Fred Black Jr.

[Chris Cox]

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/CIA%20cryptonym

This link may be helpful to some of you interested in crypt/digraph stuff. There are several sites out there with this kind of info. Just FYI

[William Plumlee]

Tosh, here is what I have on Fred Black.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbakerF.htm

In 1976 the Select Committee on Intelligence Activities decided to recall Johnny Roselli. Soon afterwards Fred Black called him and warned him that Santos Trafficante had taken out a contract on his life and that the "Cubans were after him".  Soon afterwards Roselli was murdered.

Black was later convicted and imprisoned for tax invasion. After he was released he was interviewed by Charles Rappleye and Ed Becker for their book, All American Mafioso: The Johnny Roselli Story (1995).

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Thanks John: I was not aware of all the information out there. I was not researching. I was prodding my memory about Black because I had confussed him with the Dallas Cubans and El Torres. I was just asking for help on the ID. I know or knew this person and I'm fairly sure he is one of the people I met at Mountain Lake at Hensely Field and Chance Vaught Aircraft. Over the years, for whatever reasons I have thought of him as Torres.

I think this person (Black) had something to do with the death of John Rosellie, or knows who did the job and why.

Anyway, thanks again for the help. I will also hold some of my information close to my chest, until I know what and who, I am dealing with. Tosh

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John I have just briefed myself on the information your website provided to me. I want to think you for the link; I think anyone interested in the JFK matter should brief themselves on the background into Fred Black, Rosellie, and others. I am sure some will say I should have know these things. Perhaps I did. But from another view point. I hope you don't mind but I posted the following from your site. I think its important and should be followed up by those who are interested in the assassination of President Kennedy.

(sometimes people do not go and read the whole site)

"... 4) Drug War: Covert Money, Power & Policy: Neocolonialism (2004)

Colonel Trinidad Oliva was also the key CIA contact in the Guatemalan government, working under his half-brother, the defense minister. Trinidad Oliva coordinated all "foreign aid" coming through the CIA conduit ICA, the International Cooperation Administration, the forerunner of the Agency for International Development, AID.

Rosselli and Trinidad then helped the murderous old Gen. Miguel Ydígoras Fuentes, one of Úbico's assassins with close ties to mob partner Trujillo, to become head of state. Mario Sandoval Alarcón. "the father of Latin America's death squads," organized the right-wing of Castillo's party into the National Liberation Movement and hired himself out to Trinidad and Rosselli.

The same year that Johnny Rosselli helped the CIA engineer the change in the Guatemalan government, he was asked by his Syndicate associates to put together Giancana in Chicago, Costello in New York, Lansky in Miami, and Marcello in New Orleans for the huge $50 million Tropicana construction project in Las Vegas. According to Fred Black, a political fixer who was close to Rosselli, Bobby Baker and Lyndon Johnson, Rosselli's influence was such that he gave orders to the Dorfmans, who controlled the Teamsters' huge Central States Pension Fund. During the 50's and 60's, it was Johnny Rosselli who "set up protection" in Las Vegas.

Throughout 1956 and 57 Rosselli travelled back and forth from Mexico City, the planning center for all CIA operations in Latin America, and Guatemala City. An experienced ICA operative noted that "John had access to everyone and everything that was going on there. He had an open door at the embassy in Guatemala, and in Costa Rica. He was in there plenty of times. I know because I saw him. He supplied information to the government, and had a hand in a lot of the intrigues that were going on."

This means, operationally, that Johnny Rosselli's interests became the CIA's interests. "Throughout Latin America," notes Frank McNeil, a junior political officer in the Guatemalan Embassy in 1960, "there were two American governments - one intelligence and one official." McNeil's boss, Ambassador John Muccio, learned of the Bay of Pigs invasion force being trained in Guatemala only after the story broke in The New York Times. As John Kennedy found out to his chagrin, Rosselli, his Syndicate and Batistiano allies, had more operational clout than the State Department...".

