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More Unanswered Questions If Oswald Did It

Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin

For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.

1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where someone must have handed him the package(s) over the counter and created some receipt.

2) Physically move the rifle from Dallas to New Orleans in April and back again in September in Mrs. Paine's station wagon and storing it in her garage without her or her husband knowing it. He had to do these things without even being present at the scene so that is pretty amazing.

3) Obtain the ammo and clip for the rifle and bullets for the pistol.

4) Obtain the brown paper wrapping paper that was said to have concealed the rifle when he brought it to the TSBD.

5) Disassemble the rifle at the Paines and reassemble the rifle at the TSBD.

6) Build the wall of book boxes that set up the Sniper's Lair in the Sixth Floor window.

7) Hide the assembled rifle somewhere in the TSBD for the hours before the assassination.

8) Get from the First Floor of the TSBD where he was last seen to the Sixth Floor.

9) Shoot the rifle from the Sixth Floor Window.

10) Hide the rifle on the Sixth Floor and descend the steps to the Second Floor in less than two minutes without being seen by Dougherty, who was standing by the elevators, and two secretaries who descended the same steps from the Fourth Floor at the same time.

11) Leave the TSBD after the assassination.

12) Change his shirt (did he change his shirt?)

13) Get from the bus stop at the corner outside his rooming house to 10th and Patton.

14) Get from 10th and Patton to the Texas Theater (was that him? Or Get from the rooming house to the Texas Theater.

15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

Paul, Of course #15 was tongue planted firmly in cheek. Someone did make that arrangement however.

In addition, later on in another thread you mention that the rifle was indeed found clean and oiled, ready for firing, and Oswald was not known to have cleaned or oiled the rifle at any time, but because it was clean and well oiled, you state that Oswald must have done it and deliberatly done it when nobody else was around.

I take it that we can also write in Oswald's name in the blanks above, and assume that since he killed the President alone, he must have done all of those things himself as well?

BKelly

Edited by William Kelly
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15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

So you're saying that, if LHO did kill JFK, he would have had to somehow arrange the motorcade himself? This is clearly nonsense.

No-one saw LHO do this or that (disassemble, reassemble, hide rifle, arrange boxes etc) because he was careful that no-one was around when he did.

No-one saw LHO take a dump that day. Did he?

Paul.

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15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

So you're saying that, if LHO did kill JFK, he would have had to somehow arrange the motorcade himself? This is clearly nonsense.

No-one saw LHO do this or that (disassemble, reassemble, hide rifle, arrange boxes etc) because he was careful that no-one was around when he did.

No-one saw LHO take a dump that day. Did he?

Paul.

No evidence, no records, no witness?

You know Paul, there's a little restroom on the second floor right by the south door to the lunchoom vestibule that's not show in the floor plans of the building in evidence. If Officer Baker saw Oswald through the window of the west door to the same vestibule, then he probably entered the vestibule from the south door, and I think he was in that restroom at the time of the assassination. Maybe he was taking a dump.

BK

Edited by William Kelly
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15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

So you're saying that, if LHO did kill JFK, he would have had to somehow arrange the motorcade himself? This is clearly nonsense.

No-one saw LHO do this or that (disassemble, reassemble, hide rifle, arrange boxes etc) because he was careful that no-one was around when he did.

No-one saw LHO take a dump that day. Did he?

Paul.

So there we have it. Because no one saw him with the gun, either disassemble it, re-assemble it, hide it, retrieve it, arrange the lair or fire it and then hide it again, we are not to attribute any doubt to his guilt but simply conclude he must have "been careful".

As Duke has pointed out, this is a classic case of having a rigid pre-arranged view that starts with "Oswald did it" and then moulding, actually pebble-dashing, the facts around that.

So, "Oswald did it but nobody saw him at any point. And becasue we know Oswald did it then the only explanation for not being witnessed is that he must have been careful." Obviously. I mean what other possible explanation could there be?

If you were on a jury in a similar case would it not create 'reasonable doubt' if the accused wasn't seen with the weapon - neither before, during or after the event - and wasn't seen at any point by anyone in the location he me was supposed to be in either? You don't think that creates doubt?

