Top US scientist commits suicide?

[William Kelly]

After Congressional Breifing fails to convince Congressman and scientists, FBI to present the real evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/washingt...tml?ref=science

So what happened to the FBI's evidence and case?

This post was hijacked by those who want to debate about Truthers, while I would like to determine who was responsible for the Anthrax attacks.

What about the handwriting on the envelops, why isn't that being used as evidence?

And who desposited the letters in the Princeton mailbox?

Do the suspect's gas credit cards indicate their whereabouts, as that's how they got Bundy?

And doesn't anyone else find it peculiar that the Anthrax suspects were narrowed down to the same small Ft. Detrick, Md. bio warfare lab where Col. Jose Rivera worked?

BK

Sorry for hijacking the thread Bill.

The handwriting question is a good one but my understanding is that it is hard to positively ID block letter writing. As for the mailbox and credit cards Princeton is probably only 2 - 3 hours from Ft. Detrick so Ivins or someone else could have gone there and back without refilling their tank and have left few traces that would have lasted 7 years.

There's more to the handwriting than just block letters. There's the envelops, where they came from, the ink, and what kind it is and other leads that can be followed.

DC and Detrick are more like four or five hours from Princeton, and gas credit cards are a good way to track such movements, as they did with Bundy. Since you quote Bundy in every post, you might be interested in the case of the Jersey Parkway Murders, which I have attributed to Bundy, but the cops don't. Bundy was convicted for some Colorado murders based entirely on the circumstancial evidence that he was in the vaciity as proven by his gas credit card records.

http://athepoint.blogspot.com/2008/02/park...-revisited.html

And I'm not interested in an internet debate between the Neocons vs Truthers on any issue.

BK

Edited August 29, 2008 by William Kelly

[Len Colby]

After Congressional Breifing fails to convince Congressman and scientists, FBI to present the real evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/washingt...tml?ref=science

So what happened to the FBI's evidence and case?

This post was hijacked by those who want to debate about Truthers, while I would like to determine who was responsible for the Anthrax attacks.

What about the handwriting on the envelops, why isn't that being used as evidence?

And who desposited the letters in the Princeton mailbox?

Do the suspect's gas credit cards indicate their whereabouts, as that's how they got Bundy?

And doesn't anyone else find it peculiar that the Anthrax suspects were narrowed down to the same small Ft. Detrick, Md. bio warfare lab where Col. Jose Rivera worked?

BK

Sorry for hijacking the thread Bill.

The handwriting question is a good one but my understanding is that it is hard to positively ID block letter writing. As for the mailbox and credit cards Princeton is probably only 2 - 3 hours from Ft. Detrick so Ivins or someone else could have gone there and back without refilling their tank and have left few traces that would have lasted 7 years.

There's more to the handwriting than just block letters. There's the envelops, where they came from, the ink, and what kind it is and other leads that can be followed.

I doubt it envelopes and pen are generally mass produced items that would be hard in not impossible to connect to a suspect shortly afterward let alone 7 years later

DC and Detrick are more like four or five hours from Princeton,

According to Google Maps the round trip from Military Rd. Frederick MD (Where Ivins lived) to 10 Nassau Street, Princeton NJ (where the mailbox was) is 396 miles easily in doable on a single tank of gas and would take 6 hours 45 minutes. But that time presumably is based on the assumption of a driver going speed limit. Only about 4.8 miles are on local roads and 22.2 are on US highways the remaining 369 miles is on interstates. Assuming he averaged 30, 60 and 90 mph respectively on each type of road he could have done it in about 4 ½ hours,so my 2 -3 hours (each way) guesstimate was on target.

and gas credit cards are a good way to track such movements, as they did with Bundy.

Only if he filled his tank, which he wouldn’t have needed to.

Since you quote Bundy in every post, you might be interested in the case of the Jersey Parkway Murders, which I have attributed to Bundy, but the cops don't. Bundy was convicted for some Colorado murders based entirely on the circumstancial evidence that he was in the vaciity as proven by his gas credit card records.

http://athepoint.blogspot.com/2008/02/park...-revisited.html

Your account is interesting but I agree with the cops.

- He said he didn’t kill his 1st victim till 1972

-The only time he is known to or even suspected of attacking more than one victim at a time was shortly before his final arrest in Florida in 1978 and in that case his victims were sleeping and he hadn‘t killed in 2 ½ years. Serial killers become more daring (for lack of a better word) as time goes by, it males little sense that he would have killed 2 girls at once thousands of miles from home in unfamiliar territory and then years later would kill one at a time close to where he lived and never attack 2 conscious victims at once again.

Also he wasn’t convicted in Colorado, he escaped while awaiting trial. However there was forensic evidence matching him to his victims and vice-versa and he’d been convicted of kidnapping in Utah. The woman who got away IDed him in line up as did 2 witnesses in the parking lot where he snatched a girl he killed.

