Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Greg Burnham]

Jim,

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I've already replied to the points in your above post. However, the specific part what your psyops friend said above [emphasis added to pertinent parts]:

"...The initial decision maker would probably have to have been central to the JFK Assassination coverup and carry a great deal of absolute caesarian power and "with prejudice" authority. This key person or decision maker would perhaps have something personal to lose if this certain part of Judyth's story ever comes out and is exposed to international public scrutiny and thousands of researchers who have great resources and extensive investigative skills. One possibility is that perhaps a major investment this person or group was involved in and is still involved in would be directly jeapardized if that certain part of Judyth's story received too much attention. The key would be to find what this investment is in.

Would you put the following questions to him?

If you are saying that it is your belief that the "initial or key decision maker or group" possibly has something to "personally lose" if that certain (yet to be identified) part of Judyth's story comes out that could jeopardize current investments (for example), then is it important to identify which part of her story (since there is really so much) could pose such a threat? Do you believe it possible that Judyth's claims regarding LHO and the JFK assassination may actually play into their hands as it serves as a distraction from the actual, current threatening information? Does her threat level (on the real issues of which they are possibly concerned, ie AIDS, cancer, etc) decrease as a function of her losing credibility through the LHO aspect? In other words, why don't they target her "other claims"? Could it be because she herself is providing a much easier target for them to hit (LHO relationship) in turn diverting attention from that which they fear will be revealed if scrutinized?

Thanks, Jim.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[John Dolva]

Is ''a great deal of absolute'' a bit of an oxymoron?

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS ABOUT LIFTON'S ILLEGAL TAPE RECORDING

NOTE: This causes me more distress than I can say about my good

friend, David Lifton. I wish none of this had happened. It grieves me.

And Jack maintains that there is nothing new to be learned from Judyth!

JUDYTH REPLIES:

WE MUST BEIEVE THAT DAVID LIFTON, WHO PLACED A STORY SAYING I KNEW OSAMA

AND LEARNED HOW TO FLY PLANES BUT NOT TO LAND THEM ON THE INTERNET, NOT LONG

AFTER NINE-ELEVEN--MAKING ME THE TARGET OF WEIRDOS AND PARANOIDS WHO THEN

HARRASSED ME--WILL GIVE YOU A TRUE RECKONING OF WHAT WAS ON THE TAPE, EVEN

THOUGH HE SPENT A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE INTERVIEW TIME CONCERNED ABOUT

HOW "60 MNUTES" TREATED ME, IF I HAD FIRST CLASS TRANSPORTATION, FOR EXAMPLE.

WHEN I TOLD "60 MINUTES", THE NEXT TME THEY FLEW ME TO NEW YORK, I WENT FIRST

CLASS.

LIFTON INTERVIEWED RACHEL OSWALD, PROMISING HE WOULD HELP HER FINANCIALLY,

GOT THE INTERVIEW WHILE THE GIRL WAS WORKING AS A WAITRESS WORKING HER

WAY THROUGH COLLEGE, THEN SOLD HIS STORY FOR $$$$$ BUT GAVE HER NARY A DIME.

THIS GOOD RESEARCHER TALKED TO ME ONCE ON THE PHONE, ILLEGALLY TAPING THE

CONVERSATION WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE, WHICH IS A FELONY IN CALIFORNIA. I WILL

NOW PROCEED TO RESPOND TO WHAT IS BELOW:

Scroll down to the caps in bold to see my replies. JVB

(2) JUDYTH TALKES ABOUT DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS

LEE TOLD ME THAT DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS WAS THE ONE WHO MASTERMINDED MUCH OF

THE ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY. HE TOLD ME THAT PHILLIPS AND OTHERS

WOULD BE PRESENT TO WATCH JFK GO DOWN. ADDITIONAL DETAILS ARE IN THE BOOK.

An excerpt from David Lifton's conversation with Judyth.

On the question of whether Lee every (sic) met with David Atlee Phillips and whether

Lee knew Phillips by his real name; and the question of whether other employees

at Reily knew Phillips by either or both names ("Bishop" or Phillips), here's what

Judyth told me on March 4, 2000:

QUOTE ON: (FROM LIFTON'S ILLEGAL FELONIOUS TAPE: YOU MUST TAKE HIS WORD FOR

ITS ACCURACY...THE SAME PERSON WHO POSTED THAT I SAID I DID CANCER RESEARCH

INSIDE A COFFEE COMPANY...A JOKE, BUT PEOPLE TOOK IT SERIOUSLY...HIS WHOLE

APPROACH WAS TO MAKE A JOKE OF MY IDENTITY AS A WITNESS. HE NEVER MET ME.

REMEMBER THAT. HIS BIOGRAPHY ON LEE NEVER PUBLISHED. REMEMBER THAT, TOO.

JVB: What I simply want to do. . I want you to know that [Oswald] is an

innocent man; this is a man who had a chance to get out of this thing, and

he stuck it out. OK? He stuck it out. Of course, he wanted to get out

alive, and all that, but that is not the point, but he, [starts to get upset] he

knew that; [pause, starts to cry--dsl] he knew, we knew things were really

bad when Phillips didn't show up.

==BY THE TIME THIS RECORDING BY LIFTON WAS MADE, I KNEW THAT LEE'S "MR. B"

CONTACT--WHO ONCE TOLD LEE HIS NAME WAS 'BENTON' AND ANOTHER TIME SOUNDED

LIKE 'BENSON' --WAS INTRODUCED TO HIM IN TEXAS EARLY SEPTEMBER AS ' BISHOP'

WHEN HE WAS WITH VECIANA THERE.

THIS WE DISCERNED AT THE END WAS DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS. WHEN I SAY 'PHILLIPS',

I MEAN HIS HANDLER IN MEXICO CITY, WITH WHOM LEE TRIED TO MAKE CONTACT

WHEN THE MEDICAL CONTACT AT THE SOUVENIR SHOP FAILED TO APPEAR. PHILLIPS

HAD FLOWN TO WASHINGTON AND WAS UNAVAILABLE. IT WAS A BLOW TO OSWALD.==

He told me, [recovers; now sounds cheerful-DSL] listen -I didn't know

what David Atlee Phillips name was until our last phone conversation,

or maybe a couple before that. I can't remember. But he told me, to

NEVER forget his name. He told me, "never forget his name."

DSL: How did he know his name, by the way?

JVB: Oh, he met him. But, listen, I'd overheard, we'd overheard, I'd

overheard his name before, over at Reily's. They talked about a guy

named Bishop, and [someone] said, 'That's Phillips", and so I had

an idea who that was.

==DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS HAD BEEN IN NEW ORLEANS BEFORE OR AFTER THE DATE

MAY 15, 1961 WHEN INCA WAS FORMED, AND FUNDRAISING FOR THE INFORMATION

COUNCIL OF THE AMERICAS WAS BEING ARRANGED BY OCHSNER AND BUTLER.

PHILLIPS WAS THERE AND PROVIDED IDEAS FOR PROPAGANDA AND FUNDING.

HE DID NOT DISGUISE HIS NAME.

RECORDS EXIST ABOUT THIS VISIT.

DR. PLATZMAN HAS ONE SUCH RECORD.

I WAS PRESENT AT MONAGHAN'S DESK WHEN REILY'S SECRETARY CAME DOWN TO FIND OUT

IF HERBERT PHILBRICK WAS GOING TO GET A FREE FLIGHT TO NEW ORLEANS THROUGH A REILY

CONTRIBUTION TO INCA, OR WAS IT A FREE STAY AT BRENT HOUSE AT OCHSNER'S, AND SO ON....

MONAGHAN WAS IN CHARGE OF FINANCE, CREDIT, FIELD OPERATIONS FOR THE COMPANY, AND

SECURITY, TOO. HE WAS A FORMER FBI MAN.

MY EARS PERKED UP BECAUSE LEE OSWALD WAS INTERESTED IN MEETING PHILBRICK, WHO DID

ARRIVE A FEW WEEKS LATER AND GAVE A PRESENTATION, WHEN LEE WAS ABLE TO MEET HIM.

EVENTUALLY, PHILBRICK DID BECOME AN OFFICIAL ADVISOR TO INCA , I THINK IN 1964. THE

SECRETARY MENTIONED THAT A "MR. BISHOP" HAD CALLED TO SAY HE WOULD PROVIDE FUNDS

FOR THE FLIGHT THROUGH REILY'S. A MEETING WAS GOING TO BE HELD ABUT IT. SHE WANTED

TO KNOW WHO "BISHOP" WAS, AS SHE HAD NOBODY ON FILE BY THAT NAME. AND MONAGHAN

SAID QUITE CLEARLY, "THAT'S PHILLIPS."

I TOLD THIS TO LEE, WHO LATER SAID HE HEARD PHILLIPS HAD COME TO INCA. SO WE BOTH

HEARD THE SAME THING, BUT I THINK I HEARD IT FIRST. BY THE LAST PHONE CALL, LEE HAD

DECIDED THAT BISHOP AND PHILLIPS HAD TO BE THE SAME PERSON.==

This raises obvious questions - and here are some David had for Martin Shackelford:

QUESTIONS FOR MARTIN SHACKELFORD:

1) Did Judyth tell you, as she did me, that she knew Phillips by his real name,

*and* by his alias?

LOOK AGAIN AT WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID, ACCORDING TO LIFTON HMSELF:

But, listen, I'd overheard, we'd overheard, I'd overheard

his name before, over at Reily's. They talked about a guy

named Bishop, and [someone] said, 'That's Phillips", and so

I had an idea who that was.

==LIFTON'S OVERSIMPLIFIED QUESTION MAKES IT SEEM THAT I STATED THAT

I KNEW PHILLIPS BY BOTH NAMES. OF COURSE I DID NOT 'KNOW' HIM AT ALL.

I HAD NO CONCEPT OF WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE.

ONLY BECAUSE LEE DIDN'T KNOW THE REAL NAME OF HIS TOP HANDLER DID WE

KEEP ALERT WHEN NAMES WERE DROPPED.

THE FACT THAT PHILBRICK WAS GOING TO COME TO NEW ORLEANS TO BE

INTERVIEWED BY OCHSNER AND CHARTER NCA MEMBER REILY WAS IMPORTANT

TO ME BECAUSE LEE WANTED TO MEET PHILBRICK. SO I LISTENED CAREFULLY

ABOUT PHILBRICK, WHICH HELPED ME REMEMBER THE REST OF THE CONVERSATION...

QUESTIONS CAN BE WORDED IN A WAY THAT MAKES A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION

OF THE REALITY. I NEVER 'KNEW' PHLLIPS. I NEVER 'KNEW' BISHOP.==

2) Did she tell you that Lee Oswald knew Phillips by his real name, *and* his alias?

==AGAIN, AND I SAY THE SAME THING IN THE DOCUMENTARY, LEE NEVER KNEW, WHEN

HE MET BISHP, THAT HE WAS SPEAKING TO PHILLIPS. HE FIGURED IT OUT LATER. THIS

LOADED QUESTION MAKES IT SEEM THAT I WAS SAYING LEE KNEW BOTH NAMES, AS IF,

PERHAPS, FOR A LONG TIME...THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID.==

3) If Phillips was involved in a covert operation that involved LHO, do you think

he'd tell him BOTH his alias and his real name?

==OF COURSE NOT. AND I NEVER SAID PHILLIPS TOLD LEE ANY SUCH THING. BUT THE

FACT THAT DAVID ATLEE PHILLPS' RESIDENCE WAS ACTUALLY IN FORT WORTH, VERY

CLOSE TO DALLAS, LEE WAS ABLE TO HUNT IT DOWN IN THE END.

AND THAT IS WHY, IN HIS LAST CALLS --AND ESPECIALLY THE VERY LAST CALL -- LEE

MADE A POINT, AS IT SAYS CLEARLY IN TMWKK DOCUMENTARY, THAT AT LAST HE HAD

FIGURED OUT WHO HIS HANDLER WAS--AT LAST.

IT IS DISCONCERTING THAT LIFTON CREATED THE IMPRESSION OF ASSERTIONS THAT

NEVER EXISTED, THAT I NEVER MADE, FOR YOU TO SEE FOR YOURSELF. FORTUNATELY,

INTELLIGENT READERS HERE CAN DISCERN THE TRUE MEANING.==

4) IF Phillips was involved in a covert operation, do you think he'd have anything

whatsoever to do with employees at Reily Coffee-again for any reason;

but, just for the sake of argument, let's say he did.

==IN HIS HUBRIS, MR.LIFTON MADE A FALSE ASSUMPTION THAT THESE WERE ORDINARY

EMPLOYEES. HE FAILED TO OBAIN MORE INFORMATION. MR. MONAGHAN WAS THE VICE

PRESIDENT, A FORMER FBI MAN. GERRY HEMMING IS ON RECORD SAYING MR. REILY OF

THE REILY COFFEE COMPANY HAD WORKED FOR THE CIA FOR YEARS. PHILLIPS IS ON

RECORD VISITING NEW ORLEANS AND BEING INVOLVED WITH INCA FUNDRAISING

OPERATIONS. REILY WAS A CHARTER MEMBER OF INCA AND ONE OF INCA'S MOST

GENEROUS DONORS. LIFTON'S QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN CIRCULATING--BASED ON A

FALSE PREMISE--CONFUSING GOOD RESEARCHERS FOR YEARS. WHY DID HE DO THIS?==

Do you believe that he'd be using both his real name AND his alias?

