David Josephs Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Wondering aloud... The president had just been assassinated on domestic soil... was there any military muscle escorting the new PRES and others from Andrews thru DC? All I remember was a naval ambulance and a limo or two... Then a helicopter lands with the MDW... If there were other aircraft escorting LBJ's copter,other copters, it would be easier to get JFK's body off the front and airborne quickly... where the skies buzzing with aircraft? Were the copters already waiting for the pres party? or did they land not soon after, making alot of noise? Page 6 section b-2 of the AFTER report tells us that the only route that was prepared to be secured at the time of the arrival of the ambulance at the front of the hospital was from the helipad to the morgue... the info that the body was coming by ambulance didn't get to Bethesda? At that point it was Dennis David's group that had already offloaded a casket from a black vehicle. While the MDW lands in the front where the ambulance pulls up... and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) David try this for information........Return to: HSCA Medical Testimony and Interviews HSCA INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD LIPSEY, 1-18-78 http://history-matte...HSCA-Lipsey.htm b Edited March 25, 2012 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 http://www.jfk-online.com/clhill.html Clint Hill....The motorcade departed Andrews Air Force Base for Bethesda Naval Hospital, Bethesda, Maryland, at 6:10 p.m. We were escorted by motorcycle police officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks Bernice Was looking for air protection.. helicopters and such... so that one landing and leaving from the front right would not be overly obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lifton Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Wondering aloud... The president had just been assassinated on domestic soil... was there any military muscle escorting the new PRES and others from Andrews thru DC? All I remember was a naval ambulance and a limo or two... Then a helicopter lands with the MDW... If there were other aircraft escorting LBJ's copter,other copters, it would be easier to get JFK's body off the front and airborne quickly... where the skies buzzing with aircraft? Were the copters already waiting for the pres party? or did they land not soon after, making alot of noise? Page 6 section b-2 of the AFTER report tells us that the only route that was prepared to be secured at the time of the arrival of the ambulance at the front of the hospital was from the helipad to the morgue... the info that the body was coming by ambulance didn't get to Bethesda? At that point it was Dennis David's group that had already offloaded a casket from a black vehicle. While the MDW lands in the front where the ambulance pulls up... and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier... You ask: "and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier....." Please see Chapter 16 of Best Evidence, titled "Chain of Possession: The Missing Link" and deals with the "Decoy Ambulance." I interviewed all members of the MDW casket, and what they experienced is all spelled out in considerable detail there. At about 7:12 PM, an admiral (Admiral Galloway) drove the ambulance with the Dallas casket (and that had arrived at 6:55 PM, with RFK and Jacqueline Kennedy) away from the front of Bethesda Naval Hospital. That naval ambulance (with the casket inside) engaged in some kind of evasive maneuvers. So the MDW team "lost" the ambulance. When they returned to the front of the hospital, some higher up told them that they had followed "the wrong ambulance. . the decoy." It took some 45 minutes before they re-connected with the "correct" ambulance, the one with the Dallas casket, and which now had the body inside. Coast Guardsman Barnum's report--which I obtained, and quote from--is very illuminating. It was written in December, 1963, and records all the shenanigans, in considerable detail. There were two round-trips between the front of the hospital, and the back, seeking the "correct" naval ambulance. When they finally "found it," they brought in the Dallas casket, which --by that time--had the President's body inside. I believe the question you are asking is: who put the President's body back into the Dallas casket (i.e., how was that done), and who brought the Dallas casket back outside and put it back in the (or "a") naval ambulance. The short answer is: I don't know, and I know of no official report that explains that event. To understand the juggling and deception that was taking place, you should read (and study) chapter 28 of BEST EVIDENCE, titled "The Clandestine Intermission Hypothesis." Therein, you will find critical evidence and time lines. In the very first Time Magazine story about BEST EVIDENCE (circa Jan 12, 1981), the article notes the fact that one witness (and it may be O'Connor, I do not remember at this writing) talked of information that a casket was "rushed" from the morgue area to the Emergency Room area of the