For Jack White - Moorman In The Street

[Guest Duncan MacRae]

Jack, I came across this video a few days ago and posted it on my own forum. A member of the forum, Martin Hinrichs, noticed something unusual in the video which I would like your opinion on if possible. The thread, the video where Mary tells us she stood in the street, and Martin's observation and analysis of the suspect frame can be viewed here.

Moorman In The Street Video With Suspect Zapruder Frames

Thanks

Duncan

Edited November 1, 2008 by Duncan MacRae

[Bill Miller]

If Martin knew the whole story, then he'd see what had happened. Morrman did step into the street to take one of her photos, but she has since said that she wasn't sure which photo it was. So explain to Martin that the photo taken of McBride shows people on the north side of Elm Street THROUGH his windshield and that this is a result of Moorman's 54" camera lens height being lower than the 58" standing height of the cycles windshield.

Next, show him Moorman's Polaroid and point out how Mary's camera is now elevated above the 58" standing height of the cycles windshield, thus anyone seen along the north curb of Elm Street is now seen not through the cycles windshield, but above it as well. So unless he can debunk the laws of physics and perspective, there will be no need in wasting time looking for a snippet of film showing where Moorman held her camera above her head to take her #5 Polaroid.

If you do this and explain to Martin how its important to cross reference films and photos and gather as much factual data as possible to start with, then it increases the chances of preventing unnecessary threads from being created. Feel free to remind him of the tripod man claim and the man atop of the colonnade claim to name just a few and I think it will help him in the long run.

Bill Miller

Edited November 2, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Jack, I came across this video a few days ago and posted it on my own forum. A member of the forum, Martin Hinrichs, noticed something unusual in the video which I would like your opinion on if possible. The thread, the video where Mary tells us she stood in the street, and Martin's observation and analysis of the suspect frame can be viewed here.

Moorman In The Street Video With Suspect Zapruder Frames

Thanks

Duncan

Nice video, Duncan. I had not seen it before.

I am the source of most of the images used in the video.

I showed that Polaroid #4 was missing. In one of my many conversations

with Jean Hill, she told me that she gave #4 to the officer who was pictured

in it, and he claims to have "lost" it when she asked it to be returned. It

was NOT, as the video claims, "confiscated" by authorities. In my many

talks with Jean, she steadfastly and uniformly insisted that both she and

Mary STEPPED INTO THE STREET as the limo passed. This was long BEFORE

any question arose about where they were standing. Since the car was

"only about ten feet away" she felt like she "could reach out and touch it."

Since the three lanes were 13.3 feet wide, her estimate sounds about

right if they were about 2 feet off the curb, which my studies show their

location to be.

It would be very interesting to see #4.

Thanks for posting the video.

Jack

Edited November 2, 2008 by Jack White

[Bill Miller]

In my many

talks with Jean, she steadfastly and uniformly insisted that both she and

Mary STEPPED INTO THE STREET as the limo passed.

Jack

Well, Jack ... in my many talks with Jean Hill, she always said that she was not in the street when the car passed her. I want to refresh your memory and remind you that Jean Hill appeared on Black Op Radio and was specifically asked by a caller who asked if she was in the street and when and Jean point blank told the caller that she had stepped into the street when JFK came onto Elm, but had gotten back up over the curb BEFORE the first shot was ever fired.

Bill Miller

[Jack White]

In my many

talks with Jean, she steadfastly and uniformly insisted that both she and

Mary STEPPED INTO THE STREET as the limo passed.

Jack

Well, Jack ... in my many talks with Jean Hill, she always said that she was not in the street when the car passed her. I want to refresh your memory and remind you that Jean Hill appeared on Black Op Radio and was specifically asked by a caller who asked if she was in the street and when and Jean point blank told the caller that she had stepped into the street when JFK came onto Elm, but had gotten back up over the curb BEFORE the first shot was ever fired.

Bill Miller

Lest the unwary be fooled, Jean despised Gary Mack, Dave Perry, Bill Miller and their ilk.

Jack

[Bernice Moore]

Originally posted by Jack White, from David Lifton......

Yesterday while reviewing some transcribed old notes taken many years ago

at the National Archives, David Lifton came across a long forgotten

information of the mother lode variety.

He was transcribing by hand, listening with earphones to audio tapes made

on the afternoon of 11-22-63, from KRLD Radio tape reels.

The reel was an interview by Jay Hogan of Mary Moorman and Jean Hill at

3:30 pm...on KRLD RADIO excerpts, Tape 5B and 6A at NARA.

I am excerpting from the lengthy transcript several relevant parts of the

interviews. Decide for yourself the importance of this first day evidence:

HOGAN:

Q: Hello, Mrs. Moorman?

A: Yes.

Q You took the picture just after the shooting, or just before?

