shot of any kind. Both men said independently of one another that it was just a random photo whereas they had Gordon stand out on the knoll while Godwin takes Arnold's photo.

Bill Miller

I have to agree. They were not shooting a reconstruction photo. They asked him to pose

ON THE KNOLL. It likely was too shady by the sidewalk, so they asked him to move into

the sunlight.

Jack

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day Jack & Bill.... I realize that you both have 10's, or 100's, or, maybe even, 1000's+ of your personaltime hours chosen to be invested and publicly stated about ARNOLD's un-substantiated claims (100's or 1000's+ hours much like the failed "Moorman #5 was captured while standing in Elm Street" non-sense, the failed "the Zapruder film was deliberately painted on and drastically changed and so was some of the other films & photos" non-sense, the failed "Moorman #5 was captured at Z-312" non-sense, and the failed, utterly silly, "there was an assassin up in the 'badge man' tree" sheer comic book non-sense)....

But, you both are transparently trying to dodge, and you, both, are spinning only Yourself, bigtime, by ignoring GORDON ARNOLD's very own words, and his very own specific claims about his, supposed, very own specific attack location (which is not supported by even a single piece of any during-or-post-attack, multiple, photo evidences, and not supported by even a single during-or-post-attack witness) that Arnold gave during his very detailed videotaped interview, June 6, 1989, to the "Sixth Floor Museum" oral history program, available for everyone here.... http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

Conover then asks Arnold where he was standing in relation to the north pergola steps, to which Arnold claims, "OK. OK. The steps would be almost----I would say in front of me, but it’s not in front of me because I'm standing askew to the steps----more towards the street than I am the steps." "And I'm up as… I'm about three feet from the fence."

Please recall that the 1978 "Dallas Morning News" photo that shows Arnold standing noticeably much, much closer to the picket fence than the retaining wall that he, then, by 1988 stood closer to in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy."

Take note.... the 1978 photo ARNOLD posed location is very, very, Very close to the same 3' from the picket fence that ARNOLD claimed on tape to the SFM in 1989.

Conover then asks, "Between the steps and the fence?" to which Arnold replies, "Yes."

Conover then asks, "So, the steps were East of you?" to which Arnold replies, "Right."

**NOTE** that Arnold claims he was BETWEEN the steps and picket fence ....In other words, by his own words, Arnold is specifically claiming he was specifically in the grass, between, the picket fence and the steps, only about three feet from the picket fence,

....but, Arnold was not on the grass, between the east edge of the sidewalk and the west edge of the retaining wall

....Arnold was not on the sitting bench,

....Arnold was not on the west edge of the steps,

....Arnold was not on the east edge of the steps,

....Arnold was not on the steps or the top step,

....Arnold was not on the pergola sidewalk,

....Arnold was not on the west edge of the sidewalk,

....Arnold was not on the east edge of the sidewalk.

So, will, next, one/both of you choose to, mega-boringly again, try some lame, infantile, ad homenem, brutish, utterly show-your-ass childish, and/or disinfo-agent-provacateur paranoia, with your trying, yet again, to claim that, in your o-pined theory, by 1989 ARNOLD was going senile.... much like what was, with silliness, yet again, failingly claimed about Senator YARBOROUGH's statements directly to Doctor DAVID MURPHY....even though you had judged and theorized your o-pine about Senator YARBOROUGH's statements to Doctor MURPHY without your ever, once, prior to or afterwards, choosing for yourself to speak directly with Senator YARBOROUGH, and, even though, Doctor MURPHY did choose to speak directly with and directly interviewed Senator YARBOROUGH, himself, at length. As you may or may not be aware of, Doctor MURPHY has further stated, unambiguously and very clearly, that during the entire interview Senator YARBOROUGH was not senile, in any way, and that Senator YARBOROUGH was, in fact, still very sharp, still very clear, and, still very lucid.

Making an investment in anything that you sooner or later realize ends up being evidently bad or failed is one thing, we all have done that at one time or another.... But desperately making a choice to hang onto a known bad or known failed investment long past it being not supported by the persons very own claims, long past his very own mutating claims, long past his never-supported-by-a-single-witness claims, and, long past his non-sensical claims that are not supported, at all, by multiple, Dealey Plaza attack nor post-attack photographic evidences is just plain.... well.... foolish.... and, in my experiences.... leads to a sort of poverty.... in this case, a poverty which affects overall credibility, and, could, also, lead to poverty of the Soul, or a poverty of the Team.

Just so it is Crystal Clear, men.... I do not, personally, hate either of you, or anything like that.... far from it!