EDIT - I'd said he did study at Temple I was wrong,he did.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Len Colby

[William Kelly]

After Congressional Breifing fails to convince Congressman and scientists, FBI to present the real evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/washingt...tml?ref=science

So what happened to the FBI's evidence and case?

This post was hijacked by those who want to debate about Truthers, while I would like to determine who was responsible for the Anthrax attacks.

What about the handwriting on the envelops, why isn't that being used as evidence?

And who desposited the letters in the Princeton mailbox?

Do the suspect's gas credit cards indicate their whereabouts, as that's how they got Bundy?

And doesn't anyone else find it peculiar that the Anthrax suspects were narrowed down to the same small Ft. Detrick, Md. bio warfare lab where Col. Jose Rivera worked?

BK

Sorry for hijacking the thread Bill.

The handwriting question is a good one but my understanding is that it is hard to positively ID block letter writing. As for the mailbox and credit cards Princeton is probably only 2 - 3 hours from Ft. Detrick so Ivins or someone else could have gone there and back without refilling their tank and have left few traces that would have lasted 7 years.

There's more to the handwriting than just block letters. There's the envelops, where they came from, the ink, and what kind it is and other leads that can be followed.

I doubt it envelopes and pen are generally mass produced items that would be hard in not impossible to connect to a suspect shortly afterward let alone 7 years later

DC and Detrick are more like four or five hours from Princeton,

According to Google Maps the round trip from Military Rd. Frederick MD (Where Ivins lived) to 10 Nassau Street, Princeton NJ (where the mailbox was) is 396 miles easily in doable on a single tank of gas and would take 6 hours 45 minutes. But that time presumably is based on the assumption of a driver going speed limit. Only about 4.8 miles are on local roads and 22.2 are on US highways the remaining 369 miles is on interstates. Assuming he averaged 30, 60 and 90 mph respectively on each type of road he could have done it in about 4 ½ hours,so my 2 -3 hours (each way) guesstimate was on target.

and gas credit cards are a good way to track such movements, as they did with Bundy.

Only if he filled his tank, which he wouldn't have needed to.

Since you quote Bundy in every post, you might be interested in the case of the Jersey Parkway Murders, which I have attributed to Bundy, but the cops don't. Bundy was convicted for some Colorado murders based entirely on the circumstancial evidence that he was in the vaciity as proven by his gas credit card records.

http://athepoint.blogspot.com/2008/02/park...-revisited.html

Your account is interesting but I agree with the cops.

- He said he didn't kill his 1st victim till 1972

-The only time he is known to or even suspected of attacking more than one victim at a time was shortly before his final arrest in Florida in 1978 and in that case his victims were sleeping and he hadn't killed in 2 ½ years. Serial killers become more daring (for lack of a better word) as time goes by, it males little sense that he would have killed 2 girls at once thousands of miles from home in unfamiliar territory and then years later would kill one at a time close to where he lived and never attack 2 conscious victims at once again.

Also he wasn't convicted in Colorado, he escaped while awaiting trial. However there was forensic evidence matching him to his victims and vice-versa and he'd been convicted of kidnapping in Utah. The woman who got away IDed him in line up as did 2 witnesses in the parking lot where he snatched a girl he killed.

EDIT - I'd said he did study at Temple I was wrong,he did.

So according to Colby, there's no reason to investigate any lead at all.

BK

[Len Colby]

So according to Colby, there's no reason to investigate any lead at all.

Really Bill I thought making strawmen arguments was beneath you. Obviously I`m not saying that “there's no reason to investigate any lead at all” but rather that some of what you think could be leads probably aren’t.

1) If the round trip would take less than a tank of gas there is no reason to expect someone to have filled up on the way. Even if he did he could have paid cash.

2) IDing the pen and envelope used are unlikely to be of value because they are essentially untraceable. Best case scenario I can imagine would be if they IDed a suspect searched his (or her) house and office etc and found a pen with ink they could determine was from the same batch as the one used to write the letters and envelopes made from the same batch of paper as the ones used to send them OR if used them for other letters or writing samples. I’m not even sure the technology to make such ID’s exists. Even if it did this would depend on the perpetrator not having the foresight to have safely disposed of the pen and any remaining envelopes from the same box as soon as he was done or being dumb enough to use them to send other letters. Even a person who wasn’t trying to cover up a crime is unlikely to still have a disposable pen and some envelopes 7 years later.

On the other hand the more I think about it the more I think you might be right about Bundy. This was right about the time he discovered that the woman he thought was his older sister was really his mom, that his father had abandoned him and that the people he thought were his parents were really his grandparents. This was also shortly after his first love rejected him. I imagine such a double shock could have triggered him to kill. If you are interested enough you should contact Ann Rule and/or Dr. Robert Keppel serialkiller experts who knew Bundy and wrote books about him.

