The Gordon Arnold Competition

[Miles Scull]

It's Placard man or bust Miles, don't you agree?

Duncan

Duncan,

OK, this is your thread.

But I feel obliged to voice a word of caution.

The introduction of Placard Man may have severe psychic blow-back from BM of a kind you may not have anticipated or desired.

Look at it this way. BM has no choice but to copy & paste the Arnie image onto a 5'10" cardboard mock up. Then he must this to Dallas & Groden. Then, Groden will have to shuttle the mock up between the wall & the fence incrementally only to find that no matter where it is placed the mock up is an unwieldy colossus & an award winning no-no.

Do you really think Groden is going to cooperate with this kind of research jape?

Then there is the collateral, irreversible fallout for BM's tottering position & stability.

You might want to reconsider. It's not too late!

[Bill Miller]

Here is a hypothetical reply...lets say that some Groden infatuated dopey dunce (who likewise isn't a member of this forum so not to break any forum rules) just ups and makes up claims that he has a rock solid rebuttal, and that he has conclusive proof that Arnold is behind the wall in Moorman, yet this same booze guzzling thicko says that he must keep it secret from the world, then what are we all to think about this empty cranium blowhard ?

Once again you misstate the record, but what is new. Nothing has been kept from the world ... for it was posted. Anyone serious enough to actually want to get the facts can go to Dallas and ask Groden to show them the film. As I have said before, I am not authorized to post Groden's film onto the Internet. So if your complaint is that I am not posting someone else's material on the forum so some arm-chair researcher can have it, then I am guilty as charged. I am always amazed at the complaints that come from people who bitch the most, but do the least to actually know the facts. Maybe plan a trip to Dallas, Texas ... visit the Museum ... make an appointment with Gary Mack to see the collection of images they have on hand ... walk out to the knoll and ask Groden about the work we had done at the lab and see if he will allow you to view it. Don't feel picked on and stop your whining for I, too had to fly to Dallas and even pay part of the Bill to have the work done on that film because thats what researchers do who are serious about wanting to get at the truth of things. I would like nothing more than to post clips from that film Robert had worked on, but that has to be his call - not mine. I am guessing that he has plans on marketing it at some point and that is why he didn't want me giving it out to anyone. However, I see no harm in anyone going to see it or even viewing the copy Robert allowed me to have. IMO, allowing someone to view it is different than posting it on the Internet so every screwball can then have it before its owner has marketed it, thus I will keep my word to Robert. After all, it was in giving my word that allowed me to have a copy given to me ... hopefully you are smart enough to understand the importance of this and why I cannot just post it at will.

Here's what it tells us

It tells us that all along ( 4 months ) he was dreaming, that he did not have any proof rebuttal evidence, and is now passing the buck on to Groden.[/b]

Your remarks are asinine and a prime example of how you constantly draw conclusions without knowing the facts.

At last the penny has dropped. This is what I have been asking for since I made my placard man proposal, and I asked you, because Groden will not reply to me, to forward my proposal. I hope the laid down criteria is adhered to, otherwise it's a waste of time.

Asking Groden to do this for you will certainly not get the job done. And why ask Groden ... did not Miles at least have the brains to ask someone to take some photos for him during the memorial week in November - could you have not done the same seeing how you are the inventor of this poorly researched claim. Instead, you sit back and bitch about why someone else cannot drop what they are doing and get the job done for you, which is another reason why you are having trouble getting respectable researchers to reply to your emails. FWIW - Improve your research habits and possibly these people will start seeing you as a serious researcher and maybe feel more inclined to listen to you.

Who is lazy Bill? name this lazy person. You know that Groden will not reply to me because you told me that he told you so.

Answered above!

Edited January 10, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Duncan,

OK, this is your thread.

But I feel obliged to voice a word of caution.

The introduction of Placard Man may have severe psychic blow-back from BM of a kind you may not have anticipated or desired.

Look at it this way. BM has no choice but to copy & paste the Arnie image onto a 5'10" cardboard mock up. Then he must this to Dallas & Groden. Then, Groden will have to shuttle the mock up between the wall & the fence incrementally only to find that no matter where it is placed the mock up is an unwieldy colossus & an award winning no-no.

Do you really think Groden is going to cooperate with this kind of research jape?

Then there is the collateral, irreversible fallout for BM's tottering position & stability.