A: Evidently, just immediately, as the. . . Cause he was, he was looking, you know,

whenever I got the camera focused and then I snapped it in my picture, he slumped over.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: About how close were you?

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: 10 or fifteen foot, I, no more . . . Because I fall behind my camera.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Were you up on that grassy bank there?

A: We stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: How many shots did you hear? You say "shots rang out".

A: Oh, oh, I don't know. I think three or four is what I, I uh, that I heard.

Q: Uh huh.

A: (continuing) that I'm sure of. Now, I don't know, there might have been more.

It just took seconds for me to realize what was happening.

Q: Yeah, uh, what as your first thought?

A: That those ARE shots. I mean, he had been HIT.

And that they're liable to hit me, cause I'm right at the car,

so I decided the place for me is to get on the ground (laughs)

Q: So huh, how did the president respond to this shot. I mean, did he just

slump suddenly?

A: He grabbed his chest, and of course, Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately,

and fell over him; and she said: "My God, he's been shot."

Q: Did you notice any other reactions...

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: Uh, they hesitated just for a moment [referring, I believe, to the car itself,

rather than to the behavior of any particular individual--dsl] cause I think they

were like I was, you know--'Was that a shot," or was itj ust a backfire, or

just what? And then, course, he clutched himself and they immediately sped up,

real fast, you know, like--to get OUT of there. And, uh, the police, there were

several motorcycles around him; and, uh, they stopped, and uh--one or two must

of went with him, And one ran up the hill, and a friend that was with me ran up

the hill across the street from where the shots came from.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: It (shots) seemed fairly close by?

A: Yes, uh huh.

Q And form what direction did they seem to be?

A: Oh, Lord? North. Just back there (at--laughs)

Q: Just just right at you?

A: Yes, sir.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might

have been a firecracker right there in that car.

Q: And in your picture, uh, you uh took this picture just BEFORE the shot?

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: Evidently, at the minute (means "instant") that he, that it hit him because,

uh, we was we was looking, at me, or I mean, he was looking, you know, at the

people when my picture came out. They just slumped over, so I must have got it.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: Yes, uh huh. You could see he's clutched, he's bent over, and she's... and she

hadn't even gotten up in my picture, and she DID get up, STOOD UP, in the car.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Uh huh. And you and your friend Miss Hill, uh, were together there

at the scene. Was anybody else with you?

A No, uh uh.

Q: OK, well we sure thank you.

FROM HERE ON OUT, the interview continues with Jean Hill

This was posted here on the EF by Jack White from David Lifton Feb.07...

*******************************

I found this partial copy of an interview of Mary Moorman, in a search a few years back....

Mary stated she WAS in the street again, when she took her polaroid....in 1997......

While being interviewed by KRLD ....The interview has been and was originally, and kindly provided by Debra Conway.....

Moorman: " UH, just immediately before the presidential car came into view, we were, you know, there was just tremendous excitement. And my friend who was with me ( Jean Hill ) we were right ready to take the picture. And she's not timid. She, as the car approached us, she did hollar for the president . " Mr.President, look this way !

AND I'D STEPPED OUT OFF THE CURB INTO THE STREET TO TAKE THE PICTURE. AND SNAPPED IT IMMEDIATELY .And that evidently was the first shot .You know I could hear the sound.And.

Jones: "Now, when you heard the sound, did you immediately think 'rifle shot'..?"

Moorman: "Oh no. A firecracker, maybe. There was another one just immediately following which I still thought was a firecracker. And then I stepped back up on to the grassy area. I guess just, people were falling around us, you know.

Knowing something was wrong . I cetainly didn't know what was wrong. "

B.........

Edited November 3, 2008 by Bernice Moore

[Don Bailey]

In my many

talks with Jean, she steadfastly and uniformly insisted that both she and

Mary STEPPED INTO THE STREET as the limo passed.

Jack

Well, Jack ... in my many talks with Jean Hill, she always said that she was not in the street when the car passed her. I want to refresh your memory and remind you that Jean Hill appeared on Black Op Radio and was specifically asked by a caller who asked if she was in the street and when and Jean point blank told the caller that she had stepped into the street when JFK came onto Elm, but had gotten back up over the curb BEFORE the first shot was ever fired.

Bill Miller

Lest the unwary be fooled, Jean despised Gary Mack, Dave Perry, Bill Miller and their ilk.

Jack

Thanks Jack, from my own experience I now understand why she despised that trio.

Don

[Bill Miller]

Lest the unwary be fooled, Jean despised Gary Mack, Dave Perry, Bill Miller and their ilk.

Jack

Jack, you sound like you are running for President and when the facts aren't helping you - you resort to mis-truths and propaganda. Jean was a nice lady and we shared many conversations in her later years. I never asked her about her opinions concerning Gary Mack, Dave Perry, Jack White or anyone else.