(in my personal experiences, choosing hate and/or anger is a totally-useless, timewasting, cranky, incapacitating, totally-self-destructive-and-especially-destructive-when-directed-at-those-you-Love emotion, that is almost always chosen out of fear, and/or lack of knowledge, and/or being in self-denial of knowledge)

.... My main concern is that I am simply concerned for Our Team of collected President KENNEDY assassination researchers because you, both, are among the self-choosing group of Dedicated researchers who.... in most case study areas.... seem to be knowledgeable of more of the evidence.... seem to be knowledgeable of more of the intricate details of established evidence and not-so-(yet)-established evidence, testimonies, statements, tests, recreations, etc, etc.... and most times (but, like all of us, not all times) possess the abilities to try to synergize together for everyone the abundant information into what you choose as your publicly stated possible theory(ies).... more so than 98% of The People.

my Real World Experinces are that I always expect more of and from The More Experienced because, demonstratably, The More Experienced a vast majority of the time, ultimately, and tremendously, helps everyone in the long run for the forward advance our T+E+A+M to reach its Goals, wherein....

Together

Everyone

Achieves

More

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

DISCOVERY: ROSEMARY WILLIS 2nd Headsnap; Westward, Ultrafast, & Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, etc

4 Principles

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States

"When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

- Sherlock Holmes, "A Study In Scarlet" (1887) by A.C. DOYLE

[Bill Miller]

Good Day Bill.... In your staged photo, ROYCE nor TONY is not anywhere close to being in the grass only 3' from the picket fence, well west of the pergola steps (yet, as you are aware, a specific location spot visible in several 11-22-63 attack photographic references), as ARNOLD, himself, very specifically claimed on June 6, 1989 to the SFM oral histories program. http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Harping on about Arnold mentioning being 3' from the fence is pure foolishness IMO. Did Arnold say this in the first two decades of telling his story or was it a reference that he may have made a mistake about in his latter years and just prior before his death? My father still calls me by my brothers name, but that doesn't mean the things he said didn't happen or from where they occurred. Like I said - utter foolishness IMO. I have a buddy who goes out into the bush with me and he recounts our adventures at times and gets two points in time mixed up and blended into one event ... who cares - the event did happen - he just screwed up a sequence by confusing it with another.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

But, you both are transparently trying to dodge, and you, both, are spinning only Yourself, bigtime, by ignoring GORDON ARNOLD's very own words, and his very own specific claims about his, supposed, very own specific attack location (which is not supported by even a single piece of any during-or-post-attack, multiple, photo evidences, and not supported by even a single during-or-post-attack witness) that Arnold gave during his very detailed videotaped interview, June 6, 1989, to the "Sixth Floor Museum" oral history program, available for everyone here.... http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

I will ask Gary Mack to give his views on this because Golz interviewed Arnold in depth in 1978 - Mack in 1982 (I think it was) and Arnold told the same story. In the late 80's he mentioned something about 3' feet from the fence and made a slip by calling the SS agent a CIA agent - so what! Was he confusing the standing next to the tree with the later filming? Maybe someone can do a web search and find out if one's memory gets better with time or does it get worse ... maybe start a whole new thread on that debate. (sigh~)

Bill Miller

[Jack White]

But, you both are transparently trying to dodge, and you, both, are spinning only Yourself, bigtime, by ignoring GORDON ARNOLD's very own words, and his very own specific claims about his, supposed, very own specific attack location (which is not supported by even a single piece of any during-or-post-attack, multiple, photo evidences, and not supported by even a single during-or-post-attack witness) that Arnold gave during his very detailed videotaped interview, June 6, 1989, to the "Sixth Floor Museum" oral history program, available for everyone here.... http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

I will ask Gary Mack to give his views on this because Golz interviewed Arnold in depth in 1978 - Mack in 1982 (I think it was) and Arnold told the same story. In the late 80's he mentioned something about 3' feet from the fence and made a slip by calling the SS agent a CIA agent - so what! Was he confusing the standing next to the tree with the later filming? Maybe someone can do a web search and find out if one's memory gets better with time or does it get worse ... maybe start a whole new thread on that debate. (sigh~)

Bill Miller

Bill Miller will back me up on this: Any "researcher" who lumps Jack White and Bill Miller TOGETHER

cannot be considered an authority on ANYTHING...right Bill? Ninety-eight percent of the time we

disagree.

But it just happens that Miller agrees with facts I studied many years ago regarding Gordon Arnold

and Ed Hoffman. On these two witnesses, I was there when they first became known to researchers.

These johnny-come-latelies who think they know-it-all because they can find one obscure quote

Ed or Gordon made twenty five years later that is different from what they said in the sixties are poor

excuses for objective researchers. They waste their time and ours sniffing false trails.

Too bad.

Jack

Edited August 5, 2007 by Jack White