An agent "gone haywire"

[Jim Root]

I have been putting together a timeline of my research over the past several months and continue to find interesting (at least to my research) points along that line.

On June 7, 1965 John J. McCloy said in an interview with Edward J. Epstein. McCCloy was asked the question, "Did you have any pet area of interest? McCloy answered, "...I thought Oswald was trained in Espionage. I saw a pattern--mail drops, micro dots, his code (?), his knowledge of sabotage, etc. I thought he might be a sleeper Soviet agent who went haywire. I think we put something of that in the Report, I did but it was toned down. the others said my evidence was not 'evidential.' I still believe it is possible some document will turn up showing Oswald may have been an agent. Not necessarily a conspiracy but an agent gone haywire."

McCloy's use of "inside information" to make himself look good for future history is an interesting trait that I believe led to J.Edgar Hoover's cold reception to having McCloy on the Warren Commission.

Some factual background concerning Hoover's concern:

From Nuclearfiles.org.....McCloy was a key player in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb. He was one of the few civilians to know about the project. During a meeting on June 18, 1945 Truman approved the invasion of mainland Japan. McCloy pushed for an alternative diplomatic approach to achieve a Japanese surrender. He (McCloy) wrote, "everyone was so intent on winning the war by military means that the introduction of political consideration was almost accidental." On the advice of President Truman McCloy took his ideas to Secretary of State james Burnes, who rejected them.

Of this meeting a Pentagon historian has advised me that "McCloy had direct access to Hurt's (John B. Hurt) 'analyses' and used such in his meetings with Truman while the greatest decisions of World War II were being decided."

John B. Hurt had decryped messages from the Japanese to the Soviets which showed that the Japanese were searching for an end to the war along the lines which McCloy would write into a proposed surrender demand that was incorporated into Article 12 of the Potsdam Proclamation. The original draft of the Proclamation included language that would have allowed Japan to keep its emperor, a condidtion that would have greatly increased the chances of Japan's acceptance of surrender. After the atomic bombings, McCloy believed for the rest of his life that "we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping bombs."

McCloy's words are closely mirrored in a declassified document that was written by John B. Hurt in 1947.

At the time of McCloy's interview with Epstein, Meridith Gardner's Memorandum for the Record, which would be completed on June 15, 1964 and dealt with Lee Harvey Oswald potential intelligence connections, was a classified document (it would be declassified in 2004). We do know that Meridith Gardner had worked closely with John B. Hurt during World War II. We do know that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to contact someone named John Hurt after the assassination. We do know that McCloy was willing to use classified information to make public statements that would show himself in a good light if future information were to be revealed.

Was McCloy aware of the "Raleigh Call" and that this information could potentially be made public at some later date?

Why was information about the "Raleigh Call" withheld from the American People?

Was McCloy aware of the fact that persons closely associated with John B. Hurt had been hand selected to do the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald's intelligence background?

Was McCloy aware of the fact that he could be associated with John B. Hurt?

Why are the records of the work that John B. Hurt did between 1945 and his retirement in 1963 still classified?

Thoughts,

Jim Root

Edited October 9, 2008 by Jim Root

[William Kelly]

I have been putting together a timeline of my research over the past several months and continue to find interesting (at least to my research) points along that line.

On June 7, 1965 John J. McCloy said in an interview with Edward J. Epstein. McCCloy was asked the question, "Did you have any pet area of interest? McCloy answered, "...I thought Oswald was trained in Espionage. I saw a pattern--mail drops, micro dots, his code (?), his knowledge of sabotage, etc. I thought he might be a sleeper Soviet agent who went haywire. I think we put something of that in the Report, I did but it was toned down. the others said my evidence was not 'evidential.' I still believe it is possible some document will turn up showing Oswald may have been an agent. Not necessarily a conspiracy but an agent gone haywire."

McCloy's use of "inside information" to make himself look good for future history is an interesting trait that I believe led to J.Edgar Hoover's cold reception to having McCloy on the Warren Commission.

