Richard Randolph Carr

[John Dolva]

What? Me faithful???

[Antti Hynonen]

DUKE: "I don't need his testimony for that, either. I should point out, however, that I had no particular axe to grind against Carr when I started to look into his deal; indeed, I'd actually been looking at disproving someone who (I'd heard) said that he'd been "in the building where Carr was," had "looked out" and not been able to see what Carr had said he'd seen. "

It would be interesting to know whom you are talking about, as well as exactly what they claimed to have (not) seen.

[Duke Lane]

It doesn't matter because it turns out that what I'd heard isn't what the individual had actually said. At least, not including the part about being where Carr actually was, just merely inside the building, unsure if even the same floor. It was just something I'd heard, and I wasn't keen on accepting the dismissal so off-handedly.

In truth, prior to Jack White posting the aerial, I never knew exactly which building building was under construction at the time. Somewhere along the line, I'd also heard mention of the Lawrence Hotel, and thought that might've been it (it is the next building south of the courthouse on Houston). If so, other than the distance factor (which I hadn't yet considered), I didn't see why Carr couldn't have been able to see the TSBD.

I also received the following in email a few days ago:

Duke,

At your request today, I viewed the line of sight to the George Allen Courts Building from the sixth floor sniper's nest. I stood next to the glass restricting public entrance to get a direct view through the TSBD corner window to the Allen building. The lowest visible floor was the ninth floor; all floors below were blocked from view by the Old Red county court house on the southeast corner of Main & Houston streets.

Any Museum visitor can see the exact same view. Also, EarthCam has a camera mounted in the recreation box at the sniper's nest window. The camera rotates and the early view down Houston Street shows the line of sight in that direction, but not the Allen building:

http://www.earthcam.com/jfk/

Best regards,

Gary Mack

Curator

The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza

The camera view looks toward the Allen building (the new county courthouse), but its angle is downward enough that nothing above the roof of Old Red is visible, i.e., the top of the frame doesn't rise high enough. I understand that you can order photos to be taken by the museum showing this view, tho' I think we've already seen samples validating what Gary said above.

This isn't a huge issue since Carr never claimed to have seen anyone on the sixth floor, but on the seventh (or "top") floor initially, then on the fifth while under oath. As one descends from one floor to the next, however, they would see less, not more, of the upper floors (of either building).

The photos below are views from the seventh floor, successively from the eastern-most window and each set of windows to the west, across the front of the building. You can see which of the upper floors of the courthouse building can be seen from it: the top three in the narrow section and one floor, perhaps 1½ floors, below it. I don't think these are the sixth or seventh floors of the courts building. If not ...?

[Don Jeffries]

Duke,

It's shocking to learn that Gary Mack supports your position.

Peter,

Great post. I agree 100%.

Carr was hardly the only witness to claim that their FBI report/WC testimony didn't accurately reflect what they'd stated. None of these witnesses knew each other, so there hardly can be an innocent explanation for all of them stating that the official record didn't accurately reflect their testimony. There were also reports from disparate witnesses about being intimidated in some way (told to "be quiet" or stick to the official story, etc.) by FBI agents. Maybe they were all, like Carr, lying for unknown reasons. Really, what is the motivation here for Carr to lie about what he'd seen? Did he profit at all from the experience? Btw, if he really was attacked and killed one of the attackers in the process, shouldn't there be some record of that? If so, at least we know he was telling the truth about that (plus, someone chose to attack him for some reason).

As for the idea that "conspiracy theorists" are somehow part of a lucrative "industry," I'd like to know which pro-conspiracy critic has made any real money EVER from their assassination work. Mark Lane, Josiah Thompson, Jim Marrs and David Lifton all had books that sold well. I think all except Lane are members of this forum; perhaps they'd like to give us an idea of how "lucrative" their books turned out to be. My guess is that no conspiracy writer has ever made, or is ever likely to make, the kind of money that Posner and Bugliosi made from their apologist works.

As I've said before, I don't understand why Duke is going to such lengths as investigating Carr's military service in such detail, in order to discredit him as an assassination witness. The quibbling over the color of the Rambler, for instance, is ridiculous. One said green, the other gray. Some shades of green and gray are very similar. Besides, the important thing is that he reported seeing a Rambler, in the same place, and at the same time that several other witnesses, all unknown to each other, reported it. That's much more significant, in my view, than his exact description of the driver or the exact color of the car.

