Georgia attacks Sth Ossetia

[William Kelly]

Before the Gunfire, Cyberattacks.

Full scale war preceeded by cyber attacks. Is this a new trend?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/technolo...html?ref=europe

[Guest Gary Loughran]

From my favourite Irish politico, historical journalist Brian Feeney - Article in original here

I hope someone else likes it

Savage Putin teaching Bush a bloody lesson

Brian Feeney

By Brian Feeney

13/08/2008

There’s an uncanny symmetry in the history of Russia’s treatment of Georgia and Britain’s treatment of Ireland over the centuries.

Georgians have their own language, even their own alphabet, their own distinctive Orthodox Christian church symbolised by their own style of crucifix, St Nino’s cross.

The country has natural boundaries – the Black Sea and the Caucasus mountains.

The only way into Georgia from Russia used to be over high mountain passes. Now,

unfortunately for the Georgians, there’s the Roki Tunnel into South Ossetia from North Ossetia, the route Russian troops took last week.

In 1783 – exactly the same time as the ascendancy parliament in Dublin was making a play for autonomy from Britain – the Georgians were coming under pressure from one of their big neighbours – the Persians to their east.

The Georgians appealed to Catherine the Great of Russia, whose fleet dominated the Black Sea after defeating the Turks.

Mistake – once in, Russia never left.

Inevitably, the embrace of the Russian bear became suffocating.

In 1801, the year Britain sucked Ireland into the so-called United Kingdom with the Act of Union, Russia annexed Georgia to the Tsarist empire, a fate Georgians never accepted.

In 1917 Georgians saw their chance when Russia collapsed into civil war. They struck for independence, their leaders inspired by Irish

example. Roger Casement in particular caught their imagination.

However, the uprising was resisted by the Ossetians, playing the role of the Ulster Unionists. The Ossetians didn’t think much of their chances if they were being ruled by Georgians. Thousands of people were killed in the fighting as the Ossetians

struggled unsuccessfully to stay part of Russia.

In 1921 as the new USSR emerged from the turmoil of the Bolshevik revolution, the Red Army took Georgia back again as a Soviet republic, much to the delight of the Ossetians who, much to the annoyance of the Georgians, were constituted as a semi-autonomous province within Georgia – a bit like Norn Irn.

Again, as soon as the Georgians got a chance in 1991 they broke away from Russia and just to show nothing had changed, as soon as they could the Ossetians rejected Georgian rule with Russian help and declared independence in 1992.

Thus since 1801 Ossetians have looked to Russia to protect them against Georgian nationalism and Russian governments have always used Ossetians as a stalking horse to cramp Georgian independence.

Unlike the British in Ireland, the Russians have never relinquished their selfish, strategic and economic interest in Georgia. But like Ireland, the Georgians have no other nearby power to help them fend off the Russians.

The present fate of Georgia is compounded by the disastrous foreign policy adventures of the present detestable American administration.

When the US envoy to the UN protested at Russia’s

‘disproportionate response’ the Russian envoy, Vitaly Churkin, was able to reject the protest as

unacceptable “especially from the lips of a representative of a country whose actions we are aware of in Iraq, Afghanistan and Serbia”.

Everyone knows the phrase ‘disproportionate response’ was one America refused to use when its proxy in the Middle East,

Israel, was indiscriminately bombing residential districts in Beirut exactly two years ago. Everyone except the US (and its British poodle Blair) demanded a ceasefire. How is it different in Georgia the Russians ask?

Answer – it isn’t Israel killing civilians.

Here we see the fruits of the stupidities of George W Bush, the world’s most unpopular politician.

His government’s use of torture, kidnapping, indiscriminate bombing of civilians and disregard of the United Nations has squandered any moral authority the US claimed.

Now he is unable to protect his proxy in the Caucasus region and the Russians are taking great pleasure in rubbing his nose in it after having to sit helpless while Bush rampaged around the Middle East, as Putin said, “like a mad man with an open razor”.

Georgia is probably the only place in the world Bush was welcome. Georgians greeted him in 2005 as a saviour from the Russians.

The main road into Tbilisi is now called after him.

With his usual savagery Putin is teaching Bush,

the Georgians and any other would-be

American proxies on his borders a bloody lesson.

Stay out of my back yard.

[Len Colby]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

The Georgians themselves will say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

So you can predict the future now? They still say it started with the Ossetinans and Russians. You didn't answer my other questions so they still stand.