Some factual background concerning Hoover's concern:

From Nuclearfiles.org.....McCloy was a key player in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb. He was one of the few civilians to know about the project. During a meeting on June 18, 1945 Truman approved the invasion of mainland Japan. McCloy pushed for an alternative diplomatic approach to achieve a Japanese surrender. He (McCloy) wrote, "everyone was so intent on winning the war by military means that the introduction of political consideration was almost accidental." On the advice of President Truman McCloy took his ideas to Secretary of State james Burnes, who rejected them.

Of this meeting a Pentagon historian has advised me that "McCloy had direct access to Hurt's (John B. Hurt) 'analyses' and used such in his meetings with Truman while the greatest decisions of World War II were being decided."

John B. Hurt had decryped messages from the Japanese to the Soviets which showed that the Japanese were searching for an end to the war along the lines which McCloy would write into a proposed surrender demand that was incorporated into Article 12 of the Potsdam Proclamation. The original draft of the Proclamation included language that would have allowed Japan to keep its emperor, a condidtion that would have greatly increased the chances of Japan's acceptance of surrender. After the atomic bombings, McCloy believed for the rest of his life that "we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping bombs."

McCloy's words are closely mirrored in a declassified document that was written by John B. Hurt in 1947.

At the time of McCloy's interview with Epstein, Meridith Gardner's Memorandum for the Record, which would be completed on June 15, 1964 and dealt with Lee Harvey Oswald potential intelligence connections, was a classified document (it would be declassified in 2004). We do know that Meridith Gardner had worked closely with John B. Hurt during World War II. We do know that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to contact someone named John Hurt after the assassination. We do know that McCloy was willing to use classified information to make public statements that would show himself in a good light if future information were to be revealed.

Was McCloy aware of the "Raleigh Call" and that this information could potentially be made public at some later date?

Why was information about the "Raleigh Call" withheld from the American People?

Was McCloy aware of the fact that persons closely associated with John B. Hurt had been hand selected to do the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald's intelligence background?

Was McCloy aware of the fact that he could be associated with John B. Hurt?

Why are the records of the work that John B. Hurt did between 1945 and his retirement in 1963 still classified?

Thoughts,

Jim Root

Jim,

Have you initiated any FOIA requests for documents?

BK

[Jim Root]

Not currently, but would love to find the CIA copy of Hosty's third note.

Jim Root

Edited October 14, 2008 by Jim Root

[Jim Root]

I posted this on the John Hurt thread but belive that it also belongs here since it folds in well with McCloy's suggestion of an "agent gone haywire."

Gentelmen

The suggestion here is that this does not have to be that complicated. Grombach's former SI men included Whitney Shepardson. Shepardson was Associated with Demitri D., brother of George D, Oswalds friend in Dallas. George guessed, correctly, I believe, that Oswald had missed in his attempt at killing Walker. If George passed this info on to his brother, then former SI man Richard Helms, who had worked for Shepardson, then has the FBI begin trailing and reporting on the movements of Oswald. (I will soon make a post that draws a connection to Helms' office ordering the observation of Oswald following the assassiantion attempt on Walker).

We next have the Bellin note that says the only missing piece that the CIA needed to know that Oswald would assassinate the President was that they did not know that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker. The above suggests that a very small group may in fact have known that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker.

The office of Richard Helms, via FBI surveillence, then becomes aware of where Oswald is working prior to the motorcade route being finalized. The MC is then directed to pass one last building which just happens to have working within it a man that the CIA themselves admit would assassiante the President if given the opportunity.

Means and opportunity.....

Motive. John J. McCloy, who had resigned as Kennedy's lead arms negotiator and was unhappy with Kennedy, spoke with Dwight Eisenhower about his distain for Kennedy and that he felt that Goldwater was not the right man to become President on the Republican side. McCloy got his wish, in some ways, neither Kennedy or Goldwater but rather Johnson, who would not only appoint McCloy to the Warren Commission but would also reappoint McCloy as the lead arms negotiator for the US.

McCloy literally got everything he wanted and can be directly linked to the group above as well as to John B. Hurt a man that shares the name (at a minimum) to the name of a man that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact after the assassiantion.

