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Under the 'magic - limbed - ricochet - tree'


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Good Day.... For your valued considerations....

206cropJFK2pursedLIPScircledWITHmap.gif

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

Discovery: ROSEMARY WILLIS Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap : Westward, Ultrafast, & Directly Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, & Important information & considerations

President KENNEDY "Men of Courage: 4 Principles" speech, and a portion of fellow researchers articles and my research & discoveries, 1975 to present

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

National Terror Alert for the United States:

advisory7regional.gif

Dr. DONALD THOMAS during his NID-2001 presentation, "Hear No Evil"

http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/hearnoevil.htm

The x-ray of the President's head taken at the autopsy revealed a metal fragment on the outside of the cranium located 10 cm dorsad of the occipital protuberance. The scalp wound in apposition to this piece of metal was described in the autopsy facing sheet (07HSCA253) as "ragged, slanting" with an arrow indicating an upward trajectory. Dr. RUSSELL FISHER, the chairman of the forensic pathology panel appointed by Attorney General RAMSEY CLARK to review the autopsy materials concluded that the piece of metal was, "...most likely a ricochet fragment" (interview in Menninger pp. 64-66).

Edited by Don Roberdeau
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  • 2 weeks later...

Good Day.... CHARLES F. BREHM, the combat gunfire experienced, United States

Army Ranger, World War II, D-day veteran, & very close Dealey Plaza attack witness

probably summed it up one of the best when BREHM stated to the Associated Press on 11-22-63....

"He was waving, then the FIRST shot hit him and that awful look crossed his face."

(my EMPHASIS)

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

Discovery: ROSEMARY WILLIS Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap : Westward, Ultrafast, & Directly Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, & Important information & considerations

President KENNEDY "Men of Courage: 4 Principles" speech, and a portion of fellow researchers articles and my research & discoveries, 1975 to present

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

National Terror Alert for the United States:

advisory7regional.gif

On 11-22-63, on the 1,036th day of his administration, at the Fort Worth

breakfast, President KENNEDY spoke again of peace. His last publicly

delivered words were: ". . . to that great cause, Texas and the United

States are committed."

"Committed" was his last public word in a speech.

The 1,037th day never came.

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Absolutely, Don. I think we're inching towards a consensus that Kennedy was hit before frame 224, the moment of impact according to the currently popular LN theory.

I examine the photographic aspect of this issue in detail in chapter 12 at patspeer.com, and the eyewitness aspect in chapters 5 through 9. It's clear to me from this that JFK was hit by the first shot around 190 and started reacting around 193.

Edited by Pat Speer
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  • 2 weeks later...

Good Day Pat.... Thank You. Your post and work, and many conversations with several additional key researchers

were the impetus that got me looking hard at Z-206, and thinking again about the tracking of target KENNEDY.

Along with what was decided to be included within the warrenatti canard, there is a YouTube vid of stitched-together Dec

1963 re-creation photos avilable here....

....and the same 1963 re-creations in scoped view, here....

....and a YouTube showing the May 1964 re-creations (from Mr. Z's pedestal), here....

I brightened up the Z-207 scope view, (re-created in May 1964, after SPHINCTER realized the MLRT and JAMES TAGUE

combo posed serious, LN-threatening, problemo's), and outlined key considerations.

Given the SL-to-"JFK" angle at that Z-207 recreation, given the limo was moving at the 11.81 MPH that JFK averaged

between Z-197 and Z-207, and given the green-outlined pertinent edge of the MLRT foliage, my calculations show the re-created

"JFK" stand-in would have emerged from under the tree branches foliage edge, and into the targetable, full head, view of *anyone*

in the SL at approximately Z-199.

199andEARLIERtargetability_207scopeWCmay1964recreation.jpg

Can someone, please, check and see what you obtain?

Another interesting consideration is, in that May '64 scoped Z-207 photo, we can see, fairly clearly, the outline of the light-colored

rear bumper of the re-creation car at about an equal distance of the 199 to 207 clear view line.

