Dealey Plaza Echo

[Greg Parker]

I have real doubts concerning this photograph:

Compared to the Oswald that most of us are familiar with:

There are others as well.

Hi Lee,

I don't have any problem saying that I think they are one and the same person.

People change and photos deceive.

Photo evidence will never provide proof that there were two Oswalds, though perhaps there are photos of those who intentionally impersonated Oswald at various times after his defection.

BK

I agree, Bill. Photos can deceive. That is why I simply have doubts and remain unconvinced. I wasn't posting the photographs as an endorsement of any theory because I've yet to make up my mind.

We really do not know what was truly going on with Oswald during his time in the Soviet Union but I do have a quick question. How convinced are you that Oswald was "fluent" in the Russian language before he entered the USSR?

Lee,

When Oswald was hospitalized in the USSR for Otitis Media, there was a secondary diagnosis of ascariasis - round worm infestation.

http://www.maryferre...5&relPageId=464

"Signs of infection include less conclusive symptoms such as a runny nose, nighttime restlessness and blisters on the lower lip inside the mouth. If you become infected, be prepared for a rough time. Infected individuals may feel bloated, tired and hungry. They may have allergies, anemia, lethargy, fuzzy thinking, headaches and roller coastering blood sugar levels. They may experience restlessness, hair loss, diarrhea, arthritis, mineral imbalances and nighttime teeth grinding. One or more symptoms may occur to a greater or lesser degree depending upon the individual.

http://www.diagnose-...nd/C171466.html

The treatment may also have resulted in hair loss.

I came across the above while looking for this report from a psychiatrist at Bodkin Hospital:

"A few days ago the patient arrived in the Soviet Union in order to apply for our citizenship. Today he was to have left the Soviet Union. In order to postpone his departure he inflicted the injury upon himself. The patient apparently understands the questions asked in Russian. Sometimes he answers correctly, but immediately states he does not understand what he was asked..."

http://www.maryferre...5&relPageId=484

I think my hair is beginning to fall out just trying to get my head around all this, Greg.

In Alaric's DPE piece, do you think he has a point that the Oswald photographs taken at CAP and in his first year in the Marine's do not completely marry up with the 1959 Oswald that went to the USSR? I know people change, but there is something distinctly not right with all of this.

Lee, I repeat, I understand he looks different, but there are any number of reasons why this might be without going down the Yellow Brick Road. People do change. I changed in looks markedly between 17 and 19. A change to a healthy diet and lots of regular exercise and I went from being a baby-faced toneless kid living on alcohol and junk food to a taut, brown, thinner more muscular 19 yo who only vaguely looked like the person I had been two years earlier. If I had the time to dig out the photos proving it, I would - but the changes are no less than you see in Oswald. While living in Darwin, the city was regularly invaded by young Marines on leave. All the ones around Oswald's age (iow, probably fresh out of boot camp) had one thing in common: bull necks.

In short -- I'd prefer to rule out all the normal reasons why someone may look different in different photos eg, were they going through a growth spurt; did they have any medical conditions in one and not the other; lighting conditions; angle photo taken at etc etc... If others want to discard all that and go straight to "it must mean two Oswald's" so be it.

In addition to the hair loss, I think I may need an eye test.

I do take your point concerning the language and his knowledge of the language but it doesn't answer whether he was truly fluent and that he also had the ability to read and write in Russian in the relatively short time frame he was "studying".

And I take yours. Or at least, I think I do. Oswald may have learned enough to be pretty good, but far from perfect, by the time he left for Russia. Once in Russia, he sticks to English - at least for a while. Then by the time he meets Marina, he sounds like a native Polish speaker of the language (as opposed to a native English speaker of Russian) . THis could mean he was switched for someone else in that intervening period - or hanging out with that Polish Jew, Ziger was the ultimate emersion technique - and if he had AS, whould explain his having the same accent as Ziger no doubt had.

[Greg Parker]

I jumped on here because I thought you and Greg were discounting and being unfair to Alaric. That is all.

Jim,

here is how you opened you response:

I am so sick and tired of people who either have not read Armstrong's book, or who are intent on being unfair to it going ahead and pontificating on what is in it and how he arrived at his conclusions.

You simply cannot reduce nearly a thousand pages of (generally) new research into a forum post.

But now this tendency branches out to go after articles that agree with John.

You're using a perceived slight against Alaric in order to "defend" Armstrong.

Here was my opening post:

If I understand Aleric correctly, he is NOT supporting a second Oswald. Rather, he is saying that Oswald's background as we have in the records, is one constructed for a "legend".

Aleric is closer to the facts than Armstrong. Where I disagree is that I believe his background, as given, is reasonably accurate. There were just one or two key elements withheld from his history at key points in time for a very specific reason.

As far as his language ability goes... we don't need doppelgangers or false legends to explains it.

This explains it quite well:

Asperger's and Learning Foreign Languages

"Sometimes the person with Asperger's Syndrome can have a natural talent and special interest in foreign languages. The person can acquire the ability to speak many languages without the pronunciation errors expected when a typical person from a specific home country learns that language. For example, when an Englishman learns French, a Native of France can easily detect that the speaker's first language is English. When a person with Asperger's Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker. This can lead to a successful career in languages such as a translator or interpreter."

(Source: The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome By Tony Attwood p 225)

http://reopenkennedy...s-than-dyslexia

I was saying I believe his 2008 theory was closer to the truth than Armstrong's, so please explain where and how I was being unfair to Alaric.

Never mind.

I must have been. You said so. And I'm sure Michael will agree with you. Case closed.

Hi Greg

I have a couple of problems with the Asperger's theory you put forth. First of all I know a few people who have Asperger's Syndrome. One of them is the son of a guy I work with every day. Now I don't know whether Asperger's is professionally considered a disorder that has a spectrum of acuity

Lee, stop right there.

Yes, it is a spectrum disorder.

This is a list of people known or suspected of having AS

http://en.wikipedia....ctrum_disorders

This kid has AS

You're unlucky. You have been bitten by 3 dogs. But even 3 doesn't mean all dogs bite. High functioning aspies work in all sorts of jobs without problem.