Again, thanks to John Simkin. Tosh Plumlee

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P.S. to post #14:

Fred Black of Washington, D.C. was a lobbyist for North American Aircraft and business associate with Bobby Baker and Clifford Jones. Black has confirmed the connection between Jones, McWillie, Baker, Ruby and ex-Cuban President, Prio.

After November 22, l963, Black publicly told many people in Washington, D.C. he had informed J. Edgar Hoover that an income tax conviction against him must be reversed or he would blow the lid off Washington with revelations of the assassination conspirators. Lobbyist Black prevailed upon J. Edgar Hoover to admit error before the Supreme Court where his case was reversed in 1966. Hoover did well to rescue Black from the conviction. Fred Black, while socially drinking with acquaintances in Washington has, on numerous occasions, been reported to have told of J. Edgar Hoover's and Bobby Baker's involvement in the assassination through Las Vegas, Miami and Havana gamblers. He named some of these as the Fox Brothers of Miami, McLaney of Las Vegas, New Orleans, Havana and Bahamas, Cliff Jones of Las Vegas, Carlos Prio Socarras of Havana, Bobby Baker and others. He stated there was also a connection in that some of the gamblers were Russian emigres.

Don Reynolds, Washington, D.C. businessman and associate of Bobby Baker and who had a number of questionable business transactions with Walter Jenkins on behalf of Lyndon Johnson, also gave testimony concerning Bobby Baker's involvement with the principals and he has stated on numerous public occasions that this group was behind the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Black was a stockholder with Baker in the Waikiki Savings & Loan Association in Honolulu. The other members were Clifford Jones and his law partner, Louis Weiner. There was the Farmers and Merchants State Bank in Tulsa where Jones joined Baker and Black in a stock deal and brought in a Miami pal by the name of Benny Sigelbaum, a courier of funds and documents to the Swiss banks for Permindex and the Syndicate.

Of all the enterprises, none could compare with the controversial Serv-U

I think this also should be considered by any professional investigator. Perhaps it has. This information seems to fit into things I remember from my Dallas days and my operational days. Thanks again Tosh Plumlee

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Questions to the Forum: (1) Is Fred Black still alive?

(2) If not what happened to him?

(3) Did he testified to the HSCA?

(4) Has recent FOIA been released on him?

(5) Is there any documentation of a connection between

Black and El Torres or the Dallas Cubans?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Tosh

[William Plumlee]

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/CIA%20cryptonym

This link may be helpful to some of you interested in crypt/digraph stuff.  There are several sites out there with this kind of info.  Just FYI

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Thanks Christy: Good Link. I think that will help all of us speak a commomd tounge.

It would be good to look into TIDE and MADD ops (JM) That too, might help. I find it strange that OPS TIDE was mentioned in the FBI 105 files in 1978 declassified and sent to the HSCA, but nobody picked up on what it ment. And too, the Tide file was not released to Janet when she was beating the bushes down trying to find out what happened to her father Pete Ray. (American CIA Pilot, killed in BoP)

Perhaps, the list you provided would have helped them a lot. ..OH.Yes... I forgot.. the list was still classified. how stupid of me... Hang in their little one... Tosh

[Chris Cox]

Thanks Christy: Good Link. I think that will help all of us speak a commomd tounge.

It would be good to look into TIDE and MADD ops (JM) That too, might help. I find it strange that OPS TIDE was mentioned in the FBI 105 files in 1978 declassified and sent to the HSCA, but nobody picked up on what it ment. And too, the Tide file was not released to Janet when she was beating the bushes down trying to find out what happened to her father Pete Ray. (American CIA Pilot, killed in BoP)

Perhaps, the list you provided would have helped them a lot. ..OH.Yes... I forgot.. the list was still classified. how stupid of me... Hang in their little one... Tosh

Well, Tosh, that's what I asked John to ask Robert Blakey. How could the HSCA overlook what I am sure from my NARA trips, all those declass files, they already had?

