Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Jack White]

Haslam's MARY, FERRIE AND THE MONKEY VIRUS gives specific details of the death

of Mary Sherman, and shows the sensational stories in a New Orleans newspaper.

I just finished rereading that chapter. If Haslam knows what he was talking about,

then I am just quoting him...so you should say Haslam does not know what he

is talking about. Have you even read MARY, FERRIE AND THE MONKEY VIRUS?

Jack

You continue to make a fool of yourself, Jack! How many times do I have to tell

you that you don't know what you are talking about. This is beyond bewildering.

But Jim...Mary Sherman died at home in her apartment. If the LINEAR ACCELERATOR was located

in the Public Health Hospital, how could it have been responsible for her death?

Have you read the reports of her death?

COMMENT ON JACK'S METHODOLOGY

In post #1474, Jack asserted that he is reading all of the new posts, even

though he has said repeatedly that he is not reading those from Judyth.

In post #1479, I identified the location of the linear particle accelerator:

None of it can be known with certainty, but the basic elements are very strongly supported.

It would be a mistake to suppose that every aspect of her story has to be supported to the

same degree as every other. Among the 17 findings that Haslam enumerates, which I have

reiterated above, the most important and best supported concern Judyth's ability to conduct

reseach on cancer, that she was induced to come to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner, that she

met and worked with Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Lee Oswald, that Mary was killed by

a massive source of electricity (almost certainly the linear particle accelerator at the Public

Health Hospital), and that Judyth was summarily dismissed by Ochsner after she complained

about the prisoner who was used in a (fatal) experiment conducted without informed consent.

In post #1495, he asks if the accelerator was located in Ferrie's apartment or lab across the

street. Not to put too fine a point on it but, given this post, how can post #1474 be truthful?

Here is a LINEAR PARTICLE ACCELERATOR. Did David Ferrie have his in his apartment

or his laboratory across the street?

Jack

[Jack White]

I do not know why this reply was posted a second time. I had opened it and was reading

it and when I closed it, it posted somehow. But as long as it reposted, I will add that

I have not said that I do not read Judyth posts. I have said I do not read REPEATED

OR REPETITIVE Judyth posts. Much of what she said is nonsense, and not much is

learned from reading it. But I do learn a few things like the monkeys that were kept in

Ferrie's lab, the linear particle accelerators they used, and that the "actual" lab

was across the street, instead of in Ferrie's apartment as previously claimed.

And IF Haslam's father, Dr. Ed Haslam, worked in the Oschner Clinic, it seems

a lack of full disclosure if Haslam fails to mention it. What IF the JVB follies are

a planned distraction to divert attention AWAY from Oschner's wrongdoings?

Jack

Haslam's MARY, FERRIE AND THE MONKEY VIRUS gives specific details of the death

of Mary Sherman, and shows the sensational stories in a New Orleans newspaper.

I just finished rereading that chapter. If Haslam knows what he was talking about,

then I am just quoting him...so you should say Haslam does not know what he

is talking about. Have you even read MARY, FERRIE AND THE MONKEY VIRUS?

Jack

You continue to make a fool of yourself, Jack! How many times do I have to tell

you that you don't know what you are talking about. This is beyond bewildering.

But Jim...Mary Sherman died at home in her apartment. If the LINEAR ACCELERATOR was located

in the Public Health Hospital, how could it have been responsible for her death?

Have you read the reports of her death?

COMMENT ON JACK'S METHODOLOGY

In post #1474, Jack asserted that he is reading all of the new posts, even

though he has said repeatedly that he is not reading those from Judyth.

In post #1479, I identified the location of the linear particle accelerator:

None of it can be known with certainty, but the basic elements are very strongly supported.

It would be a mistake to suppose that every aspect of her story has to be supported to the

same degree as every other. Among the 17 findings that Haslam enumerates, which I have

reiterated above, the most important and best supported concern Judyth's ability to conduct

reseach on cancer, that she was induced to come to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner, that she

met and worked with Mary Sherman, David Ferrie, and Lee Oswald, that Mary was killed by

a massive source of electricity (almost certainly the linear particle accelerator at the Public

Health Hospital), and that Judyth was summarily dismissed by Ochsner after she complained

about the prisoner who was used in a (fatal) experiment conducted without informed consent.

In post #1495, he asks if the accelerator was located in Ferrie's apartment or lab across the

street. Not to put too fine a point on it but, given this post, how can post #1474 be truthful?

Here is a LINEAR PARTICLE ACCELERATOR. Did David Ferrie have his in his apartment

or his laboratory across the street?

Jack

Edited April 22, 2010 by Jack White

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Barb J. wrote:

A major problem with this is that the Kennedy's arrival at Love Field was only televised live

on Dallas/Ft. Worth TV stations.

As a DFW resident, I believe that this statement is not true. Gary Mack would know. A

live hookup in those days would require a special microwave signal hookup and large

bulky studio cameras, which were few back then. The local stations shot the arrival on FILM,

not live video feed. Ask Gary.

The only LIVE feed that weekend, as I recall, was the abortive LHO jail transfer and shooting.

Jack

Hi Jack,

I checked with Gary ... and yes, the arrival was broadcast live in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

Here is Gary's response in full:

Hi Barb,

In response to your question about TV coverage of JFK’s Dallas Love Field arrival, I checked a couple newspapers, but not all of them. From that “refresher” course and information I’ve picked up over the years, here is what I know:

1. WFAA-TV, the ABC affiliate here, did the pool coverage for themselves and any other local TV station that wanted to carry it. Their remote truck can be seen 45 seconds into this home movie recently acquired by The Sixth Floor Museum: http://jfk.org/go/collections/ward-warren-film Atop the truck is one of the two cameras they used and the person describing the events was the late WFAA news director, Bob Walker.

2. The 11-22-63 Dallas Morning News, which was co-owned with WFAA, listed the Kennedy arrival in its TV schedule for the day. Live coverage was to begin at 11:30am.