Yes, if he had it, it was without diagnosis, support or treatment. But if, as I suspect, he was a high functioning aspie, it may have been a positive. For instance, he would not have it as an excuse, he would not have the stigma, and he would learn instinctively to compensate - not perfectly in all instances - but enough in key areas to get by. A high functioning aspie, I believe, could do all that Oswald did - and (imo) it probably helped in some instances.

but I wouldn't be misplaced in saying that my friend's son would be the last person that any intelligence agency would use as a tool in gathering information. The primary reason is because if he was in Oswald's position, prior to leaving for the Soviet Union, he would more than likely be pacing up and down the gangplank in a heightened state of confusion and anxiety due to his routine being messed up. Now, when I say "routine" I mean a cast-iron and unbreakable "routine". My friend's son becomes severely agitated (incredibly emotionally upset) if his father is late home from work by even a single minute. For the record, the lad is currently 18 years old.

I have interviewed 2 people with Asperger's for employment in my company over the last couple of years. Both of them failed the interview because of their distinct lack of ability to communicate in what we would describe as an orthodox manner. It's very difficult to connect on a social/emotional level with somebody with Asperger's and they have a very literal way of speaking and interpreting what is said to them. You can physically feel the tension and anxiety that is being generated by taking them away from their comfort zone. I don't get the impression from how people describe Oswald that he had any such difficulty and if he did he would be the last person I'd put in a position to interviewed by the KGB or the NKVD. I'm sure most people with Asperger's would become an emotional wreck after half an hour.

I understand what you are saying about the language ability and ability to pick up new languages but I'm of the current thought that the condition brings about other very acute behaviours that would exclude Oswald from being at the top of anyone's list for intelligence work. Because it is the issue of routines that, IMO, would scupper what we know Oswald actually did, and how he did it. I don't believe anyone with Asperger's would have managed to leave the U.S., never mind get into the USSR. If we factor in the issue that Asperger's was unknown in the 1950' and he would have gone through his life not only undiagnosed but also without any sort of therapy then I really believe that an Asperger's Oswald would have ended with a completely different life than we know the historical Oswald had.

Just my two cents

Lee

Edited September 26, 2011 by Greg Parker

[William Kelly]

I have real doubts concerning this photograph:

Compared to the Oswald that most of us are familiar with:

There are others as well.

Hi Lee,

I don't have any problem saying that I think they are one and the same person.

People change and photos deceive.

Photo evidence will never provide proof that there were two Oswalds, though perhaps there are photos of those who intentionally impersonated Oswald at various times after his defection.

BK

I agree, Bill. Photos can deceive. That is why I simply have doubts and remain unconvinced. I wasn't posting the photographs as an endorsement of any theory because I've yet to make up my mind.

We really do not know what was truly going on with Oswald during his time in the Soviet Union but I do have a quick question. How convinced are you that Oswald was "fluent" in the Russian language before he entered the USSR?

Well I just read the article in the DPE that quotes Ms. Quinn as saying he was pretty good, and after he got there he fooled Marina, so I'd say based on just those two witnesses that he was pretty good at it.

And I don't think that is explained by him being exchanged for a namesake lookalike who really did speak Russian fluently as a native.

I think he wanted to learn the language, was determined to do so, took it on as a mission, was encouraged to do so, and was helped considerably by others in the US military who facilitated his learning, probably those connected with the Defense Language Institute at Monterey who were responsible for doing exactly that for those about to deploy on overseas missions.

BK

So is it possible that rather than being "fluent" like a native upon arrival on Soviet soil he could have instead been proficient or knew enough? A bit like me when I go to France? Then during the first year he got better due to being immersed and surrounded by the language?

I'm going from memory here but during his initial time in the USSR didn't most people say he kept his mouth (Russian language) tightly shut? Almost as if he was not wanting anyone to know he actually spoke the language.

Do we not have to take into consideration that he'd been in Russia for a year and a half before he met Marina?

I am intruiged by Alaric's article and really struggle to believe that Oswald could have taught himself Russian to a fluent level by 1959. When we say he was fluent, we are also stating that he could read and, more importantly, write in the language. I'm sure we'll all agree that the writing adds a difficulty variable that adds more confusion to the matters at hand?

You are intrigued by Alaric's article and struggle to believe Oswald could have taught himself Russian to be a fluent level by 1959 - yet Alaric ignores and you discount what I think is the answer - that he didn't teach himself, but was taught the language by US military specialists from the Defense Language Institute, as Lee J. Rankin mentioned in the course of a secret Warren Commission meeting.

And yes, more importantly, he learned to write the language - as he took a written test given to him by the US Marine Corps - and was scored at 50% - meaning he got half right and half wrong, which was pretty good for a beginner, especially one who taught himself. Or did he?

While I agree with Greg, that Oswald may have had some innate ability to learn languages, especially when he applied himself, I think he had help, a lot of help, and he got it when he was in the USMC, and he kept how he learned a secret, because it was a secret - the Defense Language Institute off site Immersion program.

I also believe that the Dealey Plaza operation was affiliated with other covert programs - such as Paperclip, JMWAVE, MKULTRA and the U2, and a study of those programs will give insight and show relationships and common personnel among them.

In that regard - besides Oswald's possible affiliation with the Defense Language Institute, we have two other serious suspects - Ralph Meyers having been a student there, as well as Richard Case Nagel.

Unlike the theory that Oswald was substituted by another person who was native speaker of Russian, the Defense Language Institute leads to a place with records, people and a history that may shed light on what we want to learn.

But apparently nobody wants to go there.

BK

Edited September 26, 2011 by William Kelly

[William Kelly]

You are intrigued by Alaric's article and struggle to believe Oswald could have taught himself Russian to be a fluent level by 1959 - yet Alaric ignores and you discount what I think is the answer - that he didn't teach himself, but was taught the language by US military specialists from the Defense Language Institute, as Lee J. Rankin mentioned in the course of a secret Warren Commission meeting.

And yes, more importantly, he learned to write the language - as he took a written test given to him by the US Marine Corps - and was scored at 50% - meaning he got half right and half wrong, which was pretty good for a beginner, especially one who taught himself. Or did he?