The whole JM program was about Castro. Ties to the Mexico City station must have been in those programs. The records were early sixties, perhaps there some proximate JFK stuff in there. I don't know enough about it.

I'll ask Jan about the Tide thing. Interesting.

C

[Chris Cox]

Here's a better index for the AJWeberman site with that Galindez/Murphy stuff.

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule35.htm

[William Plumlee]

Here's a better index for the AJWeberman site with that Galindez/Murphy stuff.

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule35.htm

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Thanks Christy.. Where in all that is info on Galandez ? Do you know off hand? There is a lot to skem through. Thanks Tosh

[Shanet Clark]

Chris

That link was definitely worth a look.

AM/lash was Rolando Cubela Secares, so he is a principle player. Notice that despite all the code, the alphabetical order is based on political distance from Moscow, with 'A' to 'D' being Iron Curtain. MK was chemical warfare and MK/Search replaced MK/Ultra in 1964. I also know Blue was Air Force and space; Bluebook, Bluesky, etc. Paperclip was also called ASHCAN.

(Maybe they called the Warren Commission BS/Cover))

Shanet

[William Plumlee]

I posted this earlier. Perhaps it got lost in the exchanges of informations about Galindez: I'll ask again:

Questions to the Forum:

(1) Is Fred Black Jr. still alive?

(2) If not what happened to him?

(3) Did he testified to the HSCA?

(4) Has recent FOIA been released on him?

(5) Is there any documentation of a connection between

Black and El Torres or the Dallas Cubans?

(6) Did Black have any ties to MI, INTEL, Dallas, or ONI?

Any information would be apreciate. Tosh Plumlee

[Larry Hancock]

Tosh, I can supply a little information although I don't know if Black

is still alive, if so he would be quite old as he was certainly middle

aged in 1963. I've certainly never seen him on any suspicious death lists.

Black's connections were almost entirely high level legal and government

associations, he was one of the first "super lobbyists" making hundreds of

thousands of dollars from corportations circa 1960. His two major

clients appear to have been North American Aviation and Howard Foundries, both

with significant government contracts. He was the subject of both FBI and

Congressional investigation related to both those clients, the Baker affair was

big trouble to him but even more was the Howard Foundry investigation

which blew up in 1964 and was a major concern to Johnson as it involved a

2.7 million Air Force contract.

Black was also the subject of an FBI wire tap investigation and successfully

challenged the FBI in Court and as part of the Baker thing.

I recall seeing Black testimony but I don't know if that was HSCA or some of

the other investigations, in any event Black said as little as possible and pretty

much denied knowing anybody he was asked about other than in passing.

I don't think there has ever been any sign that Black had been associated with

operational Cuban exiles or really with anybody other than lawyers, high ranking government employees and various high flyers within the Las Vegas and L.A. crime set such as Roselli and Levinson.

-- Larry

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,  I can supply a little information although I don't know if Black

is still alive,  if so he would be quite old as he was certainly middle

aged in 1963.  I've certainly never seen him on any suspicious death lists.

Black's connections were almost entirely high level legal and government

associations,  he was one of the first "super lobbyists" making hundreds of

thousands of dollars from corportations circa 1960.  His two major

clients appear to have been North American Aviation and Howard Foundries, both

with significant government contracts.  He was the subject of both FBI and

Congressional investigation related to both those clients,  the Baker affair was

big trouble to him but even more was the Howard Foundry investigation

which blew up in 1964 and was a major concern to Johnson as it involved a

2.7 million Air Force contract.

Black was also the subject of an FBI wire tap investigation and successfully

challenged the FBI in Court and as part of the Baker thing.

I recall seeing Black testimony but I don't know if that was HSCA or some of

the other investigations,  in any event Black said as little as possible and pretty

much denied knowing anybody he was asked about other than in passing.