This may/probably indicates for us that President KENNEDY, while not un-obstructively visible, WAS visible enough, and

therefore targetable, as early as 191, or before.

IMHO, SL sourced target tracking was semi-locked on and leading with the president during his entire 2 seconds he was

underneath the MLRT, and, importantly, because the SL window was only approximately half open, the SL shooter had to be

standing to track steeply downward through the thin window open space afforded him, starting before the Z-166 east tree

edge. (imho, there is "no way" that *anyone* in the SL was leaning outside that window plane, 166 to 199)

What are your thoughts on SL aquisition, tracking, etc. ?

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

Discovery: ROSEMARY WILLIS Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap : Westward, Ultrafast, & Directly Towards the "Grassy Knoll"

Dealey Plaza Professionally-surveyed Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims locations, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspected trajectories, Evidentiary artifacts, & Important information & considerations

President KENNEDY "Men of Courage: 4 Principles" speech, and a portion of fellow researchers articles and my research & discoveries, 1975 to present

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

National Terror Alert for the United States:

advisory7regional.gif

On 11-22-63, on the 1,036th day of his administration, at the Fort Worth

breakfast, President KENNEDY spoke again of peace. His last publicly

delivered words were: ". . . to that great cause, Texas and the United

States are committed."

"Committed" was his last public word in a speech.

The 1,037th day never came.

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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...126&t=13117

Fine, but!

Is the above actually a Z207 correct placement during the WC re-enactment?

Or, is the Z210 (exact same photo in exact same position) actually the Z207, or the Z210 actual location of JFK during either of these positions?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0052a.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr3.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - On Commission Exhibit No. 892, also marked frame No. 207, the car was moved forward under the tree to the point where the spot on the Presidential stand-in's back just became visible beyond the foliage of the tree. I had the car stopped at that point so that this photograph could be made there.

On Commission Exhibit No. 893, also marked frame 210, we have the photograph made at the adjusted position to accommodate the 10-inch difference in height between the stand-in and the actual position of the wound above the street and on the President's body.

Mr. FRAZIER - I testified that it would have been in position from anywhere from frames 207 to 225.

However, I cannot limit it to 207 because at that point the car goes back under the foliage and you can't actually see clearly enough.

On Commission Exhibit No. 893, also marked frame 210, we have the photograph made at the adjusted position to accommodate the 10-inch difference in height between the stand-in and the actual position of the wound above the street and on the President's body.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SPECTER. Was that position ascertained where the chalk spot on the back of President Kennedy's coat was first visible from the sixth floor window through the telescopic sight?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. This is after passing the tree.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. After passing out from under the oak tree.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What frame did that turn out to be?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That was frame 207.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an exhibit depicting the same photographic sequence on frame 207?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. What Commission Exhibit number has been affixed to that frame?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Commission Exhibit No. 892.

Mr. SPECTER. Was an adjustment made on that position for the heights of the automobiles?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the adjusted frame for the first view that the marksman had of the President's stand-in coming out from under the tree?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is frame 210 and has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 893 and represents the 10-inch adjustment for the difference in the height of the car as compared with frame 207.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was frame 249 selected as a situs for calculations on the possible construction that President Kennedy was struck in the back at the first point unadjusted at which he emerged from the tree, to wit: frame 207,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr3.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; Commission No. 889 represented by frame 166 is the adjusted position to account for the fact that the Presidential stand-in on May 24 was actually 10 inches higher in the air above the street than the President would have been in the Presidential limousine.

Mr. DULLES - Would you explain to us simply how you made those adjustments?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES - I mean how did you get him down 10 inches as a practical matter.

Mr. FRAZIER - They had marked on the back of the President's coat the location of the wound, according to the distance from the top of his head down to the hole in his back as shown in the autopsy figures. They then held a ruler, a tape measure up against that, both the back of the Presidential stand-in- and the back of the Governor's stand-in, and looking through the scope you could estimate the 10-inch distance down on the automobile.

