DeGaulle and Kennedy.

[Tim Gratz]

sorry, my friend, Collins--is that by any chance YOU--your posts sound like HIM--is the xxxx, not I.

The Publisher's Weekly Review of "Support Any Friend: The Making Of the America-Israel Alliance" by Warren Bass.

From Publishers Weekly

A forested memorial in Israel, Yad Kennedy, includes the sculpted stump of a felled tree, a tribute to the president cut down in his youth. To Bass, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, the Kennedy presidency, despite the professional Arabists in the State Department, shifted America's Middle East policy toward Israel, selling arms to the Jewish state, fudging inspections of its nuclear initiative and openly engaging in security cooperation. The intransigence of Arab states toward Israel had eroded the stern limits on arms sales to Israel set by the chilly Eisenhower-Dulles regime. Egypt's Gamal Abdul Nasser had gambled on an unprofitable merger with Syria and a hemorrhaging venture into Yemen to try to create, with Soviet Cold War assistance, a noose around Israel. It failed, and Kennedy's suspicion of Nasser's pro-Soviet position distanced the two men. The young president found that he had little to lose in cautiously supporting Israel, as the Soviet Union was openly cajoling some Arab nationalists into becoming clients who would prove useless while repelling others who feared for their thrones. Despite breaking foreign policy taboos, the Kennedy administration, Bass concedes, hardly addressed the intractable regional problems. Readers may nod over Bass's relentless detail, but he establishes his case that the Kennedy administration was "the true origin of America's alliance" with Israel, illuminating in the process some new and humanizing facets of Kennedy's management style and rehabilitating the savvy and subtle leadership skills of Israeli prime minister Levi Eshkol, successor to the combative David Ben-Gurion. B&w photos.

Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Kirkus Reviews, April 2nd, 2003

"Shows with admirable clarity just how keen a ... practitioner of foreign policy JFK truly was ... in contrast with his ... successors." --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Warren Bass is a senior member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He is an expert on America's foreign relations. Here is the most impoirtant point that I hope others will read--I don't expect you to, Collins.

"The Kennedy administration was the 'true origin of America's alliance' with Israel."

It would make no sense at all for Israel to kill Kennedy. But that won't stop an anti-Semite, who DOES have an agenda.

I will bet you a dollar to a Dunkin Donut you've never read this book, whatever your real name is.

Don't even have the courage to tell the Forum who you are!! My gosh!!

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Do I have an agenda? Well, let me say this: The Jews are God's chosen people and I will get to heaven despite my sins--and they are myriad--because a Jew died for me.

Two of my best friends are Jews, and they have two lovely young boys. Fifty years ago your hero Adolph Hitler would have had husband and father and both of their children brutally murdered.

Therefore I will rise against any one who denies the evils of Naziism (or Communism for that matter; the Communists also hated and killed Jews.

If you are not Collins, have the testicles to identify yourself in your very next post!!

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Wilson]

sorry, my friend, Collins--is that by any chance YOU--your posts sound like HIM--is the xxxx, not I.

The Publisher's Weekly Review of "Support Any Friend: The Making Of the America-Israel Alliance" by Warren Bass.

From Publishers Weekly

A forested memorial in Israel, Yad Kennedy, includes the sculpted stump of a felled tree, a tribute to the president cut down in his youth. To Bass, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, the Kennedy presidency, despite the professional Arabists in the State Department, shifted America's Middle East policy toward Israel, selling arms to the Jewish state, fudging inspections of its nuclear initiative and openly engaging in security cooperation. The intransigence of Arab states toward Israel had eroded the stern limits on arms sales to Israel set by the chilly Eisenhower-Dulles regime. Egypt's Gamal Abdul Nasser had gambled on an unprofitable merger with Syria and a hemorrhaging venture into Yemen to try to create, with Soviet Cold War assistance, a noose around Israel. It failed, and Kennedy's suspicion of Nasser's pro-Soviet position distanced the two men. The young president found that he had little to lose in cautiously supporting Israel, as the Soviet Union was openly cajoling some Arab nationalists into becoming clients who would prove useless while repelling others who feared for their thrones. Despite breaking foreign policy taboos, the Kennedy administration, Bass concedes, hardly addressed the intractable regional problems. Readers may nod over Bass's relentless detail, but he establishes his case that the Kennedy administration was "the true origin of America's alliance" with Israel, illuminating in the process some new and humanizing facets of Kennedy's management style and rehabilitating the savvy and subtle leadership skills of Israeli prime minister Levi Eshkol, successor to the combative David Ben-Gurion. B&w photos.

Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Kirkus Reviews, April 2nd, 2003

"Shows with admirable clarity just how keen a ... practitioner of foreign policy JFK truly was ... in contrast with his ... successors." --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Warren Bass is a senior member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He is an expert on America's foreign relations. Here is the most impoirtant point that I hope others will read--I don't expect you to, Collins.