3. While I cannot prove it from the listings I read, it is my understanding that the other three local commercial stations – KRLD, WBAP and KTVT – decided after the press deadline to show the arrival live.

4. I have a vague memory that one or two other Texas TV stations, perhaps one in Tyler, planned to carry at least one of Kennedy’s speeches that day, though it is highly doubtful an out of town station would also include the Dallas arrival unless there was a speech.

5. WFAA also recorded the Love Field arrival on video tape for later use, as did CBS affiliate KRLD. Those original tapes are preserved at The Sixth Floor Museum. Existence of the KRLD tapes suggests they, too, carried the arrival live.

6. There is no indication in anything I have ever read or learned that any Kennedy appearance in Fort Worth or Dallas was ever shown live or even fed to any of the three networks (ABC, CBS, NBC), so it would be impossible to view those events outside of the Dallas-Fort Worth/North Texas area.

7. There was absolutely no live TV coverage anywhere along the motorcade route. All TV remote trucks are firmly accounted for, and without them there could be no live pictures. WFAA’s truck stayed at Love Field for they planned to show Kennedy’s departure back to Washington. KRLD’s truck was at the Trade Mart for pool coverage of that speech, which all four stations planned to show live. The KTVT truck did the pool coverage of the Fort Worth breakfast speech that morning, with assistance from the WBAP truck. Both vehicles were returning to their Fort Worth studios when the assassination happened.

And just so you know, my 34 years here both in broadcasting and at the Museum have put me in contact with many, many reporters, photographers, engineers and others from all four stations who covered those events. Many are personal friends to this day. Unfortunately, not everything we want to know now was documented at the time.

Gary Mack

P.S. Feel free to pass this along to anyone who wants to know.

So, yes, there was live coverage of the arrival at Love Field in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area .... but no other live coverage along the motorcade route.

This info and the time difference between Dallas and Florida make all 3 versions of Judyth's claims about what she and her co-workers saw on TV that day impossible. I am including those claims, as detailed in my original post, again below ... as well as the link to the Dutch radio interview of Judyth.

Hearing Judyth speak on the Dutch radio program is interesting.

Thanks, Jack .... a good thing to have doub;e checked with Gary, and thanks to Gary too.

From my original post:

Hi Kathy,

After his summer job in the Gulf was over, Judyth and her husband returned to Gainesville, Florida where he was completing his degree. This is when Judyth is purported to have worked as a lab assistant at PenChem. (Fetzer posted some check stubs from PenChem a few days ago.)

The story about the co-workers and what they saw on TV is one of the things that underwent some changes over the years.

1.This from an early draft of her book posted on the net .... in 2006, as I recall:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news. JFK and Jackie had

arrived at Love Field in Dallas. I tried to maintain an outward calm. The

TV programs then were in black and white, but I could imagine that the

roses Jackie Kennedy was [sic] given probably complemented her dress. I

prayed to a God I did not believe in that there would be a bubble top

placed over the limousine. When I saw the President and his wife enter a

vehicle without a bubble top, I felt sick.

A major problem with this is that the Kennedy's arrival at Love Field was only televised live

on Dallas/Ft. Worth TV stations.

2. In her book printed by Trafford, pg 626, it was this:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news, sports and

weather beginning at noon. I saw the news about JFK arriving in Dallas,

trying to maintain outward calm. All the TV programs were then in black

and white, but I could imagine that the roses Jackie Kennedy was

given probably complemented her dress.

The problem with this is that there was no hour long noon news show in Gainesville according to any of the TV stations, as well as someone I was referred to at the university, I contacted a few years ago. Even if there was even a half hour news show at noon in Gainesville, Florida ... that would only be 11am in Dallas ... and the Kennedy's arrived at 11:40am Dallas time. That would be 12:40pm in Gainesville. Not in time for any 1/2 hour noon news show.

3. In 2003,in a Dutch interview originally broadcast in

streaming audio, Judyth said this:

Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had

been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they

all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it

happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening.

The problems with that are obvious.

The complete interview is here .... narrated in Dutch, but Judyth speaks in English, it's just a few seconds under 14 minutes in length. The quote above is from the beginning of the interview:

Link to Judyth's 2003 Dutch Radio interview:

CLICK HERE

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited April 22, 2010 by Barb Junkkarinen

[Dean Hartwell]

Hi Barb,

You quoted yourself from a previous post:

Hi Kathy,

After his summer job in the Gulf was over, Judyth and her husband returned to Gainesville, Florida where he was completing his degree. This is when Judyth is purported to have worked as a lab assistant at PenChem. (Fetzer posted some check stubs from PenChem a few days ago.)

The story about the co-workers and what they saw on TV is one of the things that underwent some changes over the years.

1.This from an early draft of her book posted on the net .... in 2006, as I recall:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news. JFK and Jackie had

arrived at Love Field in Dallas. I tried to maintain an outward calm. The

TV programs then were in black and white, but I could imagine that the

roses Jackie Kennedy was [sic] given probably complemented her dress. I

prayed to a God I did not believe in that there would be a bubble top

placed over the limousine. When I saw the President and his wife enter a

vehicle without a bubble top, I felt sick.

A major problem with this is that the Kennedy's arrival at Love Field was only televised live

on Dallas/Ft. Worth TV stations.

2. In her book printed by Trafford, pg 626, it was this:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news, sports and

weather beginning at noon. I saw the news about JFK arriving in Dallas,

trying to maintain outward calm. All the TV programs were then in black

and white, but I could imagine that the roses Jackie Kennedy was

given probably complemented her dress.

The problem with this is that there was no hour long noon news show in Gainesville according to any of the TV stations, as well as someone I was referred to at the university, I contacted a few years ago. Even if there was even a half hour news show at noon in Gainesville, Florida ... that would only be 11am in Dallas ... and the Kennedy's arrived at 11:40am Dallas time. That would be 12:40pm in Gainesville. Not in time for any 1/2 hour noon news show.