You could not actually see it on the President's back. But could locate that 10-inch distance as a point which we marked with tape on the automobile itself, both for the Presidential and the Governor's stand-in.

Let me repeat that!

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; this Exhibit No. 888 is frame 161, and is the position at which I had the car stopped just before the spot, indicating the entrance wound on the back of the President's stand-in, passed into the foliage of the tree.

Mr. SPECTER - I now hand you Exhibits Nos. 889, 890, and 891, and ask you if you had the view on each of those depicted in the "photograph through rifle scope"?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; Commission No. 889 represented by frame 166 is the adjusted position to account for the fact that the Presidential stand-in on May 24 was actually 10 inches higher in the air above the street than the President would have been in the Presidential limousine.

Now!

In the WC reenactment, Z161 is adjusted to actually be Z166.

Z207 is adjusted to be 210, and we utilize the exact same "Through Rifle Scope" photo for each.

And then in fact, Z210 was not even surveyed in, in fact, what was surveyed in was (what Mr. West was told) actually Z207 and Z208, with alteration to the WC Survey Data for the Z210. (changing Z208 to Z210 on the survey data block).

And lastly,

You could not actually see it on the President's back. But could locate that 10-inch distance as a point which we marked with tape on the automobile itself, both for the Presidential and the Governor's stand-in.

================================================================================

Did I merely miss that, or was there some photo which demonstrat4ed a sighting arrangement at some piece of tape on the back trunk of the re-enactment automobile.

================================================================================

One certainly has to laugh when they observe someone attempting to discredit the WC and thereafter utilizing WC evidence of the assassination re-enactment (which is in fact worthless itself) to attempt to prove the WC incorrect as well as buttress their own misconcieved understandings of exactly what the WC re-enactment was actually all about.

To attempt to quote the WC in regards to survey frame positions of the Z-film as relates to whichever version of the multitudes of photo's which they took, is a complete waste of time.

So! For those who are new to the game, let me once again demonstrate exactly what part the "adjusted position" played in the continuation of confusion of those who have yet to come to understand exactly what game was being played.

Personally, I would be somewhat embarassed to reference myself as being some form of "researcher" and having let the WC pull this over on me.

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Don,

Yes you were correct....the Key points went right over his widdle head.

Someone ego is only surpassed by their lack of ballistics knowledge...

Keep up the good work.

The only combat this schmuck ever saw was on the TV.

Mike

Edited by Mike Williams
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Don,

Yes you were correct....the Key points went right over his widdle head.

Someone ego is only surpassed by their lack of ballistics knowledge...

Keep up the good work.

The only combat this schmuck ever saw was on the TV.

Mike

Such "learned" information from one who informs readers that Carcano has "progressive gain" rifling!

When in fact, only the old Carcano Long Rifles were made in this manner, while neither the true TS Carbine nor the Model 91/38 ever had other than standard rate of twist rifling.

http://www.gunsstores.com/Auction/ViewItem...?Item=104304826

The M91 fucile features a barrel that has the “progressive” twist that was a unique characteristic of the Italian rifle design thought necessary due to the long 6.5 bullet that they considered would become over-stabilized at a consistent twist rate. This feature was abandoned later as overly complicated and too costly to produce.

=====================================================

P.S. Since our "semi-resident" expert is highly unlikely to inform us of anything of any substance, the reason that many of the extremely "old" Model 91 Carcano rifles are subject to "blow up" back in the bolt area is due to the increased head pressure exerted onto the bolt by the progressive rate twist of the rifling, which requires a greater pressure buildup against the bullet as well as back against the bolt.

The "old" Carcano bullets were produced with either ballisite or solenite propellant. (powder).

