The Education Forum

# Solving A Puzzle

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An example would be:

Distance from Station C to Z161 = 94.7ft.

Distance from Sniper's nest to Z161= 79.2ft

Difference of 15.5ft

Total frames from Station C to Z161= 133 referring to GRAPH2

133frames/18.3 frames per sec = 7.267 sec

94.7ft/7.267sec = 13.03 ft per sec = 8.86 mph

79.2ft/7.267sec= 10.89ft per sec = 7.41mph

8.86-7.41= 1.45 mph difference

If you input 132 frames (a 1 frame difference) at 79.2ft you end up with 7.36mph or a difference of 8.86-7.36 = 1.5mph.

Remember this document: http://www.mejuba.com/albums/jfkass/112938/4484767/1

What is the difference in speed between 3.74 and 2.24 mph?

chris

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You can always use landmarks for measuring distances. Especially if you have West's measurements from 1963.

For instance:

The signal-light pole and the County Records corner.

Draw a line of sight from the Z pedestal to the light pole.

Use the front right end of the limo to establish the intersecting point.

In this case, Zframe136 appears to match. Now it is possible to attach a station # to that frame, in relationship to where JFK within the limo is.

Of course, without the combination of the SS/FBI/Drommer plats combined, it would make things quite difficult to plot.

http://www.mejuba.com/albums/jfkass/112938/5863282/show/original

chris

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Chris. Please post the full plat in full res. It's taken six+ years to get to see that much except for full res copies of segments. Also, if you have, all the Wests survey notes.

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Sometimes, a comparison among multiple documents will render an obvious problem.

For instance, if you align Myers and Don Roberdeau to Drommer/West, you'll notice that where Myers has the limo in Towners last frame, that = Roberdeau's limo position of Z133.

Since Myers states a .82sec or 15 frame difference between the end of Towner and the beginning of Z, this creates a

problem for someone.

http://www.mejuba.com/albums/jfkass/112938/5869790/show/original

chris

P.S. John, I'll check with Tom first.

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I wonder if the LineOfSight plottings on the the West plat had any correlation to the relationship between "Stemmons sign and target point distances" on Elm St.

Somewhere near 15ft!!!

Geometry, Photography, Parallex

http://www.mejuba.co...0/show/original

http://www.mejuba.co...5/show/original

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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• 2 weeks later...

You might take note of the 2 right hand columns.

Using the frame count and distance traveled starting from Station C, the next column would lead you to a MPH entry, if one was inclined to do the simple calculations using 18.3 frames per sec as their timer.

The brackets reflect the WC measurements/distances assigned to Station C, Position A, and Z161.

Please keep in mind, the measurements according to the WC, are supposed to represent JFK's physical position in the limo.

chris

P.S. Knowing the physical position of Tina Towner and Zapruder while filming, allows one to use both films (LOS) in determining JFK's position within the limo in relationship to landmarks within Dealy Plaza. The Towner landmarks would be the corner of the County Records building. The corner of the Dal Tex building. And, the traffic signal post on the corner of Elm and Houston which can be seen in the background of Z's film.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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http://www.mejuba.com/albums/jfkass/112938/6002315/show/original

MPH up to frame 161.

Last 2 entries. Difference between 7.41 and 13.39 MPH = 5.98 MPH.

2.24+3.74= 5.98MPH ----> Refer back to Post #7 Vehicle Speed Analysis Chart for the importance of this.

Limo speed change of 5.98 MPH in 12 Zframes or .65sec.

This is what occurs with math when you try to hide distance traveled/the real street position of JFK, in relation to a pre-conceived plan.

chris

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http://www.mejuba.co...6/show/original

At the bottom right hand side of the graph is the WC calculations.

Their average speed for the limo is 11.15 MPH over 136.1ft in152 frames (161-313).

Using Graph5 in my previous posting should help explain the importance for the rest of these calcs.

No coincidences in any of this.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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• 1 month later...

Moving away and copied over from Jim D's thread.

Thought you might enjoy some more math.

The gif supplied is a measuring stick. I took the frames from Groden's uncut??? copy.

Frames between "limo front" and "JFK in limo" is 20 and the distance = 15.5ft = WC measurement of Station C to Snipers Nest.

20/18.3 frames per sec = 1.092 sec

15.5 ft/1.092 sec = 14.194ft sec = 9.65 mph.

Important to understand the "measuring sticks".

Follow up to this coming in a bit.

chris

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A little while back, I posted a chart for all.

This was one part of it.

See if you can get 9.65 mph to interact with it.

chris

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Using 9.65mph.

9.65 mph-2.24mph= 7.41mph

7.41 mph= 133frames@18.3fps@79.2ft

79.2ft = distance from (limo front aligned with snipers nest) to Zframe 161

133 frames = Station C to Z161. Refer to my chart.

chris

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Now, go the other way.

9.65mph + 3.74 mph = 13.39 mph.

So, coincidentally, you can use the 211-231 alignment gif, realize the "limo front/JFK in limo" crosses Z's LOS in 20 frames@15.5ft traveled resulting in a speed of 9.65mph.

That 9.65mph becomes somewhat of an anchor point for the "Vehicle Speed Data Analysis" inputs of the limo traveling at 3.74 and 2.24 mph which we all know doesn't appear in the extant Z film.

Sure, you can argue that those two mph entries result from measuring "instantaneous speed" and I wouldn't argue in the least, it's just that is not what the WC used them for.

Once again, anyone can look at the film and realize the limo does not travel 2.24/3.74 mph at any time.

chris

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Working with the difference of 3.74mph-2.24mph=1.5mph added to 9.65mph=11.15 mph.

8.91mph-7.41mph=1.5mph

11.15mph= 13.39-2.24

11.15mph= 7.41+3.74

11.15mph= 8.91+2.24

11.15mph= Zframes 161-313= 152 frames@18.3 frames per sec@136.1ft traveled per the WC calcs.

WC Exhibit #560 gives distanced traveled between (shot 1 and 3) @ 90ft@5.5sec=16.363 ft per sec = 11.13 mph

It doesn't include the frame count which = 5.5sec X 18.3fps= 100.65 frames

chris

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100 frames.

100frames@18.3 frames per sec@30ft = 5.46sec

30ft/5.46sec = 5.49ft per sec = 3.737mph

30ft = difference between 313 headshot and Altgen's shot stated by WC document.

Actually, this might be considered Station# 4+96 which is 31ft past 313 Station# 4+65.

20 frames/15.5ft = 40 frames @31ft.

chris

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I have added the first shot determination from the revised Feb 7, 1964 FBI plat in the red square. This was originally the SS plat created on Dec5, 1963.

Whoever was responsible for content in Commission Document 298 has specific distances listed.

Road distance between shot 1 and 3 is 141ft. Plat distance for shot1 is 171ft, which combined = 312ft.

Station# 2+00 is measuring starting point 0ft.

Shot1 = Plat entry 171ft = Station# 3+71= Zframe 207 entered as such in CE884.

So 2+00 + 312 ft= Station# 5+12.

My previous posting provided a link to a determination of the last shot which is approx Station# 4+96.

The difference between these two points is 16ft.

The difference between the "limo front" and "JFK in the limo" is 15.5ft.

Station C where the WC started their measurements is 15.5ft farther up Elm St (at street level) than the snipers nest.

chris

P.S.

The snipers nest is at Station# 2+50.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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