On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Miles Scull]

I've many times stated that Bowers may easily have seen Hudson & friend at the stairs vicinity at sometime & not necessarily at any specific time.

I've many times stated that Bowers may have seen other individuals at the stairs vicinity at sometime during his period of interval observation.

You have said that the man on the lowest step was the 'red plaid' man that Bowers described.

I never said that. I said that he could have been had he been seen at a time other than the time of the shooting at the area of the stairs. Just as an experiment, ask yourself: did Hudson or his friend go into the grass after the shooting? What arcane wonders are indirectly hinted here:

Bowers said that the two men he saw were looking at the caravan entering the plaza from Main onto Houston. What I have shown through Hudson's own words is that he and the men with him were on the steps - sitting down - thus they could not possibly be the men Bowers described to Ball.

No. Not necessarily. Bowers has admitted that he could have been in error. Also, Hudson's testimony & the time frame developed by that testimony is open to question.

What is NOT in question is that Bowers says that he saw two men in the area of the stairs, whether they were Hudson & friend or two other individuals or a mixture, and not behind the picket fence.

There is no way around that point.

Bill Miller

Moving on:

On the issue of the LOS to Elm from positions north of the fence consider this:

By the way, did you remember Sam (Smokey) Holland's famous words?

Mr. HOLLAND - Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN - Toward---

Mr. HOLLAND - The location that---

Mr. STERN - Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND - Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN - Go ahead. This is at the time of the---

Mr. HOLLAND - At the time of the---

Mr. STERN - That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND - The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN - Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND - In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his---

Mr. STERN - Did you see anything further involving those two?

Mr. HOLLAND - No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the fence.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

Moving on:

What else can you do but move on once it has been shown that the men Bowers was talking about standing and watching the caravan come into the plpaza could not have been Hudson and the others who were positioned on the steps at the time.

On the issue of the LOS to Elm from positions north of the fence consider this:

So I take it that you have re-thought your position on the alleged Duncan floating torso shooter?

And I'd like to point out something to everyone that doesn't sit well in the illustration image you posted previously. You attempted to draw a line from the rifle to a position that would have equated to about Z170, but why do this when it is known that the first shot didn't come until the limo had traveled further west which brings it closer and more into view because of the direction the street ran until one got past Moorman's location? And considering the kill shot didn't come until between Z312 and Z313, would you not agree that the assassin responsible for the smoke had a far better view of the President than when the limo was clear back up to around Z170. But however, none of this takes anything away from someone having a LOS up the street .. it only means that the bullet would have had to travel another 142 feet before reaching the limo.

By the way, nice touch drawing lines through thick tree tops again. It didn't seem to work out in the end the first time you tried it, so why risk making the same mistake again? If your imaginary line is off just a couple of degrees, it could make a big difference in what can actually be seen from the fence. You see, in the real world - the fence is angled just enough that one can see up the street to the corner of Elm and Houston. Even the camera man could see up that far and he had the fence that runs parallel with the walkway between he and the corner.

By the way, did you remember Sam (Smokey) Holland's famous words?

Mr. HOLLAND - Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN - Toward---

Mr. HOLLAND - The location that---

Mr. STERN - Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND - Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN - Go ahead. This is at the time of the---

Mr. HOLLAND - At the time of the---

Mr. STERN - That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND - The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN - Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND - In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his---

Mr. STERN - Did you see anything further involving those two?

Mr. HOLLAND - No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the fence.[/color][/b]

No, Miles ... no one has forgotten it, but the problem is that Bowers was talking about the moments around the shots being fired. You can view the photographic record and not see where anyone has come along and tried to climb the knoll on a motorcycle in the following minutes after the last shot was fired, thus its a moot point when discussing the men Bowers saw when the caravan first entered the plaza and when he could still see one of the men he told Ball about at the time of his attention being drawn to the flash/smoke. I have no doubt that Bowers could have come to a conclusion that when he later seen a motorcycle two thirds the way up the embankment that he would have been been smart enough to have deduced that it jumped the curb to get there.

Now is that the best you got at this point - if so, then you may wish to keep moving on.

Bill Miller

Edited October 27, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Ken Rheberg]

Miles,

You agree with Dale Myers on the location of Bowers' two men. They were on the stairway.