While I agree with Greg, that Oswald may have had some innate ability to learn languages, especially when he applied himself, I think he had help, a lot of help, and he got it when he was in the USMC, and he kept how he learned a secret, because it was a secret - the Defense Language Institute off site Immersion program.

I also believe that the Dealey Plaza operation was affiliated with other covert programs - such as Paperclip, JMWAVE, MKULTRA and the U2, and a study of those programs will give insight and show relationships and common personnel among them.

In that regard - besides Oswald's possible affiliation with the Defense Language Institute, we have two other serious suspects - Ralph Meyers having been a student there, as well as Richard Case Nagel.

Unlike the theory that Oswald was substituted by another person who was native speaker of Russian, the Defense Language Institute leads to a place with records, people and a history that may shed light on what we want to learn.

But apparently nobody wants to go there.

BK

Maybe this is speculation on my part, and I'm not going against anything you have said because I think you have summed your feelings up quite well, Bill, but surely somebody with an innate ability to learn languages would have at least demonstrated this initially at school and there is very little evidence to suggest that this "talent" was ever identified. I know he shifted schools quite a bit but a talent is a talent. If you show talent with a baseball, it doesn't matter how many schools you attend, someone will pick up on it.

In contrast, Robert Oswald (and I know I'm putting faith in his testimony here), supports the notion that he never demonstrated any interest in languages. Now I know interest in not the same as talent but most people instinctively follow and maintain a degree of interest in the things they show some proficiency at.

And, I'd like to add, if he was to pick up a language using this "innate" ability, then surely the first one would have been Japanese and there is no evidence he had ever picked this up even though he was stationed there for over a year.

Nothing I say detracts or undermines what you have written, my mind is just throwing these questions up.

And I think the questions you are throwing up can and should be answered.

Okay, so we all agree it is hard to learn any language and especially hard to learn Russian, and I think his brother Robert is a good source, and Oswald never expressed any interest in it when they were together, but at some point when he was in the USMC Oswald decided he wanted to learn Russian and took it up with a passion, made it a very strong and determined mission and accomplished this difficult task.

Now I'm not saying he had any innate abilities and people are different, some find it easy to pick up languages and dialects and some people with disabilities like dyslexiya and Aspergers find it more difficult or easier to do so.

The question you and others have asked is how did he do it, and I think he had help from the USMC language specialists, while others suggest more radical alternatives like there were two different Oswalds.

Those who say there were two Oswalds point to his abilities in Russian and other similar incidents, and then say we'll never know, while I say that every conflicting incident should be more carefully examined to determine who were are talking about, and that there is a logical and reasonable answer to how Oswald learned the language in the Marines.

And I'd like to hear back from Alaric as to why he didn't know about or didn't mention the possibility of Oswald being trained by a Russian language tutor from the Defense Language Institute?

[Greg Parker]

You're unlucky. You have been bitten by 3 dogs. But even 3 doesn't mean all dogs bite. High functioning aspies work in all sorts of jobs without problem.

Yes, if he had it, it was without diagnosis, support or treatment. But if, as I suspect, he was a high functioning aspie, it may have been a positive. For instance, he would not have it as an excuse, he would not have the stigma, and he would learn instinctively to compensate - not perfectly in all instances - but enough in key areas to get by. A high functioning aspie, I believe, could do all that Oswald did - and (imo) it probably helped in some instances.

but I wouldn't be misplaced in saying that my friend's son would be the last person that any intelligence agency would use as a tool in gathering information. The primary reason is because if he was in Oswald's position, prior to leaving for the Soviet Union, he would more than likely be pacing up and down the gangplank in a heightened state of confusion and anxiety due to his routine being messed up. Now, when I say "routine" I mean a cast-iron and unbreakable "routine". My friend's son becomes severely agitated (incredibly emotionally upset) if his father is late home from work by even a single minute. For the record, the lad is currently 18 years old.

Hi Greg

In order to take this forward not only do we have to diagnose him as having Asperger's, but we have to diagnose him as having high functioning Apsergers when the following excerpt comes from Aspergers.net:

"High functioning Aspergers Syndrome

One of the most disturbing aspects of Higher Functioning children with Aspergers (HFA) is their clumsy, nerdish social skills. Though they want to be accepted by their peers, they tend to be very hurt and frustrated by their lack of social success.

Their ability to respond is confounded by the negative feedback that these children get from their painful social interactions. This greatly magnifies their social problems. Like any of us, when we get negative feedback, we become unhappy. This further inhibits their social skills, and a vicious circle develops. The worse they perform socially, the more negative feedback they get, so the worse they feel and perform.

As this feedback loop iterates, dealing with social situations for Aspergers children become similar to spending their social life on stage anxiously giving a speech. And, for the same reasons that such speeches come off clumsy, with a mechanical sounding voice, stiff gestures and forgotten lines and a turned off the audience is the same reason HFA kids fumble socially and are rejected. Because of this consistent negative social feedback, many of these children feel depressed, anxious and angry. This just compounds their social difficulties by further paralyzing them in social situations.

Reading social Cues

Though they do not appear to read social situations well, HFA children actually do .

One of my articulate patients put it well.

"I find I'm able to read people really well, but I usually don't respond accordingly."

Though in real time social situations, HFA's may look and feel as if they do not understand what to do, that is not the real issue. Like the person who practices a speech until they sound like Cicero, but freezes on stage, it is not that they do not have the skills to give the speech. They have clearly demonstrated these skills and knowledge during practice. However, their emotional arousal keeps them from accessing their skills real time. Most Aspergers children can explain what they need to do in social situations, thus demonstrating their knowledge. However, like the public speaker, they cannot demonstrate it in the real situation."

From his time in the CAP, to his time in the Marines, to his relationships in the USSR, I just don't see this in Oswald. I think the record shows that Oswald was sociable and he did make friends quite easily, and he adapted to emotional situations incredibly well. The "legend" that he couldn't is simply a post-assassination smokescreen. I'm sorry, Greg, I don't buy it. I just don't see an Asperger's Oswald, and even more-so an untreated HFA Oswald, being able to cope with the pressures that a fake defection to the USSR brought.

I hope you don't feel I'm being unfair here. I'm just telling you what I think based upon what you have proposed. I am going to duck out of the conversation now because I'm not a doctor and really am unqualified to go any further into it and this isn't a trivial matter.

