Apollo 17: A Little More Controversy

[Duane Daman]

Anyone making claims about the Van Allen belts being an inpenetrable wall of radiation that humans can't pass through is doing little more than handwaving.

I believe that the Van Allen radiation belts are far more dangerous for humans than NASA's scientists have admitted to .... Of course they would have to down play how deadly they are because if Dr. James Van Allen's and Nazi rocket scientist Werner Von Braun's original scientific findings were allowed to stand, then NASA would have an awful lot of explaining to do as to how they allegedly sent nine manned missions through the belts and onto the Moon without anyone even puking, much less frying .

The Shuttle missions have avoided the belts like the plague for decades and even the ISS shuts down much of their equipment while traveling near the lowest and less dangerous part of the lower belt .

As for Collier's claims about the dust hitting a wall of atmosphere, he was merely explainng how air resistance stopped the dust from fying as far as it should have had it really been filmed in a 1/6 gravity vacuum .. It makes sense to me .

Hey Dave ... I'm putting in an order for some new T-shirts and was wondering what color or style you might like ? ... I found one for your lady friend too !

I'm kinda partial to this one for me .

And this matching one for my girlfriend .

I picked out this one for you .

And this pretty pink one for your lady .

If you don't like my picks, then check out this web site for some different choices and I will be happy to order them for you when I order mine !

http://www.cafepress.com/timewarp_tshirt/2889160

Edited January 30, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Dave Greer]

Anyone making claims about the Van Allen belts being an inpenetrable wall of radiation that humans can't pass through is doing little more than handwaving.

I believe that the Van Allen radiation belts are far more dangerous for humans than NASA's scientists have admitted to .... Of course they would have to down play how deadly they are because if Dr. James Van Allen's and Nazi rocket scientist Werner Von Braun's original scientific findings were allowed to stand, then NASA would have an awful lot of explaining to do as to how they allegedly sent nine manned missions through the belts and onto the Moon without anyone even puking, much less frying .

You're entitled to your belief, but is that belief based on the facts, or a need to have a showstopper for the hoax theory to hold any water?

As for the late Dr Van Allen, here's his take on the situation: "The recent Fox TV show, which I saw, is an ingenious and entertaining assemblage of nonsense. The claim that radiation exposure during the Apollo missions would have been fatal to the astronauts is only one example of such nonsense."

If radiation levels were so much higher than stated that they would kill an astronaut who took about an hour to travel through the outer edges in a well-shielded command module, satellite failures would be very high indeed, since satellite designers rely on published data to protect delicate components from damage.

If NASA is continuing to send probes into the belts, then it blows out of the water the idea that only a very small amount of people are "in the know" about the "Apollo hoax". Top brass in successive years must know about it, as must the scientists responsible for analysing data returned by probes. For example, the Radiation Belt Storm Probes Mission planned for 2012 involves the science departments from the Universities of Boston, Iowa and Minnesota, and the Jersey Institute of Technology. How many more people must NASA keep on paying off to lie about the results?

On top of that, the belts aren't just NASA's preserve. Any nation with a space programme has the ability to send probes into the belts for research purposes to measure radiation intensities. Europe (ESA), Japan, India, China, Russia. I suppose they're all quite happy to go along with NASA's great lie about exactly how dangerous the belts are, now and for all time? In the meantime, those satellites in the belts keep on working within expected parameters. Strange that...

The Shuttle missions have avoided the belts like the plague for decades and even the ISS shuts down much of their equipment while traveling near the lowest and less dangerous part of the lower belt .

Why would a space shuttle deliberately expose astronauts to the belts for no gain? Remember, the Apollo astronauts skirted the less dangerous parts of the belts in about an hour. A ten day shuttle mission that orbitted through the same region would expose astronauts to 240 TIMES as much radiation. What is to be gained from this?

The ISS does indeed travel through the South Atlantic Anomaly (SAA), several times each day. Why do you suppose astronauts living on board the ISS, and performing 8 hour EVAs, aren't being fried to death in their suits by the radiation they encounter? Is it because the hazard has been blown out of all proportion on certain pro-Hoax disinformation sites?

