On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Alan Healy]

So then, according to this observation of Gary's, that picture from "SSID" has been misleading us all this time because, it does indeed appear to show part of the south end of the walkway & thus Hudson & Co would of been clearly seen(or part of them) too from where the photographer was standing.

That's the impression we all got.

Alan,

When I look at that photo - I cannot see the walkway from the grass that was between the sidewalk and the fence. I, like you, had assumed that out at the very end of the 'high ground' that possibly that was where the sidewalk was, but I could not even say that with certainty. What I can say with certainty is that yo cannot go to even the first step and stand on the west-most end of it and see the tower because the shelter blocks it from view. I can say with certainty that neither the tower, nor the shelter has been moved since the time of the assassination.

Okay, let's keep it simple.

Gary couldn't see the tower, period.

We don't know where Thompson's photo was taken from exactly but in the end, common sense says that it was at least taken from the right LOS just maybe a little lower because the photographer wasn't allowed access to the tower on that day.

That photo cannot show the pathway, it's an illusion.

If Gary's 100% certain the tower hasn't moved since '63 then that's the end of it.

The Thompson photo mislead us.

It should be noted that I have since called Robert Groden who spends a great deal of time on the walkway as he vends his merchandise there. Robert also says that the tower cannot be seen from the top of the steps. Robert said that he knew this from his past observations. I then asked if I could call him tomorrow while he was on the walkway and have him on site and visually either confirm or deny the information that Gary Mack reported back to me. Robert Groden agreed to do it. Once this is done, this will validate that Bowers could never have seen Hudson or the other two men on the steps leading down to the street. It will validate that once again someone created a theory from basically nothing without checking even the basics needed to be done to have even considered this matter. I will report what Robert says tomorrow.

The theory was not "based on nothing" it is based on what is said in the "RTJ" transcripts which give far more detail than Bowers' WC testimony.

Bowers is on the record there to Lane saying the men were between the pergola & the fence.

He described the pergola as a "curved decorative wall", then...

"west of this there where two men" & .... "west of that there was a fence"

Pergola > men > fence, simple.

You can rule out Hudson & Co if you must but you can't rule out two other men between the pergola & the fence, who were not caught on camera.

Neither can you know the movements of the third man on the steps who ended up next to Hudson in the minutes leading up to the murder.

Did he walk over towards the fence for some reason & into Bowers view?

From the filmed evidence that man was a little tense, he could of been walking about all over that area.

Why rule that out when you have no idea?

You want to believe he sat calmly on the steps with Hudson for ten minutes before JFK came into view?

That's your crutch.

Both you & Gary believe there was yet another man standing in full view of Bowers filming "the parade". Why not put him behind the fence too?!

Then there's the alleged young couple of Sitzman's & Blackdogman too, all hustling each other for space within a few feet of where Bowers saw two men.

You seem to think(& I notice Gary blatently made the statement) this recent observation puts the men behind the fence.

It does no such thing.

Pergola > men > fence, it's crystal clear in the transcript.

That comes from Bowers himself, the "nothing" is what Lane got from Bowers when he tried to get him to put the men where Holland saw the smoke.

You remarked on how the elevation seemed low to you & how you contacted Thompson in the hope of getting more info on the photo.

You only said it appeared low.

You had no idea it was out of line too, or did you?

I had not ever recalled being able to see the tower while being on the walkway. I knew that the steps curve east as they make their way down to the street, thus putting the landing even further east and behind the shelter when viewed from the tower. It was early on that I spoke to Gary about testing the view fro the tower for me, but somehow Gary had not had the time to do this or he had gotten side-tracked and just forgotten about it.

If you read what Gary told you carefully & can be confirmed in any photo....... from the pathway heading south, the steps curve slightly west at first not east. They only start to curve east after the landing, so the landing itself is actually slightly west of the pathway, not east like you say.

This was the point of my question above & I think you just confirmed it, I just simply wanted to know if it was your observation or not.

You wanted a view from the tower to check the elavation only, a good call but Gary chose the other way about it for good reason & spotted something more important.

Credit where it's due & all that.

As far as the elevation of Josiah's photo goes ... It didn't seem to be looking down on the cars and trucks enough so to be taken from a second story view IMO. When Josiah answered my email - he said that he could not recall at this late date if the photo was taken from inside the tower or from a location just west of it. But like I said, if it is so that one cannot see the tower while on the steps looking back, and Josiahs photo was actually seeing the top of the steps, then Josiah could not have been in the tower, but rather just west of it.

Can you quote Thomson exactly? I would like to know for certain if he mentioned "west of the tower".

If he didn't like I suspect, then ignore this request.

Look at the photo again & think about how far west of the tower this photgrapher had to be in order to get this shot if Gary's observation is correct.

Gary had said that he could move west off the steps and out into the grass and that this would allow him to see part of the tower. If Thompson's photo sees the walkway at the top of the steps, then Josiah could not have been inside the tower, but rather on the west side of it.