==OF COURSE NOT. STRETCH THE TRUTH ENOUGH AND I CAN SAY DAVID LIFTON IS

A LIPTON TEA BAG.==

If so, this has got to be one of the most insecure operations in intelligence history:

==NOW HE MAKES A SPIEL, BASED ON NOTHING==

not only does the low level agent, supposedly working directly under the CIA' Chief of

the Western Hemisphere Division know both his names,

==SPECIOUS, UNTRUE, UNINFORMED, AND TWISTING THE FACTS HE WAS GIVEN==

but so does his girlfriend! And, in addition, so do numerous others at the coffee company

where he is employed, oiling the machinery!

==NUMEROUS OTHERS? REILY'S SECRETARY AND MY BOSS, THE VICE PRESIDENT. AT

ANY TIME, MR. LIPTON, ER, MR. LIFTON, COULD HAVE COME TO CORRECT CONCLUSIONS,

HAD HE NOT PRE-DECIDED TO TRASH ME AS A WITNESS, POSSIBLY SO HIS BOOK WOULD

NOT HAVE TO INCLUDE ANYTHING ABOUT ME IN HIS BIOGRAPHY ABOUT OSWALD. I HAD

ALLOWED HIM TO INTERVIEW ME BECAUSE I'D HOPED TO HELP HIS BOOK BECOME A

SUCCESS WITH NEW INFORMATION ABOUT A NEW WITNESS. LIFTON DECIDED TO DO A

NUMBER ON ME, INSTEAD.==

(2) JUDYTH TALKES ABOUT DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS

LEE TOLD ME THAT DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS WAS THE ONE WHO MASTERMINDED MUCH OF THE

ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY. HE TOLD ME THAT PHILLIPS AND OTHERS WOULD BE PRESENT

TO WATCH JFK GO DOWN. ADDITIONAL DETAILS ARE IN THE BOOK.

An excerpt from David Lifton's conversation with Judyth.

On the question of whether Lee every met with David Atlee Phillips and whether

Lee knew Phillips by his real name; and the question of whether other employees

at Reily knew Phillips by either or both names ("Bishop" or Phillips), here's what

Judyth told me on March 4, 2000:

QUOTE ON:

JVB: What I simply want to do. . I want you to know that [Oswald] is an

innocent man; this is a man who had a chance to get out of this thing, and

he stuck it out. OK? He stuck it out. Of course, he wanted to get out

alive, and all that, but that is not the point, but he, [starts to get upset] he

knew that; [pause, starts to cry--dsl] he knew, we knew things were really

bad when Phillips didn't show up.

He told me, [recovers; now sounds cheerful-DSL] listen -I didn't know

what David Atlee Phillips name was until our last phone conversation,

or maybe a couple before that. I can't remember. But he told me, to

NEVER forget his name. He told me, "never forget his name."

DSL: How did he know his name, by the way?

JVB: Oh, he met him. But, listen, I'd overheard, we'd overheard, I'd

overheard his name before, over at Reily's. They talked about a guy

named Bishop, and [someone] said, 'That's Phillips", and so I had an

idea who that was.

This raises obvious questions - and here are the questions David had for Martin Shackelford:

QUESTIONS FOR MARTIN SHACKELFORD:

1) Did Judyth tell you, as she did me, that she knew Phillips by his real name,

*and* by his alias?

2) Did she tell you that Lee Oswald knew Phillips by his real name, *and* his

alias??

3) If Phillips was involved in a covert operation that involved LHO, do you think

he'd tell him BOTH his alias and his real name?

4) IF Phillips was involved in a covert operation, do you think he'd have

anything whatsoever to do with employees at Reily Coffee-again for any reason;

but, just for the sake of argument, let's say he did.

Do you believe that he'd be using both his real name AND his alias? If so, this

has got to be one of the most insecure operations in intelligence history: not only

does the low level agent, supposedly working directly under the CIA' Chief of

the Western Hemisphere Division know both his names, but so does his

girlfriend! And, in addition, so do numerous others at the coffee company where

he is employed, oiling the machinery!

Indeed, David's last comment sums it up rather well, imo.

(3) JUDYTH TALKS ABOUT JAMES FILES

IT GETS SO TOUGH, BEING A WITNESS. YOU MAKE ENEMIES BECAUSE YOUR TESTIMONY DOESN'T FIT

JIMMY SAID ONE THING CORRECT, SO I BELIEVE HE MET LEE OSWALD BUT IS NOT TELLING

EVERYTHING AS IT HAPPENED, OR HE HEARD IT FROM SOMEBODY WHO MET LEE. LEE HAD

A TINY SCAR NOBODY NOTICES ON HIS LIP. WIM ASKED ME HOW LEE GOT THE SCAR AND

I TOLD HIM, IN THE MARINES DURING BOOT CAMP, AND EXPLAINED THE INCIDENT.

NOW, FILES KNEW IT, TOO, AND I CANNOT EXPLAIN HOW HE DID.

It is no mystery how anyone would know that information. It is in Oswald's autopsy report.

Midline, upper lip, terminating at the vermillion margin is a 1/4 inch pale scar.

NOTE: The vermillion is where the pink lip tissue and the skin meet.

Barb :-)

Edited March 16, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH RESPONDS TO MY PSY OPS EXPERT:

PLEASE TELL YOUR PSY OPS EXPERT THAT HE IS ON THE MONEY...

Get this, and let him know:

WHEN WE MOVED TO AUSTIN IN 1966, WHEN ROBERT BEGAN HIS DOCTORAL

PROGRAM THERE IN GEOLOGY AND STATISTICS, I ENROLLED IN A HUMBLE

CHEMISTRY COURSE TO TRY TO GET BACK INTO SCIENCE...

YES, IT WAS ONLY 3 YEARS LATER, BUT SEEMED AN ETERNITY TO ME AS A

YOUNG PERSON WHO WANTED TO BECOME A DOCTOR.

I WAS CALLED INTO HARRY RANSOM'S OFFICE. I HAVE SINCE LEARNED THE

SEE AYE EYE CONNECTIONS RANSOM HAD.

HE ORDERED ME PERSONALLY TO DROP THE COURSE AND NEVER GO NEAR

MEDICAL OR SCIENCE COURSES AGAIN.