As for Collier's claims about the dust hitting a wall of atmosphere, he was merely explainng how air resistance stopped the dust from fying as far as it should have had it really been filmed in a 1/6 gravity vacuum .. It makes sense to me .

No, that's not what he actually said. I've had to endure another 30 minutes of "Was It Only A Paper Moon" to get the actual quote. "It goes up, hits the atmosphere and stops". He makes this statement several times. He's just misinterpreted what he's seeing. The dust does go up, but since gravity is acting on it it slows down until it does indeed stop when each individual particle reaches it's maximum height, then immediately starts falling back to the lunar surface. Nothing whatsoever to do with a "wall of atmosphere" stopping the dust.

Hey Dave ... I'm putting in an order for some new T-shirts and was wondering what color or style you might like ? ... I found one for your lady friend too !

If you don't like my picks, then check out this web site for some different choices and I will be happy to order them for you when I order mine !

http://www.cafepress.com/timewarp_tshirt/2889160

I'd have one of the mugs, the lads at work would appreciate the irony.

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think my lady-friend would appreciate the T-shirt.

[Evan Burton]

I think I prefer these:

[Duane Daman]

Oh hi Evan ... I was just catching up on some of the nasty comments posted about the CT's on the Apollo Hoax forum ... For instance, here's your latest post about Jarrah White .... You sure didn't waste any time with the typical character assassination did you ?

"After looking at some of this person's claims, I really do ask the question:

Is he cognitively challenged?

Does he check any of the claims he makes?

Does he simply seek things that "look" wrong to his untrained eye and then shout "The sky is falling!"? He has demonstrated a pattern of not checking his facts, but merely making outlandish claims.

(I liked his 'Jay is a self-proclaimed aerospace engineer'; might as well burn those degrees, Jay - they won't do you no good no how!)

I'm trying to figure out the reasons behind his disorder. Is it because of his ego, which will not allow him to admit he might be wrong?

Does he suffer from some type of authority fixation, whereby he must disbelieve anything any type of "authority" says?

Or is he simply a stupid person who does not bother to research his claims before making them?

Hmmm."

And here's one of your very kind posts about me .

"He really is a classic example of "projection", isn't he? So many things that he claims other people do when he himself is the guilty party.

My favourite is that he is the most abusive poster on the forum... but accuses everyone else of insulting behaviour.

Quite amazing! "

And this one ..

"Oooh. David C says Jack White is a plant. Duane considers himself a JW successor. Both are adamant in their views. Both are firm HBs.

Who will win? Is Duane the secret love-child of Jack White? Is David more perceptive and about to blow Jack's CIA cover of more than 40 years? Find out on "The Young and the Witless".

Hi Duane! "

And there's more insults and character assassinations about Jack but I really don't have the heart to post them here .

I really like your little orange jump suit and ball cap claiming that "Failure is Not an Option. " ... No, it really wasn't was it ? ... Like ole' Bill Kaying used to say ..."If you can't make it, fake it !"

Here's a little game I found for you and your fellow bullies to play while you don your little orange suits and ball caps and pretend that all was well with Apollo... I'm sure you've seen it before but it's such a fun game that I just had to post it again .

Edited January 30, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Duane Daman]

You're entitled to your belief, but is that belief based on the facts, or a need to have a showstopper for the hoax theory to hold any water?

Deep space radiation not only was the showstopper for the Apollo missions but it will also be the showstopper for any future manned missions that attempt to land humans on the Moon .

If NASA is continuing to send probes into the belts, then it blows out of the water the idea that only a very small amount of people are "in the know" about the "Apollo hoax". Top brass in successive years must know about it, as must the scientists responsible for analysing data returned by probes. For example, the Radiation Belt Storm Probes Mission planned for 2012 involves the science departments from the Universities of Boston, Iowa and Minnesota, and the Jersey Institute of Technology. How many more people must NASA keep on paying off to lie about the results?

I'm sure the top brass in successive years knows all about the cover up concerning the Apollo missions and they also obviously know about the extreme dangers of deep space radiation to humans also .