IMO however if the South Ossetians wish to succeed from Georgia they should be allowed to, the principle is the same as Korsovo. It is interesting how so many of the players take contradictory positions regarding the two very analogous situations.

[Maggie Hansen]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

The Georgians themselves will say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

So you can predict the future now? They still say it started with the Ossetinans and Russians. You didn't answer my other questions so they still stand.

IMO however if the South Ossetians wish to succeed from Georgia they should be allowed to, the principle is the same as Korsovo. It is interesting how so many of the players take contradictory positions regarding the two very analogous situations.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It is meant to read

The Georgians themselves say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

It would be a handy thing to predict the future. Though many things are predictable.

[Paul Rigby]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/russia-re...8139076806.html

Russian warplanes bombed Georgian targets yesterday, the Tbilisi government said, after Georgian forces surrounded and shelled the capital of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

The aftermath & consequences of the Georgian war crime:

http://bolshoyforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=18120.0

[Peter McKenna]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/russia-re...8139076806.html

Russian warplanes bombed Georgian targets yesterday, the Tbilisi government said, after Georgian forces surrounded and shelled the capital of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

The aftermath & consequences of the Georgian war crime:

http://bolshoyforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=18120.0

Calling the attack on Gori a “Georgian War Crime” is ridiculous. Obviously, all of the links identified in your hyperlink, providing references for the identification of atrocities, use the internet address-suffix “RU” which is of Russian origin. This information is blatant propaganda. Every news site I have seen reports that the bombardment and subsequent attacks on Gori are of Russian origin. Those atrocities were the responsibility of Moscow.

NPR, as well as other independent news outlets have reported that the incident was set off by South Ossetia's (also Abkhazia) appealing to Russia to help them secede from Georgia, which was likely provoked by Russia, since the US has been patronizing Georgia.

Russia had already been making military incursions into Georgia, therefore their influence in South Ossetia is suspect. They have been observed to exert diplomatic extortion of one sort or another to former Soviet Bloc nations such as the Ukraine and Georgia to exert their influence.

When Estonia removed a statue of Stalin, Russia launched a cyber-attack that shut them down.

It should be obvious who attacked Gori. The power base in Moscow is composed of Ex-KGB or FSB (Putin was a KGB Colonel), and they are now trying to re-assert their regional influence.

[Paul Rigby]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/russia-re...8139076806.html

Russian warplanes bombed Georgian targets yesterday, the Tbilisi government said, after Georgian forces surrounded and shelled the capital of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

The aftermath & consequences of the Georgian war crime:

http://bolshoyforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=18120.0

Calling the attack on Gori a “Georgian War Crime” is ridiculous.

I didn't. Your point is ridiculous. Malign, quite possibly bonkers, but ridiculous.

Obviously, all of the links identified in your hyperlink, providing references for the identification of atrocities, use the internet address-suffix “RU” which is of Russian origin. This information is blatant propaganda.

The South Ossetian capital and surrounding towns/villages weren't attacked by the Georgian war criminals, backed by NATO and the US? Really?

Is this truly the best you could come up with?

Paul

[Peter McKenna]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/russia-re...8139076806.html

Russian warplanes bombed Georgian targets yesterday, the Tbilisi government said, after Georgian forces surrounded and shelled the capital of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.

The aftermath & consequences of the Georgian war crime:

http://bolshoyforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=18120.0

Calling the attack on Gori a “Georgian War Crime” is ridiculous.

I didn't. Your point is ridiculous. Malign, quite possibly bonkers, but ridiculous.

Obviously, all of the links identified in your hyperlink, providing references for the identification of atrocities, use the internet address-suffix “RU” which is of Russian origin. This information is blatant propaganda.

The South Ossetian capital and surrounding towns/villages weren't attacked by the Georgian war criminals, backed by NATO and the US? Really?

Is this truly the best you could come up with?

Paul

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) – “The foreign minister of Russia said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back its two breakaway provinces, and the former Soviet republic remained on edge as Russia sent tank columns to search out and destroy Georgian military equipment…… The Georgian ambassador to the United States, H.E. Vasil Sikharulidze, said Russia was employing "scorched-earth" tactics - destroying Georgian commercial and military infrastructure and burning down religious sites beyond the conflict area of South Ossetia. “What defenses does Georgia have? Because of the cease-fire agreement, which Russia has not honored, Georgian troops are being moved to organize a defensive line 10 kilometers (six miles) away from Tbilisi," he said.

Georgia also accused Russia of using short-range missiles in Poti and Gori, showing reporters purported images of shrapnel. There was no immediate response from Russia.