Len

[William Kelly]

So according to Colby, there's no reason to investigate any lead at all.

Really Bill I thought making strawmen arguments was beneath you. Obviously I`m not saying that "there's no reason to investigate any lead at all" but rather that some of what you think could be leads probably aren't.

1) If the round trip would take less than a tank of gas there is no reason to expect someone to have filled up on the way. Even if he did he could have paid cash.

2) IDing the pen and envelope used are unlikely to be of value because they are essentially untraceable. Best case scenario I can imagine would be if they IDed a suspect searched his (or her) house and office etc and found a pen with ink they could determine was from the same batch as the one used to write the letters and envelopes made from the same batch of paper as the ones used to send them OR if used them for other letters or writing samples. I'm not even sure the technology to make such ID's exists. Even if it did this would depend on the perpetrator not having the foresight to have safely disposed of the pen and any remaining envelopes from the same box as soon as he was done or being dumb enough to use them to send other letters. Even a person who wasn't trying to cover up a crime is unlikely to still have a disposable pen and some envelopes 7 years later.

On the other hand the more I think about it the more I think you might be right about Bundy. This was right about the time he discovered that the woman he thought was his older sister was really his mom, that his father had abandoned him and that the people he thought were his parents were really his grandparents. This was also shortly after his first love rejected him. I imagine such a double shock could have triggered him to kill. If you are interested enough you should contact Ann Rule and/or Dr. Robert Keppel serialkiller experts who knew Bundy and wrote books about him.

Len

Len, the more you think about it the more you will see I am right, both about Bundy and the Parkway murders, and the Anthrax terrorist(s). For awhile there I thought Bundy had convinced you as well as himself of his innocence. The cops don't want to investigate that case any further because if Bundy was responsible, their original screwups of the abandoned car and failure to solve the case led to the deaths of an additiona fifty or so young women, not an easy burdon to assume.

You are right about Bundy being convicted in Utah, rather than Colorado, based primarily on the circumstantial evidence that he denied being there when his gas credit cards indicated he was at the scene of the crimes. You would have thought that the genius Bundy would have paid cash too. And the round trip distance between Frederick, Md. and Princeton would certainly require a full tank of gas, and all the Delaware River bridges have photo id of cars as they pay their tolls, so that too would be normally checked to see if a specific car crossed state lines. But when the FBI introduced the evidence they had against their suspect, they failed to mention any of these routine investigative measures.

Medical needles washed ashore on our Jersey Shore beaches this week, and their manufacturers ID will tell us a lot about where they've been before they washed ashore, and could lead to the perpetrator(s).

Son of Sam was caught because a traffic cop gave his car a parking ticket next to a fire hydrant, which placed him at the scene of one of the crimes.

After the first truck bomb attack on the World Trade Center, quickly locating and identifying the serial number of the truck from all the twisted metal in the explosion, led to those responsible and was a key element in solving the crime.

So whether Colby thinks these seemingly insignificant items would lead nowhere, they are routinely followed by trained investigators, and when they aren't followed, as is often the case in the JFK assassination, there's a reason for that too.

The bottom line in the Anthrax attacks so far is they were carried out by someone or some individuals who were given high level security clearance at the US Army Chemical Bio warfare labs at Fort Detrick, Maryland. If their goal was to increase the budge of their division, they succeeded.

The most serious threat to our security comes not from foreign terrorists, but from within our own government.

http://whitedeercafe.blogspot.com/2008/04/...y-backyard.html

BK

[Len Colby]

Len, the more you think about it the more you will see I am right, both about Bundy and the Parkway murders, and the Anthrax terrorist(s).

More likely with the former than the latter but like I said you should contact Rule and Keppel they are exponentially more knowledgeable about serial killers in general and Bundy in particular than the two of us combined.

The cops don't want to investigate that case any further because if Bundy was responsible, their original screwups of the abandoned car and failure to solve the case led to the deaths of an additiona fifty or so young women, not an easy burdon to assume.

Which of the screw-ups if not made could reasonably been expected to have led to his arrest? Bundy’s ex-girl friend told Washington police she thought he was the “Ted” they were looking for and he was already one of 25 peole who had 5 or more the traits they were looking for, but his named remained near the bottom of the list.

You are right about Bundy being convicted in Utah, rather than Colorado, based primarily on the circumstantial evidence that he denied being there when his gas credit cards indicated he was at the scene of the crimes.

Your account is still inaccurate. He was convicted in Salt Lake City, Utah (where he lived) of kidnapping Carol DaRonch who IDed him in a line-up and in court, he was also IDed by 2 witnesses in a parking lot from which another girl disappeared that night, his car matched the description of the one given by DaRonch and one of the parking lot witnesses, when he was stopped for traffic violations in mid August he had an ice-pick, ski-mask, crowbar and handcuffs among other suspicious items in his Beetle. The cuffs were the same brand and model as he used on DaRonch.

