Gedney and Woodrow Noble

[Steve Thomas]

In February, 1992 alleged tramp, John Forrester Gedney told FBI Agent John E. Decker that he (Gedney), Gus Abrams, and Harold Doyle were placed in a four-man jail cell on November 22, 1963.

After they had been there for a while, they were joined by another individual by the name of Woodrow Noble, whom he described as an "older while male, who apparently was known to the local police."

However, CD 1444 is a letter from Jesse Curry to Lee Rankin concerning the phone calls made by jail inmates over November 22 - 23, 1963.

On page 9 of that document the name Woodrow Noble appears as making a phone call during the 3rd Platoon shift.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=10

He appears listed as being in cell A-9, and appears to be the only prisoner from that particular cell to make a phone call over that weekend.

According to Deputy Chief Batchelor, the Headquarters Third Platoon worked the 3:00 PM to 11:00 PM shift

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=157

I can't make out the signature of the jail personnel who signed Noble out, but it doesn't appear to match any of the names on the list of Third Platoon shift personnel.

To an untrained eye, the signature almost looks like Revill, which if true, raises some questions, because in 1963 Jack Revill was a Lieutenant in the Special Service Bureau.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=138

From what I can tell, this person only signed out two other people over that weekend: an Edgar Cox, and an Ed Lane.

Take a look at the prisoner sign-out sheets and tell me what you think.

(Just on a a side note curiosity, Daniel Wayne Douglas and the Joiner brothers were all listed as making phone calls during that shift).

The name Noble does not appear in the Index to the DPD Archives.

Nor do I find him him in a Google search.

He's only listed once in a google groups search by Denis Morisette back in around 2000, asking the same kind of questions I am.

Who was Noble?

Where did he come from?

Where did he go?

I got to thinking, if I was a Dallas Policeman, and I had three people who were suspected of having shot the President, I'd stick them in a cell and then plant someone to listen in on their conversation and try to draw them out. Maybe when Gedney said that Noble was "apparently known to the local police", maybe he did not mean that Noble was known because he was a troublemaker

Steve Thomas

[James Richards]

Steve,

I can tell you that Woodrow Noble is in fact Charles Woodrow Noble. He was 46 in 1963.

His criminal career began when he was 17 - he was busted for selling marijuana. Here's the good bit, he was working for his mother, Mary Noble, who employed young boys to make drug sales. They were both arrested and did time.

Noble went on to a career of crime which included burglary and attempted murder. He tried to kill Buster James in 1959 during an underworld dispute.

Noble was friends with a guy named James Butler and both of them were well known to the Campisi brothers.

At the time of the assassination, Noble lived at 230 Acres Road in Dallas.

James

Edited August 21, 2007 by James Richards

[Charles Drago]

James,

Do you know of any relationship to a Noble family who summered in Rhode Island and/or one of the founders of the Julliard School?

Charles

[James Richards]

James,

Do you know of any relationship to a Noble family who summered in Rhode Island and/or one of the founders of the Julliard School?

Charles

Sorry, Charles. No.

James

[Steve Thomas]

James,

Steve,

I can tell you that Woodrow Noble is in fact Charles Woodrow Noble. He was 46 in 1963.

Thank you. I answered you in the Lancer Forum, but for the benefit of the others here, this is what a former Dallas policeman told me:

Steve Thomas

Steve:

Charles Woodrow Noble was a small time criminal that was still around in the late sixties.

There was a gambler that was always in trouble and owed every bookie in Dallas named Buster James. Buster had a nasty wife named Doris Jean (Pookie) James.

The last time I saw Woody Noble as he was known, he was with Pookie at a beer joint in East Dallas called the Hart Club which was a hangout for criminals. Pookie was a heroin addict and she and Woody both looked like they were 30 years older than they actually were and sure looked down on their luck.

Woody has a warrant out for not paying the fine and court costs on a Theft conviction and my partner and I put him in the County Jail. That was in 1968 and that is the last time I saw him. He had been to the State Prison several times and as I recall mostly for burglary and theft offenses. He swore he wasn't taking drugs, but he shook all the time and all his teeth had fallen out. I guess he was in his late fifties then, but looked like an 80 year old man.

I seem to remember Pookie's old man Buster was in prison at that time.

I had an old friend that was a retired Dallas County Deputy Sheriff. He worked the Kleberg-Seagoville area of Dallas County for years beginning in 1939. He went to World War II and returned and went right back to working the same area. He talked about the Noble family often.

There were four notorious sorry families in the area. the Sorrells, the Watsons, the Daniels and the sorriest of all the Nobles. The all married into the other families and were all bootleggers, thieves, burglars and small time criminals.