Ah, but you will probably say "No. Not if all the other evidence points to his guilt" But in the JFK murder all the other 'evidence' against Oswald is even flimsier than this!

Taken one at a time and in isolation a LNer will take any single aspect (Tippit, the gun, the arrest etc...) and grind the obvious glaring doubts into an almost plausable stew. For the first time reader it may even re-enforce the media distortion that Oswald did it. That is their goal.

As for the dump...I don't believe he or anyone else was ever asked by the WC. (That's Warren Commission not Water Closet)

Edited by Bernie Laverick
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... As for the dump...I don't believe he or anyone else was ever asked by the WC. (That's Warren Commission not Water Closet)

Ah, but at least one witness testified to this effect. Do you know who it was?

:ph34r:

:ice

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The amount of improbabilities piled up on that package are astronomical. ...

It is not the improbabilities that matter. They cannot prove a negative. The question is, must be, and always has been what probably happened, based on known facts. Unfortunately for the bag, the only facts that exist do not suggest ways by which it came into Oswald's possession and how it was used. No supporting facts? Then why even consider the evidence?

It's a pity we can't have a judge in this case who can be petitioned to exclude evidence. Once excluded, it can never legitimately be referred to by the litigants; it's "outta there" for good.

(Of course, when the party petitioning for its exclusion repeatedly brings it up, the item or issue may well find itself back in evidence. Sort of like when we hear someone intone that "Oswald couldn't have gotten to 10th & Patton in time," and then carries on by asking why Oswald "took so long to get to the theater" from a place he'd "never" been!)

... Who sent the Paines the bag after the fact? The package the cops tried to lie about, and then placed a phony rubber return address on, an address that does not exist? Does anyone beleive Oswald sent himself a bag?

Maybe Baker.

Those who are or carry any kind of real or perceived "authority" should avoid such baseless speculation. We don't need another "fact" about Baker - who never demonstrably even saw the bag - doing something that can't be construed on him beyond his being a Dallas cop.

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... As for the dump...I don't believe he or anyone else was ever asked by the WC. (That's Warren Commission not Water Closet)

Ah, but at least one witness testified to this effect. Do you know who it was?

:ph34r:

:ice

I am more intrigued by why it was asked than who volunteered it!

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... Who sent the Paines the bag after the fact? The package the cops tried to lie about, and then placed a phony rubber return address on, an address that does not exist? Does anyone beleive Oswald sent himself a bag?

Maybe Baker.

Those who are or carry any kind of real or perceived "authority" should avoid such baseless speculation. We don't need another "fact" about Baker - who never demonstrably even saw the bag - doing something that can't be construed on him beyond his being a Dallas cop.

It seemed to me Jim was referring to a Forum member named Baker - not Marion Baker. Maybe I'm wrong.

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... Who sent the Paines the bag after the fact? The package the cops tried to lie about, and then placed a phony rubber return address on, an address that does not exist? Does anyone beleive Oswald sent himself a bag?

Maybe Baker.

Those who are or carry any kind of real or perceived "authority" should avoid such baseless speculation. We don't need another "fact" about Baker - who never demonstrably even saw the bag - doing something that can't be construed on him beyond his being a Dallas cop.

It seemed to me Jim was referring to a Forum member named Baker - not Marion Baker. Maybe I'm wrong.

You're probably right. My bad.

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... As for the dump...I don't believe he or anyone else was ever asked by the WC. (That's Warren Commission not Water Closet)

Ah, but at least one witness testified to this effect. Do you know who it was?

I am more intrigued by why it was asked than who volunteered it!

It wasn't asked; it was volunteered, but only subtly, i.e., in terms of using the men's room to "wash up" as opposed to "taking care of business."

The telling information is when he went in to "wash up" and how much later - based upon his observations of where people were, and their separate testimonies about what they'd done prior to being in the positions that were described - he actually emerged, something like ten minutes.

Must've had very clean hands.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's an even better thread for Francois in particular.

A real simple question: when did Oswald make the decision to assassinate Kennedy?

Given that LNers, by definition, believe Oswald to be the only culprit then this surely must be their area of expertise. Surely! Students of the myriad conspiracy theories have to master several disciplines to quite a high standard (autopsy, ballistics, photography etc...) in order to fully understand the evidence. It's not easy. As we know, there are huge discepencies in how some of this evidence is translated; that is to be expected. After all there is so much of it.