I SPENT TWENTY-FIVE SLOW YEARS ACCUMULATING ENOUGH SCIENCE CREDITS

ANYWAY (MY GREAT LOVE) AND OBTAINED A RARE B.S. DEGREE IN ANTHROPOLOGY,

INCLUDING FORENSIC SCIENCE.

IT WAS AS CLOSE AS I COULD GET TO BECOMING A DOCTOR.

I WILL NEVER FORGIVE THESE xxxxxxxxxxx FOR RUINING MY CHANCE TO HELP

PEOPLE AND CURE CANCER. YES, I KNEW PLENTY ABOUT BIOWEAPONS.

EVEN TODAY--I STRESS THAT--EVEN TODAY--COULD GUIDE A LAB TO A CURE

FOR SOFT TISSUE CANCERS, USING BACTERIOPHAGE MANIPULATION.

THERE IS MUCH MORE I COULD SAY ABOUT THIS, BUT FOR NOW, THIS

IS ENOUGH. I AM GOING TO SAVE THE REST FOR THE BOOK.

J

PLACING JUDYTH'S EXPERIENCE IN PERSPECTIVE

I invited my psy ops expert to read the thread and

offer his observations about what has been taking

place on this forum. It appears to place Judyth's

experience in perspective in relation to TI patterns

of "Targeted Individuals" of intelligence operations.

Jim, I read all the posts. I do agree with what Monk says and I find his reasoning impeccable. Monk is a very intelligent man and has always expressed good judgement from what I know of his posts over the years. I also know where you are coming from and do not have the specific knowledge base about this matter to agree or disagree with you. But I can certainly respect your opinion and you could be correct.

To many, Judyth's story just isn't interesting from a raw evidenciary standpoint for the JFK assassination. It is no more than a human interest story to these folks and I can understand that. No doubt Jack White is a serious researcher and has made many astonishing and well founded research discoveries about the JFK Assassination and Nasa's faked moon landing videos. It seems to me that he has taken a perspective somewhat like Monk's, that most of Judyth's story is a personal interest story and is of little value to the JFK Assassination, although Jack appears to have concluded there are a number of contradictions in her story.

It seems to me that Jack has focused on some apparent contradictions between what others claim Judyth stated in the past and what she states now. And it seems to me that both Jack and Monk really think Judyth's story would not make any difference in a court of law if the JFK Assassination was ever brought to trial and the true perps were prosecuted for the murder and the coverup as accessories after the fact (by the way such accessory after the fact crimes are still being committed and by a fair number of intel ops in high places--don't belive me google the "black eagle trust" just for one of many, many long term intel ops--oops, maybe I shouldn't have spilled the beans on that--too bad--connect some dots if you want to).

It appears that Jack thinks Judyth's story contained certain things that have been shown to be a problem based on prior claims of hers. It is my understanding that Jack has a long history of being a very no nonsense, hardnosed, serious and very successful researcher who has little time for personal interest stories unless proven to be relevant and backed up by irrefutable 100% hard evidence, preferably photo or video. I don't have the background or knowledge of this matter to evaluate what detail of Judyth's personal story about her and Oswald is correct to every last detail or not, so I can't myself come to any judgments about the veracity of the details of Judyth's personal story. But I don't doubt that she is a long term TI for whatever reasons.

I can state without reservation that the way this matter has played out has all the fingerprints of a long term intel intercept op and a very sophisticated psyop. Where there is smoke there is fire, so what part of Judyth's history is intel working so hard to keep buried? And what part might they be working to embellish that would lead researchers away from what they want to stay hidden?

Usually this kind of op must be ordered and tracked by a single person at a very high level who was responsible for this operation right from the very start and maybe still is. In rare occasions a matter may be so important it is signed off or reassigned to another high level decision maker or small team once the original decision maker retires or dies. The initial decision maker would probably have to have been central to the JFK Assassination coverup and carry a great deal of absolute caesarian power and "with prejudice" authority. This key person or decision maker would perhaps have something personal to lose if this certain part of Judyth's story ever comes out and is exposed to international public scrutiny and thousands of researchers who have great resources and extensive investigative skills. One possibility is that perhaps a major investment this person or group was involved in and is still involved in would be directly jeapardized if that certain part of Judyth's story received too much attention. The key would be to find what this investment is in. If you doubt this occurs, try watching the following video on fluoride at the bottom of this post (this will give you an idea of how this works--skip through any boring parts): http://preventdisease.com/home/tips79.shtml

For example, what about the well-known little problem with the neuro-toxin aspartame (especially when heated in the sun) and how rummy got things well greased at the FDA for approval and got the negative studies buried.

And of course there are some real nobodies posting against Judyth who never made any major contributions to JFK Assassination research anytime in their lives and use the internet as a means to try to make their mark, to establish themselves as an authority (or perhaps to further an agenda being promoted by someone they are aligned with, whether they understand the game plan or not). These folks seem to always deliver an untruthful payload in everything they do, even though their initial approach may sound like "serious research". And it seems to be true to the following game plan, which is standard operating procedure, typical intel "sources and methods" trade-craft. This game plan is your typical "provoke and punish" strategy for discrediting and wearing out a witness. I'm not saying these folks vacationed at the dairy farm--Camp Peary--milking cows and working with pencil thrusts, lamps or "buses", but they seem to be following a game plan and are obsessed with covering up and obscuring facts of the JFK Assassination in other of their postings and so called "research" and seem to relish attacking Judyth's story.

It works like this: Go over the targeted individual's story with a fine tooth comb and then do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again ad nauseum, maybe as a team, until you find some contradictions (and there always will be some because TI's are human). Then using these apparent inconsistencies and contradictions, take some very hard specific shots at the TI's story at its most vulnerable points and do it in a passive aggressive but still insulting, discrediting manner which makes them feel attacked and demeaned as a person, while ignoring any suffering they have gone through while they have been a TI.

Then keep it up for years, and years, regurgitating and recycling the same old stuff, even if it was undone before once or twice until two three goals are attained:

Goal #1: Wear the TI out (individuals who are long term TI's typically are survivors and long ago made the commitment to survive and defend their story at all costs. (That's why they never gave up their story in the first place for for so many years, they are strong willed and cannot be cowered or shut up no matter what.)

Goal #2: Distract and shift the attention of the TI and others as far away from what secret you are attempting to keep covered up as possible in order to prevent a certain thread from being pulled, a thread which could unravel a current op which is an extension of a past op and is also very, very important.

GOAL #3: Keep this game plan going by creating "conflict points" and recycling these over and over until goals #1 & #2 are well attained and the TI is distracted from getting her story out (in this case completing her book which will probably sell fairly well since the author has some very interesting base facts already well established which set an interesting plausibility for her story).

