Robert Prudhomme Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 He may have been reacting to what you call "throat trauma" but, how does that establish that the projectile causing this came from the front, Cliff? It was generally described at Parkland as a wound of entrance in spite of all attempts to parse badgered WC testimony. The wound had no exit The Mantik-Seal-of-Approval-Genuine neck x-ray shows an air pocket overlaying the right C7/T1 transverse processes -- that trajectory points to the throat entrance. The neck x-ray destroys the skull fragment/exit scenario. Only if the neck x-ray is genuine. Custer seemed to think it wasn't. Mantik says it isn't a matter of doubt -- the neck x-ray is genuine. Custer has been all over the map. Prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 The issue I am addressing is whether the wound was above or below the collar line, but of course that is directly related to the DP v. Parkland issue. Tom Okay, the Dealey Plaza witnesses and photos/film and the neck x-ray indicate he was shot in the throat in Dealey Plaza. Draw your own conclusions from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I thought the issue was where the throat wound was created -- Dealey or Parkland? If that's not the issue -- my bad. The issue I am addressing is whether the wound was above or below the collar line, but of course that is directly related to the DP v. Parkland issue. IMO, the wound occurred in DP not in Parkland. But there are question marks here dependent upon a throat wound located ABOVE the collar or BELOW. If below the collar, where is the hole in the shirt corresponding to the wound? Do round bullets make a 1/2" vertical slit in a shirt and a 1/5" round hole in the body and leave "No bullet material?" On this basis alone a stronger case is made for an above the collar wound. If above the collar, what made the slit and the nick? Not blunt-nosed scissors...how does a trained RN removing a necktie with a scalpel cut a slit completely through multiple layers of cloth without slicing into JFK's neck? Each option has it's positives and its negatives. Tom That sums things up quite well, Tom, although I feel that Ashton has demonstrated quite well that the openings in the shirt collar were not exactly slits. If the wound is below the collar, and there was no metal residue left on the shirt collar material, this only leaves a certain number of options open. 1. We are mistaken about organic residue on bullets, and the bullet (or bullet fragment) exiting JFK's neck was coated in organic matter and left no residue on the collar. So JFK reacted to throat trauma prior to having a bullet fragment exit his throat? 2. Cliff is right and a projectile made from plastic either entered or exited JFK's throat, also nicking the tie and going through the shirt collar. Where does this "exit" stuff come from? 3. A fragment of bone from JFK's neck exited his throat, nicking his tie knot and passing through his shirt collar on the way through. So he was shot in the head and reacted to a bullet fragment leaving his throat? Which means the neck x-ray is faked? If you insist on ignoring all the witness testimony and photographic evidence, any scenario is" viable", I guess... 4. Ashton is right and everything (wound in throat, hole in collar and nick in tie) was made by an assassin with a 1/4" diameter needle connected to a syringe full of non-traceable poison. Right, so he reacted to throat trauma ten minutes before Bowron shivved him in the throat. Riiiiight.... I cannot think of any other possibilities, but please add on to this list if you think of anything else. Cliff The difficulty I have with you is that, while I am willing to concede there is very little in this case that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, you, on the other hand, expound theories as if they were proven facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 He may have been reacting to what you call "throat trauma" but, how does that establish that the projectile causing this came from the front, Cliff? It was generally described at Parkland as a wound of entrance in spite of all attempts to parse badgered WC testimony. The wound had no exit The Mantik-Seal-of-Approval-Genuine neck x-ray shows an air pocket overlaying the right C7/T1 transverse processes -- that trajectory points to the throat entrance. The neck x-ray destroys the skull fragment/exit scenario. Only if the neck x-ray is genuine. Custer seemed to think it wasn't. Mantik says it isn't a matter of doubt -- the neck x-ray is genuine. Custer has been all over the map. Prove it. Custer put the back wound in two different locations, for instance. Want to explain the point of faking the neck x-ray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I thought the issue was where the throat wound was created -- Dealey or Parkland? If that's not the issue -- my bad. The issue I am addressing is whether the wound was above or below the collar line, but of course that is directly related to the DP v. Parkland issue. IMO, the wound occurred in DP not in Parkland. But there are question marks here dependent upon a throat wound located ABOVE the collar or BELOW. If below the collar, where is the hole in the shirt corresponding to the wound? Do round bullets make a 1/2" vertical slit in a shirt and a 1/5" round hole in the body and leave "No bullet material?" On this basis alone a stronger case is made for an above the collar wound. If above the collar, what made the slit and the nick? Not blunt-nosed scissors...how does a trained RN removing a necktie with a scalpel cut a slit completely through multiple layers of cloth without slicing into JFK's neck? Each option has it's positives and its negatives. Tom That sums things up quite well, Tom, although I feel that Ashton has demonstrated quite well that the openings in the shirt collar were not exactly slits. If the wound is below the collar, and there was no metal residue left on the shirt collar material, this only leaves a certain number of options open. 1. We are mistaken about organic residue on bullets, and the bullet (or bullet fragment) exiting JFK's neck was coated in organic matter and left no residue on the collar. So JFK reacted to throat trauma prior to having a bullet fragment exit his throat? 