I really don't know how accurate the list is you posted from Wikipedia but unless all of the people on it have been diagnosed accurately and we know the reasons why they were diagnosed then the list isn't really worth very much. It says at the top that some have been diagnosed, some suspected as being diagnosed, and some inaccurately diagnosed as having either autism or Aspergers. But we don't know what behaviours and aspects of the condition they displayed.

Best regards

Lee

Lee,

I'm sorry you feel the need to duck out of it. Whilst a medical degree would be handy, researching possible medical conditions in historical figures is no different to researching any other facet of a person's life . The same rules and skills apply. Another handy thing is insight, and you have that in abundance.

I don't for a minute think you are being unfair to me. You at least made some effort to look at it and into it.

This is from the same website you have referred to above.

Both Newton and Einstein exhibited three key symptoms of High functioning Aspergers (HFA) syndrome: obsessive interests, difficulty in social relationships, and problems communicating.

Newton seems like a classic case. He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat, and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had. If no one turned up to his lectures, he gave them anyway, talking to an empty room. He had a nervous breakdown at 50, brought on by depression and paranoia.

Repeated sentences

As a child, Einstein was also a loner, and repeated sentences obsessively until he was seven years old. He became a notoriously confusing lecturer. And in spite of this, he made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and was outspoken on political issues.

Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly compatible with Aspergers syndrome.. What people with HFA difficult is casual chatting - they can't do small-talk.

Einstein had a good sense of humor, a trait that is virtually unknown in people with severe AS, but common with HFA.

There may be certain niches in society where people with HFA can flourish for their strengths rather than their social skills. This condition can make people depressed or suicidal, so if we can find out how to make things easier for them, that's worthwhile.

Remember, in this high tech era, many nerds cry all the way to the bank.

http://www.aspergers...et/einstein.htm

Edited September 26, 2011 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Lee, I repeat, I understand he looks different, but there are any number of reasons why this might be without going down the Yellow Brick Road. People do change. I changed in looks markedly between 17 and 19. A change to a healthy diet and lots of regular exercise and I went from being a baby-faced toneless kid living on alcohol and junk food to a taut, brown, thinner more muscular 19 yo who only vaguely looked like the person I had been two years earlier. If I had the time to dig out the photos proving it, I would - but the changes are no less than you see in Oswald. While living in Darwin, the city was regularly invaded by young Marines on leave. All the ones around Oswald's age (iow, probably fresh out of boot camp) had one thing in common: bull necks.

In short -- I'd prefer to rule out all the normal reasons why someone may look different in different photos eg, were they going through a growth spurt; did they have any medical conditions in one and not the other; lighting conditions; angle photo taken at etc etc... If others want to discard all that and go straight to "it must mean two Oswald's" so be it.

Greg, I'm not for one minute claiming there were two Oswald's. I think I've been quite clear that I don't know what all this means. I think I'm one of the only people in the small debate who is claiming he doesn't know what it all means. I've simply claimed that I have doubts concerning some of the photographs. Other members claim they don't have the same doubts - I'm cool with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone here.

But would any of us be shocked to eventually find out there was something at play concerning swapping people during this incredibly strange period of time in human history? I doubt any of us would be knocked off our chairs. I mean, once you know some of the things that were happening connected to MKULTRA, then nothing can really shock you from that point forward, surely?

But the fact is we simply don't know - which is why we are still stuck as to why this guy could learn a language so quickly and why his own brothers said they didn't recognise him when he returned to the United States, and his own mother claimed his entire personality and demeanour had changed.

You know that I appreciate the work you do here on this forum and the insights you have given me but it isn't just the photographic record that has people doubts raised here, Greg. I just wish we could debate these things calmy and not have the conversations deteriorate into a Lifton/Fetzer division. You don't have to say "I repeat" like you feel I'm not getting you - it doesn't read too nice. I think this has been a good thread so far. Barry only posted a link to a new copy of DPE. So let's keep it polite and tight and I'm sure we'll all learn something.

Regards

Lee

Lee, sorry if I caused offence. None was meant. On the contrary, I was concerned to ensure you knew I was not dismissing your concerns out of hand. I also fully understand and appreciate that you are not supporting any particular solution. My comments about looking at all possibilities regarding photos was aimed at those who jump to the two Oswald solution without regard for other possibilities.

Could Oswald have been swapped just prior to, or during his Soviet sojourn? Sure. I do think that is possible. But at birth with multiple Marguerites?

For those True Believers... which one had Otitis Media... or did they both have it.

Because the one who had a mastoidectomy at age 5 had it.

The one who was at YH had it.

The one who turned up in Family Court had it.

The one in the Marines had it.

The one who entered hospital in Minsk had it.

[Michael Hogan]

That you are more interested in discussing what you claim is an error on my part rather than a complete non sequitur response from Jim, says it all. Your claim that I made an error is based on your own mistaken belief that there is no difference between conclusions in the most recent article compared to the 2008 one. (italics added; see below, mh) I wasn't even aware of the latter one when I made my first post. I searched for the article referenced by Robert and landed on the 2008 one somehow.

......In quoting from a 2010 article, you have introduced material not referenced by me, nor material that I was even aware of. I did not know that Alaric had revisited the same theme and assumed the article I read was the one Robert was talking about.

Robert Howard provided the subject matter and title of the article he was talking about. He was referring to the article that was in the issue of Dealey Plaza Echo that was the topic of this thread:

Thanks, Barry. I've just started to really go through these issue's in earnest..and always look forward to the latest... Great job, as always.

Alaric Rosman's article on Rosaleen Quinn, [Rosaleen Quinn, A Clue to The Assassination] is required reading, and in my estimation, definitively establishes there were two Oswald's, independently of John Armstrong's work.

Robert

In the post of mine that you replied to, I referenced both articles and gave their titles:

Alaric Rosman's 2010 Dealey Plaza Echo article is titled: Rosaleen Quinn - A Clue to the Assassination. The title of a talk he presented on April 17, 2010 was worded a little more strongly: Rosaleen Quinn: "The Key to the Assassination"

In the November 2008 issue of DPE Rosman contributed an article titled: Evidence That Oswald was a Natural Russian Speaker. In 2008 this was obviously a work-in-progress for Rosman.