I understand that Judyth has a very interesting story to tell about Oswald and her relationship with him which is important history, even if it is told from her own personal perspective based on her contacts and knowledge of him. I for one am not really interested in the personal aspects of it, but much more interested in the basic background facts of her medical research, and why and how she was selected for help with a very interesting medical research program. But I am going to buy her book as soon as ity is out because I want to support her efforts to survive as a TI.

Certainly it seems obvious that her very high IQ and her excellent HS academic achievements, along with an apparent very high aptitude for academic achievement made her interesting to certain parties many years ago back in the early 1960s, and there are always officials who are on the look out for the very gifted to bring into their pet programs. This is what interests me. I still believe that the real reason for Judyth being a long term TI is related to the cancer research she did and certain secret aspects of the medical research she was exposed to, but I may be incorrect on this or any other of my assertions. I just don't think so, however. I always root for the TI victims and I hope that Judyth attains real success with her book, which I believe she will.

Edited March 17, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

I just wrote this on another forum. To it I should have added Martin Shackleford-Bob Vernon-Wim Dankbaar, purveyors.

QUOTE:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Meredith

I have been watching the last several days while a few people connected to the JFK assassination have attempted to make this case ALL ABOUT THEM.

Now just why woud someone have a need to do this? Ego? Pathos?

Or something more sinister? Why would an alleged witness or researcher spend so much time keeping the focus on themselves?

This is to me indicative of, at the very least, a sense of self-centeredness that has zero to do with advancing us toward resolution of this major event in our sordid history.

Getting other researchers squabbling over minor details is such an old worn out trick you'd think that no one would fall for it any longer. Alas...it still works like a charm.

Meanwhile....Obama is seeing to it that more intel secrecy occurs...anyone noticing? But then it's not as important as someone's bruised ego, after all.

Dawn

Dawn...I assume you are talking about you-know-who.

I would be remiss if I did not point out that the scenario you

refer to surfaced as part of another big MAFIA DID IT push.

It continues to push organized crime as sponsor. The person

you speak of actually may be an unwitting pusher of this

"theory".

I think that all reputable researchers KNOW that the Mafia

did NOT do it.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Yikes! I hope you are not talking about Judyth and me. Judyth has been responding to massive attacks here on The Education Forum, where I have carried over those that convey the core of her position to the Deep Politics Forum. I have supposed these posts were welcome there, so Dawn's post surprises me.. The attack have outnumbered the posts I have put up here by several times--say, three or four to one, if you check it. I am finding what she has to say quite fascinating--and it most certainly has nothing to do with promoting the mafia as the principal player in the assassination of JFK. Unless I have missed the boat, many of those here have also valued what Judyth has to say. Tell me if I 'm missing something. I have even assumed that you, Dawn, were interested in these matters, but I know that Jack does not share my enthusiasm for what Judyth has to say. In any case, these threads are nearing their terminus and we are going to shift to a blog about Judyth at http://judythbaker.blogspot.com.

I just wrote this on another forum. To it I should have added Martin Shackleford-Bob Vernon-Wim Dankbaar, purveyors.

QUOTE:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Meredith

I have been watching the last several days while a few people connected to the JFK assassination have attempted to make this case ALL ABOUT THEM.

Now just why woud someone have a need to do this? Ego? Pathos?

Or something more sinister? Why would an alleged witness or researcher spend so much time keeping the focus on themselves?

This is to me indicative of, at the very least, a sense of self-centeredness that has zero to do with advancing us toward resolution of this major event in our sordid history.

Getting other researchers squabbling over minor details is such an old worn out trick you'd think that no one would fall for it any longer. Alas...it still works like a charm.

Meanwhile....Obama is seeing to it that more intel secrecy occurs...anyone noticing? But then it's not as important as someone's bruised ego, after all.

Dawn

Dawn...I assume you are talking about you-know-who.

I would be remiss if I did not point out that the scenario you

refer to surfaced as part of another big MAFIA DID IT push.

It continues to push organized crime as sponsor. The person

you speak of actually may be an unwitting pusher of this

"theory".

I think that all reputable researchers KNOW that the Mafia

did NOT do it.

Jack

Edited March 17, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

This is a nice example of why what Judyth has to say is so important: look at the direction it leads!

FROM MY PSY OPS EXPERT:

The following is strictly my own opinion based on reports from certain individuals and others must do their own research to validate these ideas one way or the other. Much is based on hearsay and anecdotal information which may be unreliable.

IMO the black eagle trust (fund) is a very important issue and is directly linked to the the Lily gold, the Nazi Gold, operation paperclip, the MKultra program, big pharma (which has had heavy links to eugenics and nazis as well as nazi mind kontrol experts brought over as a part of operation paperclip), DOE, nuclear weapons industry, cancer society, illegal drug and weapons trafficking, child trafficking, big pharma, vaccines, high tech dumbing down, eugenics, money laundering, wall street, int' merchant banking and all us covert operations since WW2 including the current nazification of the USA under all of the last regimes since JFK was murdered. Those who doubt he was killed by a military coup de etat may find some interesting research done by William F. Pepper on the MLK assassination. He presents well documented scenarios about how these deep black "wet boy" ops are set up and conducted.

The black eagle trust has really been largely ignored except for a few very, very few skilled researchers. I know Jim Marrs has done some very good work researching at least some related aspects of this matter to the bormann group of 700+ corps which survived ww2 and I have a great deal of respect for his work on the post ww2 nazi collaboration with, and takeover of, us intel. And a couple others have done pioneering work on this, and David Guyatt in particular has done some very outstanding work on this. This man most likely has a great deal of research which would explain the betf impact on black ops today. http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_spoils_of_war.htm If I wanted to know more about it I would take a detailed look at what research he can provide and I would pay a great deal of attention to his suggestions. I would also ask Jim Marrs if he has additional ideas on any connections between nazis, south america, black eagle trust, wall street, banking, nato, pentagon, big pharma and dallas. I found his book "The Rise of the Fourth Reich" about nazis surviving and thriving after the war very, very well done. Mae Brussel discovered some very interesting connections between imported nazis and the us govt after WW2 just from studying newspapers (of course the fact that she had tremendous intuitive ability and was highly intelligent would explain her ability to connect the dots so well).

The betf appears to connect directly to the JFK Assassination, many other assassinations of foreign leaders by us intel around the world and was perhaps the main financing vehicle used to buy and sell politicians, fix elections, take care of problems outside official channels, bribe pentagram officials and generals, judges, prominent corp officials, etc. It has perhaps been the main secret slush fund used to finance the emerging "fourth reich of the rich" and their new world order of int'l corporations.