3. In 2003,in a Dutch interview originally broadcast in

streaming audio, Judyth said this:

Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had

been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they

all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it

happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening.

The problems with that are obvious.

The complete interview is here .... narrated in Dutch, but Judyth speaks in English, it's just a few seconds under 14 minutes in length. The quote above is from the beginning of the interview:

Link to Judyth's 2003 Dutch Radio interview:

CLICK HERE

Bests,

Barb :-)

---

Barb,

The statements you cite are, at best, ambiguous. In reading #1 and #2, I could interpret Judyth's comments to refer to the news coverage of the Kennedys' arrival at Love Field. Simply put, she may have spoken about watching the arrival some time later when the news station in Florida replayed the event.

As for #3, I played the part of the clip you have provided and again believe her statement could refer to the playing of events at a later time. This would be a better choice because it is widely known that no one showed the assassination live.

I have trouble reading or hearing any of these statements as lies or wilful distortions.

Dean

[Josiah Thompson]

So- it comes down to this. after a couple of months of bluster and several lost friendships and much bragging about your academic credentials you are unable to offer any evidence whatsoever to support a point you yourself indicated was one of the "best supported" elements of judyth's story. i am sorry, sir, but that is your failing and not mine.

Right on target, Kevin. But Fetzer's refusal to come up with any evidence for the claim you asked him about is only the April version of what we saw back in March.

I don't know if you caught it. Back in March, Fetzer was crowing for about a week that some guy in Texas had shot a bunch of windshields with a rifle and the resulting windshield damage looked just like Fetzer's "spiral nebula." Jerry Logan kept asking him to come up with evidence for this since windshields hit with bullets look nothing at all like the socalled "spiral nebula." Fetzer finally came up with a photo that proved the opposite of what he said. It showed what we all knew. A bullet fired through a windshield produces obvious shattering of the glass... nothing at all like Fetzer's "nebula."

Same old... same old.

Josiah Thompson

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Hi Barb,

You quoted yourself from a previous post:

Hi Kathy,

After his summer job in the Gulf was over, Judyth and her husband returned to Gainesville, Florida where he was completing his degree. This is when Judyth is purported to have worked as a lab assistant at PenChem. (Fetzer posted some check stubs from PenChem a few days ago.)

The story about the co-workers and what they saw on TV is one of the things that underwent some changes over the years.

1.This from an early draft of her book posted on the net .... in 2006, as I recall:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news. JFK and Jackie had

arrived at Love Field in Dallas. I tried to maintain an outward calm. The

TV programs then were in black and white, but I could imagine that the

roses Jackie Kennedy was [sic] given probably complemented her dress. I

prayed to a God I did not believe in that there would be a bubble top

placed over the limousine. When I saw the President and his wife enter a

vehicle without a bubble top, I felt sick.

A major problem with this is that the Kennedy's arrival at Love Field was only televised live

on Dallas/Ft. Worth TV stations.

2. In her book printed by Trafford, pg 626, it was this:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news, sports and

weather beginning at noon. I saw the news about JFK arriving in Dallas,

trying to maintain outward calm. All the TV programs were then in black

and white, but I could imagine that the roses Jackie Kennedy was

given probably complemented her dress.

The problem with this is that there was no hour long noon news show in Gainesville according to any of the TV stations, as well as someone I was referred to at the university, I contacted a few years ago. Even if there was even a half hour news show at noon in Gainesville, Florida ... that would only be 11am in Dallas ... and the Kennedy's arrived at 11:40am Dallas time. That would be 12:40pm in Gainesville. Not in time for any 1/2 hour noon news show.

3. In 2003,in a Dutch interview originally broadcast in

streaming audio, Judyth said this:

Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had

been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they

all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it

happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening.

The problems with that are obvious.

The complete interview is here .... narrated in Dutch, but Judyth speaks in English, it's just a few seconds under 14 minutes in length. The quote above is from the beginning of the interview:

Link to Judyth's 2003 Dutch Radio interview:

CLICK HERE

Bests,

Barb :-)

---

Barb,

The statements you cite are, at best, ambiguous. In reading #1 and #2, I could interpret Judyth's comments to refer to the news coverage of the Kennedys' arrival at Love Field. Simply put, she may have spoken about watching the arrival some time later when the news station in Florida replayed the event.

As for #3, I played the part of the clip you have provided and again believe her statement could refer to the playing of events at a later time. This would be a better choice because it is widely known that no one showed the assassination live. She tried to maintain outward calm. She knew what was going to happen. They gathered chairs around to watch the assassination.

I have trouble reading or hearing any of these statements as lies or wilful distortions.

Dean

Hi Dean,

I don't think the statements are either ambiguous or open to interpretation. It was a Friday. She was at work. She said it was the noon news.

She said she watched them get into the open limo ... and felt sick.

As for #3, we have no way of knowing what Judyth knew or did not know about any broadcasts of the assassination. We can clearly hear what she said ... which I quoted.

Speaking about that after the fact makes no sense ... by then, everyone who gathered chairs around to watch the assassination knew what was

going to happen. :-) She says she "saw it happen" on TV. And that, as we know, was just not possible.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Guest John Gillespie]

Hi Barb,

You quoted yourself from a previous post:

Hi Kathy,

After his summer job in the Gulf was over, Judyth and her husband returned to Gainesville, Florida where he was completing his degree. This is when Judyth is purported to have worked as a lab assistant at PenChem. (Fetzer posted some check stubs from PenChem a few days ago.)

The story about the co-workers and what they saw on TV is one of the things that underwent some changes over the years.

