On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Chris Davidson]

Tree trunks in the background stabilized. (Couch)

Wiegman slight shadow contrast adjustment.

chris

[Bill Miller]

(2) swirls of smoke, i think thats a stretch to make the Z-frames fit the smoke scenario.

One thing that should be agreed upon and that is if something can be seen on two different cameras from two different angles, then lens grunge is not the answer.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

(1) The so called smoke in my opinion is inconclusive, it could be anything.

If it wasn't for the wittness testimony about smelling gunpowder i would ignore it all together.

(2) swirls of smoke, i think thats a stretch to make the Z-frames fit the smoke scenario.

(3) Tree trunk, i have no idea what he is on about. ?

Robin & Alan,

If the wind is moving this way:

then, certain questions arise. WHERE, EXACTLY, IS THIS ALLEGED SMOKE ?

Where does the wind carry the smoke? To the left or right of the Hudson tree?

If there is smoke in Wiegman, then where is it? How close is the smoke cloud/puff to Wiegman CONSIDERING THE WIND DIRECTION & where is it?

Over the grass? Over the sidewalk? Over Elm St.?

The sidewalk is 50 feet from the fence. So, if the smoke is at the point where the red arrow touches the sidewalk (see map), then it is 50 feet from the fence.

If the smoke is over the sidewalk or the street, if it is closer to Wiegman than the red arrow point at the sidewalk or further away from Wiegman than the red arrow point at the sidewalk, then the smoke is greater than 50 feet away from the fence.

Considering the wind direction, the smoke must be over Elm St. & 75 or 100 or more feet away from the fence.

But the smoke would have dissipated to invisibility between 25 to 50 feet from the fence, unless the rifle was a musket.

Therefore, the smoke is in reality a cluster of bright red leaves. QED

[Bill Miller]

WHERE, EXACTLY, IS THIS ALLEGED SMOKE ?

Where does the wind carry the smoke? To the left or right of the Hudson tree?

The picture you posted was one I had used to place those arrows on it. The wind direction was a general reference. As someone who claims to have been to the plaza - you must know that its like a huge bowl and the the wind gust and swirls. This must have been apparent when you watch the Zapruder film and see that Moorman's coat is hanging down and then suddenly blows open as the limo is moving past her.

As has been said several times now - Holland said the smoke came out through the two trees. Those would be the Hudson tree and the one just west of it. The fence and the trees would help work as a wind break ... common sense should give us that much of a clue for the smoke cloud was obviously still holding together enough that several witnesses both east and west of it had seen it. But once it drifted out past the protection of the trees it would have been swept up in the air flow and dissipated within a second or two depending on the wind gust level at that particular moment.

For further experience in how gun-smoke reacts to air flow - go to a trap shoot one night and watch the smoke under the lights. Once the smoke is seen under the light where it is then better illuminated, then watching how it dissipates can be quite educational. Then you can watch the little parts of it break up and how it will turn and spiral when the air starts to move it. Also, it should be said that gun-smoke is heavier than smoke lets say made by a fire. smoke by a fire 1: quickly rises because it hotter and lighter. Others who have been to shooting ranges have mirrored the same types of observations. More information coming from they may still be found in Lancer's archives.

If there is smoke in Wiegman, then where is it? How close is the smoke cloud/puff to Wiegman CONSIDERING THE WIND DIRECTION & where is it?

Is one not able to watch the Wiegman film so to know where he was at when he started filming and captured the President's car entering the underpass? If one is looking for exact street locations and cannot figure it out looking at the feilm, then I would suggest contacting Gary Mack at the 6th Floor Museum for he has more experience than anyone in knowing exactly where each photographer was at the time they stared filming the assassination and the surrounding area.

Over the grass? Over the sidewalk? Over Elm St.?

The smoke would have dissipated the moment it come out from the protection of the fence and trees. The oder would have then been pushed up the street.

The sidewalk is 50 feet from the fence. So, if the smoke is at the point where the red arrow touches the sidewalk (see map), then it is 50 feet from the fence.