It apparently has also been connected to high tech, long term eugenics efforts to dumb the people down by fluoridating the water, adding lead to the gasoline and mercury and sv-40 fragments in vaccines, which also helps to create many long term illnesses and keep certain parts of the medical industry booming, via connections to the defense complex. Vaccines never needed mercury, it is there only for eugenics and dumbing down. It appears to connect to HIV as a bioweapon, current work on nanoparticle size injectable electronic chips, chemtrail spraying, psychoelectronics including gwen and haarp, GMO foodstuffs and "suicide seeds" which can't reproduce after the product is grown once, making the farmers dependent on a seed provider. The major media and many major industries have been "deputized" as agents of national security, thus they cooperate with the shadow government very well and this big slush fund is apparently a very important part of the shadow government.

The black eagle trust perhaps became quickly aligned with or was an extension of the infamous Bormann Group of 700+ corporations owned by nazi who survived and prospered after WW2 (the nazis won WW2 and the German people lost the war--this is because the nazis were started by an interconnected set of esoteric secret societies associated with wall street, int'l merchant banking, the opium trade, and the old black european nobility (typically referred to as "money changers"). The real power to this day still lies in a certain part of germany, with alleged ties to brussels (shape) and "the joint" in NYC (not dc either). These folks start the wars to keep the defense complex generating huge profits to further the creation of the "new world order of the ages" i.e. NWO. What is the new world order? It is a new order based and centered out of the "new world" ie North America and constructed on the esoteric principals of interlocked secret societies, but it is run by certain power figures and "families" outside the US most likely.

IMO, If one wants to understand who was behind the terrible events in dealey plaza, one needs to fully examine and research the black eagle trust, who started it and their ties to dealey and its cover up and who runs it today. Maybe I would look very carefully at gen willoughby and gen ed lansdale for starters and their ties to alan dulles, sullivan and cromwell, wall street and the rest of the "blue bloods". Betf has been alleged to have now reported to have built up a balance of 13.3 trillion US dollars equivalent value (much from illegal narcotics and weapons sales, and "safari club" type eugenics and associated takeover of a country's natural resources, so the folks running it can literally buy darned near the whole world. Who are the key players at the top of us intel who have had the authority to disperse these funds over the years of its existence?. What has been the chain of command of the betf since the end of ww2 and who were the key players at that time? Why does eugenics such an important part of their game plan (see "georgia guideposts" for their nwo "ten commandments").

Not enough folks understand the existence and composition of the shadow government and what it is. Some feel it is the skeleton formation of the new world order. Once the fascist transformation is complete, the nwo may be a new world government in and of the "new world" for the whole world run out of dc (at least that is why these folks are trying for). The very best research on what the shadow government is can be found in the work of California psychologist Richard Boyland, Ph.D. I cannot vouch for the rest of his work because I have not studied it but I can state emphatically that his description of the shadow government is excellent. http://www.apfn.org/apfn/shadow.htm Some very excellent researchers have provided very good evidence that england never gave up its determination to once again colonize the US and get it back. Some say this was finally attained in 1913 and have identified the "pilgrim society" as the main vehicle for this, similar to the "order of the bell". Only recently has good research on the pilgrim group been made available on the internet. http://www.silver-investor.com/charlessavoie/cs_dec04.pdf . So you have the "double headed eagle" running everything, with one head the visible and the other the hidden or real power. You have this "double-mindedness" expressed in every deep black op because that is what these people are all about: complete duplicity in everything, i.e. one story for the media for dispense to the public edward bernays style and the other for their own inside game plan. This complete and total duplicity with every major media outlet and the near complete educational system under the control of the shadow government creates a scenario where the truth, even if discovered and dispensed by good researchers is so incredulous that almost no member of the public will know it is true. Some may believe it is true or might be true but without the blessing of the major mass media they cannot allow themselves to know it is true. Almost every great deep black ops secret is hidden in plain sight with very little risk of discovery (as Prof Marshall McLuhan once stated that secrecy laws are only needed to protect the little secrets, that the incredulity of the public protects the big ones).

Therefore, a new strategy developed to psychologically process the group mind of the public, this was "the king's new clothes' game", which is best described as using researchers to dispense the real truth in small packets, and then countering it with posner type absurdities which fit the usual government line of lies. This allows many to believe a small part of the truth without be able to know it for sure sine they can't without validation by the major mas media. Result is what the shadow government intended. This pairing of "truth releases" followed by "posner absurdity cover ups" that support the king's new clothes shtick creates heavy duty cognitive dissonance for most. And it is well known that such cognitive dissonance makes most folks just go away in "quiet desperation", thus alienating them and dis-empowering them from participating in their own government. The real mystery to some is why do our politicians and corp leaders play into the king's new clothes shtick and pay homage to the king by telling his new clothes look great when he is really naked? Answer, because they know they must do this to climb the food chain and get their own piece of pie and pot of gold. They must pay homage or lest they may be "a man without a country" by morning.

[Linda Minor]

I am trying to understand the timelines of JVB and LHO, so have

been doing some reading, and found the following of interest:

4-20-63: JVB arrives in NOLA.

4-25-63: LHO arrives in NOLA.

4-26-63: JVB meets total stranger LHO in a line at post office.

4-27-63. LHO takes JVB on a NOLA tour to meet...

...Ferrie

...Bannister

...Ochsner

4-27-63: JVB and LHO instructed to watch for classified ad for

employment, 640 Magazine Street, by Alvin Prechter.

5-1-63: Robert Baker arrives in NOLA and demands immediate marriage.

5-2-63: JVB and Baker elope to Mobile Alabama

5-3-63: Baker leaves his bride of one day.

5-4-63: JVB is evicted from her rented room.

5-4-63: LHO arranges a new room for JVB.

5-9-63: LHO and JVB interviewed by Prechter at 640 Magazine.

5-10-63: LHO and JVB hired by Standard Coffee Company.

5-17-63: LHO and JVB transferred to Reily Coffee Company.

7-19-63: LHO fired by Reily.

8-9-63: JVB fired by Reily.

What I gather from these timelines:

1. LHO and JVB knew each other before they worked at Reily's.

2. Within two days of arriving in NOLA, LHO met total stranger JVB

and took her around NOLA introducing her to Ferrie, Bannister and

Ochsner.

3. JVB and LHO were co-employees only from 5-10 until 7-19...

20 days in May, 30 days in June, and 19 days in July...a total of

69 days.

Previously I had been under the impression that ALL of the claimed

association took place at Reily Coffee Company.

Jack

Apparently few bothered to read the timeline of JVB I posted. The implications of it are clear to me.

It reads like a script for "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE".

IMAGINED SCRIPT:

Hello, Miss Vary. Your assignment, if you choose to accept it, is as follows.