The link you provided for the 2012 Radiation Belt Storm Probes Mission pretty much refuted your own claims of how safe the belts are and proves that scientists still need to study the dangers of the Van Allen belt radiation and it's effects on humans before safely sending manned missions into deep space ...

"NASA Selects Teams for Space Weather Mission and Studies

Four university teams will share $100 million to provide experiments and supporting hardware for a future NASA mission to study near-Earth space radiation. This type of radiation is hazardous to astronauts, orbiting satellites and aircraft flying high altitude polar routes.

The teams will initially use $4.2 million to perform a one-year cost, management and technical study prior to assembling and testing their scientific payload for the mission. The anticipated lifetime cost of payload development is $96 million.

Called the Radiation Belt Storm Probes, the two-spacecraft mission is scheduled for launch in 2012. The mission will study how accumulations of space radiation form and change during space storms. Space weather storms involve constantly changing magnetic and electric fields and gusts of radiation particles that produce intense energy. This energy can black out long-distance communications over entire continents and disrupt the global navigational system."

Why spend all of that money to study deep space radiation if it isn't at all dangerous and astronauts can just sail right through it without any health risks ?

It seems like that money could be well spent on other things since there is no real problem with humans and sattelites being in the radiation belts ... Or is there ? ... and maybe that's the real reason why NASA can't even attempt to send humans "back to the Moon" until 2020 ?

Edited January 30, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Evan Burton]

Duane,

Your repetition of my post just demonstrates my opinion about you.

As for Jarrah - he is a screwball, with no training in the sciences and no ability in them either. He has constantly made errors which when pointed out to him, he denies. I don't think he has raised a valid point yet. He is such a nobody I surprise myself I bother to remark about him here. He is a nobody trying to be a wannabe. He should spend more time dressing up in his James Bond costumes; it is far more productive.

[Dave Greer]

Deep space radiation not only was the showstopper for the Apollo missions but it will also be the showstopper for any future manned missions that attempt to land humans on the Moon .

Like I said, you can believe what you like, but it isn't backed up by any facts.

The link you provided for the 2012 Radiation Belt Storm Probes Mission pretty much refuted your own claims of how safe the belts are and proves that scientists still need to study the dangers of the Van Allen belt radiation and it's effects on humans before safely sending manned missions into deep space ...

Heaven forbid that scientists should actually try to improve their current level of knowledge by gathering and analyzing more data!

"NASA Selects Teams for Space Weather Mission and Studies

Four university teams will share $100 million to provide experiments and supporting hardware for a future NASA mission to study near-Earth space radiation. This type of radiation is hazardous to astronauts, orbiting satellites and aircraft flying high altitude polar routes.

The teams will initially use $4.2 million to perform a one-year cost, management and technical study prior to assembling and testing their scientific payload for the mission. The anticipated lifetime cost of payload development is $96 million.

Called the Radiation Belt Storm Probes, the two-spacecraft mission is scheduled for launch in 2012. The mission will study how accumulations of space radiation form and change during space storms. Space weather storms involve constantly changing magnetic and electric fields and gusts of radiation particles that produce intense energy. This energy can black out long-distance communications over entire continents and disrupt the global navigational system."

Why spend all of that money to study deep space radiation if it isn't at all dangerous and astronauts can just sail right through it without any health risks ?

You can't have read the article, especially one of the sentences you highlighted.

"a future NASA mission to study near-Earth space radiation. This type of radiation is hazardous to astronauts, orbiting satellites and aircraft flying high altitude polar routes."

The mission isn't trying to determine whether it's safe for astronauts to fly through less intense parts of the belts on the way to the moon.

"The mission will study how accumulations of space radiation form and change during space storms."

It seems like that money could be well spent on other things since there is no real problem with humans and sattelites being in the radiation belts ... Or is there ? ... and maybe that's the real reason why NASA can't even attempt to send humans "back to the Moon" until 2020 ?