But for LNers the equation is much simpler: for they just have the one discipline to master - Understand Oswald. You guys must be the experts on this one and only discipline required to solve the crime. Understand Oswald. It's all you've got to do! He's your boy! You've had half a century. Sell it! Teach us!

When did Oswald make the decision to assassinate Kennedy?

Of course, an absence of an answer, or an evasion along the lines of "It is impossible to know" will be treated as a total lack of evidence that he ever made such a decision.

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More Unanswered Questions If Oswald Did It

Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin

For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.

1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where someone must have handed him the package(s) over the counter and created some receipt.

2) Physically move the rifle from Dallas to New Orleans in April and back again in September in Mrs. Paine's station wagon and storing it in her garage without her or her husband knowing it. He had to do these things without even being present at the scene so that is pretty amazing.

3) Obtain the ammo and clip for the rifle and bullets for the pistol.

4) Obtain the brown paper wrapping paper that was said to have concealed the rifle when he brought it to the TSBD.

5) Disassemble the rifle at the Paines and reassemble the rifle at the TSBD.

6) Build the wall of book boxes that set up the Sniper's Lair in the Sixth Floor window.

7) Hide the assembled rifle somewhere in the TSBD for the hours before the assassination.

8) Get from the First Floor of the TSBD where he was last seen to the Sixth Floor.

9) Shoot the rifle from the Sixth Floor Window.

10) Hide the rifle on the Sixth Floor and descend the steps to the Second Floor in less than two minutes without being seen by Dougherty, who was standing by the elevators, and two secretaries who descended the same steps from the Fourth Floor at the same time.

11) Leave the TSBD after the assassination.

12) Change his shirt (did he change his shirt?)

13) Get from the bus stop at the corner outside his rooming house to 10th and Patton.

14) Get from 10th and Patton to the Texas Theater (was that him? Or Get from the rooming house to the Texas Theater.

15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

Bill, I believe that your #3 is probably the lynchpin of the entire LN dilemma. The WC, despite their extensive analysis of where, when, and how Oswald spent his money in 1962-62, could not show where, when, or how he obtained ammunition for the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle. NO ONE at ANY of the Dallas-area gun shops claims to have sold the ammo to Oswald, despite an extensive FBI search. Oswald didn't order any ammunition from Klein's at the time the rifle was ordered. No one in New Orleans came forward with information that Oswald purchased any ammunition there, despite individuals coming forward with stories about Oswald that were much more strange and bizarre. Now, if Oswald had the ammo in his possession and loaded it into a stripper clip, why weren't Oswald's fingerprints found on the spent cartridges? [Maybe Capt. Fritz's handling of the cartidges destroyed that evidence?]

No, the truth is, no LN'er can prove that Oswald ever had any ammunition for the MC. Of course, if Ozzie was a straw buyer, psooibly for the Dodd committee, no ammo in Oswald's hands is necessary. The only person who needed to have ammunition for the MC would be the person who MAY have set Ozzie up as the patsy.

For that matter, why weren't Ozzie's prints found anywhere on the MC besides the underside of the barrel, if it was disassembled when it came into the TSBD and Ozzie assembled it? It's pretty hard to install a barreled action into a wooden stock without handling the barrel or action ABOVE where it mounts into the stock [try it sometime!]...in fact, it's close to impossible.

But I'd just be satisfied if the LN'ers could determine where, when,and how Oswald got the ammunition for the rifle. Since they already cannot place Oswald at the southeast window of the TSBD's 6th floor with the MC in his hands at the moment the shots were fired--according to Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, no less--I doubt they'll be able to place any MC ammunition in his hands, either.

Edited by Mark Knight
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More Unanswered Questions If Oswald Did It

Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin

For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.

1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where someone must have handed him the package(s) over the counter and created some receipt.

2) Physically move the rifle from Dallas to New Orleans in April and back again in September in Mrs. Paine's station wagon and storing it in her garage without her or her husband knowing it. He had to do these things without even being present at the scene so that is pretty amazing.