Myers also concluded that Bowers saw no one behind the picket fence.

Do you agree with Myers that Bowers saw no one behind the picket fence?

Ken

Edited October 27, 2007 by Ken Rheberg

[Robin Unger]

Quote:

I hope this helps ... this is a film of Haygood lifting his fallen motorcycle up just before running up the embankment and near the vicinity of where the two men were that Bowers spoke about. (watch starting around the 15 to 17 second mark)

Bill Miller

Is it possible that Haygood did try to ride up the embankment, and what we see in Couch is the period immediately after, Haygood is then caught by Couch STRUGLING to right his Motorcycle after he had come back down to road level. ?

[Bill Miller]

Is it possible that Haygood did try to ride up the embankment, and what we see in Couch is the period immediately after, Haygood is then caught by Couch STRUGLING to right his Motorcycle after he had come back down to road level. ?

That's a fair question, Robin, but Holland seems clear that the cop that dropped his cycle in the street is not the same cop who later tried to ride his motorcycle up over the curb. Furthermore, Bowers said the cop he saw came two thirds of the way up the incline and in the post assassination photos that are available and obviously taken before any cycle is seen laying on the embankment - there isn't anything seen on the knoll that suggest that a Harley had tried to climb the embankment. No ruts in the dirt - no grooves in the grass - no sign at all that this even had occurred before the assassination images taken following the shooting had been shot and those I think cover the first two minutes or so following the shooting. The cycle that tried to go over the curb must have come afterwards and I am surprised that one of the cycle riders didn't mention him doing this in his report or testimony. If there is such a reference (and there may be one somewhere), I haven't seen it.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

Quote:

I hope this helps ... this is a film of Haygood lifting his fallen motorcycle up just before running up the embankment and near the vicinity of where the two men were that Bowers spoke about. (watch starting around the 15 to 17 second mark)

Bill Miller

Is it possible that Haygood did try to ride up the embankment, and what we see in Couch is the period immediately after, Haygood is then caught by Couch STRUGLING to right his Motorcycle after he had come back down to road level. ?

Robin,

Good point.

I'm not clear on this point & I wonder if others are asking the same question.

Is Miller suggesting that the photographic evidential record shows that, despite Bowers' & Holland's testimony, no motorcycle ever jumped the curb & went up the embankment?

[Miles Scull]

Is it possible that Haygood did try to ride up the embankment, and what we see in Couch is the period immediately after, Haygood is then caught by Couch STRUGLING to right his Motorcycle after he had come back down to road level. ?

That's a fair question, Robin, but Holland seems clear that the cop that dropped his cycle in the street is not the same cop who later tried to ride his motorcycle up over the curb. Furthermore, Bowers said the cop he saw came two thirds of the way up the incline and in the post assassination photos that are available and obviously taken before any cycle is seen laying on the embankment - there isn't anything seen on the knoll that suggest that a Harley had tried to climb the embankment. No ruts in the dirt - no grooves in the grass - no sign at all that this even had occurred before the assassination images taken following the shooting had been shot and those I think cover the first two minutes or so following the shooting. The cycle that tried to go over the curb must have come afterwards and I am surprised that one of the cycle riders didn't mention him doing this in his report or testimony. If there is such a reference (and there may be one somewhere), I haven't seen it.

Bill

So, although it may seem difficult to understand, it is entirely POSSIBLE that a motorcycle did in fact actually jump the curb & move up the embankment.

Is that correct?

[Alan Healy]

Towner3 is the only photo to show the clear shape of a bottle period &

if that man was not passing right behind it at the time then it may not even have been spotted at all.

Towner got lucky.

Look closely at the details of the fence in that photo.

Far better than anything else we have.

The slats are clearly distinguishable from one another.

Also, the top of the wall & even the face of it, sharp as a tack(almost).

He/we got lucky.

Betzner, Moorman(the blurred Willis???? why use that as an example?), Towner2, & any other film or photo you care to mention do not show the same level of detail. Detail that is needed to see the bottle.

Look at it another way.

Bond8

Taken after Towner3(10-15sec after *my rough estimate judging by DCM's position* )

You see the same white blob in the same exact spot as you do in Bond4.

It's the bottle, it was there all the time.