2. Cliff is right and a projectile made from plastic either entered or exited JFK's throat, also nicking the tie and going through the shirt collar. Where does this "exit" stuff come from? 3. A fragment of bone from JFK's neck exited his throat, nicking his tie knot and passing through his shirt collar on the way through. So he was shot in the head and reacted to a bullet fragment leaving his throat? Which means the neck x-ray is faked? If you insist on ignoring all the witness testimony and photographic evidence, any scenario is" viable", I guess... 4. Ashton is right and everything (wound in throat, hole in collar and nick in tie) was made by an assassin with a 1/4" diameter needle connected to a syringe full of non-traceable poison. Right, so he reacted to throat trauma ten minutes before Bowron shivved him in the throat. Riiiiight.... I cannot think of any other possibilities, but please add on to this list if you think of anything else. Cliff The difficulty I have with you is that, while I am willing to concede there is very little in this case that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, you, on the other hand, expound theories as if they were proven facts. Robert, please be more specific. Are you actually insisting he reacted to throat trauma prior to getting a wound in his throat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Are we to believe JFK was shot in the head prior to Z225 and he reacted to the bullet fragment exiting his throat, but not the shot in the head? How come no one saw that he was shot in the head until Z313? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 I feel that Ashton has demonstrated quite well that the openings in the shirt collar were not exactly slits.1. There were no openings in the shirt collar at all that I'm aware of, so first confirm you are talking about the vertical slits in the shirt itself, or tell me what "openings in the shirt collar" that "were not exactly slits" you are referring to. 2. Please quote what Ashton said that indicates the "openings" were "not exactly slits" because all I recall is his statements they "overlap perfectly", and there is no material missing. I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. 1. We are mistaken about organic residue on bullets, and the bullet (or bullet fragment) exiting JFK's neck was coated in organic matter and left no residue on the collar. 2. Cliff is right and a projectile made from plastic either entered or exited JFK's throat, also nicking the tie and going through the shirt collar. 3. A fragment of bone from JFK's neck exited his throat, nicking his tie knot and passing through his shirt collar on the way through. 4. Ashton is right and everything (wound in throat, hole in collar and nick in tie) was made by an assassin with a 1/4" diameter needle connected to a syringe full of non-traceable poison. I've already stated that I think 1,3 & 4 are highly improbable, and I don't think that 2 is what Cliff is saying, so I wouldn't include any of them on a list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 The issue I am addressing is whether the wound was above or below the collar line, but of course that is directly related to the DP v. Parkland issue. Tom Okay, the Dealey Plaza witnesses and photos/film and the neck x-ray indicate he was shot in the throat in Dealey Plaza. Draw your own conclusions from that. The issue I am addressing is whether the wound was above or below the collar line, but of course that is directly related to the DP v. Parkland issue. Tom Okay, the Dealey Plaza witnesses and photos/film and the neck x-ray indicate he was shot in the throat in Dealey Plaza. Draw your own conclusions from that. Cliff, My conclusions are: 1. "he was shot in the throat in Dealey Plaza" is NOT an answer to the question "was the wound above the collar or below" 2. for whatever your reason, you are providing rude answers obviously designed to provoke me 3. in the future you can be sure I won't be asking your opinion on anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Cliff is right (and I was wrong), the front of the knot isn't up against the bottom of the Adams apple. Now that somebody (Robert) acknowledged my post about the slit being on the back side of the tie, I decided to spend more time studying that. I found a tie that has a repetitive icon patterned and tied it as closely as possible to match how JFK's looked. I tied it "sloppily" to match the "sloppiness" of JFk's tie. When finished it looked identical to JFk's tie (same shape, tightness, and sloppiness). The only difference being that mine has six icons per row on the knot, not five. Then I determined with more accuracy where the location of the nick would be if it were moved around to the right (JFK's right) by two icons. Or, in the case of my tie, by 2 x 6/5 = 2.4 icons, to account for the 6 icons per row, not 5. The location came out to be on the side of the knot, at the very back of the side. One end of the nick would touch the shirt (if the knot were pushed up against the shirt), but not the other end. MOVING ON.... I found an animated gif that Ashton posted years ago, that I think is very well done and very informative. I post it below. (Posted years ago by Cliff.) (Posted years ago by Ashton.) If you