Yes I've changed my mind now, after further study of that photo it does not show any clear sign of the pathway but the "impression" of it is still there.

I was pretty sure that it may of just showed the end of the it but, the whiter area where the shadow ends is most likely not where I thought it was at all, a trick of the light & an understandable one I would hope.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Miles Scull]

So then, according to this observation of Gary's, that picture from "SSID" has been misleading us all this time because, it does indeed appear to show part of the south end of the walkway & thus Hudson & Co would of been clearly seen(or part of them) too from where the photographer was standing.

That's the impression we all got.

Alan,

When I look at that photo - I cannot see the walkway from the grass that was between the sidewalk and the fence. I, like you, had assumed that out at the very end of the 'high ground' that possibly that was where the sidewalk was, but I could not even say that with certainty. What I can say with certainty is that yo cannot go to even the first step and stand on the west-most end of it and see the tower because the shelter blocks it from view. I can say with certainty that neither the tower, nor the shelter has been moved since the time of the assassination.

Okay, let's keep it simple.

Gary couldn't see the tower, period.

We don't know where Thompson's photo was taken from exactly but in the end, common sense says that it was at least taken from the right LOS just maybe a little lower because the photographer wasn't allowed access to the tower on that day.

That photo cannot show the pathway, it's an illusion.

If Gary's 100% certain the tower hasn't moved since '63 then that's the end of it.

The Thompson photo mislead us.

It should be noted that I have since called Robert Groden who spends a great deal of time on the walkway as he vends his merchandise there. Robert also says that the tower cannot be seen from the top of the steps. Robert said that he knew this from his past observations. I then asked if I could call him tomorrow while he was on the walkway and have him on site and visually either confirm or deny the information that Gary Mack reported back to me. Robert Groden agreed to do it. Once this is done, this will validate that Bowers could never have seen Hudson or the other two men on the steps leading down to the street. It will validate that once again someone created a theory from basically nothing without checking even the basics needed to be done to have even considered this matter. I will report what Robert says tomorrow.

The theory was not "based on nothing" it is based on what is said in the "RTJ" transcripts which give far more detail than Bowers' WC testimony.

Bowers is on the record there to Lane saying the men were between the pergola & the fence.

He described the pergola as a "curved decorative wall", then...

"west of this there where two men" & .... "west of that there was a fence"

Pergola > men > fence, simple.

You can rule out Hudson & Co if you must but you can't rule out two other men between the pergola & the fence, who were not caught on camera.

Neither can you know the movements of the third man on the steps who ended up next to Hudson in the minutes leading up to the murder.

Did he walk over towards the fence for some reason & into Bowers view?

From the filmed evidence that man was a little tense, he could of been walking about all over that area.

Why rule that out when you have no idea?

You want to believe he sat calmly on the steps with Hudson for ten minutes before JFK came into view?

That's your crutch.

Both you & Gary believe there was yet another man standing in full view of Bowers filming "the parade". Why not put him behind the fence too?!

Then there's the alleged young couple of Sitzman's & Blackdogman too, all hustling each other for space within a few feet of where Bowers saw two men.

You seem to think(& I notice Gary blantently made the statement) this recent observation puts the men behind the fence.

It does no such thing.

Pergola > men > fence, it's crystal clear in the transcript.

That comes from Bowers himself, the "nothing" is what Lane got from Bowers when he tried to get him to put the men where Holland saw the smoke.

You remarked on how the elevation seemed low to you & how you contacted Thompson in the hope of getting more info on the photo.

You only said it appeared low.

You had no idea it was out of line too, or did you?

I had not ever recalled being able to see the tower while being on the walkway. I knew that the steps curve east as they make their way down to the street, thus putting the landing even further east and behind the shelter when viewed from the tower. It was early on that I spoke to Gary about testing the view fro the tower for me, but somehow Gary had not had the time to do this or he had gotten side-tracked and just forgotten about it.

If you read what Gary told you carefully & can be confirmed in any photo....... from the pathway heading south, the steps curve slightly west at first not east. They only start to curve east after the landing, so the landing itself is actually slightly west of the pathway, not east like you say.

This was the point of my question above & I think you just confirmed it, I just simply wanted to know if it was your observation or not.

You wanted a view from the tower to check the elavation only, a good call but Gary chose the other way about it for good reason & spotted something more important.

Credit where it's due & all that.

As far as the elevation of Josiah's photo goes ... It didn't seem to be looking down on the cars and trucks enough so to be taken from a second story view IMO. When Josiah answered my email - he said that he could not recall at this late date if the photo was taken from inside the tower or from a location just west of it. But like I said, if it is so that one cannot see the tower while on the steps looking back, and Josiahs photo was actually seeing the top of the steps, then Josiah could not have been in the tower, but rather just west of it.

Can you quote Thomson exactly? I would like to know for certain if he mentioned "west of the tower".