But everyone is so invested in attempting to prove consiracy by proving that Oswald was not the shooter we, as conspiracy theorists, may well have done the greatest work of coverup for the conspirators. By eliminating any ligitimate investigation into why Oswald would have committed the crime (for me especially the attempted assassination of Edwin Walker) we eliminate the possibility of discovering the trail that would lead my research to the group that I have suggested above. Nobody today doubts the roll of Helms in the pre assassination trailing of Oswald or in the post assassination cover up of significant evidence in the assassination. Why not look further into the men that controlled Helms, the men mentioned above, which includes John J. McCloy.

It all fits very neatly into a tightly held, very small group of conspirators that could allow the assassiantion to happen without having to actually place an assassin in a specific location to do the deed. The assassin would have no idea that he was doing the work of conspirators that were pulling his strings . These few conspirators would have the advantage of a detailed knowledge of the mental state of the man that they would "set up" to do the job.

A very difficult and complicated crime to unravel!

This has been interesting.

Jim Root

[Michael Crane]

One document worth reading.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/The...if?t=1224016715

* Click on document to enlarge it.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Michael Crane

[William Kelly]

One document worth reading.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/The...if?t=1224016715

* Click on document to enlarge it.

Michael,

The Crowley documents have been evaluated in detail and determined to be bogus and part of a black prop op, though it is interesting that they would go to so much trouble to create such blatantly false records must mean that they are serous about something.

I'd like to know if the records of the people mentioned in this thread (Hurt, Dimitri D, et al) have been requested FOIA?

Thanks,

BK

[Michael Crane]

I was not aware of this at the time I posted it.Thank you for the information.

[William Kelly]

I was not aware of this at the time I posted it.Thank you for the information.

Michael, Here's a few links re: Regicide, Gregory Douglas and the so called Operation Zipper if you want to go into these docs deeper.

http://eduxcationforum.ipbhost.com/index.p...Gregory+Douglas

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...Gregory+Douglas

xxxx

I think Jim Root's research is panning out. I never heard of the McCloy quote regarding "Agent Gone Wild" or (Girls Gone Heywire?) - but David A. Phillips made a similar suggestion, implying that Oswald was trained and ordered to kill Castro but he turned on JFK instead.

BK

[Jim Root]

William

Thanks for the encouraging words....I to believe that the trail that I have followed is leading toward the destination.

Do want to say that I do not believe that Oswald was "ordered" to kill anyone.

I am leaning strongly toward the belief that a very small group of handlers became aware of Oswald's willingness to kill only after he attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker. My inclination toward this belief has been strongly supported, in my simple mind, by the Bellin note (CIA assessment of Oswald's psych profile) as well as by the timming of the FBI surveilence of Oswald (begining in ernest after the Walker attempt). If, as I suggest, Oswald had been inseted into the Soviet Union by US Intelligence assets, it is my belief that a complete psych profile would have been completed before that occured which would have included Oswald's life history up till his early release from the Marines. This is exactly what the Bellin note suggests, with the inclussion of the Walker incident, was all that was necessary to identify a person as being willing to assassinate Kennedy.

I do not believe that Oswald had any contact with those that allowed the assassination to occur. It is my belief that the flow of information to Oswald followed one direction only, a downward direction, while the flow of information about Oswald doings and work location followed an upward direction but came from US Intelligence reports (FBI, Hosty notes, etc).

It is Hosty's identification of Oswald's place of imployment prior to the finalization of the motorcade route that is most intriquing. While Hosty references that note in his testemony, the note is missing from the official record. This fact seems to be ignored while we know and have seen Hosty's previous two notes which are located in the files of the office of Richard Helms. This third note has never been mentioned by that same office!

In the case of McCloy....he was a man with information. His whole life is involved in his ability to collect and distribute information as it is needed. Referred to as "The Chairman" (of the establishment), he was also known as "Mr Fix It" and the "most powerful private citizen in America" by those that knew him. McCloy was considered as one of the "seven wise men" that decided and directed American policy through the Cold War......And he was in a disagreement with Kennedy prior to the assassination....not an eviable position for other from the past that had crossed McCloy.

William, et al, have you ever read the story of Pericles? As a youth McCloy idealized him and would continue to mention Pericles throughout his life. In many ways it is easy to see parallels between McCloy and Pericles.

When Ephialtes became an obstacle to the authority of Pericles, Ephialtes was murdered in 461BC. In the eyes of Pericles this was in the interest of the public good.... and usherd in the Golden Age of Greece.

Jim Root