Dale Myers & others are probably correct.

It is standing on the wall right in front of BM.

Moorman's camera could not pick it out just like it couldn't pick out the beveled top of the slats on the fence.

You're lookiing for detail in other photos that is just simply not available.

I suggest you test it next time your in the plaza & see whether Myer's postion for it is correct.

If he is right, then it is hard to imagine anyone else but someone at the inside corner of the wall(where I say BDM was yes) placing it there.

For the record & as you know, I was using an digitally improved, high res' scan of the half-tone print from LIFE to make my analysis of BDM.

I've accepted that I was wrong to do that.

When I look at Groden's best capture of BDM from the best print he made available, it does not look as much like an assassin as he did before.

It's not sharp enough, slightly blurred even but I still think he was crouching at the corner of the wall & up to no good yes!

One of the first things I would do as a detective on the scene, would be check that bottle for fingerprints & visit the shop where those "bagobuns" came from that were found on the bench.

But BDM is waaay of topic, get back to the movement in Nix(which may have some connection to who Bowers saw.

Yes, you've always said there's only one person up there but what you just said about the movement you witnessed in the quality version of Nix adds up to two IMO.

The thing is, with the way the dog-leg was angled to Towner when he took his third photo & chamfered at its crown, it is possible to pin-point this bottle to within an inch.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...tleestimate.jpg

It's on the east end of it, nowhere near the pathway.

Whoever put the bottle on the wall was behind the wall & near the corner like BDM was.

To start with, the Betzner and Willis photos show two different angles to the corner of the wall in relation to the Black Dog Man(BDM) and in neither photograpgh I DO NOT see a bottle sitting on the wall. The same applies to Moorman's photograph IMO.

Now I am going to go along with something that you have contended in the past and see how it plays out and please correct me if I have misstated something. It has been your contention that the BDM was an assassin - that the white area that I say is the sunlight shining down upon his right shoulder is a flash from a gun or smoke. Because that white spot is seen in both the Betzner and Willis photos, and in Betzner there is no bottle seen on the wall, then are we to assume that after firing a shot at the President that the BDM then took the time to pick up a bottle and set it on the wall?

And if it is found that there is no bottle on the wall in Towner #2, is it your contention that while hiding behind the wall ... the BDM then reaches up with his hand so to sit a bottle on the wall?

One other point - if the bottle is supposed to be the white area over the corner of the wall and not the flash of Badge Man shooting a rifle ... is not Badge Man's alleged flash directly over the corner of the wall in Moorman's photo?

Bill Miller

Edited October 27, 2007 by Alan Healy

[Alan Healy]

Myers pushes the idea that the flash and part of the Badge Man is a Coke bottle. But as you pointed out in Towner #3, the bottle appears to be a few inches west of the middle of the wall where the two sides connect. The Badge Man and his alleged flash are to our right of the corner of the wall when the bottle should be about a foot to our left of the corner of the wall. Below is the Badge Man image. The upward angle to the wall shows the south dog leg angling one way (west) from the corner and the other eastern side of the wall is angling the other way (north).

As Craig Lamson pointed out recently, you don't use the blow-ups to find the corner of the wall.

It's true position there has been obliterated.

Use this instead.

Badgemans flash is actually slightly to the west of the corner as we see it.

This lines up with the Towner3 bottle very well but, at the moment I find it hard to believe that light hitting the very neck of a bottle would reflect that much.

I have to admit however that BM's flash lines up(albeit slightly higher than the rest) with the white blobs in Nix, Muchmore & Bond if you imagine it's something sitting on the wall.

I have asked Gary Mack to look at the Towner #2 images as well to get his opinion. If it is found that no bottle is on the wall in that picture, then Myers is wrong and if the bottle can be seen in a better print, then the question as to when it got there is still a mystery to me.

I would not rule it out just based on Towner2 no matter how good the print.

Okay, maybe if it shows the same amount of detail Towner3 does I would but, from what I've seen of both pictures T3 is superior in that regard, especially in the details around the area we are looking at.

[Bill Miller]

I'm not clear on this point & I wonder if others are asking the same question.

Is Miller suggesting that the photographic evidential record shows that, despite Bowers' & Holland's testimony, no motorcycle ever jumped the curb & went up the embankment?