[Duke Lane]

... As I've said before, I don't understand why Duke is going to such lengths as investigating Carr's military service in such detail, in order to discredit him as an assassination witness. The quibbling over the color of the Rambler, for instance, is ridiculous. One said green, the other gray. Some shades of green and gray are very similar. Besides, the important thing is that he reported seeing a Rambler, in the same place, and at the same time that several other witnesses, all unknown to each other, reported it. That's much more significant, in my view, than his exact description of the driver or the exact color of the car.

Carr discredited himself; I'm only showing where and how, but let's leave that aside for now.

Roger Craig, on Elm Street, said that a green Rambler drove down Elm Street, honked in front of the TSBD, and someone resembling Oswald raced down the incline and got into the vehicle, which continued west on Elm and out of downtown; it was driven by someone with a dark complexion. Fair enough.

Richard Carr said that he saw a gray Rambler on Record Street just north of Commerce, driven by a Negro, into which a man in a sport coat got into and drove off north on Record Street. Then he changed his mind and saw a gray Rambler parked beside the TSBD into which the man in the sport coat did not get into (two other men he hadn't mentioned before did, however) and the car sped off north on Houston Street while the sport-coated man (who'd previously gotten into the gray Rambler at Record & Commerce) walked south on Houston and "out of sight" (rather than into the gray Rambler).

Somehow you find it "important" that both reported seeing "a" Rambler - a pretty popular car at the time, tho' you're probably too young to know that (and I almost am) - that were not really "in the same place" even if they were within a block or several blocks of each other.

Was the gray Rambler on Record & Commerce "in the same place" as Craig's green Rambler on Elm?

Was the gray Rambler on Record & Commerce, or was it on Houston Street beside the TSBD? When it left speeding north on Houston, was it headed to "the same place" as the green car going west on Elm? How do you know? Because it was a Rambler?

In my opinion, if a man claims to have served in an elite branch of the armed forces in a major campaign in which there were very few survivors, himself among them, and turns out not to have done either, one should not trust the word of such a man if he told you it was daytime at noon.

You may feel otherwise. That's your right.

Remember, James Romack and Pop Rackley were unknown and didn't think they had anything important to contribute until they read in the paper about what someone else claimed to have seen that directly contradicted what they, themselves, had witnessed. What makes you think it's not possible that someone else read something in the paper and added it to "substantiate" what they'd been perhaps telling people?

I don't find it shocking that other people support a correct position; why do you? I do find it shocking that I can take photos showing that a particular location was not visible from another, and people still believe it could have been, or that some improbable special circumstance possibly made it so, and nothing at all (short, possibly of having been there, seen that, which many or most haven't) will dissuade them from their belief, which they cannot even provide any modicum of actual, physical support for. And you don't find that equally shocking?

I'm shocked.

[John Dolva]

"Duke is going to such lengths as investigating Carr's military service in such detail, in order to discredit him,,,"

"Carr discredited himself; ..." Exactly, and in the process of thsi thread much else is learnt. Why try to stifle Duke here?

__________________

on my own speculations :

Meanwhile, Harry, (trained suspicioner, excellent memory (except when it comes to PO regulations, people he's with and so on)), from probably the best vantage point, considering field of view plus oculars, with four, or so, others, directly opposite the sixth floor window, cattywampus of the headshot) saw 'nutting'... oh dear, who to believe??? (I'm so shocked I think I'll go and dig a hole and stick my head in it.)

[William Kelly]

Duke:

....As much as I've found Carr's testimony about the events in Dealey Plaza to be questionable at the very, very best, the above information clinches for me that the man committed blatant perjury and got away with it only because there was no apparent way for anyone to verify or refute what he'd said. To this day, there is not a war veteran who cannot tell you where he or she had been during their term of service. There have been several recent cases where it's been found that men who either were not in the service or who did not see action, later represented themselves as being or doing something that they weren't or didn't do, or as having received awards that they never earned; so many and so preposterous, in fact, that it is now a federal offense to imposter one's self as a decorated veteran of the US Armed Services.

Personally, I find it deplorable when someone makes themselves out to be a hero when they are not, and to have war-related experiences and expertise that they did not have nor earn: by doing so, these despicable people trample the memory and experiences of those who fought and died by making themselves out to be as brave and heroic as the men (and now, women) who were actually there.

If Carr fabricated this experience - as the available evidence strongly suggests he did - then his account of the events of November 22 should not only be dismissed, but they - and he - ought to discarded and shunned as nothing but the basest lies of one who is bereft of all decency. If he lied about his role in the war - if he was even ever in the Armed Services! - then it lays bare and underscores his willingness to lie under oath about something he never actually even saw….