3) Obtain the ammo and clip for the rifle and bullets for the pistol.

4) Obtain the brown paper wrapping paper that was said to have concealed the rifle when he brought it to the TSBD.

5) Disassemble the rifle at the Paines and reassemble the rifle at the TSBD.

6) Build the wall of book boxes that set up the Sniper's Lair in the Sixth Floor window.

7) Hide the assembled rifle somewhere in the TSBD for the hours before the assassination.

8) Get from the First Floor of the TSBD where he was last seen to the Sixth Floor.

9) Shoot the rifle from the Sixth Floor Window.

10) Hide the rifle on the Sixth Floor and descend the steps to the Second Floor in less than two minutes without being seen by Dougherty, who was standing by the elevators, and two secretaries who descended the same steps from the Fourth Floor at the same time.

11) Leave the TSBD after the assassination.

12) Change his shirt (did he change his shirt?)

13) Get from the bus stop at the corner outside his rooming house to 10th and Patton.

14) Get from 10th and Patton to the Texas Theater (was that him? Or Get from the rooming house to the Texas Theater.

15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

Bill, I believe that your #3 is probably the lynchpin of the entire LN dilemma. The WC, despite their extensive analysis of where, when, and how Oswald spent his money in 1962-62, could not show where, when, or how he obtained ammunition for the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle. NO ONE at ANY of the Dallas-area gun shops claims to have sold the ammo to Oswald, despite an extensive FBI search. Oswald didn't order any ammunition from Klein's at the time the rifle was ordered. No one in New Orleans came forward with information that Oswald purchased any ammunition there, despite individuals coming forward with stories about Oswald that were much more strange and bizarre. Now, if Oswald had the ammo in his possession and loaded it into a stripper clip, why weren't Oswald's fingerprints found on the spent cartridges? [Maybe Capt. Fritz's handling of the cartidges destroyed that evidence?]

No, the truth is, no LN'er can prove that Oswald ever had any ammunition for the MC. Of course, if Ozzie was a straw buyer, psooibly for the Dodd committee, no ammo in Oswald's hands is necessary. The only person who needed to have ammunition for the MC would be the person who MAY have set Ozzie up as the patsy.

For that matter, why weren't Ozzie's prints found anywhere on the MC besides the underside of the barrel, if it was disassembled when it came into the TSBD and Ozzie assembled it? It's pretty hard to install a barreled action into a wooden stock without handling the barrel or action ABOVE where it mounts into the stock [try it sometime!]...in fact, it's close to impossible.

But I'd just be satisfied if the LN'ers could determine where, when,and how Oswald got the ammunition for the rifle. Since they already cannot place Oswald at the southeast window of the TSBD's 6th floor with the MC in his hands at the moment the shots were fired--according to Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, no less--I doubt they'll be able to place any MC ammunition in his hands, either.

Hey Mark,

I too think the ammo is a lynchpin.

I have been informed however, that among the records of items taken from Mrs. Paine's garage there is one or possibly two empty ammo boxes. I don't know if these are .38 or 6.5 or another caliber but they were there, and if they once contained any of the bullets used to shot Walker, JFK or Tippit, I'm sure they would have assumed more signifiance in the proceedings. They are worth looking into further.

BK

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  • 4 weeks later...

More Unanswered Questions If Oswald Did It

Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin

For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.

1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where someone must have handed him the package(s) over the counter and created some receipt.

2) Physically move the rifle from Dallas to New Orleans in April and back again in September in Mrs. Paine's station wagon and storing it in her garage without her or her husband knowing it. He had to do these things without even being present at the scene so that is pretty amazing.

3) Obtain the ammo and clip for the rifle and bullets for the pistol.

4) Obtain the brown paper wrapping paper that was said to have concealed the rifle when he brought it to the TSBD.

5) Disassemble the rifle at the Paines and reassemble the rifle at the TSBD.

6) Build the wall of book boxes that set up the Sniper's Lair in the Sixth Floor window.

7) Hide the assembled rifle somewhere in the TSBD for the hours before the assassination.

8) Get from the First Floor of the TSBD where he was last seen to the Sixth Floor.

9) Shoot the rifle from the Sixth Floor Window.