Russian and Georgian troops briefly patrolled Gori, but relations between the two sides broke down and the Georgians left. At least 20 explosions were heard later near Gori, along with small-arms fire.

It was not clear whether it was renewed fighting or the disposal of ordnance from a nearby Georgian military base. Russia said its troops were there to establish contact with the civilian administration and take over abandoned military depots.

Gori, battered by Russian bombing over the week, lies on Georgia's main east-west road only 60 miles west of Tbilisi. AP Television News footage showed Russian troops in and near Gori, and Georgia said it was checking the area for mines.

An AP Television News crew heard explosions at a military base in the western city of Senaki and were told by officials from both Russia and Georgia that the Russians were destroying ordnance. Dozens of Russian armored vehicles and troops later set up for the night under camouflage on the main road from Senaki north to Zugdidi.

The same APTN crew followed Russian troops on the outskirts of Poti as they searched a field and a forest at an old Soviet military base for possible Georgian military equipment.

Georgia's coast guard said Russian troops burned four Georgian patrol boats in Poti on Wednesday, then returned Thursday to loot and destroy the coast guard's radar and other equipment.

Another APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked inside the Georgian government's elegant gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the Russian soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets, others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. Other Russian troops patrolled the city.

Note that at that time Russian troops were occupying Georgian territory, do you dispute this?

GORI, Georgia, Aug 9 (Reuters) – “Russian warplanes carried out up to five bombing raids on Saturday around the Georgian town of Gori close to the embattled breakaway region of South Ossetia, a Reuters reporter at the scene said.”

In the link you posted “Bolshoyforum” every source link referenced originated in Russia. Your links state that the Georgian “surprise” attack on Tskinvali began at approximately midnight on 8/8/08. The earliest posts in the link are dated August 11, after Russia attacked Gori and other towns in Georgia. You’ll note that at least one of the sites you linked reference atrocities in Gori, identifying they were faked.

By the way, South Ossetia was part of Georgia until Russia announced that it wasn’t anymore. If you believe Georgia, Russia failed to honor the cease fire. This puts Russian military on Georgian soil either at approximately the same time or before Georgia attacked Tskhinvali.

So the site you labeled as “The aftermath and the consequences of the Georgian War Crime”, as far as I can tell is Russian propaganda, released after Russia invaded Georgia. It is not even well disguised propaganda.

You say that towns in South Ossetia were “Attacked by the Georgian war criminals backed by the US and the UN”. What does that mean? The US and the UN paid them or provoked them to attack secessionists in their own country? You must be joking. Explain please exactly how the US and the UN backed Georgia in fighting rebel factions in their own country. I don’t think so.

I’m not denying Georgia may have committed atrocities. To be honest I don’t know. But I do know one thing, you don’t know either. Representing the information the way you did is propagandist.

[Len Colby]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

The Georgians themselves will say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

So you can predict the future now? They still say it started with the Ossetinans and Russians. You didn't answer my other questions so they still stand.

IMO however if the South Ossetians wish to succeed from Georgia they should be allowed to, the principle is the same as Korsovo. It is interesting how so many of the players take contradictory positions regarding the two very analogous situations.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. It is meant to read

The Georgians themselves say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

It would be a handy thing to predict the future. Though many things are predictable.

So, your claim now is that the Georgians themselves state they initiated the hostilities? That’s not what it said in Christopher’s link nor is that what it says in the Chicago Tribune:

Georgia's all-out assault on South Ossetia was preceded by attacks by Ossetian forces against Georgian troops earlier in the week, including a separatist ambush with rocket-propelled grenades on a Georgian armored personnel carrier that killed two soldiers and injured six, Georgian authorities said. On Thursday, a separatist mortar attack on the village of Avnevi killed eight Georgian civilians.

Thursday evening, Saakishvili called for a cease-fire and urged separatist leaders to resume talks on a peaceful settlement. But when separatists began shelling Georgian villages after Saakashvili's cease-fire call, Georgian leaders decided to move ahead with the assault.

"Separatists opened fire in response to yesterday's peaceful initiative of the president of Georgia," said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze in a televised address. "As a result, lives of civilians were under threat."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...0,4176197.story

IMO both sides are vastly over reacting, just as relatively small attacks by seemingly Russian backed separatists on Georgian targets didn’t justify the attack on Tskhinvali, that attack didn’t justify Russia’s response.