Move to New Orleans at your own expense this summer.

On April 26, watch the line of people at general delivery at the Post Office.

When a young man about 5'9" tall gets in line, approach him and drop a folded newspaper.

If he does nothing, he is not your contact.

If he picks up the paper for you, say "Thank You" to him in Russian.

He will confirm that he is your contact.

He will introduce you to people we want you to know in New Orleans.

The next day he will introduce you to a Dr. Ochsner, Dr. Ferrie and our man Guy Banister.

They will instruct you to watch for a classified ad which will place both of you in one of our front companies.

Once in place, you will await further instructions regarding your assignments.

This tape will self-destruct in five seconds.... 4...3...2...1...pfffffft.

I read your timeline and replied to it. You wouldn't have to be asking these questions if you had read the book she wrote. I read it, including all the footnotes and then did follow-up research on it. She explained it all very cogently.

[Linda Minor]

This is a nice example of Junkkarinen missing the boat completely.

The question is not whether Lee had a small scar on his lip, which

is indeed something that one could learn from his autopsy report.

The question is how he acquired the scar. I spent three hours watching

James Files being interviewed by Jim Marrs and Wim Dankbaar and, as

Judyth is aware, he explained the story of how Lee acquired the scar.

If Junkkarinen has no more understanding than she is displaying here,

then I think the time has come to fold her tent. No one was taking about

HAVING THE SCAR. The issue was KNOWING HOW HE HAD ACQUIRED IT.

I, for one, feel that if Barb or Jack can't come up with any more reason not to quit arguing about something they know nothing about than they have so far, you and Judyth would be better off to stop wasting your time trying to convince them. Fold your tent and have Judyth get her new book finished. I would like to read it. I know it will be as fascinating and informative as the last one, which I found truly gripping. It was well-written and informative.

I would challenge anyone to remember every detail of anything that happened to them in 1963 without making any errors or mistakes. To hold Judyth to the standard they have required is totally absurd!

And I'll repeat what I said many pages of posts before--there is very valuable material in what Judyth has presented, simply in the way she describes the entire set up at Reily Coffee, the way Lee was hired, allowed to slip out to do other things, etc. That is what people should be following up on in my opinion. It is how intelligence organizations operate within an existing corporate infrastructure that includes the military and elements of organized crime. She was there and saw how it operated. This is the whole crux of what is important about the assassination--how the power structure operated.

[William Kelly]

This is a nice example of Junkkarinen missing the boat completely.

The question is not whether Lee had a small scar on his lip, which

is indeed something that one could learn from his autopsy report.

The question is how he acquired the scar. I spent three hours watching

James Files being interviewed by Jim Marrs and Wim Dankbaar and, as

Judyth is aware, he explained the story of how Lee acquired the scar.

If Junkkarinen has no more understanding than she is displaying here,

then I think the time has come to fold her tent. No one was taking about

HAVING THE SCAR. The issue was KNOWING HOW HE HAD ACQUIRED IT.

I, for one, feel that if Barb or Jack can't come up with any more reason not to quit arguing about something they know nothing about than they have so far, you and Judyth would be better off to stop wasting your time trying to convince them. Fold your tent and have Judyth get her new book finished. I would like to read it. I know it will be as fascinating and informative as the last one, which I found truly gripping. It was well-written and informative.

I would challenge anyone to remember every detail of anything that happened to them in 1963 without making any errors or mistakes. To hold Judyth to the standard they have required is totally absurd!

And I'll repeat what I said many pages of posts before--there is very valuable material in what Judyth has presented, simply in the way she describes the entire set up at Reily Coffee, the way Lee was hired, allowed to slip out to do other things, etc. That is what people should be following up on in my opinion. It is how intelligence organizations operate within an existing corporate infrastructure that includes the military and elements of organized crime. She was there and saw how it operated. This is the whole crux of what is important about the assassination--how the power structure operated.

I take it back - my allegation that JVB never gave us anything new.

Now there's the Koon Kreek Club, which is new to me, and quite the place for the conspirators to conspire over Whiskey and Baked Brim.

"....Afterward Murchison frequently sent his airplane to pick up Ochsner and Mann and ake them to his ranch in Texas or the one in Mexico or to the Koon Kreek Klub, a fishing hangout for wealthy Texans...."

The Business of Brim:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/art...69698/index.htm

To Texas Millionaire Clint Murchison and his cronies, the pursuit of this sunfish is a disease which can only partially be cured at Koon Kreek Klub

I wonder if it segregated.

BK

[Jack White]

This is a nice example of Junkkarinen missing the boat completely.

The question is not whether Lee had a small scar on his lip, which

is indeed something that one could learn from his autopsy report.

The question is how he acquired the scar. I spent three hours watching

James Files being interviewed by Jim Marrs and Wim Dankbaar and, as

Judyth is aware, he explained the story of how Lee acquired the scar.

If Junkkarinen has no more understanding than she is displaying here,

then I think the time has come to fold her tent. No one was taking about

HAVING THE SCAR. The issue was KNOWING HOW HE HAD ACQUIRED IT.

I, for one, feel that if Barb or Jack can't come up with any more reason not to quit arguing about something they know nothing about than they have so far, you and Judyth would be better off to stop wasting your time trying to convince them. Fold your tent and have Judyth get her new book finished. I would like to read it. I know it will be as fascinating and informative as the last one, which I found truly gripping. It was well-written and informative.

I would challenge anyone to remember every detail of anything that happened to them in 1963 without making any errors or mistakes. To hold Judyth to the standard they have required is totally absurd!

And I'll repeat what I said many pages of posts before--there is very valuable material in what Judyth has presented, simply in the way she describes the entire set up at Reily Coffee, the way Lee was hired, allowed to slip out to do other things, etc. That is what people should be following up on in my opinion. It is how intelligence organizations operate within an existing corporate infrastructure that includes the military and elements of organized crime. She was there and saw how it operated. This is the whole crux of what is important about the assassination--how the power structure operated.

I take it back - my allegation that JVB never gave us anything new.

Now there's the Koon Kreek Club, which is new to me, and quite the place for the conspirators to conspire over Whiskey and Baked Brim.

"....Afterward Murchison frequently sent his airplane to pick up Ochsner and Mann and ake them to his ranch in Texas or the one in Mexico or to the Koon Kreek Klub, a fishing hangout for wealthy Texans...."

The Business of Brim:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/art...69698/index.htm

To Texas Millionaire Clint Murchison and his cronies, the pursuit of this sunfish is a disease which can only partially be cured at Koon Kreek Klub

I wonder if it segregated.

BK

Note that Koon Kreek Klub = KKK.