He was not convicted in Colorado for the murder of Caryn Campbell because he escaped. The evidence against went far beyond the credit card receipts:

• Hairs “microscopically similar” to those of Campbell, DaRonch and a 3rd woman who was missing were found in his car. A forensic expect said there was only a 1/20,000 chance that the hairs belonged people other than the victims.
  
• The crowbar matched the indentations on Campbell’s skull.
  
• A brochure for the hotel Campbell was abducted from was found in his SLC apt.
  
• An eyewitness placed him in the hotel acting suspiciously close to the time of the abduction
  

Thus he was already a suspect when they looked at his credit card usage.

You would have thought that the genius Bundy would have paid cash too.

Like many serial killers Bundy often intentionally did things that could be expected to lead to his capture, this is apperently part of the "game". He didn’t change his car even after several witnesses saw him with it, he told many of the women he approached his name was ‘Ted’. But just because Bundy made such a blunder doesn’t mean Ivins or whoever carried out he attacks would have done so as well.

And the round trip distance between Frederick, Md. and Princeton would certainly require a full tank of gas,

About a tank but several cars can go well over 400 miles between refills

and all the Delaware River bridges have photo id of cars as they pay their tolls, so that too would be normally checked to see if a specific car crossed state lines.

Did they take the photos in September 2001? How long would they have kept the images on file? The most likely bridge to have been used was the Delaware Memorial Bridge. 80,000 cars cross it a day*, even if the images we only 25kb that would come out to 2GB a day, the Brokaw letter was only discovered October 12, about 26 days after it was mailed. 26 x 2GB comes out to 52 GB a lot of memory storage especially by 2001 standards and of course there are a few other bridges that could have been taken and the FBI didn’t begin to suspect someone from Fr. Detrick till much later.

* http://www.drba.net/bridge/

But when the FBI introduced the evidence they had against their suspect, they failed to mention any of these routine investigative measures.

I doubt they would mention things that didn’t pan out. I imagine they went through Ivins’ credit card records and previously had gone through Hatfeild’s but the lack of gas receipts or other charges between Fredericksburg and Princeton proves nothing. I doubt the bridge administrators would still have the toll photos by the time the FBI began to suspect that someone from Ft. Detrick was responsible.

Medical needles washed ashore on our Jersey Shore beaches this week, and their manufacturers ID will tell us a lot about where they've been before they washed ashore, and could lead to the perpetrator(s).

Son of Sam was caught because a traffic cop gave his car a parking ticket next to a fire hydrant, which placed him at the scene of one of the crimes.

After the first truck bomb attack on the World Trade Center, quickly locating and identifying the serial number of the truck from all the twisted metal in the explosion, led to those responsible and was a key element in solving the crime.

So whether Colby thinks these seemingly insignificant items would lead nowhere, they are routinely followed by trained investigators, and when they aren't followed, as is often the case in the JFK assassination, there's a reason for that too.

Items with serial numbers are a lot easier to trace than ink from a pen that presumably was mass produced by the millions or hundreds of thousands used only for the letters and then disposed of 7 years ago. The only thing you mentioned that really could be compelling is the toll photos but only if you can produce evidence they would still have them months or even years later.

The bottom line in the Anthrax attacks so far is they were carried out by someone or some individuals who were given high level security clearance at the US Army Chemical Bio warfare labs at Fort Detrick, Maryland. If their goal was to increase the budge of their division, they succeeded.

Given or already had such clearance and yes it increased their budget which probably benefited Ivins.

The most serious threat to our security comes not from foreign terrorists, but from within our own government.

According to your own source “Nuclear components were not installed in the weapons” and the one with the “nuclear capsule” was not jettisoned. Plutonium-239 was mentioned but was followed by this commentary “why CDI chose to mention this does not make sense...the nuclear material capsule contains the critical mass of enriched fuel – MILNET” http://www.milnet.com/cdiart.htm So you should correct that as well as the errors about Bundy.

Edited August 31, 2008 by Len Colby

[Terry Mauro]

Len, if you're looking for a real expert on serial killers then why don't you consult Merle Allin the brother of the late satanist GG Allin? Merle seems to have a real understanding of what makes these guys tick.

http://www.ggallin.com/serialkillers.php

[William Kelly]

Recent Story in the Philly Inky:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_scie...thrax_case.html

Ed Lake's Analysis:

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/

Early official Government Report:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5042a1.htm

FBI unveils science of anthrax investigation:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...l-fus082108.php

Frederick NewsPost reports Senate may quiz FBI on Anthrax Sept. 17

and Army has started a Task Force investigation of Fort Detrick unit:

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1461057

[Len Colby]

Thought the evidence presented to the public is far from conclusive I have yet to see any convincing evidence Ivins wasn’t the culprit.

This seems pretty damming to me:

Fraser-Liggett said she and other geneticists knew instantly that the different-looking colonies probably carried mutations they could use.