Greg Parker has quoted some of Rosman's comments on Armstrong, but he has done so incompletely and misleadingly. I'm not surprised.

How was I, or anyone else, to know that you had not read the 2010 article - was not even aware it existed?

As to your contention that I have "a mistaken belief that there is no difference between conclusions in the most recent article compared to the 2008 one," I've bolded what I initially wrote above.

[Greg Parker]

Lee,

I'm sorry you feel the need to duck out of it. Whilst a medical degree would be handy, researching possible medical conditions in historical figures is no different to researching any other facet of a person's life . The same rules and skills apply. Another handy thing is insight, and you have that in abundance.

I don't for a minute think you are being unfair to me. You at least made some effort to look at it and into it.

This is from the same website you have referred to above.

Both Newton and Einstein exhibited three key symptoms of High functioning Aspergers (HFA) syndrome: obsessive interests, difficulty in social relationships, and problems communicating.

Newton seems like a classic case. He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat, and was lukewarm or bad-tempered with the few friends he had. If no one turned up to his lectures, he gave them anyway, talking to an empty room. He had a nervous breakdown at 50, brought on by depression and paranoia.

Repeated sentences

As a child, Einstein was also a loner, and repeated sentences obsessively until he was seven years old. He became a notoriously confusing lecturer. And in spite of this, he made intimate friends, had numerous affairs and was outspoken on political issues.

Passion, falling in love and standing up for justice are all perfectly compatible with Aspergers syndrome.. What people with HFA difficult is casual chatting - they can't do small-talk.

Einstein had a good sense of humor, a trait that is virtually unknown in people with severe AS, but common with HFA.

There may be certain niches in society where people with HFA can flourish for their strengths rather than their social skills. This condition can make people depressed or suicidal, so if we can find out how to make things easier for them, that's worthwhile.

Remember, in this high tech era, many nerds cry all the way to the bank.

http://www.aspergers...et/einstein.htm

No worries, Greg. I just don't want the thread to turn into another battle royale. I could feel the mood changing.

I'm sure there are both pros, like the excerpt you cite, that support this argument, and cons, like the excerpt I cited, that go against it.

Lee, the thing is, we were not using different sources. It was the same source.

One thing is for certain, Einstein and Newton do not compare to Lee Oswald as far as high functioning goes. And I wouldn't be sending either Al or Issac on a false defector programme.

Nor would I ask Oswald to explain the laws of physics. I believe the key sentence in what I quoted is "There may be certain niches in society where people with HFA can flourish for their strengths rather than their social skills." I don't believe anyone with this condition should be pigeon-holed regarding abilities. And just as in the general population, when interests collide with innate abilities, anything is possible.

And since no one knew he had the condition because of its lack of recognition in the US (if indeed, he did have it), it could not be held against him. All that would be noted would be some of the qualities being sought -- language ability; ability to keep secrets; ability to immerse oneself in intense study (how many 15 year olds memorize the marine manual?). Other qualities as well - not all of them positive ones in normal work-places. The mission Oswald was on deliberately avoided using the stereotypical agent - eg a Harvard graduate. They wanted someone with LHO's background albeit with a tweak or two. He had been trained/tested for his mission at Tugagues. Delivering messages and other items. Keeping a low profile. "Messenger/delivery clerk" should have been his MOS in the Marines.

Dan Ackroyd on the other hand...

Thanks for the bruises and you can keep the stool sample.

I'll look into it more tomorrow. I only saw your reply before where you posted the picture of one of your lads. Cute kid, dude. But I knew it was him in both photos.

It was only the difference in hair that I was using it for.

Or was it? Because I know you have twins! Bah!

They're chalk and cheese.

[Greg Parker]

Lee, I repeat, I understand he looks different, but there are any number of reasons why this might be without going down the Yellow Brick Road. People do change. I changed in looks markedly between 17 and 19. A change to a healthy diet and lots of regular exercise and I went from being a baby-faced toneless kid living on alcohol and junk food to a taut, brown, thinner more muscular 19 yo who only vaguely looked like the person I had been two years earlier. If I had the time to dig out the photos proving it, I would - but the changes are no less than you see in Oswald. While living in Darwin, the city was regularly invaded by young Marines on leave. All the ones around Oswald's age (iow, probably fresh out of boot camp) had one thing in common: bull necks.

In short -- I'd prefer to rule out all the normal reasons why someone may look different in different photos eg, were they going through a growth spurt; did they have any medical conditions in one and not the other; lighting conditions; angle photo taken at etc etc... If others want to discard all that and go straight to "it must mean two Oswald's" so be it.

Greg, I'm not for one minute claiming there were two Oswald's. I think I've been quite clear that I don't know what all this means. I think I'm one of the only people in the small debate who is claiming he doesn't know what it all means. I've simply claimed that I have doubts concerning some of the photographs. Other members claim they don't have the same doubts - I'm cool with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone here.

But would any of us be shocked to eventually find out there was something at play concerning swapping people during this incredibly strange period of time in human history? I doubt any of us would be knocked off our chairs. I mean, once you know some of the things that were happening connected to MKULTRA, then nothing can really shock you from that point forward, surely?

But the fact is we simply don't know - which is why we are still stuck as to why this guy could learn a language so quickly and why his own brothers said they didn't recognise him when he returned to the United States, and his own mother claimed his entire personality and demeanour had changed.

You know that I appreciate the work you do here on this forum and the insights you have given me but it isn't just the photographic record that has people doubts raised here, Greg. I just wish we could debate these things calmy and not have the conversations deteriorate into a Lifton/Fetzer division. You don't have to say "I repeat" like you feel I'm not getting you - it doesn't read too nice. I think this has been a good thread so far. Barry only posted a link to a new copy of DPE. So let's keep it polite and tight and I'm sure we'll all learn something.

Regards

Lee

L

ee, sorry if I caused offence. None was meant. On the contrary, I was concerned to ensure you knew I was not dismissing your concerns out of hand. I also fully understand and appreciate that you are not supporting any particular solution. My comments about looking at all possibilities regarding photos was aimed at those who jump to the two Oswald solution without regard for other possibilities.