Miles,

Maybe read what I said again, but slower if need be. I said, "no sign at all that this even had occurred before the assassination images taken following the shooting had been shot and those I think cover the first two minutes or so following the shooting. The cycle that tried to go over the curb must have come afterwards". Now if after reading this once again that you need me to break down this simple statement so even you can understand it, then let me know and I will be happy to try and find a way to make it simpler for you.

Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

This is not Hollands exact view but slightly south of it, as most will know.

Holland: ....one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand,

[Where did he run to?]

Where I saw the puff of smoke...

...and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there...

That has & always will be, Hargis & Haygood.

There is absolutely no reason to believe another cop tried the same trick as Haygood & also landed on his arse.

This wasn't an episode of "Keystone Cops".

Hargis left his bike in the street & ran up the hill with his gun out & we all know why.

From Hollands view, it would of looked like Hargis ran to the same area where he saw the smoke drifting out from the trees.

That's the way it would have looked.

Haygood did not run to the smoke or the wall, he ran to the end of the overpass where it meets the fence.

Why Holland said he drove up the incline on his bike is a mystery, maybe, just maybe, he wanted to save that cop some embarassment by not telling everyone how foolish he looked when he tried to jump the curb & the bike ended up on top of him & if you check Haygoods testimony, he too conveniently left out the part where the bike won the fight.

Is it possible that Haygood did try to ride up the embankment, and what we see in Couch is the period immediately after, Haygood is then caught by Couch STRUGLING to right his Motorcycle after he had come back down to road level. ?

That's a fair question, Robin, but Holland seems clear that the cop that dropped his cycle in the street is not the same cop who later tried to ride his motorcycle up over the curb. Furthermore, Bowers said the cop he saw came two thirds of the way up the incline and in the post assassination photos that are available and obviously taken before any cycle is seen laying on the embankment - there isn't anything seen on the knoll that suggest that a Harley had tried to climb the embankment. No ruts in the dirt - no grooves in the grass - no sign at all that this even had occurred before the assassination images taken following the shooting had been shot and those I think cover the first two minutes or so following the shooting. The cycle that tried to go over the curb must have come afterwards and I am surprised that one of the cycle riders didn't mention him doing this in his report or testimony. If there is such a reference (and there may be one somewhere), I haven't seen it.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

This is not Hollands exact view but slightly south of it, as most will know.

Holland: ....one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand,

[Where did he run to?]

Where I saw the puff of smoke...

...and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there...

That has & always will be, Hargis & Haygood.

There is absolutely no reason to believe another cop tried the same trick as Haygood & also landed on his arse.

This wasn't an episode of "Keystone Cops".

Hargis left his bike in the street & ran up the hill with his gun out & we all know why.

From Hollands view, it would of looked like Hargis ran to the same area where he saw the smoke drifting out from the trees.

That's the way it would have looked.

Haygood did not run to the smoke or the wall, he ran to the end of the overpass where it meets the fence.

Why Holland said he drove up the incline on his bike is a mystery, maybe, just maybe, he wanted to save that cop some embarassment by not telling everyone how foolish he looked when he tried to jump the curb & the bike ended up on top of him & if you check Haygoods testimony, he too conveniently left out the part where the bike won the fight.

Is it possible that Haygood did try to ride up the embankment, and what we see in Couch is the period immediately after, Haygood is then caught by Couch STRUGLING to right his Motorcycle after he had come back down to road level. ?

That's a fair question, Robin, but Holland seems clear that the cop that dropped his cycle in the street is not the same cop who later tried to ride his motorcycle up over the curb. Furthermore, Bowers said the cop he saw came two thirds of the way up the incline and in the post assassination photos that are available and obviously taken before any cycle is seen laying on the embankment - there isn't anything seen on the knoll that suggest that a Harley had tried to climb the embankment. No ruts in the dirt - no grooves in the grass - no sign at all that this even had occurred before the assassination images taken following the shooting had been shot and those I think cover the first two minutes or so following the shooting. The cycle that tried to go over the curb must have come afterwards and I am surprised that one of the cycle riders didn't mention him doing this in his report or testimony. If there is such a reference (and there may be one somewhere), I haven't seen it.