By early 2004, she and her colleagues turned up a handful of key mutations - four of which were turned into tests to screen the 1,070 samples.

Seven samples tested positive for all four mutations. Since the samples' history was recorded in lab notebooks that the FBI had collected, investigators could see that all seven had been derived from the same source - a set of two flasks labeled RMR-1029 in Ivins' lab at USAMRIID.

But the investigators got a negative result from the sample Ivins sent in, according to affidavits released Aug. 6. Since all other samples derived from RMR-1029 tested positive, Ivins' sample should have as well.

The affidavits say FBI agents raided Ivins' lab in 2004 and seized his flasks of RMR-1029. Those tested positive for all four mutations, as did an earlier sample Ivins had made from RMR-1029 that was stored in Keim's lab.

Did Ivins alter the official sample he submitted? Keim said the test was sensitive enough that it should have picked up the signature of the mutant spores had Ivins followed the FBI's directions for making the samples.

"Ivins may simply have failed to collect a representative sample," he said, adding that "the FBI is implying he did it on purpose."

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_scie...thrax_case.html

The is also the testimony of his therapist that he was homicidal and afraid of him and even the comments of his own brother (who had not spoken to him since 1985):

"It makes sense, what the social worker said," Tom Ivins said. "He considered himself like a god."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/03/a...p_n_116566.html

The only thing I’ve seen indicating he might be innocent is that several of his friends said they did think he was capable of doing such a thing but his own brother disagreed. Other sociopaths have convinced people who knew them they could do such things a few examples

- Ann Rule then a ex-policewoman and aspiring crime writer in Seattle investigating the “Ted” murders and a close friend of Bundy’s said she would not have though him capable of committing such crimes nor apparently did the governor of Washington who wrote him a letter of recommendation.

- John Wayne Gacy was a respected contractor and popular clown at local events.

- Ed Kemper murdered his grandparent but several forensic psychologists proclaimed him cured, one had close contact with him for several years, two others did so the day after he killed a girl whose head was supposedly still in the trunk of his car.

PS - Bill the Parkway victims were stabbed to death . a method not used by Bundy IIRC

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:SRsCj...t=clnk&cd=1

http://va004.newsbank.com/img-ctha/fpob/19...690603fp003.txt

[William Kelly]

Thought the evidence presented to the public is far from conclusive I have yet to see any convincing evidence Ivins wasn't the culprit.

This seems pretty damming to me:

Fraser-Liggett said she and other geneticists knew instantly that the different-looking colonies probably carried mutations they could use.

By early 2004, she and her colleagues turned up a handful of key mutations - four of which were turned into tests to screen the 1,070 samples.

Seven samples tested positive for all four mutations. Since the samples' history was recorded in lab notebooks that the FBI had collected, investigators could see that all seven had been derived from the same source - a set of two flasks labeled RMR-1029 in Ivins' lab at USAMRIID.

But the investigators got a negative result from the sample Ivins sent in, according to affidavits released Aug. 6. Since all other samples derived from RMR-1029 tested positive, Ivins' sample should have as well.

The affidavits say FBI agents raided Ivins' lab in 2004 and seized his flasks of RMR-1029. Those tested positive for all four mutations, as did an earlier sample Ivins had made from RMR-1029 that was stored in Keim's lab.

Did Ivins alter the official sample he submitted? Keim said the test was sensitive enough that it should have picked up the signature of the mutant spores had Ivins followed the FBI's directions for making the samples.

"Ivins may simply have failed to collect a representative sample," he said, adding that "the FBI is implying he did it on purpose."

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_scie...thrax_case.html

The is also the testimony of his therapist that he was homicidal and afraid of him and even the comments of his own brother (who had not spoken to him since 1985):

"It makes sense, what the social worker said," Tom Ivins said. "He considered himself like a god."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/03/a...p_n_116566.html

The only thing I've seen indicating he might be innocent is that several of his friends said they did think he was capable of doing such a thing but his own brother disagreed. Other sociopaths have convinced people who knew them they could do such things a few examples

- Ann Rule then a ex-policewoman and aspiring crime writer in Seattle investigating the "Ted" murders and a close friend of Bundy's said she would not have though him capable of committing such crimes nor apparently did the governor of Washington who wrote him a letter of recommendation.

- John Wayne Gacy was a respected contractor and popular clown at local events.

- Ed Kemper murdered his grandparent but several forensic psychologists proclaimed him cured, one had close contact with him for several years, two others did so the day after he killed a girl whose head was supposedly still in the trunk of his car.

PS - Bill the Parkway victims were stabbed to death . a method not used by Bundy IIRC

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:SRsCj...t=clnk&cd=1

http://va004.newsbank.com/img-ctha/fpob/19...690603fp003.txt

Regardless of what Colby believes, over 100 people had access to the two flasks that the attack Antrax came from, other than Ivins.