10) Hide the rifle on the Sixth Floor and descend the steps to the Second Floor in less than two minutes without being seen by Dougherty, who was standing by the elevators, and two secretaries who descended the same steps from the Fourth Floor at the same time.

11) Leave the TSBD after the assassination.

12) Change his shirt (did he change his shirt?)

13) Get from the bus stop at the corner outside his rooming house to 10th and Patton.

14) Get from 10th and Patton to the Texas Theater (was that him? Or Get from the rooming house to the Texas Theater.

15) Arrange for the motorcade to drive past his Sniper's Lair during lunch hour, the only one hour window of opportunity that he had to kill the President.

Bill, I believe that your #3 is probably the lynchpin of the entire LN dilemma. The WC, despite their extensive analysis of where, when, and how Oswald spent his money in 1962-62, could not show where, when, or how he obtained ammunition for the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5mm rifle. NO ONE at ANY of the Dallas-area gun shops claims to have sold the ammo to Oswald, despite an extensive FBI search. Oswald didn't order any ammunition from Klein's at the time the rifle was ordered. No one in New Orleans came forward with information that Oswald purchased any ammunition there, despite individuals coming forward with stories about Oswald that were much more strange and bizarre. Now, if Oswald had the ammo in his possession and loaded it into a stripper clip, why weren't Oswald's fingerprints found on the spent cartridges? [Maybe Capt. Fritz's handling of the cartidges destroyed that evidence?]

No, the truth is, no LN'er can prove that Oswald ever had any ammunition for the MC. Of course, if Ozzie was a straw buyer, psooibly for the Dodd committee, no ammo in Oswald's hands is necessary. The only person who needed to have ammunition for the MC would be the person who MAY have set Ozzie up as the patsy.

For that matter, why weren't Ozzie's prints found anywhere on the MC besides the underside of the barrel, if it was disassembled when it came into the TSBD and Ozzie assembled it? It's pretty hard to install a barreled action into a wooden stock without handling the barrel or action ABOVE where it mounts into the stock [try it sometime!]...in fact, it's close to impossible.

But I'd just be satisfied if the LN'ers could determine where, when,and how Oswald got the ammunition for the rifle. Since they already cannot place Oswald at the southeast window of the TSBD's 6th floor with the MC in his hands at the moment the shots were fired--according to Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, no less--I doubt they'll be able to place any MC ammunition in his hands, either.

Hey Mark,

I too think the ammo is a lynchpin.

I have been informed however, that among the records of items taken from Mrs. Paine's garage there is one or possibly two empty ammo boxes. I don't know if these are .38 or 6.5 or another caliber but they were there, and if they once contained any of the bullets used to shot Walker, JFK or Tippit, I'm sure they would have assumed more signifiance in the proceedings. They are worth looking into further.

BK

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Here we go again.

Mister Kelly, your questions do not make sense.

You seem to suggest that if we can't prove that Lee Oswald did a few precise actions that you list, then you can somehow turn him into an innocent man.

What a poor method of getting at the truth !

You're bound to fail.

Actually, when you say (I quote) : "Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness. ... 6) Build the wall of book boxes that set up the Sniper's Lair in the Sixth Floor window." do you realize that your question only shows that you would be a very very bad investigator in any murder case ?

I mean, who cares if nobody saw him arrange the boxes ? Precisely, if he was the assassin, you can bet he made sure he was not seen.

But we do not need to find a picture of him arranging the boxes to conclude he is guilty of the assassination.

But you don't get it, do you ?

For instance, it is a fact that O.J. Simpson killed his wife, in June 1994, and everybody agrees. Even Jim Fetzer said on Black Op radio that the evidence against O.J. Simpson is very strong.

But I suppose you need a set of color pictures of Simpson stabbing Nicole Brown to believe he is guilty. Better yet, you probably wish you had a high-quality movie.

And since you don't have that movie of Simpson killing his wife, you could ask something like this in a forum : "Things Simpson Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness. ... 6) stab his wife."

Well, that's true, we do not have any record or witness. So he must be innocent, right ?

Well, I guess you will always live in your dreams. In your own error-laden world. Well, at least you're not alone, you have bad-faith guys such as Laverick to accompany you.

Poor men !

/F.C./

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