[William Kelly]

CDs 321 and 385

Duke:

Carr's observations first came to light on December 27, 1963, after the sister (Mary Sue Brown) of a friend of Carr and his wife's (Elsie Johnson) reported her recollection of a conversation held between them and a fifth party, Holly Jordon (possibly in conjunction with a holiday visit?). Carr had opined during this conversation that Lee Oswald had not shot Kennedy…

Carr is most likely not part of any kind of "team" of any sort; my estimation is that he's very simply just a wannabe: someone who simply wanted to be important and thus created a story based upon bits of what he knew of others', thus giving him his own 15 minutes of fame.

What follows is fact, and it goes to show you that no, we don't know. In fact, my suspicion is that, when people have read this, Richard Carr will no longer be "a witness," but "part of the plot." Here's the short version of the deal:

Carr's story came to light on December 27, 1963, when one Mary Sue Brown contacted the FBI to tell them what he'd said, albeit not entirely accurately. No matter. Mary Sue's sister was one Elsie Johnson (both nee Barnes), who had also been present - along with a Holly Jordon - when Carr told them his story. Carr's story may simply have been one-upmanship, given that the conversation had started about how the two (former) Barnes girls had supposedly been interviewed regarding their relationship with Jack Ruby.

Well, it turns out that they did know Ruby, but largely through Eva Grant, his sister. In fact, they'd known Eva since 1944 or 1945 and were apparently fairly close friends with her and her brothers (plural) for several years: Elsie had actually lived with Eva for several weeks in a house in the neighborhood of Bishop and Melba Streets in Oak Cliff. This is approximately three blocks west of Beckley Street and north of Jefferson, but it was, as noted, several years before the assassination. She had also once been a commercial artist, but ended up working with Sam Ruby "in the building business" in Dallas for several years.

Mary Sue had also stayed with Eva on and off, generally for short periods of time, during the same timeframe in the same residence which, it may be noted, is within a half-mile of Richard Carr's home at 728 North Bishop. The last time she'd stayed with Eva, a 1/3-carat diamond went missing, apparently pried out of a ring belonging to Eva which her mother had given her (the girls told a different story, that Eva had made the whole thing up to collect insurance money). Prior to that, Mary Sue had also worked in one of the clubs that Eva operated for Jack as a "singer and songwriter." The girls were close enough to Eva that they would all ride together in Elsie's car to visit Mrs. Barnes, the girls' mother, somewhere "in the country" outside of Dallas at least once a year.

Mary Sue had been to Jack's various apartments from time to time, noticing "several times" that he'd have rolled-up bundles on his table that looked very curious to her. One time she asked him what was in them, and he'd told her it was his laundry. One gets the impression that she thought it was suspicious, at least after he'd killed Oswald, sort of like the neighbor who finds that the "really nice and quiet" guy next door is actually a serial killer, and now remembers all sorts of "signs" that he should've picked up on, but "who'd ever have guessed?"

In December 1963, the girls were living at 6101 Singing Hills, in southeast Oak Cliff (which, incidentally, is within six blocks of the home of another witness in the saga who also used to work for Jack Ruby). In March, Elsie (and possibly Mary Sue) had apparently moved to 1125 North Bishop, which address she had given to the FBI when she had "telephonically advised" them that she was going to be subscribing to The Worker, but wanted to let them know that she wasn't a communist or communist sympathizer. Seems like she may have turned into something of an assassination buff, doesn't it? And who can blame her when you consider this:

The FBI also interviewed a woman whose name had been found in Ruth Paine's personal address/phone book who indicated that she was "casually acquainted" with Ruth, but being a member of the ACLU (at a meeting of which she had first met Ruth in May 1963) and the First Unitarian Church of Dallas, she was much better acquainted with Michael Paine, whom she saw frequently at both. The woman's name? Elsie Johnson.

All of that said, how clear is it now that we "know" that any collaboration between Richard Carr and unknown third parties "didn't happen?"

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

Edited February 20, 2009 by William Kelly

[Duke Lane]

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

What do you think it explains, Bill?

[William Kelly]

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

What do you think it explains, Bill?

Well, after giving us your take on Carr:

"my estimation is that he's very simply just a wannabe: someone who simply wanted to be important and thus created a story based upon bits of what he knew of others', thus giving him his own 15 minutes of fame."

You tell us that we never would have heard of him at all if it wasn't for a group of girls who he told his story to, and one of them immediately called the FBI.

And who were this group of girls?

Mary Sue Brown, Holly Jordan and Elsie Johnson.

Mary Sue had lived with Eva Grant, Jack Ruby's sister, and Elsie Johnson knew Ruth Paine, but was closer friends with Michael Paine, who she knew from both the ACLU and the Unitarian Church they both attended.