He was informed he was a suspect and apparently encouraged to commit suicide (or was murdered) before he could be arrested and properly interrogated.

And basic investigative questions, like who authored the addresses on the envelops, who transported the Anthrax from Fort Detrick to Princeton and mailed them, and why an innocent man was targeted and named before the evidence was in, still have to be answered.

And once a suspect is targeted, by the FBI like Hatfield and Ivins were, it seems that the evidence can be developed against them even if they are innocent, like Hatfield apparently is, and now richer.

As for the PS Bundy, if he was responsible for the Parkway murders, it was the first time he did it, and the MO (Knife) was also used in the next to last murder of a young girl in Flordia.

Of course it is a lot easier to try to debunk investigative leads than to develop them.

BK

[Len Colby]

Regardless of what Colby believes, over 100 people had access to the two flasks that the attack Antrax came from, other than Ivins.

Do you have a citation, the reports I’ve seen only indicated that dozen (or in some cases over a 100) people had access to the strain but "they were cultures he was personally responsible for" and only a more limited number of people “had access to the poison or the labs at the specific time it was mailed”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25991925/

There is additional evidence backing (besides the comments of Ivins own estranged brother) for the therapist’s assertion he was a sociopath.

A female biologist who met him in the late 70’s at UNC where both were post graduate students said “she was stalked for decades by Bruce Ivins.” According to AP, “Nancy L. Haigwood and her former husband, Carl J. Scandella, also think Ivins may have wanted to get close to her when he moved in down the street from the couple in the suburbs of Washington in the early 1980s.” He also seems to have become obsessed with her sorority, Kappa Kappa Gamma. Shortly after he moved to her street someone spray painted the Greek initials of the sorority on her house and husbands car. She suspected him and the letters were sent from a mailbox close to its Princeton office.

“Investigators have said that between 2000 and 2006, Ivins was prescribed antidepressants, antipsychotics and anti-anxiety drugs.”

Supposedly he broke into sorority’s house on the University of Maryland campus

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26110089/

“Years ago, he had visited Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority houses at universities in Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia, an obsession growing out of a romance with a sorority sister in his own college days at the University of Cincinnati — although someone who knew him well said the last such visit was in 1981.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/washington/05anthrax.html

He also seems to have obsessed with the sorority online repeatedly editing pages about them on Wikipedia and similar sites.

http://www.slate.com/id/2197043

The FBI released some his e-mail messages.

Richard G. Rappaport, an associate clinical psychiatry professor at the University of California, San Diego, who examined the court papers at the request of The New York Times, said Dr. Ivins appeared to exhibit psychotic characteristics. It was possible, Dr. Rappaport said, that he was faking his mental ailment, in an effort to draw attention to himself. But he said he wondered why Dr. Ivins had been allowed to continue to work for so long in a high-security biodefense laboratory.

“Everyone who does this is not crazy,” Dr. Rappaport said of Dr. Ivins’s e-mail and statements. “But it is pretty apparent he had psychological problems. “He may have been on the fringe where he was able to still function, even if he did not function well.”

Some of his comments:

“I wish I could control the thoughts in my mind. It’s hard enough sometimes controlling my behavior. When I am being eaten alive inside, I always try to put on a good front here at work and at home, so I don’t spread the pestilence. I get incredible paranoid, delusional thoughts at times, and there’s nothing I can do until they go away.”

“The thinking now by the psychiatrist and counselor is that my symptoms may not be those of a depression or bipolar disorder, they may be that of a ‘Paranoid Personality Disorder.’ ”

"...he went on what he called “mindless drives” to mail gifts and letters anonymously, the document said, and then “set back the odometer in his car” to fool his wife."

He speculated that a National Enquirer (one of his targets) headline about him might be “Paranoid man works with deadly anthrax!!!”

In December 2001 he described himself as “two people in one,”

On Oct.16 2001 ‘one of his co-workers observed in an e-mail message, “Bruce has been an absolute manic basket case the last few days.” ’

Even his lawyer described him as “a weird guy”

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5icCsDXb...xWio0wD92D48QO0

So though the evidence presented to the public is not conclusive he had serious psychological problems and was like psychopathic as well.

He was informed he was a suspect and apparently encouraged to commit suicide

Evidence for this claim?

And basic investigative questions, like who authored the addresses on the envelops, who transported the Anthrax from Fort Detrick to Princeton and mailed them,

Apparently the did look the envelopes and who wrote them but the results were far from conclusive

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/...a-grassy-knoll/

The Feds say Ivins acted alone so the obvious answer according to them would be he did all of the above. There is no reason why a single person could have not done those things and no reason it could not have been Ivins.

and why an innocent man was targeted and named before the evidence was in, still have to be answered.

It has been years since I last looked at he Hatfield case people make mistakes though, it is also quite possible or even probable that under intense pressure to solve the case they acted recklessly. It is my recollection that though he was named a “person of interest” by the FBI they never said they were preparing to indict him.