I don't think there has ever been any sign that Black had been associated with

operational Cuban exiles or really with anybody other than lawyers,  high ranking government employees and various high flyers within the Las Vegas and L.A. crime set such as Roselli and Levinson.

-- Larry

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Thanks Larry. I apreciate the relply and information.

The "high flyers" are what I am most intereted. I do know that Rosellie had a wide assortment of connections (high flyers and low flyers) Perhaps Black also worked the "back streets" as well. The Alpha -66 group also worked with people in high places within our government, as well Cuba and its government. There were others who were only "leg people". Piro Sarcarras (?) comes to mind as well as Justo Carrillio (?phon) and others associated with Cuba and the United States State Department like Whicha (?) ref; United Fruit hostage mater of 1958. These and others were perhaps the middle "high flyers" of the time associated with the Havana scean of the mid to late fifties. There were other State Department personal who also worked with Hughes and Mahue and the Dallas Cubans in the gun running operations of the time. Perhaps Black through these 'back door' chanells knew more than he was asked to tell.., in reference to JFK and Johnson.

I find it interesting that all the files and information of Fred Black Jr., have not been released and portions of his file is still locked under the vail of 'National Security'. It appears to me that only the higher dealings of a private nature have been the only matters released to the public and his direct dealings with known high ranking and low ranking government operatives of the United States and Cuba, of the time remain 'Classified".

Again thanks for the information. I think its interesting and Black's "low flying" as well as his high flying connections and possible 'out of chanell 'dealings should be looked into further.

Thanks again,Tosh Plumlee

[Larry Hancock]

Tosh, I'm curious as to what particular files or documents you feel are

un-released on Black? Unfortunately the NARA search engine seems to

be down this afternoon but when I can I will hit it and post if I see any

unreleased documents on him.

If you have something specific on him that you know is unreleased we can

check it out but that would be new to me......also you had asked

if researchers had ever interviewed him and the answer on that would be

yes they have. Rappleye and Becker interviewed him and in fact researched

him at some length for their book on Roselli, that was in the early 90's. Morrow interviewed him earlier but got nothing more than dinner conversation as I recall. Schriber did some digging on him when he wrote his book on the "Bobby Baker Affair."

About the only thing that Rapplyeve and Becker found was that Black denied

passing on a warning to Roselli that was described by friends and relatives. That may well have been because Black would have had to explain why he was well enough connected to get a rumor that a contract was out on Roselli. Such a contract has been mentioned by oher associates of Roselli but of course that's something in the rumor class.

-- Larry

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,  I'm curious as to what particular files or documents you feel are

un-released on Black?  Unfortunately the NARA search engine seems to

be down this afternoon but when I can I will hit it and post if I see any

unreleased documents on him.

If you have something specific on him that you know is unreleased we can

check it out but that would be new to me......also you had asked

if researchers had ever interviewed him and the answer on that would be

yes they have.  Rappleye and Becker interviewed him and in fact researched

him at some length for their book on Roselli, that was in the early 90's.  Morrow interviewed him earlier but got nothing more than dinner conversation as I recall.  Schriber did some digging on him when he wrote his book on the "Bobby Baker Affair." 

About the only thing that Rapplyeve and Becker found was that Black denied

passing on a warning to Roselli that was described by friends and relatives.  That may well have been because Black would have had to explain why he was well enough connected to get a rumor that a contract was out on Roselli.  Such a contract has been mentioned by oher associates of Roselli but of course that's something in the rumor class.

-- Larry

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Not sure if you would call this "spacific" perhaps only "interest". Perhaps the following "background information" will lead to something 'spacific".