If the smoke is over the sidewalk or the street, if it is closer to Wiegman than the red arrow point at the sidewalk or further away from Wiegman than the red arrow point at the sidewalk, then the smoke is greater than 50 feet away from the fence.

The smoke could be no closer to the street than it was when it left the protection of the trees. No witness who said they saw the smoke drift out from the trees ever said anything about the smoke being seen hanging out over the sidewalk or street. The reason for this is common sense and a little knowledge of how smoke in air currents works. The smoke is quickly dissipated.

Dissipated:

1 : to break up and scatter or vanish

Considering the wind direction, the smoke must be over Elm St. & 75 or 100 or more feet away from the fence.

The odor would have moved out into the street and been carried in the wind. The smoke would not. It seems like you are having trouble understanding how smoke works. The odor would have been disseminated into the air.

disseminate:

to scatter or spread widely, as though sowing seed

But the smoke would have dissipated to invisibility between 25 to 50 feet from the fence, unless the rifle was a musket.

I think a reasonably educated person can rule out the musket theory. When the smoke would have dissipated would depend on several factors already mentioned several times now in previous responses. For example: If one is firing a gun that puts off a cloud of smoke and the shooter is in the wide open spaces, then one might realize that the smoke would be dissipated more suddenly than someone producing the same smoke at a place where there may be protection from the air current such as an underpass, a fence, dense tree foliage and so on. Also the speed of the wind could effect the outcome. Was the wind still, steady, or did a gust occur at a particular moment that could cause the smokes reaction to vary ... these are all factors that should be considered.

Therefore, the smoke is in reality a cluster of bright red leaves. QED

To those who didn't have the foresight and experience to consider any of the above - your statement is probably correct because the conclusion was then based on theirlimited experience and knowledge of the subject being considered.

Bill Miller

Edited October 5, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

(1) The so called smoke in my opinion is inconclusive, it could be anything.

If it wasn't for the wittness testimony about smelling gunpowder i would ignore it all together.

(2) swirls of smoke, i think thats a stretch to make the Z-frames fit the smoke scenario.

(3) Tree trunk, i have no idea what he is on about. ?

Robin & Alan,

Therefore, the smoke is in reality a cluster of bright red leaves. QED

Robin & Alan,

And the march goes on.

[Miles Scull]

(1) The so called smoke in my opinion is inconclusive, it could be anything.

If it wasn't for the wittness testimony about smelling gunpowder i would ignore it all together.

(2) swirls of smoke, i think thats a stretch to make the Z-frames fit the smoke scenario.

(3) Tree trunk, i have no idea what he is on about. ?

Robin & Alan,

If the wind is moving this way:

Therefore, the smoke is in reality a cluster of bright red leaves. QED

Robin & Alan & Duncan,

Where would you say the alleged Wiegman smoke cloud/puff is?

Considering the brisk wind & using Bond.

I say the red balloon over Elm (blue arrow) makes sense.

(That is, on the absurd assumption that the smoke in Wiegman is real. - )

Alan?

Edited October 5, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

Miles, it would be the fence and the row of little trees that would have created a windbreak. But even at that ... those who have ever spent any time in the plaza has watched pieces of paper and leaves swirl in a whirlwind across the plaza without rhyme or reason. I think that point has even been mentioned in at least one JFK book, and it certainly is common knowledge to those who have visited the plaza to see it happen.

As far as you being able to look at a mere aerial photo of such low resolution and tell anything about the air movement within the photos you chose ... I would like for you to explain what you saw in those images that told you anything about the air movement and please don't say it was the arrows on the photos.

Bill Miller

Edited October 5, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Robin Unger]

Quote:

As far as you being able to look at a mere aerial photo of such low resolution and tell anything about the air movement within the photos you chose ... I would like for you to explain what you saw in those images that told you anything about the air movement and please don't say it was the arrows on the photos.

The same could be said for the so called Wiegman smoke frame:

As far as you being able to look at a mere wiegman frame of such low resolution and tell anything about the smoke movement within the photos you chose ... I would like for you to explain what you saw in those images that told you anything about the smoke movement and please don't say it was the arrows on the photos.