Are you now backing away from your claim that “the UN and other neutral parties” declared that Georgia initiated the hostilities?

[Mark Stapleton]

INITIAL POST: The US, France and Britain support Georgia in the United Nations:

But one phrase calling on all parties to “renounce the use of force” met with opposition, particularly from the United States, France and Britain. The three countries argued that the statement was unbalanced, one European diplomat said, because that language would have undermined Georgia’s ability to defend itself. Belgium, which holds the rotating presidency of the Security Council this month, circulated a revised draft calling for an immediate cessation of hostility and for “all parties” to return to the negotiating table. By dropping the specific reference to Georgia and South Ossetia, the compromise statement would also encompass Russia.

Go back and read it carefully. How does a statement to renounce the us of force prevent Georgia from defending itself? I obviously doesn't, but it would put pressure on Georgia to stop offensive military operations in South Ossetia.

We've seen this movie before. It is, as I predicted late last night, a repeat of the situation in the summer of 2006, when Israel conducted a campaign of air strikes in Lebanon, and the US and Britain rejected proposed UN resolutions that called for a cease fire. Expect the US, France and Britain to reject the new Belgium draft as well, as they will oppose any draft that does not place blame on the Russians, and responsibility for making concessions on them, in the hope that the war will go in favor of the Georgians. Again, as with the Israeli assault upon Lebanon, it is probably a forlorn hope, because there will be strong nativist popular Russian support for this conflict, as they perceive it as necessary to defend the people of South Ossetia against not just Georgia, but US and European sponsored aggression.

The situation is really quite shocking. The US and two of the dominant countries in the European Union are facilitating violent policies in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon and, now, Georgia. They are making demands upon Iran that increase the chances of war there as well. Germany is supportive in all instances, except this new Georgian adventure, probably because of its closer ties with the Russian Federation.

Few seem to understand that a red line has been crossed in South Ossetia. The US and the EU, with the assistance of Israel, is now openly using military force is in their political and economic competition with the Russians in the Caucasus and Central Asia. I try to avoid millenialist sensibilities, but, for the first time, I have become fearful that there is a horrifically destructive global conflict looming over the horizon. As US, Europe and Israel methodically go about increasing the number of tinder boxes, we can only hope that these conflicts somehow resolve themselves nonviolently. It is increasingly difficult to imagine that might happen.

I hope it doesn't escalate, but it seems the Russians have might have the situation under control for the moment.

[Maggie Hansen]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

The Georgians themselves will say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

Maggie- Did you read the link that I posted on 2 separate occasions? Each side blames the other for the August 1 and 2 skirmishes according to that article. I don't think that we will ever know who started the fighting this month or, for that matter, that either side has entirely clean hands.

I have enjoyed chatting with you on this matter and I will give you the final word(s). Chris

Sorry for the late response Chris.

Yes I did check out the link. I don't don't doubt that the event occurred.

However, lets go back a bit further.

Ever since Georgia became independent of Russia/USSR South Ossetia and Abkhazia have exercised their right to claim independence from Georgia. Under the USSR system they had autonomous status. There was a war to achieve this independence from Georgia. It was unresolved. Georgia was unable to exercise any control over these areas except for a small corridor in Abkhazia near the Georgian border. Things stayed pretty much like this for quite a while. Then in a coup (backed by the US), in 2004 I think, the current leader came to power. The Rose Revolution. He has stated on many occasions that he intended to recapture the breakaway provinces. For the last few months the Georgian military have been moving tanks and heavy vehicles in to the border regions of these areas. A big military build up. One can only conclude that they were preparing to invade. And in fact plans for the invasion of Abkhazia have been found in one of the military bases abandoned by Georgian troops. This build up did not go unnoticed by the Abkhazis or the South Ossetians. By the way I forgot to mention that there is an internationally recognized peace keeping force in these areas. In South Ossetia it is composed of South Ossetians, Georgians and Russians. They have been there since the early days at the end of the inconclusive war of the breakaway regions and Georgia. The UN reported that Georgia had started the sniper shooting in Abkhazia see here http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230. The source is Georgian report. The same thing has been happening in South Ossetia over the same time. Then the Georgian peacekeepers opened fire on the Russian and South Ossetian peace keepers killing 6 Russian and one Sth Ossetian, I think. Georgia moved in with tanks and attacked. Then the Russians came in 2 days later to protect their peace keepers and settle the situation in general as they are permitted to do so in law. Russia will withdraw from Georgia but I think Georgia can say goodbye to South Ossetia and Abkhazia.