In 1998, a Miami Dade Homicide detective mentioned to me that all the files on Fred Black Jr. had NOT been released to them in reference to Blacks associations with Johnnny Rosellie and others. It was said (to me) their investigators (homicide) had ran into a brick wall, as to Fred Black's previous military background and some government contacts had been omitted or withheld because of 'National Security'. I was ask, at the time, if I knew anything about his (Blacks) activities and association with Johnney Rosellie and others. I was under the impression Blaack might have been a suspect, or had knowledge, about the death of Rosellie. Again, I was under the impression that his private business dealings, which had been widely known, and all that other stuff is what they obtained and not information that had perhaps been classified for whatever reasons.

About two years later, I was contacted by a person in Miami law enforcement who told me the John Rosellie case was being looked into again (the case has never been closed, 'cold case' classification) and my name had been mentioned because of the FBI 62 file of 1976, Phoenix OO, and other sources. This FBI-62 and another 105, had NOT been given to Dade County at the time of the orginal investigation of the murder because my file had been classified. (My files were not declassified until 1978. Why? I have no idea.)

I contacted Miami Homicide and was put in touch with a detective who had been assigned the case, or was familiar with the details of the investigation. I talked to him and we were in process of setting a meeting in Miami. Within two weeks I was contacted by two FBI agents who ask why I was interested in contacts with Dade county. I refused to disscuss the mater and they left. The next day the Miami meeting was cancelled. I was told the Rosellie and Black mater was classified National Securety and I would be contacted by federal investigators. After a few weeks, I contacted federal authorites and they in turn told me the Rosellie and Fred Black Jr. matter was a government matter and I did not have the proper clearences necessary to discuss the matter with them.

That is why I ask the forum about information on the matter. Seems to me information is being with held or lost as to the indepth investigation of Black and that makes me ask questions as to the nature of what has been released. Has everything been released or is there other government matters we no nothing about still locked up somewhere, being withheld for whatever reasons..? If so, I would like to know the reasons..... Thanks Larry for the help. Sometimes, as you should know, there is no paper trail to prove an event. None the less, that does not mean there is no smoke and the case is closed. Thanks Tosh

[William Plumlee]

Tosh,  I'm curious as to what particular files or documents you feel are

un-released on Black?   Unfortunately the NARA search engine seems to

be down this afternoon but when I can I will hit it and post if I see any

unreleased documents on him.

If you have something specific on him that you know is unreleased we can

check it out but that would be new to me......also you had asked

if researchers had ever interviewed him and the answer on that would be

yes they have.  Rappleye and Becker interviewed him and in fact researched

him at some length for their book on Roselli, that was in the early 90's.   Morrow interviewed him earlier but got nothing more than dinner conversation as I recall.  Schriber did some digging on him when he wrote his book on the "Bobby Baker Affair."  

About the only thing that Rapplyeve and Becker found was that Black denied

passing on a warning to Roselli that was described by friends and relatives.  That may well have been because Black would have had to explain why he was well enough connected to get a rumor that a contract was out on Roselli.  Such a contract has been mentioned by oher associates of Roselli but of course that's something in the rumor class.

-- Larry

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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Not sure if you would call this "spacific" perhaps only "interest". Perhaps the following "background information" will lead to something 'spacific".

In 1998, a Miami Dade Homicide detective mentioned to me that all the files on Fred Black Jr. had NOT been released to them in reference to Blacks associations with Johnnny Rosellie and others. It was said (to me) their investigators (homicide) had ran into a brick wall, as to Fred Black's previous military background and some government contacts had been omitted or withheld because of 'National Security'. I was ask, at the time, if I knew anything about his (Blacks) activities and association with Johnney Rosellie and others. I was under the impression Blaack might have been a suspect, or had knowledge, about the death of Rosellie. Again, I was under the impression that his private business dealings, which had been widely known, and all that other stuff is what they obtained and not information that had perhaps been classified for whatever reasons.

About two years later, I was contacted by a person in Miami law enforcement who told me the John Rosellie case was being looked into again (the case has never been closed, 'cold case' classification) and my name had been mentioned because of the FBI 62 file of 1976, Phoenix OO, and other sources. This FBI-62 and another 105, had NOT been given to Dade County at the time of the orginal investigation of the murder because my file had been classified. (My files were not declassified until 1978. Why? I have no idea.)