Was there a canon mounted behind the fence, it certianly wasn't a rifle that created that large "so called" smoke cloud apparition in the wiegman frames.

[Chris Davidson]

It would appear the wind was blowing in the same direction, at least in the general area of Hill,Moorman,Babushka and blue scarf lady across the street.

Babushka animation by John Dolva, I believe.

Stabilized Zapruder frames 165-206.

chris

[Robin Unger]

It would appear the wind was blowing in the same direction, at least in the general area of Hill,Moorman,Babushka and blue scarf lady across the street.

Babushka animation by John Dolva, I believe.

Stabilized Zapruder frames 165-206.

chris

Nice GIF Chris/John

Speaking of John Dolva, i haven't seen him on the forum for a while.

[Bill Miller]

As far as you being able to look at a mere aerial photo of such low resolution and tell anything about the air movement within the photos you chose ... I would like for you to explain what you saw in those images that told you anything about the air movement and please don't say it was the arrows on the photos.

The same could be said for the so called Wiegman smoke frame:

As far as you being able to look at a mere wiegman frame of such low resolution and tell anything about the smoke movement within the photos you chose ... I would like for you to explain what you saw in those images that told you anything about the smoke movement and please don't say it was the arrows on the photos.

Was there a canon mounted behind the fence, it certainly wasn't a rifle that created that large "so called" smoke cloud apparition in the wiegman frames.

Robin,

I will address your comments in the order that I read them in even though if you have been following this thread ... I have explained how I checked and cross-checked my observations so that others would see that I didn't merely rely on just one frame before drawing any conclusions. I would agree that one cannot merely look at one frame and be 100% sure about what they are seeing. I felt that I could look at the light density of the other sunlit foliage and compare that to the denser more solid light spots to see if they are consistent, and if found they were not, then I knew that there were other steps that I could take to see where it may lead - if anywhere.

Walk with me for a minute ...

I first noted the denser white cloud and how it was related to those smaller "C" shaped swirls and I noted that Zapruder had a field of view that should have panned past them as he tracked the limo regardless if they were from smoke or merely other artifacts. At the same time I was keeping in mind that the smoke would still be closer to its place of origin if seen on Zapruder's film if the car wasn't yet entering the underpass. So I looked at every frame of the Zapruder film when it got to the point that Abe was seeing the back of Hudson's head and I followed Zapruder's pan west. I also knew that one could look at where Zapruder's film hit the south knoll and get some sort of idea where on his film one should look for anything that resembled what was seen on the Wiegman film by cross referencing the two if indeed it was smoke I was seeing. I have already reported those findings concerning the swirls I saw in the Zapruder frame, so no need to repeat my conclusion here.

The second thing I did was to see if the "C" shapes were positioned as one would expect on the Zframes in relation to how they were positioned on the Wiegman film and I found them to be most similar. I referenced other photos (mostly color) of the knoll showing the lighter colored foliage on the distant trees and I found nowhere on them any "C" shaped swirl formations of leaves. I also had seen enough clouds of smoke from gunfire to know that as it breaks apart as it drifts along - the smaller patches that have broken away from the main body will start to swirl/rotate when they hit the air current. I noticed that on the frames I had to work with (which were better than the ones I have seen on the forum) that those swirls were bluish in color and it appeared to me that I could see through them, thus they were transparent just as smoke is.

Now I had what looked to possibly be gun-smoke on the Wiegman film and I found what looked to be similar sahped swirls on the Zapruder film and their spacing and stacking to one another had also seem to match from film to film. I even went back and looked for the denser white cloud on the Zfilm and I found that there looked to be signs of it as well around the sprocket holes on the film.

But I still wanted to see if I could test what I was seeing so I went back to the Wiegman film and I picked two of the best frames that I could find so to do a transparent overlay to see if this smoke had moved at all between frames. My goal was to use as many frames that seemed clear enough to use, but I found most of the others to be very poor to say the least, so I used the two best ones that I had found. Those frames as I recall were about 6 frames apart. Wiegman had barely taken a few steps, if that, in that 1/2 of a second between those frames and he was running towards the knoll. I knew that at such a distance as he was from the knoll that virtually any tree shifting should not have occurred. I then carefully aligned the outer edge of the sunlit tree foliage in both frames by using a red arrow as a reference point in each. I found that when set in motion - the smoke cloud drifted towards the street as it should have if it was indeed smoke. I also noticed that the light seen through the foliage seemed to move as well, but in closer inspection by placing an arrow on the white spots - they merely had faded in and out due to one frame being more blurry than the other.