[John Dolva]

http://www.constitution.org/abus/jgray/jgray1.htm

http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/17/hunting-c...0217cheney.html

http://www.geonames.org/4703656/koon-kreek-klub.html

etc.

[Jack White]

http://www.constitution.org/abus/jgray/jgray1.htm

http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/17/hunting-c...0217cheney.html

http://www.geonames.org/4703656/koon-kreek-klub.html

etc.

For the uninitiated, in Texas and other parts of the South, KOON was (is) a "redneck" name for Negroes.

And the Koon Kreek Klub is clearly a reference to the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), an anti-Negro organization of

the 1920s.

And "hunting" on private "game preserves" is a way for good ol' boys to enjoy KILLING things and satisfying

bloodthirsty urges harmlessly (except to the hapless captive "game" animals, of course; sorta like shooting

animals at your local zoo, and having them mounted as trophies.) Rednecks teach their boys that you

ain't a man, son, till you've killed something.

[John Dolva]

mike-greenberg-is-not-the-first-man-to-accidentally-say-martin-luther-koon

http://deadspin.com/5451575/mike-greenberg...tin-luther-koon

[Barb Junkkarinen]

I, for one, feel that if Barb or Jack can't come up with any more reason not to quit arguing about something they know nothing about than they have so far, you and Judyth would be better off to stop wasting your time trying to convince them. Fold your tent and have Judyth get her new book finished. I would like to read it. I know it will be as fascinating and informative as the last one, which I found truly gripping. It was well-written and informative.

I would challenge anyone to remember every detail of anything that happened to them in 1963 without making any errors or mistakes. To hold Judyth to the standard they have required is totally absurd!

And I'll repeat what I said many pages of posts before--there is very valuable material in what Judyth has presented, simply in the way she describes the entire set up at Reily Coffee, the way Lee was hired, allowed to slip out to do other things, etc. That is what people should be following up on in my opinion. It is how intelligence organizations operate within an existing corporate infrastructure that includes the military and elements of organized crime. She was there and saw how it operated. This is the whole crux of what is important about the assassination--how the power structure operated.

Hi Linda, nice to meet you.

I waited for Judyth's first book to come out, because, it was promised, that it would contain all the documentation ... and because there had been so many changes in the story along the way during the 6 years it was thrashed out on the moderated group. I figured once it was published, the jello would have been firmly nailed to the tree. My error on thinking that!

I would challenge anyone to remember the fine and explicit details Judyth claims she remembers and writes ... right down to detailed conversations of who said exactly what, when and where. Do you *really* think Monaghan would offhandedly tell a secretary ... and in earshot of another secretary ... that Bishop is Phillips? Why would Phillips have even revealed his cover to Monaghan? From an intelligence standpoint, that is just plain silly. It's also a new detail not in her original story. Now enter Files, with Judyth being surprised he knew the story about Oswald's scar, and Oswald in Baton Rouge.... and my favorite ... Judyth didn't leave after being dismissed from Roswell Park because she was "embedded" in Dr. Moore's lab and just doing the summer program on the side.

I read her book. And I did follow up research too. I undertook some fact checking of the basics of her story. Those things in her life that had some basis in truth ... which, imo, should have been the ABCs undertaken a decade ago when she was brought out as a new "witness." I sought confirmation or denial on her claims about:

The Russian class,

the green glass promotion in the Spring or summer of 1963,

on any equipment or scholarships or grants she got from the American Cancer Society,

or the National Science Foundation,

or the National Cancer Institute and National Institutes of Health.

I spoke to the registrar and records dept and librarian at St. Francis College about claims there. I talked to nuns there.

I researched the Indiana Biological Association claim, that has been posted about briefly here.

Then there is Roswell Park, also posted about briefly here.

There is more regarding both Roswell Park and St. Francis ...as well as the Univ of Florida that I am not ready to disclose.

I contacted a boy she mentioned from the science fair ... he disagrees strongly with her characterization.

I just posted findings on the U Louisiana library the other day ... her claims regarding that library are completely at odds with the facts about that library ...and yes, it is a big deal, because she used her "story" about the library to "prove" she never did any research.

There is more. A lot more. And none of it came out in Judyth's favor. Not one thing checked out.

I find that significant. If the claims about stepping stones of her life, that she used to weave together this path from high school to Ferrie's kitchen and beyond, are not credible, then just how much confidence can one even halfway reasonably have in anything she claims that cannot be fact checked?

How much value can her amazing tales about all the people she met and was involved with, Oswald's work arrangements, the plan in Dealey Plaza and the whole bioweapon thing or anything else *have*? I personally do not find chasing flights of fancy based on nothing but Judyth's sayso as anything good for research ... or for the research community.

If all you have read is Judyth's book, then you are way below the curve on Judyth's story. Stories, plural. For they have changed .... not just little details. And some have changed more than once. What I have noted here on this forum, and commented on just a few of them, are new changes. The new claim that she was "embedded" in Dr. George Moore's lab at Roswell Park .... and just did the summer program on the side, for example ... that's not a nitpicky little detail that no one could be expected to remember. There have been others.

I like a gripping novel too. Like Brown, Cornwell, Berry. For research, I want something that clearly separates fact from speculation or theory or romance novel.

Judyth herself told about how the psychiatrist 60 Minutes hired to examine her called her a "storyteller." In my opinion, from the years of watching, listening and participating I have done on the internet, from reading her book, and from the fact checking I have been doing ... I agree with him.

Judyth is bright, and creative. There is no doubt about that. She is passionate about this, there is no doubt about that either. And I have no personal ill will toward Judyth at all. But Jack is exactly correct ... and anyone who has followed the cyber reams of posts from both Judyth and her most ardent supporters over the last decade knows ... when something is shown to be factually incorrect, when there's a problem .... a change will follow, and that will involve long and repeated explanations, a martyr story or two .... and always an excuse. It was always somebody else's fault.

It has been established that Judyth worked at Reily at the same time Oswald did, and that she was an outstanding science student who took on amazing projects for a high school student and got amazing results, for which she was recognized. Beyond that, her bonafides for any of the rest of this stuff, in light of the fact that things that can be checked out, do not check out, are *what* exactly?????

We do agree on one thing. And Jack said it just the other day. Until Judyth's new book comes out, this is all, and demonstrably so, a tremendous waste of time. I've wasted enough, and will mostly just keep an eye on it occasionally for any other new developments. Fetzer and Judyth should fold the tent ... and Judyth should work on helping Trine Day get her book finished and out. I can't wait to read it either.

Barb :-)

Edit: I apparently can neither spell nor type at 1am. :-)

Edited March 17, 2010 by Barb Junkkarinen