"The Kennedy administration was the 'true origin of America's alliance' with Israel."

It would make no sense at all for Israel to kill Kennedy. But that won't stop an anti-Semite, who DOES have an agenda.

I will bet you a dollar to a Dunkin Donut you've never read this book, whatever your real name is.

Don't even have the courage to tell the Forum who you are!! My gosh!!

Gratz,You're comical and i owe you a donut.

[Tim Gratz]

See I knew darn well you would refuse to identify yourself, Collins.

You are propbably as much of a cowardly bully as your hero Adolph!

[Mark Wilson]

Do I have an agenda? Well, let me say this: The Jews are God's chosen people and I will get to heaven despite my sins--and they are myriad--because a Jew died for me.

Two of my best friends are Jews, and they have two lovely young boys. Fifty years ago your hero Adolph Hitler would have had husband and father and both of their children brutally murdered.

Therefore I will rise against any one who denies the evils of Naziism (or Communism for that matter; the Communists also hated and killed Jews.

If you are not Collins, have the testicles to identify yourself in your very next post!!

Gratz,i admire you for being honest.This has to be most truthful statement that you've ever posted.

As to your question about my identity,my name is Mark Wilson,I'm not Michael Collins Piper.My profile hasn't changed since i joined the forum.I'll try to get a picture up by the weekend,so you can have a face to toss the nazi,anti semite, and communist compliments to.

[Mark Stapleton]

The theory that the assassination of JFK and the attempts on DeGaulle were linked is also explored in Michel Collins Piper's "Final Judgment", which focuses on the Mossad connection to the assassination of JFK. It is definitely worthy of research.

Pamela,

I agree. As regular readers of the Forum would be aware, I believe Mossad was involved in the assassination. JFK was involved in a bitter dispute with Ben-Gurion over Israel's nuclear weapons at the time of his death. When LBJ moved into the White House, Israel was rewarded by increased military aid and a sham inspection regime which allowed them to become the only nuclear power in the region--something Ben-Gurion and Shimon Peres had promised to JFK would not happen.

Good points,Pamela and Mark.Both JFK and DeGaulle were enemies of Israel's interests,JFK in regards to Israel's nuclear project and DeGaulle in regards to Israel's opposition to Algeria's independence.Final Judgement is a must read,imo,when looking at theories involving the assassination of JFK and the attempted assassination of DeGaulle..It has been awhile since i read Final Judgement.I thought Piper did an outstanding job showing that,coincidently??,many of the same journalists and authors that embraced,promoted,and advertised the "Oswald lone nut Communist assassin did it theory" were also shills for other Israeli interests at later dates...Back on topic,anyone interested in the DeGaulle assassination attempt with in the context of the JFK assassination should read Final Judgement.

Yes, I'm thinking the same way Mark. I haven't looked into the DeGaulle attempts in depth but I think it's possible that the same sponsors were involved. One lesson they would have learned from the 1962 attempt on DeGaulle would have been that if you're shooting at a motor vehicle/ motorcade, then make sure you NOBBLE THE DRIVER. Bill Greer was nobbled, imo. You don't want heroic drivers threatening the whole plan.

The issue of Israel runs through the entire JFK milieu, imo. Israel had strong support within the US media, intelligence agencies and executive in 1963 (and still do now), in part because they readily identified with the anti-Communist paradigm which existed at the time. Some influential players, like JJA, who have been identified as strongly supportive of Israel or perhaps even Mossad, were rabidly anti-Communist. For me another factor is the mainstream media solidarity which has stifled a real look into Dealey Plaza. All the major media players in the US were (and still are) strong supporters of Israel. Cui bono works fine for me but sometimes you need to ignore the hecklers in order to discuss this issue rationally.

[Tim Gratz]

Well, let me then withdraw the personal attacks on you, Mr. Wilson. Although I detest anti-Semitism, I know that Jesus died for anti-Semites, Communists, murderers, slave-traders, etc. and loves each one of them even while he detests their sin.

If you are an intelligent open-minded person I would urge you to read Bass' book. And put aside your anti-semitism if in fact you harbor those prejudices.

Study history. Remember that Ike sided against Israel in the Suez crisis. As Bass writes, JFK knew that the Soviets were making inroads with the Arabs, which is one reason why he entered into the alliance with Israel. The fact that his "deal" with Israel may have been part of his global "chess game" with the Soviets does not make the alliance any less real.

Another truthful statement: I think I have a better sense of things than many of you who are no doubt well-intentioned because I am old enough to be your father--heck, your grandfather--and I started studying politics and history when I was a mere lad of nine! So that is a lot of years of study and reading. Thast is why I even remember the conflict betwen Ike and Anthony Eden over the Suez.