You might want to reconsider. It's not too late!

Miles, why does one need a place card - any person with an inch or so of Arnold's height can stand where Arnold is said to be in Moorman's photo so that their feet height to the wall can be established. In fact, you could have asked that this be done when you were requesting photos of the stairway in relation to Bowers LOS. Why did you not request the pictures ... ????? The sad part is that just like with the Bowers LOS that you were in error about ... this will eventually be addressed and you and Duncan will be shown to be merely blowing off once again about something you didn't bother fully researching before carrying out your ridiculous claim. Then as we have seen over and over - you'll quickly find something else to claim while making the same sloppy mistakes over and over again.

Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

Duncan,

OK, this is your thread.

But I feel obliged to voice a word of caution.

The introduction of Placard Man may have severe psychic blow-back from BM of a kind you may not have anticipated or desired.

I'm not anticpating anything other than Bill and Groden to almost certainly refuse to carry out the Arnold cut-out experiment. I hope in this instance I am proved wrong.

Look at it this way. BM has no choice but to copy & paste the Arnie image onto a 5'10" cardboard mock up.

I would do it, I bet you would, I bet most who wanted to know the truth would do it, so why wouldn't he if he thought it was a way to the truth? Who cares what onlooking tourists with no real interest in the case would think.

Then he must this to Dallas & Groden. Then, Groden will have to shuttle the mock up between the wall & the fence incrementally only to find that no matter where it is placed the mock up is an unwieldy colossus & an award winning no-no.

The outcome will determine the result, so let's be fair and not prejudge. If they are good enough to do the experiment under my termed conditions, then I think we should show them some respect for doing so. If I am proven to be wrong, so what? it's the truth of the matter that counts, not ego's. I've been wrong before, I can take it

Do you really think Groden is going to cooperate with this kind of research jape?

What's a joke about it Miles? I'm deadly serious with my proposal, and the fact that Bill has conversed with Groden on this subject and that some action will be undertaken is a big step forward, and shows that they are taking this seriously.

You might want to reconsider. It's not too late!

There's nothing to reconsider Miles.

Duncan

______________________________________________

Excellent response, Duncan.

Thanks,

--Thomas

______________________________________________

[Miles Scull]

______________________________________________

Excellent response, Duncan.

Thanks,

--Thomas

______________________________________________

______________________________________________

Excellent response, Duncan.

Thanks,

--Miles

______________________________________________

I have to admit in honesty, however, that I don't know what I am talking about. Yet, I would like to participate if by only adding my gratitude for your participation.

I think that the 'Groden help plan' may help. Beyond that I do not feel competent to judge.

Once again, thanks.

--Miles

Edit: spelling

Edited January 10, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Miles Scull]

Quite simply, they either read my postings, or some weasel snitch spreads word to them about me. There's no other answer, that's a fact.

Duncan

weasel snitch

weasel snitch?

Duncan.

The Weasel Snitch (aka, WS) is not I.

I think you know that.

But beware of WS spoor seen recently on this thread.

See my explanatory in post # 699 above.

[Bill Miller]

Excellent response, Duncan.

Thanks,

--Thomas

______________________________________________

Thomas, my opening response in #696 applies to you and any other interested party, as well. Duncan and Miles are the only two people in a quarter of a century to make a claim that Arnold is too small. Numerous experts have seen these materials and not one has come up with the nonsense that these two have trumped up because of their lack of research on the subject. The people at MIT didn't seem to have problem as to these individuals size. In fact, they didn't ask what they were, but who were they! Dale Myers attempted to make it appear that Badge Man was too small and to do it he had to use a large man and place him further into the RR yard to match Badge Man's size, but those of us who have been to the plaza and did our own research were able to use real live people who are thinner than Myers stand-in and we got a match. We even had the foresight to have our Badge Man turned partially sideways in a firing position

and not square with the camera like Myers did. Nearly everyone is wider from side to side than they are when slightly turned at an angle. The difference can be as much as 25 to 35% which means that to achieve the same width - one person would have to be placed further back from the camera than the other to achieve the same effect. The people at MIT who saw the Badge Man images obviously knew this while a select few critics were oblivious to the importance of doing the job right.