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...mo/history.html

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/powder.cfm

In 1887, Sweden’s Alfred Nobel invented a smokeless powder comprised of nitrocellulose collided with nitroglycerin. Oddly enough, when these two violent explosives were combined, they formed a well controlled propellant. Nobel named this new powder “Ballisite.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x52mm_Mannlicher-Carcano

until the Reale Polverificio del Liri (Royal Explosives Factory of Liri) developed a new propellant called "Solenite", composed of trinitrocellulose (40%), dinitrocellulose (21%), nitroglycerine (36%), mineral oil (3%), and shaped in large tube-like grains. The new propellant, that reduced the flame temperature (2600 °C) and proved to be very stable, was adopted in 1896 and never changed until the end of the military production of the cartridge.

======================================

Both propellants being highly corrosive, and when combined with the higher head pressure created by the Progressive Twist rifling of the (long) rifle, added to the wear on the rifle barrel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x52mm_Mannlicher-Carcano

The original 6.5x52mm Carcano barrel design, developed by the Brescia Arsenal at the same time of the cartridge, and first than the M91 Carcano Rifle, used a gain twist barrel with deep rifling to reduce wear, extend barrel life and give consistent accuracy.[citation needed] Gain twist has a slow initial twist in the barrel progressively getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle, resulting in less torque being imparted to the bullet during the highest stress phase of the interior ballistic cycle, and thus less barrel wear in the throat of the barrel.

Primarily, this wear was within the last few inches of the rifle barrel where the increase in "gain"/twist occurred.

Since this ultimately made the rifle quite inaccurate, the program was developed in which the forward 4+ inches of the old "progressive twist" rifles was cut from the barrel and the weapon thereafter became the Model 91/24 Carbine.

So! In event one gets their hands on one of the true/original early day rifles which has the progressive twist rifling, they may want to think twice prior to firing new ammunition in the weapon as the increased chamber pressure of the newer propellants

can easily cause problems of structural failure of the weapon if the weapon is not properly headspaced.

And, in some cases can create problems even if so.

Stick around and keep paying attention, and you just may learn a thing or two with which you can go back and highly impress the "uneducated forum" grouping!

Can not speak for others, but I still have yet to see that much in the way of "new" information from your postings.

The only combat this schmuck ever saw was on the TV.

Since the postings here are limited, one could "assume" to home this refers.

Which also brings up a good "war story"!

At one point of my SE Asia (all expenses paid) vacation, I received a letter from my mother which basically complained that I was not telling her any facts and truths in my letters home, as she could see from watching TV that we were all engaged in combat every single day.

She further asked "wouldn't they allow me to write home what was really happening over there"?

I therefore sat down and wrote a letter in which I explained the basics of the worst ambush which I had ever seen in which multiple americans were killed.

By "Germans"!

(My mother was to naive to recognize that we were not fighting the Germans, (that was my Dad's job in WWII).

Finally, at the end of the long letter explaining the "ambush", I explained to here that I had seen this while watching AFVN TV tapes of the old show "Combat", while sitting inside the "inner compound" at the Ha Tay Special Forces Compound.

Cpt. Houng, the LLDB Commander, who was actually from North Vietnam and educated there, thoroughly enjoyed such American Made movies, even if pure BS.

During that particular episode of "Combat", someone (an American soldier) with a Thompson 45 machine gun opened up on the enemy (German Ambushers) and was shooting them down at ranges of several hundred yards, one right after the other.

Cpt. Houng looked at us and laughed and stated that obviously the producers of this program did not know the maximum effective range of the Thompson

===========================

http://www.wlaf.lib.in.us/oldnews.php

to his life as a commander of a Special Forces A team based at Ha Tay, a small outpost manned by Vietnamese Special Forces soldiers and locally recruited paramilitary units.

Hey Dan! I have those photo's of the LLDB First Sergeant's daughters in their "Tiger" suits, as well as a bunch of photo's of the Mike Force just prior to the push on Tiger Mountain.

Want me to send them to the Law Firm Address?

===================================

Back to Subject Matter:

Yes you were correct....the Key points went right over his widdle head.

Well now!