There are very real problems with satellites and humans being in the radiation belts. There just isn't a big problem with humans traversing the belts for a short period of time, through the less dense zones. Satellites that operate within the belts require sensitive components to be radiation hardened. The ISS travels through part of the belts (the South Atlantic Anomaly), spending a total time of about 90 minutes every day in the SAA. You can argue that levels of radiation in the SAA aren't sufficient to give a significant dose to astronauts housed in the ISS - and you'd be right. Now the burden of proof lies with you to prove that the level of exposure the Apollo astronauts would have received while in the CM would have been far too high to allow for a one hour journey through them.

So let's get down to the nitty gritty - please provide the empirical evidence you have used to determine that it is impossible for astronauts to travel through the belts, as claimed by the Apollo missions. If you can't do this then my assessment must have been right - you believe it because you need an Apollo showstopper, even though you have no facts to back it up.

Awful things, facts. Always getting in the way of a good story!

[Gavin Stone]

Given Jarrah's recent video that spent five minutes talking about how the Feather and Hammer hit the ground faster than John Young, and how this is an example of a hoax, it just goes to show how much of a "the sky is falling" person. That said, even he couldn't worm around the blatant ignorance of gravitational acceleration and he removed his entire video. I wonder what he has to say about it...

PS: Everything Evan says about you is true Duane.

[Duane Daman]

Your repetition of my post just demonstrates my opinion about you.

Your opinion of me couldn't possibly be any worse than my opinion of you ...It's so obvious that every nasty comment you and your pals post on the Apollo Hoax forum is for the benefit of those you ridicule ... How utterly pathetic .

PS: Everything Evan says about you is true Duane.

You wouldn't know the truth about me or anything else for that matter, if jumped up and slapped you in the face .... A statement like that coming from the king of insults and dishonest mind games is pretty ludicrous .

Edited February 2, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Duane Daman]

So let's get down to the nitty gritty - please provide the empirical evidence you have used to determine that it is impossible for astronauts to travel through the belts, as claimed by the Apollo missions. If you can't do this then my assessment must have been right - you believe it because you need an Apollo showstopper, even though you have no facts to back it up.

Deadly Radiation At and Past the Van Allen Shields .... Otherwise known as the Apollo showstopper .

http://www.ocii.com/~dpwozney/apollo5.htm

Edited February 1, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Evan Burton]

I'm sorry, but if you expect me to take David Wozney seriously, then you are sorely mistaken.

http://www.clavius.org/envsun.html

[Duane Daman]

I'm sorry, but if you expect me to take clavius seriously, then you are sorely mistaken .

Windley's job as the founder of clavius ( the biggest NASA disinformation site on the internet ) is to attempt to discredit any evidence which goes against the reality of Apollo .

Edited February 2, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Dave Greer]

So let's get down to the nitty gritty - please provide the empirical evidence you have used to determine that it is impossible for astronauts to travel through the belts, as claimed by the Apollo missions. If you can't do this then my assessment must have been right - you believe it because you need an Apollo showstopper, even though you have no facts to back it up.

Deadly Radiation At and Past the Van Allen Shields .... Otherwise known as the Apollo showstopper .

http://www.ocii.com/~dpwozney/apollo5.htm

This is all the evidence you have to show that it's impossible to survive a trip through the Van Allen belts?

Most of that page is devoted to interplanetary radiation due to solar events, not the Van Allen belt itself. The only thing the author says about the effect the bels would have on an astronaut is:-

"it is also a threat to the astronauts".

That's it. "It is also a threat to the astronauts". Smoking cigarettes is a threat to people's health, but people still do it, and they don't all immediately drop down dead.

So where is the empirical evidence about the Van Allen belts? To say "It is a threat to the astronauts" is meaningless because it's not quantified. Nobody doubts that the Van Allen belts are a potential hazard to be overcome, but a potential hazard is a long way from an impenetrable barrier.

So I'll ask again, can you provide any empirical evidence that proves that the Van Allen belts are impossible for astronauts to safely traverse in an Apollo Command Module, using the same orbital inclination as the Apollo flights used in order to bypass the most dangerous zones? That's empirical evidence, not a general statement such as "it's a threat to astronauts".