And once a suspect is targeted, by the FBI like Hatfield and Ivins were, it seems that the evidence can be developed against them even if they are innocent, like Hatfield apparently is, and now richer.

Sometimes unfortunately evidence seems to line up against innocent people, the guard at the Atlanta Olympics comes to mind. What was the supposed evidence against Hatfill? Have you seen any indications the evidence was made to fit the theory rather than the other way round?

Of course it is a lot easier to try to debunk investigative leads than to develop them.

I could just as easily say “it is a lot easier to critique an investigation than to carry one out”. What do you make of the fact that Ivins attorney, friends and family don’t seem to have mentioned your supposed” investigative leads”?

[William Kelly]

I like Ed Lake's analysis, although I don't think he's updated it with the most recent facts. He's kept up with it from the beginning, he's not personally involved as a victim or player, he's got a great archive of info, he thinks clearly and he's ready to correct facts and acknowledge when he was wrong.

Ed Lake's Analysis:

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/

My analysis is that we are more at jeopardy, not from radical, foreign terrorists, but from neglegance in the handling of our own stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction, as our experience has painfully shown.

The debate shouldn't be about the Patriot Act, but the fact that the Anthrax attacks directly led to the ten fold funding to the tune of millions of dollars to the same secret government lab(s) that we now know were the source of the Anthrax for the attacks.

If the Anthrax scientist who appropriated the Anthrax from the Ft. Detrick facility DID NOT author the words and letterings on the envelops, as seems to be the case, then there had to be an accomplace.

And once a subject became a suspect, and identified as a possibly psychotic mental case, why inform them, and allow them to committ another, possibly even more catastrophic crime? Instead of committing suicide, what if he decided to take out as many people as possible? Unless it wasn't a suicide.

The bottom line is that this issue isn't yet resolved, and the next action may be in Congress, and give us an idea of how such hearings are held.

BK

PS, my source for over 100 scientists had access to the Anthrax flasks at Fort Detrick:

Washington Post, August 18, 2008 "....The bacteria used in the attacks contained precisely the same mix of normal and mutated cells, the officials said. Of more than 1,000 samples of anthrax bacteria collected by the FBI in the years after the attacks, only eight contained the same four genetic mutants. All eight could be directly traced to the flask in Ivins's lab, the officials said...."

"While the FBI has acknowledged that more than 100 people could have had either access to Ivins's flask or samples of material from it, investigators say they eliminated all others as suspects."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8081802174.html

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/page-one.html

August 14, 2008 (A) - Today's Washington Post contains an article headlined "Hair Samples in Anthrax Case Don't Match." What would be the odds that hairs found in a mailbox used by thousands of people would belong to Ivins? It seems like the FBI took a chance on even bothering to examine the hairs. If the hairs had belonged to Ivins, it would have definitely been key evidence, but the odds were so much against it, that it hardly seems worth the "risk" to do the testing, since a vastly more likely negative result would just give people reason to believe that Ivins was not the culprit.

The Post article also contains more leaked information:

Investigators now believe that Ivins waited until evening to make the drive to Princeton on Sept. 17, 2001. He showed up at work that day and stayed briefly, then took several hours of administrative leave from the lab, according to partial work logs.

Based on information from receipts and interviews, authorities say Ivins filled up his car's gas tank, attended a meeting outside of the office in the late afternoon, and returned to the lab for a few minutes that evening before moving off the radar screen and presumably driving overnight to Princeton. The letters were postmarked Sept. 18.

Edited September 6, 2008 by William Kelly

[Kevin M. West]

According to Google Maps the round trip from Military Rd. Frederick MD (Where Ivins lived) to 10 Nassau Street, Princeton NJ (where the mailbox was) is 396 miles easily in doable on a single tank of gas and would take 6 hours 45 minutes. But that time presumably is based on the assumption of a driver going speed limit.

I've done central NJ to northern VA in 3 1/2 hours. Nobody drives the speed limit on those roads.

[William Kelly]

According to Google Maps the round trip from Military Rd. Frederick MD (Where Ivins lived) to 10 Nassau Street, Princeton NJ (where the mailbox was) is 396 miles easily in doable on a single tank of gas and would take 6 hours 45 minutes. But that time presumably is based on the assumption of a driver going speed limit.

I've done central NJ to northern VA in 3 1/2 hours. Nobody drives the speed limit on those roads.

Kevin,

I don't think the issue is how long it would take, but whether he could do it on one tank of gass, and whether or not there is any records of Ivins purchasing the amount of gas necessary to get from Md. to NJ and back.

The Post article also contains more leaked information:

Investigators now believe that Ivins waited until evening to make the drive to Princeton on Sept. 17, 2001. He showed up at work that day and stayed briefly, then took several hours of administrative leave from the lab, according to partial work logs. Based on information from receipts and interviews, authorities say Ivins filled up his car's gas tank, attended a meeting outside of the office in the late afternoon, and returned to the lab for a few minutes that evening before moving off the radar screen and presumably driving overnight to Princeton. The letters were postmarked Sept. 18.