Does it not seem to you to be the responsibility of the person making the claim to have done the necessary basic research beforehand or is it your position that someone like Duncan and Miles should just be allowed to make off-the-cuff observations and then expect others to take their time and resources to show the mistakes that have been made??? We're talking about some individuals that if given contact information on particular matter that they claim to be interested in ... that they won't spend a thin dime to confirm or deny their accusations. So I must say that I am surprised to hear you respond in the way that you did. It seems all to easy for some here to spend other peoples time and money, but not their own. Maybe you are interested in going to Dallas and helping shoot the recreation picture and possibly viewing Groden's best Nix print ... for it only seems fair that not the same people have to be the same ones over and over to have to spend their resources entertaining a select few here who refuse to do the proper research needed to be done before making their BS claims.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Duncan.

The Weasel Snitch (aka, WS) is not I.

I don't know about that, Miles. It is said that there is a thin line between a 'weasel snitch' and a person who will purposely post disinformation about Duncan having consulted Groden and Mack.

[Bill Miller]

Am I wrong, or are you now changing your mind and not getting Groden to to what you have discussed with him and posted in an earlier response?

As usual - you are wrong because you cannot read text any better than you can images. I will ask Groden to do it for me - not for you. Robert being aware of some of your past nonsense would certainly cause him to not want to waste an ounce of his energy on you. Here is the important part of the quote, ".... Asking Groden to do this for you ...."

did not Miles at least have the brains to ask someone to take some photos for him during the memorial week in November?

I don't know, I've never discussed this with Miles

It matters not that you discussed anything with Miles .... you knew there were forum members

going to Dallas for the conference and you could have asked that one of them to take a photo just like Miles had the sense to do - BUT YOU DIDN'T!!!

My claim has been better researched than your unresearched claim that Arnold is in Moorman. Tell me Bill, what research have you carried out that proves Arnold is in Morman, not Nix, not Muchmore or anything else

What I have done is go to Dealey Plaza and used stand-ins while viewing them from Moorman's location. I have also spoken to Groden and Mack about the type of lens Moorman used and its significance as to why things look like they do one film and looking uphill. I have asked Mack if he has ever tested these individuals location with stand-ins so to know if someone got the same effect as I have. All you did was place a poorly scaled Arnold from one image to another and didn't even get the aspect ration correct so to be remotely accurate. Email Gary Mack and ask him to explain it to you and then go back and do your illustration example correctly.

Tell me Bill, this is a big question. How do these so called respectable researchers know who I am?

They are so uninterested in me that they know everything about me, enough to make a decision to not reply to any of my civilised emails, Gary Mack being the only one who replies consistently. Quite simply, they either read my postings, or some weasel snitch spreads word to them about me. There's no other answer, that's a fact.

They know you because of the ridiculous claims you have made for they make it into the far reaches of the research community and are used as the butt-end of jokes. As the Bible says, "You shall know thee by the fruit they bare." I mean - if just one of the claims you have ever made was worth anything, then if you can't sell them to the research community because of their earth shattering importance, then contact the tabloids and see if they're interested.

[Bill Miller]

Thomas,

Don't let Bill fool you for one second.

1./MIT did not study Arnold. Gary or Jack can verify this.

2./ The topic of this debate is the existance or non existance of Arnold In Moorman, the thread has nothing to do with the size of Badgeman, it's a straying from the topic tactic as usual.

3./ He says he has conducted conclusive research confirming Arnold's existance in Moorman. Where is it?

Duncan

Duncan, are you so narrow sighted that you cannot connect the dots! The people at MIT who saw Badge Man felt that he was a real person. Gordon Arnold is standing just ahead of him and is of equal size, thus if they felt Badge Man wasn't too small, then they cannot say that Arnold is too small. I have also posted many times about my recreation of the Moorman photo and did a presentation on it at Lancer's conference where it was well received by people like William Law, Joan Mellen, Sherry Gutierrez, and etc..

[Miles Scull]

The people at MIT who saw Badge Man felt that he was a real person. -- Miller

By early March, 1985, MACK and WHITE had engaged the services of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California under the auspices of former HSCA photo expert Robert SELZER. [30] According to SELZER, MACK made his request through the JPL public information office, which allowed SELZER to examine the materials without charging a fee. SELZER told author Richard TRASK that he received a whole series of "extremely grainy and noisy" copy prints. The JPL ran various types of linear computer filters on the images in an attempt to suppress noise and enhance detail. In the end, SELZER said, "We felt the noise was too high to do anything with - to do anything useful." -- Dale Myers

Looks like MIT were not saying that Badgeman or Arnie were real.