Woody Noble's mother was always getting arrested for something and he had a sister that killed her husband when he was passed out drunk by pouring gasoline all over him and setting him on fire.

Here are a few newspaper articles mentioning Woody--------------

[David Josephs]

On 8/21/2007 at 3:03 PM, Steve Thomas said:

I can't make out the signature of the jail personnel who signed Noble out, but it doesn't appear to match any of the names on the list of Third Platoon shift personnel.

This thread was referenced related to the tramps - thanks as always for your great posts with links.  16 years past. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=154

Thinking aloud,  it looks to me like "PAUL" is what the man signed and we have a jail guard "Fred Paul" from 1st platoon.  I'd doubt they'd use first names so to me it makes some sense...  and possibly with "all hands on deck" some officers stayed on past their shifts??

Maybe? 

[David Josephs]

@Steve Thomas

In that same WCD1444 there's this card.   

TRAN TO CO...  County Office?  Not Coroner's Office as he went to Parkland

Is this the Hunt call that was not allowed to go thru?

GRH = Garnet R Hill, Jail Guard. another 1st platoon name

Oswald's name only appears on the 22nd call log and not with GRH but what looks like "Jake Bedding", I could find no names with the double "d" on the 3 platoon's rosters.

And doesn't the rest of Oswald's card notations suggest he made or received other calls.. wondering if these are only outbound or both... didn't think he got any calls, did he?

And as you say, PAUL does not appear again...  you say he's the 4th man yet 3 tramps, 3 men with Paul...  thoughts?

 

. 

[Steve Thomas]

16 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

@Steve Thomas

In that same WCD1444 there's this card.   

TRAN TO CO...  County Office?  Not Coroner's Office as he went to Parkland

Is this the Hunt call that was not allowed to go thru?

GRH = Garnet R Hill, Jail Guard. another 1st platoon name

Oswald's name only appears on the 22nd call log and not with GRH but what looks like "Jake Bedding", I could find no names with the double "d" on the 3 platoon's rosters.

And doesn't the rest of Oswald's card notations suggest he made or received other calls.. wondering if these are only outbound or both... didn't think he got any calls, did he?

And as you say, PAUL does not appear again...  you say he's the 4th man yet 3 tramps, 3 men with Paul...  thoughts?

 

. 

David,

You're right. You have to be careful what you post on the Internet. It never dies.

Gedney said that Noble was with them in Cell Block A.

Paaul's name does appear does appear again on the 22nd, handling a call made by Leroy Eunis from Cell Block E.

I think these were only outgoing calls, because of the middle column that says Contact Yes/No. I think that means did the prisoner make contact with the person he was trying to reach. If so, does that mean that Oswald made contact with the person he was calling, and is this in reference to the Hurt call, or something else?

It's a shame the times are not indicated.

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

48 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

You're right. You have to be careful what you post on the Internet. It never dies.

Gedney said that Noble was with them in Cell Block A.

Paaul's name does appear does appear again on the 22nd, handling a call made by Leroy Eunis from Cell Block E.

I think these were only outgoing calls, because of the middle column that says Contact Yes/No. I think that means did the prisoner make contact with the person he was trying to reach. If so, does that mean that Oswald made contact with the person he was calling, and is this in reference to the Hurt call, or something else?

It's a shame the times are not indicated.

Steve Thomas

I've gotten with Keyvan who is running an API directly into the archive database to try and see if there is anything more about these other names...

Strange that GRH is on his card but not the man who took him. 

And what's with the crossing out of "Deceased 11-24 to". 

Finally, I am amazed that Matt A can forget all the subterfuge and declare the tramps in the photos are those listed on the arrest reports which Chambers cannot remember.

btw - who was the photographer of the DP tramps anyway.. waiting in DP with all that's going on to be able to take these photos... as well as the one with Lansdale.

Edit:  I see my files say ALLEN and BEERS took the photos

Thanks

Edited July 17, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

@Steve Thomas

The API came back with that same wrong file # 104-10385-1004 as well as claiming another report is WCD2312 when we only have 1555 of them.

I also looked at CE2312 which by coincidence (ha) is about Ruby having the # of DAVID PAUL.

Fred PAUL is the name associated with Noble and the other 2.  I asked him if he could see if there was a connection

[Steve Thomas]

46 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

@Steve ThomasThe API came back with that same wrong file # a

David,

What is the API?

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

Steve - I think we're gonna need all your expertise in searching and digging here.. these results are quite strange

I don't know... the API for the NARA database of the released files is the program which allows us to query the database.

With the key @Keyvan Shahrdar got from NARA he, as a developer, is able to access the database directly by asking it questions thru BARD.