Could Oswald have been swapped just prior to, or during his Soviet sojourn? Sure. I do think that is possible. But at birth with multiple Marguerites?

For those True Believers... which one had Otitis Media... or did they both have it.

Because the one who had a mastoidectomy at age 5 had it.

The one who was at YH had it.

The one who turned up in Family Court had it.

The one in the Marines had it.

The one who entered hospital in Minsk had it.

Fair points, Greg.

Quick off the cuff, left-field question; do you think it possible that the Oswald family were part of an MKULTRA programme?

Lee, I believe John Pic was involved in one of the Subprojects dealing with Hungarian refugees and that he and/or another got Marguerite - possibly unwittingly - involved to the extent of delivering Lee for evaluation.

This is from Dick Russell's last book:

At an international Summer School in Maine, a series of special studies in communications skills was conducted. There, 11 year old boys and girls who spoke different languages would sit down and "interview" each other. A CIA Memorandum of November 4, 1959 made brief mention of Subproject 103's hidden agenda: to assist in the identification of promising young foreign nationals and US nationals (many of whom are now in their late teens) who may at any time be of direct interest to the company.

That by way of example to show kids being identified for future use. In the wash-up, I do not believe Oswald was acting for the CIA when he went to Russia; I think it was for Ike's Special Group with support provided by the CIA Russian Division. That may have changed once over there...

[Greg Parker]

That you are more interested in discussing what you claim is an error on my part rather than a complete non sequitur response from Jim, says it all. Your claim that I made an error is based on your own mistaken belief that there is no difference between conclusions in the most recent article compared to the 2008 one. (italics added; see below, mh) I wasn't even aware of the latter one when I made my first post. I searched for the article referenced by Robert and landed on the 2008 one somehow.

......In quoting from a 2010 article, you have introduced material not referenced by me, nor material that I was even aware of. I did not know that Alaric had revisited the same theme and assumed the article I read was the one Robert was talking about.

Robert Howard provided the subject matter and title of the article he was talking about. He was referring to the article that was in the issue of Dealey Plaza Echo that was the topic of this thread:

Thanks, Barry. I've just started to really go through these issue's in earnest..and always look forward to the latest... Great job, as always.

Alaric Rosman's article on Rosaleen Quinn, [Rosaleen Quinn, A Clue to The Assassination] is required reading, and in my estimation, definitively establishes there were two Oswald's, independently of John Armstrong's work.

Robert

In the post of mine that you replied to, I referenced both articles and gave their titles:

Alaric Rosman's 2010 Dealey Plaza Echo article is titled: Rosaleen Quinn - A Clue to the Assassination. The title of a talk he presented on April 17, 2010 was worded a little more strongly: Rosaleen Quinn: "The Key to the Assassination"

In the November 2008 issue of DPE Rosman contributed an article titled: Evidence That Oswald was a Natural Russian Speaker. In 2008 this was obviously a work-in-progress for Rosman.

Greg Parker has quoted some of Rosman's comments on Armstrong, but he has done so incompletely and misleadingly. I'm not surprised.

How was I, or anyone else, to know that you had not read the 2010 article - was not even aware it existed?

As to your contention that I have "a mistaken belief that there is no difference between conclusions in the most recent article compared to the 2008 one," I've bolded what I initially wrote above.

1. RH did indeed mention the article by name, but did not provide a link to it. I made the mistake of just search under "Rosaleen Quinn" and assumed the first article that came up must be it. By that time, I'd forgotten what the title mentioned by Robert was.

2. You were not to know I didn't know about. That is why I told you.

3. Your statement that it was a "work in progress" is a nebulous one.

Here are the facts.

In reply to this statement by me: Aleric doesn't agree that "two Oswalds" are necessary to explain the language ability. Bill agrees with Aleric on that point. I agree with Aleric on that point. Anyone who doesn't agree that options exist, apart from Armstrong's theory, may just be too close to that theory to see past it.

You said:

Then why did Alaric Rosman title his 2008 article: Evidence That Oswald was a Natural Russian Speaker?

Why did he write this in 2011?

The evidence for the belief that Robert Oswald's kid brother Lee was not the Russian-speaking man shot by Jack Ruby does NOT solely depend on the doppelganger

evidence of John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee (great though Armstrong's work was), but is contained in Commission Exhibit 2015 and in the abundantly supportive

evidence contained in its hearings, this evidence being very supportive of both CE2015 and John Armstrong's position. It should have been obvious over 40 years ago

that the man interrogated (allegedly for 12 hours) by the Dallas Police Department was not the Lee Oswald born in Alvar Street in New Orleans October 39, but an

immigrant of Baltic origin, using the Alvar street identity, and therefore claiming to be Robert Oswald's kid brother. (Bolds mine)

If that's not two Oswalds, what is?

Alaric Rosman was awarded the 2010 Dealey Plaza UK Annual Achievement Award. The vote was unanimous. That's an impressive accomplishment.

COPIED IN FULL!!!!!

If that's not insinuating that the 2008 article had the same conclusions as the latter one, what is?

[Greg Parker]

Since I can't see any evidence anyone bothered to read it, here are some of the more salient points from something I linked to earlier...highlights mine.

This post is by request. How long does it take to learn Chinese or Japanese vs. Spanish or Irish Gaelic? I would argue less than an hour.

Here's the reasoning…

Before you invest (or waste) hundreds and thousands of hours on a language, you should deconstruct it. During my thesis research at Princeton, which focused on neuroscience and unorthodox acquisition of Japanese by native English speakers, as well as when redesigning curricula for Berlitz, this neglected deconstruction step surfaced as one of the distinguishing habits of the fastest language learners…

[-----]

How is it possible to become conversationally fluent in one of these languages in 2-12 months? It starts with deconstructing them, choosing wisely, and abandoning all but a few of them.

Consider a new language like a new sport.

There are certain physical prerequisites (height is an advantage in basketball), rules (a runner must touch the bases in baseball), and so on that determine if you can become proficient at all, and—if so—how long it will take.

Languages are no different. What are your tools, and how do they fit with the rules of your target?