Now, I noticed that you didn't acknowledge Jean Hill saying on the Black Op's Radio Show that she had stepped into the street, but had gotten back out of it BEFORE the first shot was fired. Do you have an excuse for Jean saying this ... was it said out of despite for the caller - maybe despite for the Radio Show - maybe out of dedspite for you - or maybe because Jean wanted the caller on Len Osanic's Black Op' Radio Show to have the facts straight. I choose the latter.

I will defend you when I believe you to be correct, but you have been called on this before on more than one occasion ... its a matter of record ... and can be heard in Jean Hill's own voice while talking to the caller who presented that question to her on Osanic's show. I say shame on you for attempting to push what you must know to be an error on your part. This is just like what you did when you said that no other Moorman photo showed the gap that Thompson's drum scan does and yet you have never produced a single reference to where one of these alleged Moorman prints can be found. In fact, the great UPI print shows a gap unlike you and Fetzer's misalignment, so you just keep right on saying things that will make it even harder to defend the good things you have done.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

As nice a lady as Jean Hill may have been, nothing that she said can be taken seriously.

I've just discovered this interview with Jean on the Maury Povich show in 1991

Just watch this interview to see what I mean...unbelievable.

Duncan MacRae

Duncan, for every single thing Jean said that was taken out of context, the same can be said about you. Read Jean's book and try and distinguish the difference between what her intent was and what you've implied. When JFK came onto Elm Street, it was Jean intentions to run out near the car and get JFK to look her way so Mary could get his picture. Jean made it very clear that she realized that this wouldn't go over well with the Secret Service and decided to back off and get back onto the grass. Altgens #6 shows her back into position.

Now one would think that any rational thinker would be able to understand this just on the photographic evidence alone, but there seems to be some who appear bored and need to rehash old claims so to stir the pot. You have posted that you don't believe the Moorman photo to have been altered ... that you don't go for that nonsense. You also see yourself as someone who can understand perspective and can read a photo. This claim of Jack's has been ongoing for years. It has been pointed out that Moorman's camera is above the passing cycles windscreens seen in her photo. Moorman's camera lens height was 54" and the tops of the windscreens were 58" high off the ground. You've seen the photo Mary took of McBride, so having said all of this, then why did you start a thread on this crap. Was there nothing of this sorts going on at the Duncan forum, so you thought you'd lower the bar here???

Bill Miller

Edited November 3, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

A: 10 or fifteen foot, I, no more . . . Because I fall behind my camera.[/b]

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Were you up on that grassy bank there?

A: We stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.

So which is it -' right at the car' or as much as '15 feet' which puts her over the curb and in the grass? Right at the car would put her north of the cycles - meaning they passed behind her ... does her photo show this to be the case .... of course not. I have never seen so many otherwise intelligent people make so much out of nothing intelligent. (Think about it!)

Bill Miller

Edited November 3, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Miller apparently has not read Jean's book where it says she was in the street.

Here...I will make it easy...

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Miller apparently has not read Jean's book where it says she was in the street.

Here...I will make it easy...

Jack

Pay attention, Jack ... I read Jean's book and I assume Jean had also read it before telling the caller on Len's radio show that she had stepped back out of the street 'BEFORE' the first show was fired. No one is saying Jean never stepped into the street when JFK had rounded the corner and was starting to comes towards her and Mary. Bronson's slide shows Jean in the process of backing into position. Altegns #6 shows Jean in position still. All these photos were taken 'AFTER' the first shot was fired and Jean did say that she was back out of the street 'BEFORE' the first shot was fired. Your beef is with Jean - not me.

Bill Miller

[Jack White]

Miller apparently has not read Jean's book where it says she was in the street.

Here...I will make it easy...

Jack

Pay attention, Jack ... I read Jean's book and I assume Jean had also read it before telling the caller on Len's radio show that she had stepped back out of the street 'BEFORE' the first show was fired. No one is saying Jean never stepped into the street when JFK had rounded the corner and was starting to comes towards her and Mary. Bronson's slide shows Jean in the process of backing into position. Altegns #6 shows Jean in position still. All these photos were taken 'AFTER' the first shot was fired and Jean did say that she was back out of the street 'BEFORE' the first shot was fired. Your beef is with Jean - not me.

Bill Miller

I never had a beef with Jean, who was a very gracious lady, who told me many times in the

presence of many other researchers that she and Mary stepped OFF THE CURB. My beef is

with people who try to twist words to fit their purpose.

Jack

[Bernice Moore]

Here is Jean Hill's part of the transcipt, that was taken on Nov.22/63.......

from David Lifton.....

FROM HERE ON OUT, the interview continues with Jean Hill

Q: (continuing)

And also, here, we do have Miss Hill. Miss Hill, you were an

eyewitness, also?