Sure, here is the transcript of Warren Commission Document 2312:  (no such WCD)
Date: November 23, 1963
Location: Dallas, Texas
Interviewer: Arlen Specter
Interviewee: Gus Abrams

Specter: Can you tell us what you saw?
Abrams: Well, I was standing on Elm Street when the shots were fired. I saw two men running towards the train tracks after the shots were fired.

There are no records of Specter interviewing Abrams... And the Chambers arrest reports and his testimony shows he was not there when they arrested them but was told they by the tramps themselves they were asleep in a boxcar when police woke them.

He also showed a McCloy-Prouty interview - that also is not listed anywhere.   WCD1555 is the last WCD.  Does this mean there are 800 WCD not released at a minimum?
DJ

Date: December 13, 1963. WCD 2094. 

Location: Washington, D.C.

Interviewer: John J. McCloy

Interviewee: Fletcher Prouty

McCloy: Mr. Prouty, thank you for coming down today. We appreciate your help.

Prouty: It's my pleasure.

McCloy: I understand that you were a former Air Force colonel who worked in the Office of Special Operations.

Prouty: That's correct.

McCloy: Can you tell us about your knowledge of the assassination plot against President Kennedy?

Prouty: Well, I can't say that I had any specific knowledge of the plot. However, I did have some general knowledge of the activities of the Office of Special Operations.

McCloy: Can you tell us more about that?

Prouty: Sure. The Office of Special Operations was a secret unit within the Air Force that was responsible for carrying out covert operations. We were involved in a lot of different things, including assassinations.

McCloy: Assassinations?

Prouty: Yes. We were involved in the assassination of Patrice Lumumba in the Congo, for example.

McCloy: I see. And you believe that the Office of Special Operations was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy?

Prouty: I believe it's possible. I know that the Office of Special Operations had a lot of enemies, and I wouldn't put it past them to have been involved in the assassination.

McCloy: Thank you for your time, Mr. Prouty. We appreciate your help.

Prouty: You're welcome.

This transcript shows that Fletcher Prouty, a former Air Force colonel who had worked in the Office of Special Operations, believed that the Office of Special Operations was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. However, Prouty did not have any specific knowledge of the plot.

The Warren Commission did not investigate Prouty's claims, and they ultimately concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating President Kennedy. However, Prouty's claims have been the subject of much speculation and debate.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Steve -

There are no records of Specter interviewing Abrams... And the Chambers arrest reports and his testimony shows he was not there when they arrested them but was told they by the tramps themselves they were asleep in a boxcar when police woke them.

David,

One thing we have to is sort out the conflicting reports of the DPD personnel.

 

1992 FBI interview of Marvin L. Wise. FBI 124-10273-10440

Page 2

https://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/senate/5439/Susp_124-10273-10440.html

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

One thing we have to is sort out the conflicting reports of the DPD personnel.

 

1992 FBI interview of Marvin L. Wise. FBI 124-10273-10440

Page 2

https://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/senate/5439/Susp_124-10273-10440.html

 

Steve Thomas

This makes sense since the three in the WISE images are not the 3 with arrest reports... the 1st set were already in the boxcars, while the 2nd set moved along the RR tracks and were picked up later in the day.   

But why the parade?  why Lansdale is allowed to walk to & past them?  With the 2 sets of tramps (like all the dualities), the different DPD personnel can all be telling the truth while conflicting at the same time.

https://theoswaldcode.com/index2.htm.  This shows the arrest reports and the report of another DPD officer who talks about the later arrival of the three men brought to Decker by Wise.  Sheriff Harold Elkins claims though, that he takes the three DP tramps to Fritz and the City Jail after WISE drops them off.

I'd think that was to tie the two different sets together.  

And remember Bill Middle says he was not at work on the 22nd at all. FWIW

 

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

don't know... the API for the NARA database of the released files is the program which allows us to query the database.

With the key @Keyvan Shahrdar got from NARA he, as a developer, is able to access the database directly by asking it questions thru BARD.

So you can just request a free API key from NARA and get programmatic access to a database of RIFs and metadata that isn’t otherwise publicly available? NARA is (supposedly) working on digitizing the whole collection IAW Biden’s Dec. 2022 memo, but as far as I know the only currently available “database” of RIFs is the 2021 Excel spreadsheet.

Does anyone have a link? Part of my job involves integrating external APIs with AI so I’d love to tinker with this a bit. @Keyvan Shahrdar what is the response schema from the NARA API? Is it just the same fields in the Excel spreadsheet in JSON? Is there like a .pdf url, or encoded .pdf, or something like that? I’m curious how you get to the actual content of the record since some of the Bard responses you posted look like it retrieved more than just metadata. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Tom Gram