To refresh your memory, Michael Paine took Oswald to an ACLU meeing shortly before the assassination, so Elsie Johnson may have even met Oswald, the accused assassin, who was killed while in police custody by Jack Ruby, Mary Sue's friend and brother of the women she once lived with.

[William Kelly]

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

What do you think it explains, Bill?

Well, after giving us your take on Carr:

"my estimation is that he's very simply just a wannabe: someone who simply wanted to be important and thus created a story based upon bits of what he knew of others', thus giving him his own 15 minutes of fame."

You tell us that we never would have heard of him at all if it wasn't for a group of girls who he told his story to, and one of them immediately called the FBI.

And who were this group of girls?

Mary Sue Brown, Holly Jordan and Elsie Johnson.

Mary Sue had lived with Eva Grant, Jack Ruby's sister, and Elsie Johnson knew Ruth Paine, but was closer friends with Michael Paine, who she knew from both the ACLU and the Unitarian Church they both attended.

To refresh your memory, Michael Paine took Oswald to an ACLU meeing shortly before the assassination, so Elsie Johnson may have even met Oswald, the accused assassin, who was killed while in police custody by Jack Ruby, Mary Sue's friend and brother of the women she once lived with.

Does anyone have any more info on Elsie Johnson or Mary Sue Brown or Holly Jordan?

Nothiong on Holly at all?

Thanks,

BK

[Robert Howard]

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

What do you think it explains, Bill?

Well, after giving us your take on Carr:

"my estimation is that he's very simply just a wannabe: someone who simply wanted to be important and thus created a story based upon bits of what he knew of others', thus giving him his own 15 minutes of fame."

You tell us that we never would have heard of him at all if it wasn't for a group of girls who he told his story to, and one of them immediately called the FBI.

And who were this group of girls?

Mary Sue Brown, Holly Jordan and Elsie Johnson.

Mary Sue had lived with Eva Grant, Jack Ruby's sister, and Elsie Johnson knew Ruth Paine, but was closer friends with Michael Paine, who she knew from both the ACLU and the Unitarian Church they both attended.

To refresh your memory, Michael Paine took Oswald to an ACLU meeing shortly before the assassination, so Elsie Johnson may have even met Oswald, the accused assassin, who was killed while in police custody by Jack Ruby, Mary Sue's friend and brother of the women she once lived with.

Does anyone have any more info on Elsie Johnson or Mary Sue Brown or Holly Jordan?

Nothiong on Holly at all?

Thanks,

BK

Forum members may find this interesting.

Excerpt from Friday November 22, 1963 Dallas Times Herald late edition

continued from “Connally Also Hit By Sniper” from page 1

Patrolman W. E. Barker saw workers in the Texas School Book Depository pecking on a window

from the third floor and pointing to a man wearing horn-rimmed glasses, a plaid coat and rain

coat.

The officer immediately arrested the man and placed him in a roomful of witnesses in Sheriff

Bill Decker’s office across the street from the depository.

With the young man protesting, the crowd all along the way jeered at him as he was escorted

across the street. One woman said to the man: “I hope you die.”

One woman screamed hysterically, “Is that him? “Is that him?”

Officers on the case would not explain what connection the man might have with the shooting

nor would they identify him.

Friday November 22, 1963 Dallas, Times Herald late edition. page A-19

There are a lot of other interesting items to consider in that Edition...But I thought that

the above was the most compelling.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Robert Howard

[Duke Lane]

Hey, Robert, that is an interesting story. Who was the writer of this piece? Can you tell if it was reported first-hand or as part of a series of second- and third-hand reports (e.g., "my friend who was there told me that ...")? Either way, the guy in the plaid jacket isn't the guy Carr claimed to see ... tho', y'know ... he could be Ed Hoffman's "railroad man," ya think?

(Please let's not even go there beyond that!)

Your quote of the earlier message also reminded me of something I'd meant to post a long time ago to make a point:

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

What do you think it explains, Bill?

Well, after giving us your take on Carr: "my estimation is that he's very simply just a wannabe: someone who simply wanted to be important and thus created a story based upon bits of what he knew of others', thus giving him his own 15 minutes of fame."

You tell us that we never would have heard of him at all if it wasn't for a group of girls who he told his story to, and one of them immediately called the FBI. And who were this group of girls? Mary Sue Brown, Holly Jordan and Elsie Johnson.

Mary Sue had lived with Eva Grant, Jack Ruby's sister, and Elsie Johnson knew Ruth Paine, but was closer friends with Michael Paine, who she knew from both the ACLU and the Unitarian Church they both attended.