1.This from an early draft of her book posted on the net .... in 2006, as I recall:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news. JFK and Jackie had

arrived at Love Field in Dallas. I tried to maintain an outward calm. The

TV programs then were in black and white, but I could imagine that the

roses Jackie Kennedy was [sic] given probably complemented her dress. I

prayed to a God I did not believe in that there would be a bubble top

placed over the limousine. When I saw the President and his wife enter a

vehicle without a bubble top, I felt sick.

A major problem with this is that the Kennedy's arrival at Love Field was only televised live

on Dallas/Ft. Worth TV stations.

2. In her book printed by Trafford, pg 626, it was this:

A television set perched over our heads showed the news, sports and

weather beginning at noon. I saw the news about JFK arriving in Dallas,

trying to maintain outward calm. All the TV programs were then in black

and white, but I could imagine that the roses Jackie Kennedy was

given probably complemented her dress.

The problem with this is that there was no hour long noon news show in Gainesville according to any of the TV stations, as well as someone I was referred to at the university, I contacted a few years ago. Even if there was even a half hour news show at noon in Gainesville, Florida ... that would only be 11am in Dallas ... and the Kennedy's arrived at 11:40am Dallas time. That would be 12:40pm in Gainesville. Not in time for any 1/2 hour noon news show.

3. In 2003,in a Dutch interview originally broadcast in

streaming audio, Judyth said this:

Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had

been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they

all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it

happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening.

The problems with that are obvious.

The complete interview is here .... narrated in Dutch, but Judyth speaks in English, it's just a few seconds under 14 minutes in length. The quote above is from the beginning of the interview:

Link to Judyth's 2003 Dutch Radio interview:

CLICK HERE

Bests,

Barb :-)

---

Barb,

The statements you cite are, at best, ambiguous. In reading #1 and #2, I could interpret Judyth's comments to refer to the news coverage of the Kennedys' arrival at Love Field. Simply put, she may have spoken about watching the arrival some time later when the news station in Florida replayed the event.

As for #3, I played the part of the clip you have provided and again believe her statement could refer to the playing of events at a later time. This would be a better choice because it is widely known that no one showed the assassination live. She tried to maintain outward calm. She knew what was going to happen. They gathered chairs around to watch the assassination.

I have trouble reading or hearing any of these statements as lies or wilful distortions.

Dean

Hi Dean,

I don't think the statements are either ambiguous or open to interpretation. It was a Friday. She was at work. She said it was the noon news.

She said she watched them get into the open limo ... and felt sick.

As for #3, we have no way of knowing what Judyth knew or did not know about any broadcasts of the assassination. We can clearly hear what she said ... which I quoted.

Speaking about that after the fact makes no sense ... by then, everyone who gathered chairs around to watch the assassination knew what was

going to happen. :-) She says she "saw it happen" on TV. And that, as we know, was just not possible.

Bests,

Barb :-)

___________________________________________________________

There are bigger fish to fry, folks. This is much like Bush describing how he saw video of Flight #11 hit the North Tower on 911. It is not that meaningful, though, in terms of looking for something Jungian. Can you say "ghost writer?" Clearly, her publishing handlers were playing fast and loose to get an emotional edge going. Gee, can't wait to see the movie.

JG

[Guest John Gillespie]

This, I hope, will be my FINAL posting on this subject. Someone or some agency

has designed the JVB affair TO DIVIDE RESEARCHERS. The have succeeded beyond

their expectations.

Let us all concede for a moment EVERY STATEMENT made by JVB is TRUE. What are

we left with which might advance the solution to the JFK case???

1. This teen science student was recruited by the CIA to assist David Ferrie in designing

a means of killing Fidel Castro using cancer cells.

2. This teen girl was introduced into high level anti-Castro Cuban persons in New Orleans,

including Carlos Marcello, Guy Bannister, Clay Shaw, Dr. Oschner and others.

3. This married teen girl was assisted by these anti-Castro persons on a few days notice

to become involved in a romance with a CIA asset who had been steered into employment

at a CIA asset company.

4. What agency recruits high school students to devise cancer infections to be used in

assassination attempts? What agency uses this student, a strange ex-pilot, a famed

doctor and medical researcher who is strangely murdered to devise cancer strains to

be delivered to Cuba to kill Castro?

5. Much later, this teen girl learned that her lover was involved in a plot to kill the president

but instead of reporting this plot, she aids and abets her lover's involvement.

Now where have we heard all of this before? Who or what agency has been heavily

involved in promoting the Cuban connection as the perpetrators of the assassination?

The answer is clear.

I hope this is my final word.

Carry on.

Jack

___________________________________________________---

I believe the word 'succinct' comes to mind (you spoilsport, you).

JG

[Greg Burnham]

GJ [Good job] JG.

[John Simkin]

This, I hope, will be my FINAL posting on this subject. Someone or some agency

has designed the JVB affair TO DIVIDE RESEARCHERS. The have succeeded beyond

their expectations.

Let us all concede for a moment EVERY STATEMENT made by JVB is TRUE. What are

we left with which might advance the solution to the JFK case???

1. This teen science student was recruited by the CIA to assist David Ferrie in designing

a means of killing Fidel Castro using cancer cells.

2. This teen girl was introduced into high level anti-Castro Cuban persons in New Orleans,

including Carlos Marcello, Guy Bannister, Clay Shaw, Dr. Oschner and others.

3. This married teen girl was assisted by these anti-Castro persons on a few days notice

to become involved in a romance with a CIA asset who had been steered into employment

at a CIA asset company.

4. What agency recruits high school students to devise cancer infections to be used in

assassination attempts? What agency uses this student, a strange ex-pilot, a famed

doctor and medical researcher who is strangely murdered to devise cancer strains to

be delivered to Cuba to kill Castro?

5. Much later, this teen girl learned that her lover was involved in a plot to kill the president

but instead of reporting this plot, she aids and abets her lover's involvement.

Now where have we heard all of this before? Who or what agency has been heavily

involved in promoting the Cuban connection as the perpetrators of the assassination?