[Evan Burton]

I'm sorry, but if you expect me to take clavius seriously, then you are sorely mistaken .

Windley's job as the founder of clavius ( the biggest NASA disinformation site on the internet ) is to attempt to discredit any evidence which goes against the reality of Apollo .

Then you should have no trouble DISPROVING what he says.

[Duane Daman]

So I'll ask again, can you provide any empirical evidence that proves that the Van Allen belts are impossible for astronauts to safely traverse in an Apollo Command Module, using the same orbital inclination as the Apollo flights used in order to bypass the most dangerous zones? That's empirical evidence, not a general statement such as "it's a threat to astronauts".

Well, since you refuse to believe that anything Wozney has presented has any value becasue of Windley's pretense of a rebuttal on clavius, then maybe this article will show you that it's not only the dangers of the Van Allen belts which present a danger to humans in deep space, but also the Moon itself .

The Moon is entirely radioactive ... and to believe that the Apollo astronauts were properly protected against this deadly cosmic radiation while traveling to and then allegedly landing on the the Moon, is being naive' as to how dangerous the Moon really is, especially with the flimsy, improper shielding used during the Apollo missions .

"The gamma rays from the Moon do not come from reflected gamma rays of the Sun. Instead, high energy particles (mostly protons) that are travelling very close to the speed of light, called cosmic-rays, continuously slam into the Moon. When these particles collide with the lunar surface, they react with the particles in the Moon's surface, exciting them and generating gamma rays. This process is similar to what goes on in particle accelerators on Earth.

The Moon is brigher in gamma rays than the quiet Sun! In fact, the most sensitive gamma-ray detector flown to date, EGRET aboard the CGRO satellite, was not able to detect the quiet Sun. (The Sun goes into periods of extreme activity, during which it is called an active Sun; the Sun is said to be quiet when it is not experiencing such activity.)"

More here .

http://www.airynothing.com/high_energy_tut...urces/moon.html

"How dangerous is the radiation in space?

Prior to the 1950's nobody knew what outer space was. In the 1950's and 1960's NASA launched probes to investigate space. NASA discovered that the sunshine in outer space is full of X-rays, protons, and other atomic particles.

The earth's magnetic field and atmosphere shield us from the X-rays and atomic particles. A lot of ultraviolet light is also blocked by the atmosphere, especially the high frequency ultraviolet light.

NASA also discovered gamma radiation in space. However, not much of it was coming from our sun. Instead, the gamma rays were coming from every direction of the universe.

More surprising, NASA discovered that more gamma rays are coming from the moon than the sun. The reason the moon emits gamma rays is that the moon is bombarded by atomic particles that are coming from outside our solar system, and that bombardment causes the surface of the moon to radiate gamma rays.

You can see this effect in particle accelerators, nuclear reactors, and X-ray machines. In an X-ray machine, a metal target is bombarded by high speed electrons. The atoms of the metal react by emitting X-rays. The faster the electrons are traveling when they hit the target, the more powerful the X-rays.

The surface of the moon is bombarded by atomic particles that come from outer space. However, the particles that hit the moon are traveling at a much higher speed than the electrons in an X-ray machine. The result is that the moon emits powerful gamma rays, not weak X-rays. The moon is a spherical target in a "cosmic gamma ray machine".

If gamma rays appeared purple to our eyes, and if we could travel beyond our atmosphere, we would find that the moon is glowing purple, and that it is much more purple than the sun.

Outer space is a horrible environment, similar to the inside of a nuclear reactor, although the radiation in space is not as concentrated as in nuclear reactor.

How did NASA protect the astronauts from all the x-rays, gamma rays, and atomic particles? NASA claims the radiation is insignficant, so not much protection is needed. "

If an astronaut were to travel to the moon, he would first have to pass through the Van Allen radiation belts. This is an area of high concentration of protons and electrons.

If an astronaut travels beyond the radiation belts, he will be exposed to gamma rays, x-rays, atomic particles, and meteors from every direction."

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Conspiracies11.htm