hospital. I've always assumed that is the "missing link" in the chain of events, but --to this day--we do not know (certainly I do not know) how the Dallas casket was "returned" to the naval ambulance, who may have witnessed that, or what excuse was manufactured to explain such an event. DSL 3/25/12; 2 AM PDT Edited March 25, 2012 by David Lifton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks David.... I will go look it up. That still strikes me as an awful long time to be "lost" or lead around... and the main quesiton of this thread that you can help us on... Do you know the landing and taking off of military aircraft, specifically helicopters, from Andrews starting around 5:30 until they leave for Bethesda? Were any of the helicopters flanked by protection? I would be curious as well about your thoughts on a post I've made in a couple of places now.... Sibert and O'Neill tell us that THEY helped Kellerman and Greer move the casket into the anteroom... at 7:17 When pressed, the FBI cannot say exactly who else helped, if anyone... We also know that the MDW carries the casket into the morgue at 8pm Whether you believe Boyijean also delivered a casket or not is immaterial to this theory... what is important is that his men were stationed all around the hospital, including at the morgue entrance. Those that wheeled/carried a casket back to the ambulance had to have been a very select group, They could not be the 6:35 marines who reported they carried the casket (yet those that carried it were only a small portion of the entire detail who served as security all eve) or it could not be those who helped the SS/FBI men - if any unless they were told it was empty and broken, and was to be taken away... and they did NOT witness the arrival at 8pm 2 events... the removal of the casket with JFK in it - yet for those witnessing this it is simply the removal of the damaged casket - and the arrival again at 8pm Boyijean's report states the men took coffee and chow breaks at frequent intervals as the eve worn on... If that is the case, the ONLY men who could have moved the casket back and NOT be asked about it are the men in the autopsy room from the delivery of the casket at 7:17 My theory: Wheeling the broken casket away is witnessed by one set of Boyijean's guards and is a non issue to them and to their report. A different set of guards who had been posted earlier in a diff part of the hospital is brought over to relieve these men and witnesses the 8pm delivery of said casket and would be none the wiser while their buddies are chowing down. Humes, Kellerman, Greer and/or Boswell move the casket with JFK from the morgue to the ambulance under the guise of removing the broken casket with a new one on the way shortly before 8pm, there is a swap in security personnel when cleared of these personnel, and a new detail standing guard, the MDW brings in the casket now with JFK inside, while the guilty parties of Kellerman, Greer, Humes and Boswell wait and watch. Only a small handful of Boyijean's men could suspect... yet they were not there to observe and report which casket was moved where and when unless THEY moved it. Boyijean himself may have been upstairs guarding the VIP's and not seen any of the activity as he reports the rest of the evening as "relatively quiet"... DJ Wondering aloud... The president had just been assassinated on domestic soil... was there any military muscle escorting the new PRES and others from Andrews thru DC? All I remember was a naval ambulance and a limo or two... Then a helicopter lands with the MDW... If there were other aircraft escorting LBJ's copter,other copters, it would be easier to get JFK's body off the front and airborne quickly... where the skies buzzing with aircraft? Were the copters already waiting for the pres party? or did they land not soon after, making alot of noise? Page 6 section b-2 of the AFTER report tells us that the only route that was prepared to be secured at the time of the arrival of the ambulance at the front of the hospital was from the helipad to the morgue... the info that the body was coming by ambulance didn't get to Bethesda? At that point it was Dennis David's group that had already offloaded a casket from a black vehicle. While the MDW lands in the front where the ambulance pulls up... and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier... You ask: "and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier....." Please see Chapter 16 of Best Evidence. I interviewed all members of the MDW casket. And what they experienced is all spelled out in great detail there. An admiral (Admiral Galloway) drove the ambulance with the Dallas casket away; then engaged in some kind of evasive maneuvers. So the MDW team "lost" the ambulance. Some higher up told them that they had followed "the wrong ambulance. . the decoy." It took some 45 minutes before they re-connected with the "correct" ambulance, the one with the Dallas casket, and which now had the body inside. Coast Guardsman Barnum's report--which I obtained, and quote from--is very illuminating. It was written in December, 1963, and records all the shenanigans, in