A: Yes, I was . I suppose we were the people closest to the

President's car at the time.

Q: Uh, that as about 10 or fifteen feet, you'd say?

A: Not anymore than that at all.

Q: Uh huh. You were both looking right at the presidential car, then?

A: Yes, we were looking right at the President. We were looking at his face.

As Mary took the picture, I was looking at him. And he grabbed his hands across

his ch-when two shots rang out. He grabbed his hands across his chest. I have

never seen anyone killed, or in pain before like that but there was this odd

look came across his face, and he pitched forward onto Jackie's lap.

DSL NOTE: I believe this must mean: "to the side onto Jackie's lap" --because Jackie was

to the left of JFK, not in front of JFK. In my interview of the Newman's, circa 1971, in

person, and on tape, they talk of JFK falling to the side, or being thrust towards Jackie.

A: And uh, she immediately, we were close enough to even hear her, and

everything, and she fell across him and says "My God, he's been shot."

Q: ..... Did you notice particularly any of the other people around? At the time (she cuts in)

A: There was NO one around us on our side of the street. We had planned it that way;

we wanted to be down there by ourselves; that’s the reason we had gotten almost

to the underpass, so we’d be completely in the clear.

Q: Any other reactions form the other people in the motorcae, that you recall?

A: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came to a momentary halt,

and about that time 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out, and I guess it just didn't

register with me. Mary was uh had gotten down on the ground and was pulling at my leg,

saying "Get , get down, they're shooting, get down, they're shooting; and I didn't even

realize it. And I just kept sitting there looking. And uh uh just about that time, well,

of course, some of the motorcycles pulled away. And some of them pulled over to the side

and started running up the bank; there's a hill on the other side (she is interrupted)

Q: Yes, Maam.

A: And the shots came from there. After they were momentarily stopped--after the

first two shots--THEN they sped away REAL quickly.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Well, thank you Miss Hill, and also Miss Moorman, for speaking with us about this.

A. Thankyou.

ANNOUNCER: That's two eyewitnesses to the murdered president, who saw on his face the

anguish of his very last hour alive. Before we go back to CBS, here again are some

announcements of special local importance.

*****************************

TO SUMMARIZE:

MOORMAN

1. HOW CLOSE TO CAR: 10 or fifteen foot, I, no more

2. WHERE WERE YOU: We stepped out in the street

3. HOW MANY SHOTS: three or four ... there might have been more.

4. WHAT DID MRS. KENNEDY DO: Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately, and fell over him;

and she said: "My God, he's been shot."

5. WHAT DID THE LIMO DO: they hesitated just for a moment...and they immediately sped up

6. WHAT DID THE MOTORCYCLES DO: they stopped

7. WHERE DID THE SHOTS COME FROM: Oh, Lord? North.

8. WHAT DID YOUR PHOTO SHOW MRS. K DOING: he's bent over, and she's... and she

hadn't even gotten up in my picture, and she DID get up, STOOD UP, in the car.

HILL:

1. HOW CLOSE TO CAR: about 10 or fifteen feet...not anymore than that at all.

2. WHAT DID THE PRESIDENT DO: he pitched forward onto Jackie's lap.

3. WHAT DID MRS. K DO: she fell across him and says "My God, he's been shot."

4. WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU: There was NO one around us on our side of the street

5. WHAT DID THE LIMO DO:The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came

to a momentary halt. After they were momentarily stopped--after the first two shots--THEN

they sped away REAL quickly.

6. WHERE DID THE SHOTS COME FROM: there's a hill on the other side...and the shots came

from there.

THIS IS FIRST DAY TESTIMONY FROM THE TWO CLOSEST WITNESSES.

Jack

Posted Feb.2007

B...........

[Bill Miller]

H

THIS IS FIRST DAY TESTIMONY FROM THE TWO CLOSEST WITNESSES.

Jack

Posted Feb.2007

B...........

Never have I ever seen an embracing of obvious exaggerations and errors over the word of the witness herself. Jean talks like no one was around her, yet there were people on both sides of her and behind. Of course this is little stuff ... when the caller phones Black Op to speak with Jean, he specifically wanted to know about where she stood during the shooting. Jean backed him up and clarified her leaving the street BEFORE the first shot was fired. This can be heard in Jean's own words and yet someone like Jack wants to forget what his good friend said in the real and dwell in less than detailed snippets in order to try and appear correct. Like I said earlier, Jack could have gone to Jean and gotten a video or recording getting Jean to clarify things if for no other reason than to validate his claim, but he didn't. The same can be done while Moorman is still alive, but he doesn't. Mark Oakes who is a friend of Moorman's and who sells her photograph autographed by Mark sates that Mary thinks the 'Moorman in the street' stuff is just plain silly (Mary's words).

Bill Miller

Edited November 4, 2008 by Bill Miller