So I looked at the Zapruder frames once again because I wanted to know why those swirls were more transparent than seen on the Wiegman film. I then considered that the two photographers were seeing them at a slightly different moment in time and that Zapruder was seeing them as the swirls were still up in the shade of the foliage - Wiegman was seeing them as they drifted into the sunlight more. I was aware that the angle of reflection can mean everything. For instance: When one walks around a water mist in the sunlight ... at some point they will see the water mist brighten up ... may even start seeing a rainbow. All this has to do with how the water mist is being viewed in relation to the sun's rays.

So instead of just relying on one film frame ... there were several things that I did to follow through with what I was seeing so to try and rationally and sensibly draw some sort of a conclusion that made not one thing fit, but everything fit. So whether one can follow what I have said or understand how I reached my conclusion - they should at least be able to see that I didn't just merely look at a single film frame image and draw my final conclusion.

Now I will ask the same question once again ... what is in the images that Miles used that would tell him which way the wind was blowing and its speed??? I am smart enough to know that one would first need to have at least two images taken close together so to do a transparency overlay to see if the foliage is moving at all. Miles had posted no such images and showing a couple still photos of the knoll and not even on the same day doesn't tell us nothing. So if there is something else Miles was able to do and he didn't just once again cite something as fact that had so factual basis, then I would like to learn from him so I can apply it to still images. If you (Robin) know what he did so to make such a statement, then please let me know what it was so I can learn something new as well.

Thanks,

Bill

Edited October 6, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

It would appear the wind was blowing in the same direction, at least in the general area of Hill,Moorman,Babushka and blue scarf lady across the street.

Babushka animation by John Dolva, I believe.

Stabilized Zapruder frames 165-206.

chris

Because the white of the cropped frame comes into view - it reminds me of one of my original gifs, but with the borders added. It may also be worth noting once again in case anyone missed it ... that Hill and Moorman's coats were not been blown eastward in the Zframes leading up to the kill shot. It was just as the car passed their position and before Mary goes off the film frames that her coat blows open from a gust of wind. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but the Bronson slide may also be a testimonial to the varying wind speeds and sudden gust that was going on also the street during this time period. The air current in the plaza was never consistent from moment to moment from what I recall.

Bill

Edited October 6, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

It would appear the wind was blowing in the same direction, at least in the general area of Hill,Moorman,Babushka and blue scarf lady across the street.

Babushka animation by John Dolva, I believe.

Stabilized Zapruder frames 165-206.

chris

Because the white of the cropped frame comes into view - it reminds me of one of my original gifs, but with the borders added. It may also be worth noting once again in case anyone missed it ... that Hill and Moorman's coats were not been blown eastward in the Zframes leading up to the kill shot. It was just as the car passed their position and before Mary goes off the film frames that her coat blows open from a gust of wind. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but the Bronson slide may also be a testimonial to the varying wind speeds and sudden gust that was going on also the street during this time period. The air current in the plaza was never consistent from moment to moment from what I recall.

Bill

Bill,

I try to give credit when due. In this case, the previous Zapruder animation was done by me.

The original reason for doing it had nothing to do with wind direction, just thought it might help with this topic.

Thanks Robin.

Onward. If we size/composite Towner and Wiegman, this is what we get.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

BTW,

Here's another photo to add for comparison.

chris

[Bill Miller]

(That is, on the absurd assumption that the smoke in Wiegman is real. - )

Miles,

What seems absurd to me is that in the other references to the 'brisk air flow' you cropped out Bev Oliver's coat and yet in this post you left it in and it shows her coat hanging dead in the air. Just a thought ....... If you are going to try and sell the 'brisk air flow' idea ... you might want to show an image that at least remotely supports it.

Bill Miller