To refresh your memory, Michael Paine took Oswald to an ACLU meeing shortly before the assassination, so Elsie Johnson may have even met Oswald, the accused assassin, who was killed while in police custody by Jack Ruby, Mary Sue's friend and brother of the women she once lived with.

Let it not be said I've spread false information. Well, not entirely false, but misleading. In truth, it caught me up the first time I read it, but after doing a little more looking into it, I found that the connection I'd seen at first didn't actually exist.

That is: the Elsie Johnson that Ruth Paine knew was not the Elsie Johnson that Carr knew. They were just two women who happened to share the same name.

Even tremendous odds work out sometimes: how do you think people win lotteries (a 1:532,568,923 chance in winning)?

Edited July 22, 2009 by Duke Lane

[Robert Howard]

Hey, Robert, that is an interesting story. Who was the writer of this piece? Can you tell if it was reported first-hand or as part of a series of second- and third-hand reports (e.g., "my friend who was there told me that ...")? Either way, the guy in the plaid jacket isn't the guy Carr claimed to see ... tho', y'know ... he could be Ed Hoffman's "railroad man," ya think?

(Please let's not even go there beyond that!)

Your quote of the earlier message also reminded me of something I'd meant to post a long time ago to make a point:

THANKS FOR THAT DUKE, IT EXPLAINS A LOT - BK

What do you think it explains, Bill?

Well, after giving us your take on Carr: "my estimation is that he's very simply just a wannabe: someone who simply wanted to be important and thus created a story based upon bits of what he knew of others', thus giving him his own 15 minutes of fame."

You tell us that we never would have heard of him at all if it wasn't for a group of girls who he told his story to, and one of them immediately called the FBI. And who were this group of girls? Mary Sue Brown, Holly Jordan and Elsie Johnson.

Mary Sue had lived with Eva Grant, Jack Ruby's sister, and Elsie Johnson knew Ruth Paine, but was closer friends with Michael Paine, who she knew from both the ACLU and the Unitarian Church they both attended.

To refresh your memory, Michael Paine took Oswald to an ACLU meeing shortly before the assassination, so Elsie Johnson may have even met Oswald, the accused assassin, who was killed while in police custody by Jack Ruby, Mary Sue's friend and brother of the women she once lived with.

Let it not be said I've spread false information. Well, not entirely false, but misleading. In truth, it caught me up the first time I read it, but after doing a little more looking into it, I found that the connection I'd seen at first didn't actually exist.

That is: the Elsie Johnson that Ruth Paine knew was not the Elsie Johnson that Carr knew. They were just two women who happened to share the same name.

Even tremendous odds work out sometimes: how do you think people win lotteries (a 1:532,568,923 chance in winning)?

The author of the piece from page one by the way, and continued on page 19 was George Carter. The issue is very interesting in its own right, for reasons I will not delve into here.

There are other articles that should have, in my opinion been corrected or modified, in light of the assassination. For Example one article mentions that upon return of Lodge's trip from overseas, he will "meet with President Kennedy on Sunday."

Obviously, if President Kennedy is dead, the article would have more accurately read "he was to have met with Kennedy on Sunday."

Regarding the name issue you referenced with regard to Elsie Johnson, after repeatedly running into this aspect of research it does not surprise me in the least.

So the person the article is describing would have to be Larry Florer, wouldn't it?

[Antti Hynonen]

Yesterday, I finally received copies of the remaining existing military records of Richard R. Carr.

In my opinion, only a few interesting facts remain to be found in the documents, the rest were destroyed in the 1973 fire.

The most interesting item about him in these records is that he was disonorably discharged, due to having gone AWOL in May of 1945. The way I understood this, is that this was the second time he went AWOL (Absent without leave). The second time he went missing was for a period of no less than 3 months!

RR Carr was sentenced to three years of hard labor. He served part of his penalty in France and part of it in the USA. According to the record RR Carr served in the First Army during his military career.

Here is some information on the first Army (about half way down you can see that this Army took part in D-Day and many other key battles of WW II):

http://www.first.army.mil/history.htm

What I do find odd, is that Carr would make up his story about his being part of the 5th Ranger battalion and Anzio, because, as the records indicate, Carr was indeed part of an active US Army unit (First Army), that saw plenty of combat.

Why did he just not say he served in WW2 in the US First Army and took part in D-Day, the Battle of the Bulge and was part of the first unit to find and cross the Bridge at Remagen, and took part in containing the last significant German military entity in the North-Western part of Europe?

This way, at least, if the defence in New Orleans wanted to challenge his military background as an expert witness, the records would have indicated that he was part of the US First Army from 1942-1945, which fought in many major European campaigns.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Antti Hynonen