considerable detail. DSL 3/25/12; 2 AM PDT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Lifton Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Thanks David.... I will go look it up. That still strikes me as an awful long time to be "lost" or lead around... and the main quesiton of this thread that you can help us on... Do you know the landing and taking off of military aircraft, specifically helicopters, from Andrews starting around 5:30 until they leave for Bethesda? Were any of the helicopters flanked by protection? I would be curious as well about your thoughts on a post I've made in a couple of places now.... Sibert and O'Neill tell us that THEY helped Kellerman and Greer move the casket into the anteroom... at 7:17 When pressed, the FBI cannot say exactly who else helped, if anyone... We also know that the MDW carries the casket into the morgue at 8pm Whether you believe Boyijean also delivered a casket or not is immaterial to this theory... what is important is that his men were stationed all around the hospital, including at the morgue entrance. Those that wheeled/carried a casket back to the ambulance had to have been a very select group, They could not be the 6:35 marines who reported they carried the casket (yet those that carried it were only a small portion of the entire detail who served as security all eve) or it could not be those who helped the SS/FBI men - if any unless they were told it was empty and broken, and was to be taken away... and they did NOT witness the arrival at 8pm 2 events... the removal of the casket with JFK in it - yet for those witnessing this it is simply the removal of the damaged casket - and the arrival again at 8pm Boyijean's report states the men took coffee and chow breaks at frequent intervals as the eve worn on... If that is the case, the ONLY men who could have moved the casket back and NOT be asked about it are the men in the autopsy room from the delivery of the casket at 7:17 My theory: Wheeling the broken casket away is witnessed by one set of Boyijean's guards and is a non issue to them and to their report. A different set of guards who had been posted earlier in a diff part of the hospital is brought over to relieve these men and witnesses the 8pm delivery of said casket and would be none the wiser while their buddies are chowing down. Humes, Kellerman, Greer and/or Boswell move the casket with JFK from the morgue to the ambulance under the guise of removing the broken casket with a new one on the way shortly before 8pm, there is a swap in security personnel when cleared of these personnel, and a new detail standing guard, the MDW brings in the casket now with JFK inside, while the guilty parties of Kellerman, Greer, Humes and Boswell wait and watch. Only a small handful of Boyijean's men could suspect... yet they were not there to observe and report which casket was moved where and when unless THEY moved it. Boyijean himself may have been upstairs guarding the VIP's and not seen any of the activity as he reports the rest of the evening as "relatively quiet"... DJ Wondering aloud... The president had just been assassinated on domestic soil... was there any military muscle escorting the new PRES and others from Andrews thru DC? All I remember was a naval ambulance and a limo or two... Then a helicopter lands with the MDW... If there were other aircraft escorting LBJ's copter,other copters, it would be easier to get JFK's body off the front and airborne quickly... where the skies buzzing with aircraft? Were the copters already waiting for the pres party? or did they land not soon after, making alot of noise? Page 6 section b-2 of the AFTER report tells us that the only route that was prepared to be secured at the time of the arrival of the ambulance at the front of the hospital was from the helipad to the morgue... the info that the body was coming by ambulance didn't get to Bethesda? At that point it was Dennis David's group that had already offloaded a casket from a black vehicle. While the MDW lands in the front where the ambulance pulls up... and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier... You ask: "and finally, there is that pesky time thing again... what in the world where these boys doing from just before 7pm at the front of the hospital until 8pm when they finally carried in the casket... while Kellerman runs to the morgue immediately after arrival & Sibert, O'Neill and Greer bring it in 45 mins earlier....." Please see Chapter 16 of BEST EVIDENCE. I interviewed all members of the MDW casket (starting in 1967). And what they experienced is all spelled out in great detail there. An admiral (Admiral Galloway) drove the ambulance with the Dallas casket away; then engaged in some kind of evasive maneuvers. So the MDW team "lost" the ambulance. Some higher up told them that they had followed "the wrong ambulance. . the decoy." It took some 45 minutes before they re-connected with the "correct" ambulance, the one with the Dallas casket, and which now had the body inside. Coast Guardsman Barnum's report--which I obtained, and quote from--is very illuminating. It was written in December, 1963, and