If you're a native Japanese speaker, respectively handicapped with a bit more than 20 phonemes in your language, some languages will seem near impossible. Picking a compatible language with similar sounds and word construction (like Spanish) instead of one with a buffet of new sounds you cannot distinguish (like Chinese) could make the difference between having meaningful conversations in 3 months instead of 3 years.

Let's look at few of the methods I recently used to deconstructed Russian and Arabic to determine if I could reach fluency within a 3-month target time period. Both were done in an hour or less of conversation with native speakers sitting next to me on airplanes.

Six Lines of Gold

Here are a few questions that I apply from the outset. The simple versions come afterwards:

1. Are there new grammatical structures that will postpone fluency? (look at SOV vs. SVO, as well as noun cases)

2. Are there new sounds that will double or quadruple time to fluency? (especially vowels)

3. How similar is it to languages I already understand? What will help and what will interfere? (Will acquisition erase a previous language? Can I borrow structures without fatal interference like Portuguese after Spanish?)

4. All of which answer: How difficult will it be, and how long would it take to become functionally fluent?

It doesn't take much to answer these questions. All you need are a few sentences translated from English into your target language.

Some of my favorites, with reasons, are below:

The apple is red.

It is John's apple.

I give John the apple.

We give him the apple.

He gives it to John.

She gives it to him.

These six sentences alone expose much of the language, and quite a few potential deal killers.

[note: there is some evidence in Oswald's mote book he may have used a similar method]

First, they help me to see if and how verbs are conjugated based on speaker (both according to gender and number). I'm also able to immediately identify an uber-pain in some languages: placement of indirect objects (John), direct objects (the apple), and their respective pronouns (him, it). I would follow these sentences with a few negations ("I don't give…") and different tenses to see if these are expressed as separate words ("bu" in Chinese as negation, for example) or verb changes ("-nai" or "-masen" in Japanese), the latter making a language much harder to crack.

Second, I'm looking at the fundamental sentence structure: is it subject-verb-object (SVO) like English and Chinese ("I eat the apple"), is it subject-object-verb (SOV) like Japanese ("I the apple eat"), or something else? If you're a native English speaker, SOV will be harder than the familiar SVO, but once you pick one up (Korean grammar is almost identical to Japanese, and German has a lot of verb-at-the-end construction), your brain will be formatted for new SOV languages.

Third, the first three sentences expose if the language has much-dreaded noun cases. What are noun cases? In German, for example, "the" isn't so simple. It might be der, das, die, dem, den and more depending on whether "the apple" is an object, indirect object, possessed by someone else, etc. Headaches galore. Russian is even worse. This is one of the reasons I continue to put it off.

All the above from just 6-10 sentences! Here are two more:

I must give it to him.

I want to give it to her.

These two are to see if auxiliary verbs exist, or if the end of the each verb changes. A good short-cut to independent learner status, when you no longer need a teacher to improve, is to learn conjugations for "helping" verbs like "to want," "to need," "to have to," "should," etc. In Spanish and many others, this allows you to express yourself with "I need/want/must/should" + the infinite of any verb. Learning the variations of a half dozen verbs gives you access to all verbs. This doesn't help when someone else is speaking, but it does help get the training wheels off self-expression as quickly as possible.

If these auxiliaries are expressed as changes in the verb (often the case with Japanese) instead of separate words (Chinese, for example), you are in for a rough time in the beginning.

Sounds and Scripts

I ask my impromptu teacher to write down the translations twice: once in the proper native writing system (also called "script" or "orthography"), and again in English phonetics, or I'll write down approximations or use IPA.

If possible, I will have them take me through their alphabet, giving me one example word for each consonant and vowel. Look hard for difficult vowels, which will take, in my experience, at least 10 times longer to master than any unfamiliar consonant or combination thereof ("tsu" in Japanese poses few problems, for example). Think Portuguese is just slower Spanish with a few different words? Think again. Spend an hour practicing the "open" vowels of Brazilian Portuguese. I recommend you get some ice for your mouth and throat first.

Reading Real Cyrillic 20 Minutes Later

Going through the characters of a language's writing system is really only practical for languages that have at least one phonetic writing system of 50 or fewer sounds—Spanish, Russian, and Japanese would all be fine. Chinese fails since tones multiply variations of otherwise simple sounds, and it also fails miserably on phonetic systems. If you go after Mandarin, choose the somewhat uncommon GR over pinyin romanization if at all possible. It's harder to learn at first, but I've never met a pinyin learner with tones even half as accurate as a decent GR user. Long story short, this is because tones are indicated by spelling in GR, not by diacritical marks above the syllables.

In all cases, treat language as sport.

Learn the rules first, determine if it's worth the investment of time (will you, at best, become mediocre?), then focus on the training. Picking your target is often more important than your method.

[To be continued?]

http://www.fourhourw...r-plus-a-favor/

Edited September 27, 2011 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

I think Greg is thinking outside the box if I'm honest with you and I think he has come up with quite an intruiging proposition.

Thank you, Lee and apologies in advance for not quoting your entire body of work in this reply. Seems to be the expectation lately...of me, anyway....

It's really not as outside the box as it may seem.

The twin problems are firstly that the original description of the syndrome by Hans Asperger has been bastardized a thousand ways to Sunday in succeeding decades, and secondly, the syndrome was not an option for health professionals in the US until the 1970s.

This is a potted version of Hartogs' psych report:

...tense, withdrawn and evasive... dislikes intensely talking about himself and his feelings. He likes to give the impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes keeping to himself... it is difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides... intense anxiety, shyness... insecurity...withdrawal and solitary habits. Lee told me, ""I don't want a friend. I don't like to talk to people. He describes himself as stubborn... strongly resistive and negativistic features.

...superior mental functioning. His abstract capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy. He limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the television all day long. He dislikes to play with others, or to face the learning [?] in school. On the other hand, he claims that he is "very poor" at all school subjects and would need remedial help. The discrepancy between these claims and his actual attainment level show the low degree of self-realization and self-esteem...mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional discouragement.