If he didn't like I suspect, then ignore this request.

Look at the photo again & think about how far west of the tower this photgrapher had to be in order to get this shot if Gary's observation is correct.

Gary had said that he could move west off the steps and out into the grass and that this would allow him to see part of the tower. If Thompson's photo sees the walkway at the top of the steps, then Josiah could not have been inside the tower, but rather on the west side of it.

Yes I've changed my mind now, after further study of that photo it does not show any clear sign of the pathway but the "impression" of it is still there.

I was pretty sure that it may of just showed the end of the it but, the whiter area where the shadow ends is most likely not where I thought it was at all, a trick of the light & an understandable one I would hope.

Alan,

See this:

[Chris Davidson]

Here's another, if it helps.

chris

[Miles Scull]

On further examination:

[Evan Burton]

Miles and others:

Please consider people's download speeds when you post images. The fact that you host off-site is very much appreciated, but if you have a large image consider putting a link (URL) only rather than the image tags.

Having large images slows down our speed; it can also affect those without broadband. If you can link to large images rather than post them, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Edited October 19, 2007 by Evan Burton

[Miles Scull]

Miles and others:

Please consider people's download speeds when you post images. The fact that you host off-site is very much appreciated, but if you have a large image consider putting a link (URL) only rather than the image tags.

Having large images slows down our speed; it can also affect those without broadband. If you can link to large images rather than post them, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Evan,

Hope this works.

If not, please advise. Thx

Link: Bowers' LOS

Link: Bowers' LOS sees stairs

[Miles Scull]

Miles,

That's perfect!!! Thanks.

Kathy

Kathy,

It worked ! I'll try again. -

Here're some curious pole positions:

LINK: Image of LOS & a Pole

LINK: Image of LOS & another Pole

[Bill Miller]

FWIW

I don't think it is possible to see the steps from the tower position.

Well Robin ... its worth a lot! I spoke to Robert Groden today and he said the exact same thing Mack did. Groden even mentioned how he stepped of into the grass and then he could see a portion of the tower. But Robert even went one further - he took digital photos that he said he would email me tonight. I will then post them and hopefully all the poorly researched claims about the three men on the steps being the two men Bowers saw.

Bill

[Chris Davidson]

Miles,

That's perfect!!! Thanks.

Kathy

Sorry about that folks.

Forgot to resize it before posting.

chris

[Bill Miller]

That is correct: the stairs are not seen from the tower. That fact is seen or verified from a look at the aerials.

Bowers never said that he saw the sidewalk stairs.

Bowers saw the two men before the shooting to the west of the stairs on the embankment, in the area of the stairs.

Remember, Bowers said the men moved. [/color][/b]

When Bowers told Ball about these two men ... is it your current position that Bowers was only talking about these men well before the arrival of the president and that all that talk about where he saw the men at the time he heard the shots or witnessed the flash of light/smoke was code talk for meaning an earlier point in time?

[Bill Miller]

Hudson's field of view to the tower from the concrete steps

Hudson's field of view to the tower from the grass

Courtesy of Robert Groden

Obvious conclusion .... Lee Bowers could not even see the end of the sidewalk from inside the tower even if he was looking at the scene from the far west-most part of his tower window.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

View of the first step below the landing showing the LOS into the RR yard that Hudson would have had. It appears that Bowers could not have seen either of the two other men on the steps with Hudson during the shooting so to know where they were when the shots were fired.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Robin Unger]

View of the first step below the landing showing the LOS into the RR yard that Hudson would have had. It appears that Bowers could not have seen either of the two other men on the steps with Hudson during the shooting so to know where they were when the shots were fired.

Thanks for the photo's showing the LOS TO THE TOWER.

I also noticed with particular interest the way the shadows from the trees fall onto the pergola entrance wall, reminding me of the " Moorman " wall shadows.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Robin Unger

[Alan Healy]

View of the first step below the landing showing the LOS into the RR yard that Hudson would have had. It appears that Bowers could not have seen either of the two other men on the steps with Hudson during the shooting so to know where they were when the shots were fired.

Thanks for the photo's showing the LOS TO THE TOWER.

I also noticed with particular interest the way the shadows from the trees fall onto the pergola entrance wall, reminding me of the " Moorman " wall shadows.

Thank you from me too Bill.

Having both Mack & Groden contribute to the same thread turns it into a bit of a classic.

Great work.

[Alan Healy]

Alan,

See this:

Miles, I'm getting mixed messages here.

I have said before that IMO no overhead photo shows Bowers' LOS.

I still believe that.

There's a whacking great tree in the way for starters with any view from the air.

Besides that it's just not accurate enough to convince.

Plus of course now, we have both Mack & Groden telling us you have to stand further west on the grass to see the tower & Robert(via Bill) has provided us images.

So please make me clear on this, are you satisified that Bowers could not see the pathway & any part of the stairs or not?