The answer is clear.

I hope this is my final word.

Carry on.

Jack

Jack, I have been very impressed with your postings on this thread.

[Pat Speer]

JIM REPLIES TO DAVID LIFTON ABOUT THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE IN RELATION TO ZAPRUDER FAKERY

Just for the record, I have no problem with what you are saying here. What I was referring to was the use of the combination of these findings--the patch to the back of the X-ray, the missing mass at the right-front, the LIFE Magazine caption, the TV appearance of Abraham Zapruder, and the addition of the "blob" to the images in the film--for the purpose of providing mutually-reinforcing but fabricated "evidence" to support the thesis that the shooter was above and behind. It was putting these pieces together in the fashion that I presented them in "Zapruder JFK Film impeached by Moorman JFK Polaroid" to explain how they intended to create the impression that he had been hit in the head by a bullet from above and behind, when the actual event blew his brains to the left and to the rear, for which I was claiming credit (and, of course, the discovery that the blow out is actually visible in frame 374). It was only the way I put all of these pieces together to discern exactly how they were going to try to get away with it for which I meant to assert discovery--which is hard to dispute, since, to the best of my knowledge, no one else (including you and David Mantik) has made the point about the missing mass from the right-front of the lateral-cranial and the anterior-posterior X-rays. Correct me if I am wrong, but even Gary Aguilar, on the occasion of our first meeting, told me that the APPEARANCE of missing mass was an effect of OVEREXPOSURE and was not genuine. I thought that was a rather odd thing to say to me on our first meeting, but it stuck with me and I now believe not only that he was wrong but that the missing mass was a crucial ingredient in the medical cover-up that could be used to support what is seen in the film. We know it was not true, of course, from Jackie's testimony and virtually every other report about the appearance of his face where, as Jackie put it, from the front, he looked just fine (but that she had had a terrible time trying to hold his brains and skull together at the rear of his head). My admiration for your and David's work on the medical evidence, which has now been reinforced by Doug Horne, knows no bounds. But, so far as I am aware, I was the first to put all of these pieces of the puzzle together in the article that I cite, where, even today, David has not told me that he agrees with me about that missing mass I discern in the X-rays. I am glad to have you post about this here, a "collateral benefit" of our differences about Judyth and what happened in New Orleans. Consider what I said as I meant it to be understood and see if you don't agree with me about it.

A couple of quick points...

1. Jim, you have given me a ton of crud over the years for daring to second-guess Dr. Mantik, and here you are doing it yourself.

2. I'm pretty sure that Mantik has written about the missing mass in the forehead region of the lateral X-ray, and has concluded that the brain sloshed back in the skull when Kennedy was placed on his back for the X-ray, leaving the frontal area empty.

3. In my chapter on the X-rays I present an X-ray I spotted in The American Journal of Roentgenology. It shows the A-P X-ray of a man with an intact skull, whose brain was pulpified by a number of shots from a handgun. It's as black as the right side of Kennedy's X-ray.

4. A quick look at Mantik's white patch demonstrates that it s is not on the back of the head, but on the right side of the head, and does not encompass the occipital region on the back of the head where most CTs believe the bullet exited. Your claim of having put it all together is therefore mistaken.

5. I believe in one of your posts you repeated something you have said before--that Jackie Kennedy said she had to hold the back of her husband's head on. This is just not true. She said it was the TOP of his head she had to hold on, and not the back.

First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy sat directly next to the President. (11-29-63 interview with Theodore White, notes released 5-26-95) “They were gunning the motorcycles; there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arm and saying no no nononono, with his fist beating—then Jack turned and I turned—all I remember was a blue gray building up ahead, then Jack turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out, I could see a piece of his skull coming off; it was flesh colored not white—he was holding out his hand—and I can see this perfectly clean piece detaching itself from his head; then he slumped in my lap.” (When describing the immediate aftermath of the shots) "All the ride to the hospital, I kept bending over him saying, "Jack, Jack, can you hear me, I love you, Jack." I kept holding the top of his head down trying to keep the..." (When describing her husband's condition upon arrival at the hospital) "From here down"--and here she made a gesture indicating her husband's forehead--"his head was so beautiful. I'd tried to hold the top of his head down, maybe I could keep it in...I knew he was dead."

(6-5-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 5H178-181, with words deleted from the Warren Commission's transcript only to be re-discovered by Harold Weisberg and Mark Sobel presented in bold) “the car was very slow and there weren’t very many people around…I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn’t seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, “Oh, no, no, no”…I was looking this way, to the left, and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. And just as I turned to look at him, I could see a piece of his skull sort of wedge-shaped, like that, and I remember that it was flesh colored with little ridges at the top. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything. And then he sort of did this (indicating), put his hand to his forehead and fell in my lap. And then I just remember falling on him and saying, “Oh no, no, no,” I mean, “Oh my God, they have shot my husband.” And “I love you, Jack,” I remember I was shouting. And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity. You know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. But I don't remember that at all." (When asked if she remembered Secret Service Agent Clint Hill's climbing onto the limo after she climbed out the back.) "I don't remember anything. I was just down like that. And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital," or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat. But someone yelling. I was just down and holding him. I was trying to hold his hair on. But from the front there was nothing. I suppose there must have been. But from the back you could see, you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on.” (When asked how many shots were fired) “Well there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed like a stuck pig. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this (indicating with hand at neck). He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.”

Now...back to Judyth...