Bill

Alan,

Is Miller saying that there is zero photographic evidence that proves that a motorcycle rider did not go up the embankment such that Bowers' report of seeing this is invalidated?

I believe that is what Miller is trying to say & for once I believe Miller is correct!

Mercy.

[Bill Miller]

As Craig Lamson pointed out recently, you don't use the blow-ups to find the corner of the wall.

It's true position there has been obliterated.

Use this instead.

I gotta say that the Moorman image you have used isn't anywhere as sharp and detailed as the one Jack had. Why anyone would still care to use the more blurry and degraded images over sharper ones for research purposes is beyond my comprehension. I might also add that the shade line isn't the exact corner of the wall for the wall is rounded and the shade stops just north of the true center because that part of the wall was facing away from the sun at the time of the assassination. On Jack's image and probably on this one - you can place a straight edge on the top of the wall on both sides and see where they intersect and probably get a more accurate idea as to where the center of the wall is.

[Bill Miller]

Holland: ....one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand,

[Where did he run to?]

Where I saw the puff of smoke...

...and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he---tipped over with him up there...

Holland seems to be saying that the cop actually did jump the curb with his cycle and that the bike tipped over up the hill with the cop on it. Bowers independently said that a cop came 2/3s of the way up the hill before leaving his cycle. So I cannot see Bowers ever knowing anyone had trouble getting over the curb, so how would he be saving anyone of embarrassment? And anyone making it over one curb would also have to deal with the curb on the north end of the sidewalk, as well. So because Holland said the cop tipped over "up there" and Bowers said he saw a cop at a point that was most of the way up the embankment, then one has to wonder if at some point there really was a cycle that came up the incline.

That has & always will be, Hargis & Haygood.

There is absolutely no reason to believe another cop tried the same trick as Haygood & also landed on his arse.

This wasn't an episode of "Keystone Cops".

If an officer hadn't seen Haygood dismounting his bike, then how would one know what to or not to try when jumping the curb?

Hargis left his bike in the street & ran up the hill with his gun out & we all know why.

From Hollands view, it would of looked like Hargis ran to the same area where he saw the smoke drifting out from the trees.

That's the way it would have looked.

Hargis in the road ............................

Haygood did not run to the smoke or the wall, he ran to the end of the overpass where it meets the fence.

Gary Mack has said that the cop seen under the road sign is Haygood, so where is Hargis???

Why Holland said he drove up the incline on his bike is a mystery, maybe, just maybe, he wanted to save that cop some embarassment by not telling everyone how foolish he looked when he tried to jump the curb & the bike ended up on top of him & if you check Haygoods testimony, he too conveniently left out the part where the bike won the fight.

Maybe Haygood didn't mention losing a fight with a curb because he didn't try running over it.

Bill Miller

Edited October 27, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

As Craig Lamson pointed out recently, you don't use the blow-ups to find the corner of the wall.

It's true position there has been obliterated.

Use this instead.

I gotta say that the Moorman image you have used isn't anywhere as sharp and detailed as the one Jack had. Why anyone would still care to use the more blurry and degraded images over sharper ones for research purposes is beyond my comprehension.

You posted a crop from the blow-up where what used to be the wall's corner has been obliterated.

I posted a crop from the drum scan(reduced in size obviously), where the corner is still intact & then, you start talking about something else.

The blow-up you posted is the blurry & degraded one(we are still talking about the wall's corner right?).

If you want everyone to refer to the image Jack had, then try to talk Gary into releasing what he has left of those images in his private collection to you & then everyone.

Jack has told me he doesn't have them anymore, Gary does.

Until then please stop referring to images that no one but the chosen ones have seen.

I might also add that the shade line isn't the exact corner of the wall for the wall is rounded and the shade stops just north of the true center because that part of the wall was facing away from the sun at the time of the assassination. On Jack's image and probably on this one - you can place a straight edge on the top of the wall on both sides and see where they intersect and probably get a more accurate idea as to where the center of the wall is.

The shade line is the best clue we have to the wall's corner from an image with the quality of M5.

You would be insane to put a straight edge on what you just posted of Jack's image & it is no longer "Jack's" but Gary's.

It doesn't help you on the drumscan either, that image is just not good enough to do that with the amount of accuracy we would like & it points to the same spot where the shade stops anyway.