I contacted Miami Homicide and was put in touch with a detective who had been assigned the case, or was familiar with the details of the investigation. I talked to him and we were in process of setting a meeting in Miami. Within two weeks I was contacted by two FBI agents who ask why I was interested in contacts with Dade county. I refused to disscuss the mater and they left. The next day the Miami meeting was cancelled. I was told the Rosellie and Black mater was classified National Securety and I would be contacted by federal investigators. After a few weeks, I contacted federal authorites and they in turn told me the Rosellie and Fred Black Jr. matter was a government matter and I did not have the proper clearences necessary to discuss the matter with them.

That is why I ask the forum about information on the matter. Seems to me information is being with held or lost as to the indepth investigation of Black and that makes me ask questions as to the nature of what has been released. Has everything been released or is there other government matters we no nothing about still locked up somewhere, being withheld for whatever reasons..? If so, I would like to know the reasons..... Thanks Larry for the help. Sometimes, as you should know, there is no paper trail to prove an event. None the less, that does not mean there is no smoke and the case is closed. Thanks Tosh

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P.S. Question to the forum.

Have you ever seen a baby pigon being born? If you have'nt, then that proves pigons don't exist. Thanks Tosh

[Larry Hancock]

That's a good lead Tosh, and maybe I can help a bit there.

I have the file on the local investigation of the Roselli murder and several of the internal memoranda from the agents as well as their requests for information on a list of individuals. Black was on the list and there were several other names including Cuban names. In addition to background information on associations the investigators (in the same letters) asked for the names of any exiles who Roselli had named in his confidential HSCA interviews.

(On a side note, we know from Roselli's lawyers that in his last testimony he did give names for a couple of Trafficante people that he had used to network into Cuba to find folks to plant the poison pills - apparently word that he had mentioned some real names did get back to Miami and that may have led to the contract on him).

Anyway, by asking for those names, the investigators pressed the normal CIA hot button for protecting information and CIA began its typical stonewalling process - reading their correspondance gives one a good feel for their prorities and certainly protecting sources and methods always comes before minor things like solving muders...

These internal memos do include short profiles for some of the names including Black (for internal consumption only; sort of like the ones produced internally during the Garrison investigation - not to give out of course but just a quick look to see if they should really be worried about the names being requested. As I recall they did list some very basic info. about Black but nothing suggesting any Agency association). However they essentially refused to provide anything to the invistigators at all and as far as I can tell they didn't, as usual defending their general right not to disclose information and invoking National Security as a blanket justification (sort of like Presidential Previlege...sigh).

You are certainly right that the investigators wanted to know about Black - but he was only one person on the list. One lead the guys were following was that not long before his death Roselli had gone back to LA and reportedly had some meetings which they thought certain parties might have interpreted as Roselli thinking about coming out of retirement - leading to some push back and perhaps a contract on him.

-- hope that helps, Larry

[Larry Hancock]

Tim, I don't really play games with this subject - so no its not.

I have seen Roselli described as a Col. in a couple of places, Brad Ayars is one source for that. I think Hinckle and Turner may have described him as having a military rank too. However I don't recall ever seeing any CIA document that confirms that - frankly after looking at thousands of such documents that doesn't mean I haven't seen it, it very well could mean I saw it and have forgotten - my memory is fair but far from photographic. I think that if I had seen such a document I would have referenced it and put it in my book though....maybe somebody will remind me it's in there... After about 14 years at this my memory "buffer" is overflowing, no doubt about that.

If you have seen it and can describe the source I may well remember it and probably have it somewhere in my files or on CD. In that case I would add it to my errata and credit you as I have a host of people who are helping me make that work as historically accurate as possible.

-- Larry