Edited April 23, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

POSTSCRIPT: SOME REPLIES TO THOSE WHO HAVE CONTINUED TO POST

NOTE: It has come as no surprise to me that Josiah Thompson would seize this opportunity

to take a cheap shot when I am attempting to end this thread in the expectation I would not

respond. This is derived from the thread, "A shot fired through the front of the windshield",

which was initiated by Doug Weldon. True to form, Josiah distorts the evidence obtained by

Jim Lewis, who has traveled through the South firing through windshields and has found that

the bullets not only create a spiral nebula-like image in the glass (corresponding to that seen

in the Altens photo) but also the sound of a firecracker. I published a photo Jim sent me in

THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX (2003) on page 436, which is reproduced (but not well)

in posts #472 and #473, which, in my opinion, resembles the spiral nebula-like image seen

in the Altgens photograph. Contrary to this post, the evidence supports my position, not his.

More surprising is that John Simkin would involve himself in this thread for the third or the

fourth time. I was just a bit taken aback by his last intervention, in which he stated--quite

categorically!--that Gerry Hemming is a disinformation agent. Since Hemming has threads

that are archived on this forum and characterizations like that one are supposed to violate

forum rules, I suppose he should have been censored by his own moderators. Others who

know vastly more about the assassination, such as James Richards and Noel Twyman, for

example, have found Hemming to be extremely reliable. The longest chapter in BLOODY

TREASON (1998), for example, is devoted to Hemming. If Hemming had disputed Judyth's

authenticity rather than endorsed it, I imagine he (Simkin) would have said nothing. That

he praises Jack's posts on this forum speaks volumes about his knowledge of this thread.

The post from Pat Speer is more interesting. http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/jbkwc.html

includes three fragments of Jackie's testimony including that, "I was trying to hold his hair

on. From the front there was nothing --- I suppose there must have been. But from the

back you could see, you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on." My

depiction of what she is saying, I would suggest, is far more accurate than yours, where

she is trying to hold the skull and brains at the back of his head together. I know that

you accept the Groden color photos as authentic and, I see now, believe that the dark

area at the right-front of the anterior-posterior X-ray only shows missing brains but not

missing bone. My position is quite different on both counts, as I explain (with images)

on pages 15 and 25 of HOAX. The Groden photos are fake; the massive blow-out was

at the back of his head, not the top; and the X-ray shows missing bone, not just absent

brain, which demonstrates that my argument goes beyond what others have said before.

So Kevin Greenlee wants to reprise the evidence, which I consider to be a bit much. The

longest thread in forum history is chock full of evidence, arguments, and proof that Judyth

is the person she claims to be. Josiah, who has no interest in this question but only takes

every opportunity to cast aspersions upon me, chimes in with, "Right on target, Kevin. But

Fetzer's refusal to come up with any evidence for the claim you asked him about is only the

April version of what we saw back in March." As we have already seen, however, Josiah is

distorting the evidence, essentially misquoting out of context. The most that could be said

is that, as Jerry Logan observed in post #472, it would be better to have sharper images.

I agree with that and, if I can track him down, I will ask Jim if he can provide some. But

that is a far cry from claiming that a bullet fired through a windshield produces "obvious

shattering of the glass... nothing at all like Fetzer's 'nebula', which is simply false but true

to form. Since proof of Judyth's authenticity abounds, I conclude with more from Haslam.

ED HASLAM ON THE THREE KEY QUESTIONS

MARY, FARRIE, & THE MONKEY VIRUS The Witness / Chapter 17 By Edward Haslam

http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2010/04/ed...rys-monkey.html

It’s time to get to the core questions about Judyth Vary Baker. I consider the three most important questions to be:

1. Is “this Judyth” the real Judyth Vary Baker from Bradenton, Florida? Or is she the impostor?

2. Did Judyth know Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in 1963? If she does not have reasonable proof to support this claim, then there is little point in pondering her story.

3. Was Judyth trained to handle cancer-causing viruses before she went to New Orleans in 1963? If 1 and 2 above are true, then this point would qualify her as a suspect for “the technician” that I wrote about in “The Pandemic” chapter.

If the answers to all three questions are “yes,” then we need to pay attention to what Judyth has to say, even if it conflicts with both the official and the unofficial stories concerning Oswald and his role (whatever it was) in the assassination of JFK. Even if it disagrees with the self-appointed Oswald experts. And even if it disagrees with some of the things I originally said in this book. Let’s tackle these questions right now - one at a time.

1. Is she the real Judyth Vary Baker from Bradenton, Florida?

Judyth had shown me a collection of newspaper articles when we met in 2001. Several had photos of her. Most of the articles were published in The Bradenton Herald, one of the local newspapers in the Bradenton, Florida.

A year later, in February 2002, I started working for The Bradenton Herald. My role was to handle their market research materials, but my position gave me access to their news library and their microfilm collection. This microfilm collection had been copied about 10 years earlier, and the copy had been given to the Bradenton Public Library. The public could see the microfilm collection at the public library, but the original microfilm was kept in the news department’s research library on the upper floor of The Bradenton Herald and was not open to the public. No one could have anticipated that I would start working for The Bradenton Herald and would have access to their original microfilm collection. If I could find Judyth’s newspaper articles there in the off-limits microfilm collection, I could settle the “forgeries” issue once-and-for-all. I got Judyth to send me a list of publication dates for the articles she had.

Yes, I found all of The Bradenton Herald newspaper articles that Judyth had shown me in the microfilm library of The Bradenton Herald. She had also shown me two other newspaper articles which I will be discussing later in this chapter.

So the answer to our first question is “Yes, she is definitely the real Judyth Vary Baker from Bradenton, Florida.” Her maiden name was Judyth Anne Vary, and she was frequently referred to as Judy in the press of the day. She is easy to recognize in the photos. Bradenton was proud of her. “Judy” was going to find the cure for cancer.[5] She presents copious evidence to support all of this in her book.[6]

2. Did Judyth know Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans in 1963?

It might help the reader to know there has never been any dispute over the fact that the person that the press has referred to as Lee Harvey Oswald worked at a coffee company in New Orleans in the summer of 1963. This is reported by the Warren Commission and acknowledged throughout the JFK assassination research community. In fact, I have never heard anyone dispute it. Beyond that, I personally heard Boatner Reily, later the president of that same coffee company, state that they (the Wm. B. Reily Coffee Company) had turned over their employment records of Lee Harvey Oswald to the U.S. Government immediately after the assassination. What is less clear to the casual reader is whether Lee Oswald worked for the Standard Coffee Company or for the Wm. B. Reilly Coffee Company, since the names differ on various documents. Both companies were owned and operated by William B. Reily and his family, so the difference in the names is not important. Lee Oswald worked for Reily. So did Judyth Vary Baker.