[John Dolva]

Kennedy's Algerian speech should be considered. While it was greeted with 'worry' in France, it also was recognisd as an important contribution.

At this time the USofA was funding and supplying France in the first Indo-China war. (France's colonial imperialistic actions in Vietnam.)

Germany and France were both dependent on USofA support, France in Vietnam and Germany in West Berlin.

Traditionally we have three powers with a long history aliiances and conflict. (consider Creoles and other French influences in the Southern States of the USofA, New Orleans: old Orleans http://www.virtourist.com/europe/orleans/01.htm, the Louisiana history: http://www.gatewayno.com/history/LaPurchase.html ) At this time (late 50's early 60's) France and Germany were 'propaganda enemies'. France has always played a particular role that puts it apart from most other major first world nations. It's fiercely independent, it has a historical 'empathy' with revolution, and it also has strong Arab connections. In a way it is an interface between the west and the east.

The USofA not only 'took over' Frances attempts to keep Vietnam they also armed France with Nuclear Weapons.

It's a complex mix of factional chessplay.

At the time of the assassination of Kennedy (DeGaulle had regular attempts to deal with, perhaps one reason for its presidential details alertness and rapid response) France and Germany were vying for attention, as well as in the European theatre being engaged in a propaganda war. (see the many French and German newspapers of the time)

After the assassination, the first to visit LBJ at his ranch, in Dec 1963 was Germany where Chancellor Erhard (accompanied with the German head of security Ewald Peters (EinsatzgruppenKommando death squad officer exposed by West German researchers in Jan 1964 and arrested and 'committed suicide' in jail) pal of USofA SS presidential detail members,and responsible for security for JFK's German visits(presumably at this time he formed his associations with USofA SS members.) was 'ordered to take gretaer interest in Latin South American USofA actions (This appears to hide some 'unknown' negotiations.). Meanwhile France had been displaced in Indo China.

IOW for France, Kennedy's assassination was concurrent with events that reduced its status in favor of Germany.

[Pamela Brown]

As I have discussed at length on previous threads Michael Piper Collins is a notorious anti-Semite and Holocaust denier. JFK and RFK were great friends of the state of Israel and there is no evidence to support Collins' theory which is obviously fueled by his hatred of Jews.

You are entitled to your opnions. I happen to disagree, at least as far as FJ is concerned. I do not know MPC personally, so can't comment on his personal beliefs.

I hope we aren't being shoved into the pit where criticizing the Mossad is equal to anti-Semitism. FJ is extremely critical of the Mossad agents at that time. He is also very critical of Angleton of CIA. If you don't like his thesis, why not just disagree with it?

JFK was not a 'great friend' of Israel any more than he was a 'great friend' of the Palestinians. In addition, JFK was looking for a process for the inspection of Dimona, which he realized quickly was not simply a power plant. This has been corroborated by Vanunu, who is still in a form of house arrest in Israel for describing and photographing the nuclear capability that he believed Israel was developing in secret in the 1980's.

Although RFK had to have been pro-Israel to have been elected to the Senate from NY, I don't believe he was especially gung-ho Israel either. In addition, and unfortunately, they were sons of a notorious Hitler-appeaser, so to some extent they may have been headed for disaster in relations with Israel no matter what they did.

[Tim Gratz]

The Mossad killed Kennedy because his father was an anti-Semite? No, I do not think so!

Pamela wrote:

"I hope we aren't being shoved into the pit where criticizing the Mossad is equal to anti-Semitism."

Pamela, with all due respect, accusing the Mossad of killing JFK (with no evidence to support such libel) is a bit more than criticizing the Mossad or Israel, don't you think?

Let's consider the "cui bono" argument. A persuasive point can be made that a group that really benefitted from the assassination was the civil rights movement. As you know, civil rights leaders were in fact critical of JFK for not acting fast enough on civil rights. Now assume someone wrote a book suggesting that Martin Luther Ling. Jr. who had to be aware of LBJ's developing legal problems got together with LBJ and made a devil's bargain with him: "We will solve your problems and make you president if you guarantee we will get away with it (i.e. the cover-up) AND give us our civil rights legislation."

Now if it was discovered that the writer of that nonsense was a secret member of the Ku Klux Klan, don't you think it would be reasonable to conclude that the book was written simply because the author was a racist and hated blacks?

I say any book proposing that Israel killed JFK that is written by a Holocaust denier is clearly driven by the author's anti-semitism. This does not mean that any fool who endorses the book is necessarily anti-semitic; it simply means he lacks judgment--and a knowledge of history. (Although some may be anti-semitic as well.)