Why?

They could not know from the available prints.

[Miles Scull]

Looks like MIT were not saying that Badgeman or Arnie were real.

Why?

They could not know from the available prints.

Duncan,

While on the trail your weasel snitch (aka: WS), I believe I have come upon a clue as to his identity.

QUOTE

Tell me Bill, this is a big question. How do these so called respectable researchers know who I am?

They are so uninterested in me that they know everything about me, enough to make a decision to not reply to any of my civilised emails, Gary Mack being the only one who replies consistently. Quite simply, they either read my postings, or some weasel snitch spreads word to them about me. There's no other answer, that's a fact. -- Duncan

They know you because of the ridiculous claims you have made for they make it into the far reaches of the research community and are used as the butt-end of jokes.

As the Bible says, "You shall know thee by the fruit they bare." -- MILLER

Robert Groden is NOT a member of the Education Forum.

Therefore, the WS must be forwarding your postings surreptitiously, possibly using a dead drop.

I have zero contact with Groden.

So, who do you think might be the WS?

"You shall know them by the fruit they bare."

[Jack White]

The people at MIT who saw Badge Man felt that he was a real person. -- Miller

By early March, 1985, MACK and WHITE had engaged the services of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California under the auspices of former HSCA photo expert Robert SELZER. [30] According to SELZER, MACK made his request through the JPL public information office, which allowed SELZER to examine the materials without charging a fee. SELZER told author Richard TRASK that he received a whole series of "extremely grainy and noisy" copy prints. The JPL ran various types of linear computer filters on the images in an attempt to suppress noise and enhance detail. In the end, SELZER said, "We felt the noise was too high to do anything with - to do anything useful." -- Dale Myers

Looks like MIT were not saying that Badgeman or Arnie were real.

Why?

They could not know from the available prints.

Miles is ignorant about our dealings with MIT and JPL. Maybe Gary Mack will inform him.

I do not waste my time with spreaders of false information.

Jack

[Miles Scull]

Miles is ignorant about our dealings with MIT and JPL. Maybe Gary Mack will inform him.

I do not waste my time with spreaders of false information.

Jack

My vetted source citation: http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman.htm

Let's hope someone will inform us, with accurate, verifiable sources.

[Bill Miller]

Well, it doesn't matter who asks Bill, but it still puzzles me why Groden, according to you has such a great interest of my work. I have nothing personal against him, we have never communicated in a send and return reply manner, so as I said earlier, he is either reading my stuff on the forum or receiving information from someone about me having the audacity to challenge the existance of Arnold in Moorman. How dare I...slap my wrists

Yet again you misstate the facts. I have never said that Groden has any great interest in your work. The garbage that you come up with has been and still is the butt-end of jokes that many of us laugh about when we get together. Groden has ridiculed me by asking 'Why do you waste your time posting to those idiots!'. So now you know what he thinks and why he won't waste his time answering your emails. And your so-called challenge has been like taking a feather to a knife fight, thus there is no challenge. Groden will ask 'What does he know about the optics pertaining to Moorman's camera lens?' ... or 'What does he know about the foreshortening effect and how did he apply it to the image?' Then I tell Groden, 'He didn't address any of this.' And that's when Robert will ask why am I wasting my time when this person doesn't even know the first thing about the subject he is wanting to argue about.

And this is just why I cannot just ask Robert to do something because 'Duncan' wants it done, so I have to approach it as if its something that I'm working on, then he'll get around to doing it.

What I have done is go to Dealey Plaza and used stand-ins while viewing them from Moorman's location.

Yes, BUT YOU HAVE NEVER GOT A MATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!No one has

You don't know the facts as usual, thus you are once again wrong. I will get around to presenting some images to show how once again you are in error and it will prove nothing except how poorly some people look into their claims before making them. Like is the past - it will not stop you from carrying on with the same pitiful research practices, thus nothing will be gained other than once again showing how you were wrong, which is nothing new.

John Simkin manages to go to Dallas every year ... So buy yourself an airline ticket well in advance for a cheap rate and make the trip. Plan out your research for when you get there - go to the Museum and anywhere else you can think of so then and only then you will at least appear to be serious about the things you say.

Bill Miller

Edited January 11, 2008 by Bill Miller