Here is her W2 tax form submitted by Wm. B. Reily & Co. to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service which proves that she did.

This document was provided to me directly by Judyth Vary Baker who scanned it from the original. I accept it as authentic.[7] I have blocked out the last four digits of her Social Security number to protect her privacy. I did, however, compare that social security number with a variety of other documents which Judyth provided to me, such as her college transcripts, and I assure the reader that the numbers match.

The name on the document is Judyth Anne Baker. The person we now know as Judyth Vary Baker was known as Judyth Anne Vary until she married Robert Baker and became Judyth Anne Baker in 1963. Back then it was not common for women to incorporate their maiden names into their married names.

W2 forms are mailed out in January of the following year - in this case, in January 1964 for the 1963 tax year. The address on the form shows where the form was mailed, not where the person lived during their employment. Judyth left New Orleans in September 1963 after her employment with Reily ended and returned to Florida. The Ft. Walton address on Judyth’s W2 form was her husband’s family’s residence which he used as his official address while attending the University of Florida in Gainesville.

The amount of money shown on the W2 form is consistent with Judyth’s pay stubs from Reily, which I also have copies of. It should be emphasized that Judyth was referred to Reily by the same employment agency that referred Lee Oswald and that she started work on the same day. Judyth worked directly for Reily’s Vice–President William I. Monaghan, an ex-FBI agent who later testified to the Warren Commission about Oswald. But Monaghan did not mention Judyth to the Warren Commission nor did he mention that another person was hired on the same day that Oswald was hired.

A simple gumshoe investigation a murder suspect would have started with friends and associates, particularly at the place of employment. A gumshoe investigation of Oswald would have checked out Reily Coffee, found Judyth, and realized that she was close to Oswald. They started on the same day and arrived at work together each morning, though they frequently clocked in at different times, due to Lee’s other activities in the neighborhood. We even find Judyth’s initials on Lee’s timecards. Figuring out their connection would not have been difficult. Consider these obvious points. Neither Lee nor Judyth owned a car. Reily Coffee was located on Magazine Street. Both Judyth and Lee lived along the Magazine Street bus route and rode the bus to work. Day after day, Lee would get on the bus at the 4900 block of Magazine. Several blocks later Judyth would get on at the corner of Marengo Street and sit next to Lee. Bus drivers recognize their regular customers. The bus driver could have easily confirmed that Judyth and Lee sat together every morning, read the newspaper, and talked - and that they got off the bus together near the Reily Coffee Company. This would not have been difficult for an investigator to sort out.[8]

Who was this young woman who talked to the accused assassin of the President on a daily basis? What did she know about him? What did she know about the assassination? Did she have prior knowledge? These are good questions, and a competent investigator would have asked them. So why were they not asked?

Did the Warren Commission send in a gumshoe to investigate Oswald at Reily? No, they asked the “ex-FBI” agent that hired Oswald about him.[9] And that ex-FBI agent did not mention that his own secretary, whom he also hired, started on the same day and arrived at his front door with Oswald every morning. How convenient! This raises the question: Did Monaghan knowingly withhold information from the Warren Commission? If he did, was he instructed to do so? And by whom? Was Judyth being protected in order to protect the bio-weapon project and the people behind it?

Several years after the Warren Commission “investigation,” the investigators working for New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison tracked down another young woman named Anna Lewis, a waitress who worked at Thompson’s Restaurant - a favorite gathering spot for the anti-Castro crowd around Lafayette Square in downtown New Orleans. At the time, Anna was married to David Lewis, who had worked for another “ex-FBI” agent Guy Banister. Today we have video testimony from Anna Lewis recorded in 2003 and made available on the internet by Dutch JFK researcher Wim Dankbaar. In this interview, Anna clearly states that she knew Lee Oswald and that Oswald was a regular customer at Thompson’s in 1963. Further, she states that she and her husband socialized with Lee and Judyth together on a number of occasions. More importantly Anna Lewis admits that she lied to District Attorney Garrison and his investigators when they asked her about Oswald. Had Anna Lewis told Garrison the truth, Garrison could have easily tracked down Judyth. Garrison was already suspicious of Ochsner and his role in the media exposure of Oswald. If Garrison had had access to Judyth, and if Judyth told Garrison what she now tells us--that she and Lee were working on a biological weapon project under the direction of Dr. Alton Ochsner--Garrison’s investigation (and his whole life) might have turned out very differently. But she didn’t. Anna Lewis lied to Garrison because she was afraid. Meanwhile, Judyth hid silently because she was afraid. Two critical pieces of evidence were unavailable to the American people and their elected representatives (like Garrison) at the time they were pondering who killed their President. Now that we know differently, is it time to reconsider our history?

3. Was Judyth trained to handle cancer viruses before going to New Orleans?

The short answer is “yes,” and the evidence to support this is abundant. Here is a photo taken by the Herald-Tribune (a newspaper in the Bradenton area) showing Judyth in her cancer lab with her mice during high school. The numerous newspaper articles published in The Bradenton Herald tell a similar tale. Judyth was a star science student who wanted to find a cure for cancer. They wanted her to succeed. After creating lung cancer in her mice faster than anyone known to medical science, Judyth was given introductions, financing, opportunities, chemicals, tuition, and training. Her training was world-class.