...slightly impaired hearing in left ear due to mastoidectomy in 1944.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1137&relPageId=109

“Asperger Syndrome was first described in 1944 by HansAsperger, an Austrian physician. Asperger regarded the syndrome as apersonality disorder that he termed “autistic psychopathy”. According to hisobservation, AS individuals usually began to speak at the expected age, as innormal children. A full command of grammar was acquired sooner or later, butthere might be difficulty in using pronouns correctly. The content of speechwas usually abnormal and pedantic, and consisted of lengthy disquisitions onfavourite subjects. Often a word or phrase was repeated over and over again ina stereotyped fashion. The other features he described were the impairment oftwo-way social interactions, totally ignoring demands of the environment,repetitive and stereotyped play, and isolated areas of interest. He believedthat the condition was never recognised in infancy, and that those with thesyndrome had excellent ability of logical abstract thinking and were capable oforiginality and creativity in chosen fields.“High Functioning Kids With Autism by Eric Schopler& Gary B Mesibov p24

From Hartogs' testimony:

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personalitydisturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or conditioning;this was more deeper going. A personality pattern disturbance is a disturbancewhich has been existing since early childhood and has continued to existthrough the individual's life. It is not the result of recent conditioning

So Hartogs' diagnosed a "personality pattern disturbance" --- and Hans Asperger originally described the syndrome as a "personality disorder". I put it to everyone here that had Asperger's been a diagnosis open to Hartog, it would have been very much on the table as a consideration.

There is one proviso. Hartogs made his diagnosis of "personality pattern disturbance" based on an incomplete family history. Key details were seemingly deliberately withheld by both Lee and Marguerite. And it is impossible to say now, how much, if any, young Lee was feigning his "condition". My own opinion is... "possibly to some extent... but not entirely".

[Greg Parker]

I think Greg is thinking outside the box if I'm honest with you and I think he has come up with quite an intruiging proposition.

Thank you, Lee and apologies in advance for not quoting your entire body of work in this reply. Seems to be the expectation lately...of me, anyway....

It's really not as outside the box as it may seem.

The twin problems are firstly that the original description of the syndrome by Hans Asperger has been bastardized a thousand ways to Sunday in succeeding decades, and secondly, the syndrome was not an option for health professionals in the US until the 1970s.

This is a potted version of Hartogs' psych report:

...tense, withdrawn and evasive... dislikes intensely talking about himself and his feelings. He likes to give the impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes keeping to himself... it is difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides... intense anxiety, shyness... insecurity...withdrawal and solitary habits. Lee told me, ""I don't want a friend. I don't like to talk to people. He describes himself as stubborn... strongly resistive and negativistic features.

...superior mental functioning. His abstract capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy. He limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the television all day long. He dislikes to play with others, or to face the learning [?] in school. On the other hand, he claims that he is "very poor" at all school subjects and would need remedial help. The discrepancy between these claims and his actual attainment level show the low degree of self-realization and self-esteem...mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional discouragement.

...slightly impaired hearing in left ear due to mastoidectomy in 1944.

http://www.maryferre...7&relPageId=109

"Asperger Syndrome was first described in 1944 by HansAsperger, an Austrian physician. Asperger regarded the syndrome as apersonality disorder that he termed "autistic psychopathy". According to hisobservation, AS individuals usually began to speak at the expected age, as innormal children. A full command of grammar was acquired sooner or later, butthere might be difficulty in using pronouns correctly. The content of speechwas usually abnormal and pedantic, and consisted of lengthy disquisitions onfavourite subjects. Often a word or phrase was repeated over and over again ina stereotyped fashion. The other features he described were the impairment oftwo-way social interactions, totally ignoring demands of the environment,repetitive and stereotyped play, and isolated areas of interest. He believedthat the condition was never recognised in infancy, and that those with thesyndrome had excellent ability of logical abstract thinking and were capable oforiginality and creativity in chosen fields."High Functioning Kids With Autism by Eric Schopler& Gary B Mesibov p24

From Hartogs' testimony:

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personalitydisturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or conditioning;this was more deeper going. A personality pattern disturbance is a disturbancewhich has been existing since early childhood and has continued to existthrough the individual's life. It is not the result of recent conditioning

So Hartogs' diagnosed a "personality pattern disturbance" --- and Hans Asperger originally described the syndrome as a "personality disorder". I put it to everyone here that had Asperger's been a diagnosis open to Hartog, it would have been very much on the table as a consideration.

There is one proviso. Hartogs made his diagnosis of "personality pattern disturbance" based on an incomplete family history. Key details were seemingly deliberately withheld by both Lee and Marguerite. And it is impossible to say now, how much, if any, young Lee was feigning his "condition". My own opinion is... "possibly to some extent... but not entirely".

Further to the above...

Medical Services

PERSONALITY DISORDERS

EBM Personality Disorders

Version: 2a (draft)

MED/S2/CMEP~0055 (j)

Medical Services

1. Introduction

The concept of a personality disorder does not fit easily into the medical model of

disease. Everyone has a personality and the definition of the end points between

normal personality, personality problems and clinical personality disorders is

necessarily arbitrary. The point at which personality problems become personality

disorders is generally taken as the point at which the personality disturbance results

in impaired relationships and reduced social and occupational functioning.

Personality disorders are widespread and present a major challenge in most areas

of health care. They can be difficult to treat, complicate the management and

adversely affect the outcome of other conditions. They can exert a disproportionate

effect on the workload of staff dealing with them.

............................................

Difficulty in diagnosis is common where symptoms may overlap e.g. with Asperger's

Syndrome.

http://www.whatdothe...orders.pdf.html

could Oswald have been taught Russian from a young age?

Lee, that's possible, but unlikely without any hint on how this could have been done - unless all those hours reading magazines and watching TV were really Russian lessons...

You've more or less convinced me (whether or not you actually meant to) that Oswald was proficient in, without being a master of the Russian language before leaving for Russia, I think Rosaleen Quinn was possibly swayed to the idea hat was more fluent than he actually was, simply because he had a better grasp of it than her. I mean, if I spoke a passable Mandarin and conversed with someone whose skills at it were less than mine, that person is probably going to think I speak it more fluently than I actually do. I think he picked up the Polish accent and a greater degree of proficiency later, hanging out with the Zigers.

Here's a discussion on Oswald's ability in writing in Russian.

http://reopenkennedy...-russian-things

Edited September 28, 2011 by Greg Parker