As I stated above, history is clear that America's close political ties with Israel were forged during Kennedy's administration. Now those ties may, as the book suggests, come about because the Commies were making inroads with the Arab leaders at the time. But motivation is irrelevant here. The point is that Israel got a much better "deal" with JFK than it did with Ike. That is the historical record, ladies and gentlemen.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Stapleton]

As I stated above, history is clear that America's close political ties with Israel were forged during Kennedy's administration. Now those ties may, as the book suggests, come about because the Commies were making inroads with the Arab leaders at the time. But motivation is irrelevant here. The point is that Israel got a much better "deal" with JFK than it did with Ike. That is the historical record, ladies and gentlemen.

What garbage.

JFK's relationship with the Israel lobby was, for the most part, testy and mistrustful.

JFK's July 2, 1957 Senate speech in support of Algerian independence riled Israel, who were strongly opposed to the creation of a new and independant Arab state in the region.

During the 1960 campaign JFK met with Jewish financier Abe Feinberg in an effort to secure campaign funds, but was shocked to discover that in return for the financial support, the Israel lobby wanted complete control over US Middle East foreign policy. In fact, in 1962 he submitted five bills to reform campaign financing to Congress, and two more in 1963. Seymour Hersh cites Kennedy criticising the current method of campaign financing as 'highly undesirable' and 'not healthy' because it made candidates 'dependant on large financial contributions of those with special interests'. Unfortunately for JFK (and us), the bills were defeated by those same special interests, the Israel lobby prominent among them.

There was Kennedy's December 1962 meeting in Palm Beach, Florida with Israeli Foreign Minister Golda Meir in which Kennedy emphasised to his guest that US-Israeli relations were 'a two way street'.

Also, there was Kennedy's final White House press conference--November 14, 1963--at which Kennedy bemoaned the fact that Congress had voted to cut off aid to Egypt. The powerful pro-Israel lobby were responsible for this and one of their lobbyists, I.L. Kenan, described the scene this way, "Kennedy ruefully surveyed the debris of his Nasser policy at a press conference on November 14, 1963. He was sharply critical. The Senate amendment required him 'to make a finding which is extremely complicated' and he did not believe that this language would strengthen our hand or our flexibility in dealing with the UAR".

There was also JFK's bitter dispute with Ben-Gurion over Israel's nuclear plans--a dispute which for some strange reason the US media decided should be hidden from the public.

Israel didn't get a better deal from JFK at all. They saw JFK's attempt to establish a fair and bipartisan US foreign policy in the Middle East as a crap deal.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Mark Stapleton

[Tim Gratz]

Mark may I assume from this post that you have now read the Bass book?

Or are you trying to create your own history here without reading the seminal book on JFK's dealings with Israel, written by a CFR senior fellow without any apparent political agenda.

I'll throw you guys a little bit of information I bet few of you knew.

JFK sent an emissary to Miami to hear complaints from the Cuban exiles about the CIA. This secret meeting was held in the offices of the Miami News, whose editor was a close friend of JFK. There was an informant in the meeting who reported the meeting back to the FBI (I believe). Pretty sure the informant was Jay Mallin. (Look him up--he was in Cuba pre-Castro and he still writes about Cuban issues for "Soldier of Fortune" from time to time.) He was presumably the informant because the information lists all others in attendance other than Mallin.

This Mallin report to the FBI is on the CD re the Hemming in Dallas conference because Hemming sat in on the meeting. It's very interesting reading.

But what is relevant here is that the man JFK sent to the meeting was Theodore Racoosin. Racoosin was one of the founders of the State of Israel.

Do you really suppose that if JFK was anti-Israel one of his closest advisers would be Racoosin, a founder of the State of Israel? And do you really suppose the Mossad would kill Racoosin's friend JFK? Pretty darn unlikely, I'd say!

Free advise: read some history books; engage brain before opening mouth or typing!

Edited August 20, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Stapleton]

But what is relevant here is that the man JFK sent to the meeting was Theodore Racoosin. Racoosin was one of the founders of the State of Israel.

Do you really suppose that if JFK was anti-Israel one of his closest advisers would be Racoosin, a founder of the State of Israel? And do you really suppose the Mossad would kill Racoosin's friend JFK? Pretty darn unlikely, I'd say!

Free advise: read some history books; engage brain before opening mouth or typing!

THIS is your response to the several points I made in the previous post? The Israel lobby's disinformation campaign must be in worse shape than I thought.

[Tim Gratz]

I gather from your response you have NOT yet read the Bass book. Most interesting indeed that someone would claim expertise on the history of U.S.-Israeli relationship without reading what seems to be the only scholarly book on that issue! It would be like trying to post your thoughts on William Shakespeare without reading his books!

[Mark Stapleton]

I gather from your response you have NOT yet read the Bass book. Most interesting indeed that someone would claim expertise on the history of U.S.-Israeli relationship without reading what seems to be the only scholarly book on that issue! It would be like trying to post your thoughts on William Shakespeare without reading his books!

And I gather that you have not read Avner Cohen's "Israel and the bomb".

Shameful.