records all the shenanigans, in considerable detail. DSL 3/25/12; 2 AM PDT See my post #5, on this thread, which I just modified and expanded, in an attempt to address your question(s). You are asking reasonable questions, but the answers--as far as I know--are not known. It is critical to read Chapter 28, of BEST EVIDENCE, where I laid out the data of what is known, drew some important time lines, and attempted to address these questions. Obviously, subsequent to the body originally being delivered to the Bethesda morgue (circa 6:35 PM, per the Boyajian report) the body was returned to the Dallas casket--after it had arrived, circa 7:17 PM, per the FBI information, and after those two agents had been asked to leave the room, so that X-rays could be taken. After they had gone, the body then must have been returned to the Dallas casket. Then (someone --we do not know who--probably placed that casket on a dolly, and rolled that casket (i.e., Dallas casket, now containing JFK's body), back to some entrance (not necessarily the morgue entrance) and returned it to the (or "a") naval ambulance. Such an event must have happened to explain what then transpired. That ambulance must have been driven either to the front of Bethesda, or to the morgue loading dock, so the MDW casket team (who gave various accounts of how they had "lost" the Dallas casket) could then "find" that ambulance, and escort the Dallas casket (now, with the body inside) back into the morgue. According to their report, that event occurred at 8 P.M.. This whole business of returning the Dallas casket to a (or "the") naval ambulance was probably treated as a tightly guarded event. It is highly unlikely that a whole group of people (e.g., "sailors") knew about it. My own opinion is that it was probably handled by Admiral Galloway himself, with one or two others, very likely Kellerman. To this day, we simply do not know who returned the casket to the naval ambulance--just that such an event must have occurred. To recap: All we know for sure is that the MDW casket team "lost" the Dallas coffin for about 50m minutes, and then "found" it just prior to 8 PM. That's what I learned from the MDW interviews I conducted --and it is all laid out in Chapter 16 of BEST EVIDENCE. The return of the Dallas casket to the naval ambulance is one of those events that was "off the record," and successfully "hidden from history," if I may coin a phrase. It is also important to understand that Commander Humes was very likely privy to these shenanigans--how could he not be? Anyway, in order to understand "what Humes knew, and when he knew it," one must be sensitive to he covered his tush just in case the matter came up. In short, one must sensitive to his "Humes speak." He built into his own testimony an "explanation," should the matter ever come up in the future. Please note this Q and A (which I spelled out in Chapter 28, referred to above): Specter: Tell us who else in a general way was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please? Humes: I must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the president and not of the security measures of the other people who were present." (2 WCH 349) DSL 3/25/12; 11:15 AM PDT Los Angeles, California Edited March 26, 2012 by David Lifton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks David Unless Humes was not in the autopsy room until after 8pm... he HAD to know... yet since he states when the body arrived and that he and Boswell along with everyone else in that room at that time. How are they taking xrays and photos when the body had yet to "officially" arrive? Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately? Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination. Commander HUMES - All right, sir. I might preface my remarks by stating that the President's body was received in our morgue in a closed casket. We opened the casket, Dr. Boswell and I, and the President's body was unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital, but he was unclothed once the sheet was removed from his body so we do not have at that time any clothing. Commander HUMES - Some of these X-rays were taken before and some during the examination which, also maintains for the photographs, which were made as the need became apparent to make such. However, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, posterior and lateral X-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, and identification type photographs, I recall having been made of the full face of the late President. A photograph showing the massive head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. To my recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began. Several others, approximately 15 to 20 in number, were made in total before we finished the proceedings. Mr. SPECTER - Now were those X-rays or photographs or both when you referred to the total number? Commander HUMES - By the number I would say they are in number 15 to 20. There probably was ten or 12 X- ray films exposed in addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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