I also know a man in Bradenton who remembers Judyth from high school. He was in an independent-study science class with Judyth and saw her on a regular basis during their senior year in high school. His comments to me are worth noting. He said “If you’re telling me that Judyth wound up in some secret lab doing some heavy duty experiments, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. She was always very intense and took herself very seriously.”

The next newspaper article that I would like to discuss was published in upstate New York in The Buffalo Courier-Express, which reported on the cancer research training program that Judyth attended at the Roswell Park Cancer Center.

There is a detail in the text of this article that I think is equally important. It’s a quote from Dr. Edwin Mirand who ran the program Judyth attended.

Dr. Mirand was half of the “Grace and Mirand” medical research team that wrote “Human Susceptibility to a Simian Tumor Virus,” an article published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Science in 1963.

I referred to this same article in every edition of my book since 1995. It has been listed in the bibliography the entire time.

In other words, this is proof that in 1961, Judyth personally knew and studied under the nation’s leading experts in cancer-causing monkey viruses which I wrote about.

And she did so 34 years before I published my book.

This article contradicts that notion that Judyth read my book and wrote herself into it. She did not. The evidence indicates that she was trained to handle cancer-causing viruses, lived in New Orleans, and knew Lee Oswald decades earlier.

This may be intoxicating news for those concerned about Judyth’s credibility and what she can tell us about Lee Oswald, but it is sobering to those of us worried about the fate of the biological weapon. This means that Judyth Vary Baker really did have the technical skills to handle the cancer-causing monkey viruses that might be used to create a biological weapon. Yes, Judyth Vary Baker had the technical qualifications to be “the technician” that did “the bench work” in the Ferrie-Sherman medical laboratory. Hearing Judyth admit that as a 19-year old she assisted Lee Harvey Oswald, David Ferrie, Dr. Mary Sherman, and Dr. Alton Ochsner in their efforts to develop a biological weapon is… a brain-buster! I guess I have my witness.

So- it comes down to this. after a couple of months of bluster and several lost friendships and much bragging about your academic credentials you are unable to offer any evidence whatsoever to support a point you yourself indicated was one of the "best supported" elements of judyth's story. i am sorry, sir, but that is your failing and not mine.

Right on target, Kevin. But Fetzer's refusal to come up with any evidence for the claim you asked him about is only the April version of what we saw back in March.

I don't know if you caught it. Back in March, Fetzer was crowing for about a week that some guy in Texas had shot a bunch of windshields with a rifle and the resulting windshield damage looked just like Fetzer's "spiral nebula." Jerry Logan kept asking him to come up with evidence for this since windshields hit with bullets look nothing at all like the socalled "spiral nebula." Fetzer finally came up with a photo that proved the opposite of what he said. It showed what we all knew. A bullet fired through a windshield produces obvious shattering of the glass... nothing at all like Fetzer's "nebula."

Same old... same old.

Josiah Thompson

Edited April 25, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Kevin Greenlee]

Mr. Fetzer-

to be clear, i was not asking for an "instant replay" or "reprise" of anything that had already appeared in this thread. i was asking for something completely new and fresh- actual evidence. your utter inability to provide it not only reveals much about what sort of an empty exercise this whole "judyth" business is but it is also a far more devastating critique of your credibility than anything josiah thompson has ever written about you.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

"Actual evidence"? Ed Haslam, who grew up in New Orleans and even sat on Mary Sherman's lap as a child, has done the most research on the cancer project, Ochsner, Sherman, Ferrie, Oswald, and Vary. I would like to assume that you have his book, DR. MARY'S MONKEY, which is chock full of documents, photographs, and references. Ed is extremely meticulous, very painstaking and thorough and it is excellent work. Anyone who simply scans through this thread can see that there are massive quantities of evidence, not only supporting Judyth's story but critiquing Armstrong's theory of HARVEY & LEE. A more fruitful use of your time might be to pursue the "index" error, the mistaken datd of the creation of the Warren Commission, and the fantastic claim that Lillian Murret paid for "Lee"'s dental visit. Apart from asking for another round, which is at least faintly ridiculous when ME & LEE is about to appear (since I have no doubt that its publication will initiate "another round" with more documentation and elaboration, even about events that were not discussed here), I can't see what you have contributed here. Your tactics, on the other hand, are obvious. Under the circumstances, your claim that my lack of enthusiasm for your suggestion amounts to a "sweeping critique of (my) credibility" is so stunningly arrogant and so massively undermined by this entire thread, my YouTube interviews and blogs about Judyth and Ed that I don't think anyone beside Josiah Thompson is going to be impressed. Indeed, you would appear to be a graduate of Tink Thompson's School of Obfuscation and Dissembling. My reasons for declining your absurd invitation are so reasonable, given the totality of circumstances, that it is becoming all too apparent that your purpose in being here has not been to study the issues but to position yourself to make a gesture of this kind, which is supposed to harm me. Well, I don't think it's going to work. No one who has studied this thread or my other efforts is going to buy it. Judyth's story, at its core, appears to be faultless, as many others besides me, including Nigel Turner, Ed Haslam, Jim Marrs, Wim Dankbaar, Howard Platzman, Dean Hartman, "60 Minutes", and many more, have concluded as well. You may not like it, but there it is. Study the evidence. Read Ed's book. Pick up ME & LEE. Then we can do it again!

Mr. Fetzer-

to be clear, i was not asking for an "instant replay" or "reprise" of anything that had already appeared in this thread. i was asking for something completely new and fresh- actual evidence. your utter inability to provide it not only reveals much about what sort of an empty exercise this whole "judyth" business is but it is also a far more devastating critique of your credibility than anything josiah thompson has ever written about you.

Edited April 25, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

Now that Jim concedes that the JVB thread has run its course (in my opinion gaining no new converts),

I hope that Jim will return his attention to the study of 911 and Scholars for Truth. He has few peers in

organizing the 911 HOAX evidence, which is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than the tales of this poor woman,

whether or not her stories are truth or fiction.

Jack