Considering that the "Key points" being:

1. The WC made multiple, multiple, mustiple re-enactment runs with the Queen Mary followup vehicle, filming each and every run from the Zapruder as well as sixth floor window position.

2. In some cases, the actual "movement" which they wanted was so minimal, that they actually had members of the WC re-enactment "push" the vehicle merely a few inches prior to photographing, as the driver could not achieve such small increments of movement.

3. Due to lack of actual movement of the car, it in fact overheated on more than one occassion.

4. In order to "force" a JFK/JBC alignment from the sixth floor window, they actually let most of the air out of the front tires and overinflated the rear tires in order to give the vehicle a "jacked up" position in the back in which the alignment through the JFK Stand-in could come close to an alignment through the JBC stand-in.

5. The WC slightly "fudged" their data with the usage of the "Adjusted position".

6. The WC, still could not achieve what they wanted, therefore, the resorted to alteration of their own Survey Data gathered during the re-enactment.

7. The WC was in total control of ALL of the multitudes of "re-enactment" photo's, and therefore could pick any photo that they so desired and pass it off as "Photograph through rifle scope" as they did with Z207 and the purported Z210.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0051b.htm

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0052a.htm

Which by the way happens to be the exact same photograph!

(it is assumed that you and/or BM were going to eventually get around to letting everyone know this as well).

Along with the fact that no survey work was actually done for any "Z210" position.

==============================================

And yet, persons who call themselves "researchers" not only have apparantly fell for and believed "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" as presented by the WC, but have also accepted the WC assassination re-enactment photo's as if they were some form of bonafide evidence.

OXYMORON--Lack of oxygen to a Moron!

Neither you, I, nor anyone else (with the possible exception of Arlen Specter), know exactly what photograph they/the WC ultimate utilized in attempt to "sell" the WC COS (Crock of Sh**) re-enactment to us.

And to thereafter attempt to utilize their photographs to buttress a completely unsupportable hypothesis that JFK was hit and reacting to being hit prior to any Z206/207 position,( as we know it) is idiotic.

Or, have you completely continued to fail to notice that Z207 and Z210 "Photograph through Rifle Scope" are the same exact photographs?

Guess that we may as well have stuck in Z208 and Z209, and then we would have our absolute proof that the Presidential Limo must have come to a complete stop, since according to this little "boo-boo", it did not move in relationship to the tree limbs from 207 to 210.

Then too, with all of this "learning" which some seem to be of the opinion that they have gained,

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0050b.htm

The above photo would further serve to indicate that they know virtually nothing.

As Mr. Robert West personally relayed to me at his home, "no one could have accurately fired that rifle the way that they had it jacked up".

So, might I advise that one actually check out the height, position, and location of the "bench rest"/stacked boxes which were quite apparantly utilized as the firing position, and thereafter do some "comparative shopping" with the Shaneyfelt photo to see if just perhaps the re-enactment rifle is not only NOT at the correct elevation, but is also NOT in the correct lateral position as relates to the window.

Certainly hope that you can at least shoot!

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"Nobody could have accurately fired that rifle from the way that they had it jacked up" (words to that effect)

Mr. Robert West to Tom Purvis, at the home of Mr. West in Dallas, TX.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0050b.htm

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol21_0335b.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr3.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Did you handle the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle during the course of the onsite tests?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - The rifle previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 139?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER - At what position--what was the basis for your positioning of that rifle during those tests?

Mr. FRAZIER - To position the rifle, we selected boxes of the same size and contour as boxes shown in a photograph or rather in two photographs, reportedly taken by the police department at Dallas shortly after the assassination.

We placed these boxes in their relative position in front of the window spacing them from left to right, according to the photographs which were furnished to us, and also placing them up against the window, with one of them resting on the window ledge as it was shown in the photographs.

It would appear that something got lost within the "musical chair" game that was being played, when Frazier moved to the Zapruder position and Shaneyfelt moved to the TSDB window.

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