made this gif, Ashton, my hat's off to you. Very well done. Very informative. The red arrow points to the left corner of the gash, just below the top margin of the gash. I estimate that the holes in the shirt are about 1/4" below that pointer. Looking at the stare-of-death photo, I'd say that the shirt holes are located at the very bottom of the gash. (Posted on jfkmurdersolved.com .) Based on all the above, I'm inclined to believe that -- at the time of the shooting -- JFK's tie knot was shifted a bit to his left. A projectile exited the throat, made the two holes in the shirt, nicked the tie knot on its right side (JFK's right), and went on its way. I see very little reason to believe the neck wound was above the shirt collar. If it was, the cover-up artists did a great job covering it up. Even the witnesses at Bethesda didn't notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 If somebody could find the photo I mentioned that Tom posted, I'd be happy to reconsider my position if that photo provides clues to support another theory. Sandy, Which photo are you referring to above? Tom Somebody (you, I thought) posted a picture of the complete necktie showing how it had been cut. I responded by saying it looked like it had been cut with a scalpel/knife, not scissors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Based on all the above, I'm inclined to believe that -- at the time of the shooting -- JFK's tie knot was shifted a bit to his left. A projectile exited the throat, made the two holes in the shirt, nicked the tie knot on its right side (JFK's right), and went on its way. The FBI report states that the nick in the tie was on the left. Why do you think that it was actually on the right? They certainly would have lied about this if it was to their benefit, but I can't think of a reason to lie about this. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Are we to believe JFK was shot in the head prior to Z225 and he reacted to the bullet fragment exiting his throat, but not the shot in the head? How come no one saw that he was shot in the head until Z313? For all we know, JFK could have been reacting to a collapsed lung when he brought his hands up to his neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Based on all the above, I'm inclined to believe that -- at the time of the shooting -- JFK's tie knot was shifted a bit to his left. A projectile exited the throat, made the two holes in the shirt, nicked the tie knot on its right side (JFK's right), and went on its way. The FBI report states that the nick in the tie was on the left. Why do you think that it was actually on the right? They certainly would have lied about this if it was to their benefit, but I can't think of a reason to lie about this. Tom Did the FBI indicate to whose left the nick was located. (Sorry I ask... I just need to be sure.) I placed it on JFK's right because if you place it to his left it moves up significantly. (Due to the way the knot is made.) In which case it is higher than the holes in the shirt. But not above the shirt (of course). So there is no way to explain how the nick got there. If the nick was to JFK's left, it could not have been related to the projectile at all. Correct me if I'm wrong. (If you have to, make a knot in a tie and check for yourself.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Neck Shot Options 1. We are mistaken about organic residue on bullets, and the bullet (or bullet fragment) exiting JFK's neck was coated in organic matter and left no residue on the collar. 2. Cliff is right and a projectile made from plastic either entered or exited JFK's throat, also nicking the tie and going through the shirt collar. 3. A fragment of bone from JFK's neck exited his throat, nicking his tie knot and passing through his shirt collar on the way through. 4. Ashton is right and everything (wound in throat, hole in collar and nick in tie) was made by an assassin with a 1/4" diameter needle connected to a syringe full of non-traceable poison. I cannot think of any other possibilities, but please add on to this list if you think of anything else. I would modify your list to the following (changes in red): 1. We are mistaken about organic residue on bullets, and the bullet (or bullet fragment) exiting JFK's neck was coated in organic matter and left no residue on the shirt collar. 2. Cliff is right and a plastic projectile entered JFK's throat above the shirt's collar. Don't know where the shirt holes or tie nick came from. This true (higher) neck wound was successfully covered up, and a lower one faked in its place. 3. A plastic projectile either entered or exited JFK's throat, also nicking the tie and going through the shirt collar. 4. A fragment of bone from JFK's neck exited his throat, nicking his tie knot and passing through his shirt collar on the way through. 5. Ashton is right and everything (wound in throat, hole in shirt collar and nick in tie) was made by an assassin with a 1/4" diameter needle connected to a syringe full of non-traceable poison. Tom believes all these scenarios are improbable. I invite him to add what he believes happened, one entry for an above-the-collar wound, and another entry for a below-the-collar wound. Then this list will be complete, I think. I'm gonna bump this list periodically so that it can be modified as needed. I want to include this important (imo) animated gif: (Posted by Ashton years ago.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Did the FBI indicate to whose left the nick was located.JFK's anatomical left. My posts keep disappearing and I'm tired of re-typing them, so I'm replying without elaboration. The next post that disappears will be last post on this site - too irritating to be worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now