Not quoted by Lake is the following sentence in the WP report:

Nearly seven years after the incidents, however, investigators have come up dry in their efforts to find direct evidence to place Ivins at the Nassau Street mailbox in September and October 2001.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...1_Comments.html

AnthraxDoctor

wrote:

I was a medical director at the U.S. Postal Service at the time of the anthrax attacks, and have been following this story closely.

The gaping hole is whether Mr. Ivins had co-conspirators. The smoking gun is the second batch of anthrax spores (weapons grade) that were mailed to Senators Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy.

Apparently, those spores were coated with a polyglass which tightly bound hydrophilic silica to each particle. In addition they had been imparted with an electrostatic charge ("The Russian Recipe"). The FBI has not released evidence that Mr. Ivins had access to such equipment, nor the expertise to perform this process.

Who were the "four separate and well-placed sources" who told ABC News, falsely, that tests conducted at Fort Detrick had found the presence of bentonite in the anthrax sent to Tom Daschle, causing ABC News to aggressively link the attacks to Iraq for five straight days in October, 2001? [salon, 4/9/2007];

Who was responsible for the numerous leaks even before the ABC News bentonite reports linking the anthrax attacks to Iraq? [The Guardian; 10/14/2001; Wall St. Journal Editorial, 10/15/2001 ("Is Iraq unleashing biological weapons on America?"); CNN, 10/15/2001].

A comment by Mr. Spertzel, head of the biological-weapons section of Unscom from 1994-99: "The FBI spent between 12 and 18 months trying "to reverse engineer" (make a replica of) the anthrax in the letters sent to Messrs. Daschle and Leahy without success, according to FBI news releases. So why should federal investigators or the news media or the American public believe that a lone scientist would be able to do so?"

The F.B.I. has made no mention of handwriting analysis that might tie Dr. Ivins to the attack letters.

And: This was NOT the work of a single 'lone gunman'! At least one of the Anthrax letters was mailed **FROM FLORIDA**. Ivins was in the Maryland area -- he obviously didn't send the letter postmarked in Florida!

See:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/200...hrax/index.html

[Len Colby]

I like Ed Lake's analysis, although I don't think he's updated it with the most recent facts. He's kept up with it from the beginning, he's not personally involved as a victim or player, he's got a great archive of info, he thinks clearly and he's ready to correct facts and acknowledge when he was wrong.

Ed Lake's Analysis:

http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/

Can you summarize his key points that support your view? There is a great deal of info there and I didn’t see any that would indicate it wasn’t Ivins.

My analysis is that we are more at jeopardy, not from radical, foreign terrorists, but from neglegance in the handling of our own stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction, as our experience has painfully shown.

So far foreign terrorists have killed well over 3000 American civilians, the total number killed or even injured due to “negligence in the handling of our own stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction” is zero AFAIK. You could argue the potential is there but have yet to produce convincing evidence. The most shocking danger in your blog entry, that nuclear warheads were abandoned of the coast of NJ, was incorrect and based on a miss reading of a confusing text. But I agree that the incompetence has been shocking at times.

The debate shouldn't be about the Patriot Act, but the fact that the Anthrax attacks directly led to the ten fold funding to the tune of millions of dollars to the same secret government lab(s) that we now know were the source of the Anthrax for the attacks.

This is a legitimate concern, the problem is not so much the funding as the security problems including why a known nutcase like Ivins even if he wasn’t the culprit was able to work there.

If the Anthrax scientist who appropriated the Anthrax from the Ft. Detrick facility DID NOT author the words and letterings on the envelops, as seems to be the case, then there had to be an accomplace.

I don’t see any basis for the assumption Ivins didn’t write the addresses and notes.

And once a subject became a suspect, and identified as a possibly psychotic mental case, why inform them, and allow them to committ another, possibly even more catastrophic crime? Instead of committing suicide, what if he decided to take out as many people as possible? Unless it wasn't a suicide.

I think they had him on surveillance. This would not be the first time law enforcement would have to decide between detaining a suspect or otherwise letting them know they are being investigated and surreptitiously investigating them hoping they would further incriminate themselves. Also after the Hatfill catastrophe they could have waited till they had sufficient evidence. They also could have executed poor judgment though.

The bottom line is that this issue isn't yet resolved, and the next action may be in Congress, and give us an idea of how such hearings are held.

Agreed, though I think it was Ivins acting alone I don’t think that has been proven and there are legitimate questions about the handling of the case.

PS, my source for over 100 scientists had access to the Anthrax flasks at Fort Detrick:

OK agreed but they seem to have eliminated the others. How many of them were sociopaths with a connection to the mailbox?