In All Fairness, Regarding Shelley and Lovelady

[Robert Prudhomme]

In the spirit of keeping an open mind, I've gone back over the first day statement of Bill Shelley, and taken a closer look at the end of the Darnell film.

As I re-read Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, I began to wonder if I had not misinterpreted one important thing Shelley had stated.

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."

I had assumed the "corner of the park" to be synonymous with the "little concrete island" (where the traffic light pole is located) but now I'm beginning to wonder if they are not two separate things that just happen to lie next to each other.

The photo below should help to explain this:

View of Elm St. from the steps of the TSBD

Just a guess but, I'm thinking now that the "concrete island" with the traffic light on it might end where the small crowd is congregated around the sign post, as the sidewalk on Elm St. begins at this point. The "corner of the park" might not begin until the large concrete column seen behind the taxi.

As there is no retaining wall or shrubbery from the concrete column to the end of the concrete island, a person returning from the Elm St. sidewalk to the TSBD steps, such as Gloria Calvery, would naturally leave the sidewalk after passing the concrete column, and head directly to the steps.

If Gloria Calvery was not actually down by the Stemmons sign but was, rather, much closer to the TSBD, how long would it take her to reach the concrete column? Did she leave before the last shot?

In the Darnell film, two men, whom many believe to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, can be seen walking past the concrete island on the Elm St. extension, as Baker sprints from the island toward the TSBD. Darnell pans to the right to follow Baker, and we lose sight of the two men. However, when Darnell pans back to the left, I believe we get a glimpse of these two men again, and it appears to me, at least, one might be slowing down near the "corner of the park".

Could this be Shelley, and could he have spotted Gloria Calvery, stopped at the corner of the park and crying?

This, by no means, is any confirmation of Shelley and Lovelady walking to the rail yards together, as I am still convinced the two men in Darnell have nothing to do with each other. It also raises some other questions that are just as difficult to answer.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

In the spirit of keeping an open mind, I've gone back over the first day statement of Bill Shelley, and taken a closer look at the end of the Darnell film.

As I re-read Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, I began to wonder if I had not misinterpreted one important thing Shelley had stated.

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."

I had assumed the "corner of the park" to be synonymous with the "little concrete island" (where the raffic light pole is located) but now I'm beginning to wonder if they are not two separate things that just happen to lie next to each other.

The photo below should help to explain this:

View of Elm St. from the steps of the TSBD

Just a guess but, I'm thinking now that the "concrete island" with the traffic light on it might end where the small crowd is congregated around the sign post, as the sidewalk on Elm St. begins at this point. The "corner of the park" might not begin until the large concrete column seen behind the taxi.

As there is no retaining wall or shrubbery from the concrete column to the end of the concrete island, a person returning from the Elm St. sidewalk to the TSBD steps, such as Gloria Calvery, would naturally leave the sidewalk after passing the concrete column, and head directly to the steps.

If Gloria Calvery was not actually down by the Stemmons sign but was, rather, much closer to the TSBD, how long would it take her to reach the concrete column? Did she leave before the last shot?

In the Darnell film, two men, whom many believe to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, can be seen walking past the concrete island on the Elm St. extension, as Baker sprints from the island toward the TSBD. Darnell pans to the right to follow Baker, and we lose sight of the two men. However, when Darnell pans back to the left, I believe we get a glimpse of these two men again, and it appears to me, at least, one might be slowing down near the "corner of the park".

Could this be Shelley, and could he have spotted Gloria Calvery, stopped at the corner of the park and crying?

This by no means is any confirmation of Shelley and Lovelady walking to the rail yards together, as I am still convinced the two men in Darnell have nothing to do with each other. It also raises some other questions that are just as difficult to answer.

Robert,

That's pretty much what I was suggesting a few weeks ago when I posted the "very short Couch / Darnell GIF" which I claimed showed Shelley crossing over Elm Street Extension towards the island / peninsula, while my putative "Lovelady" continued walking / running towards the railway yards / parking lot.

I'm looking forward to somebody's "stepping up to the plate," and his or her stabilizing (?), blowing up, and / or enhancing the "Possible-Lovelady" talking with "Lady In Black" on the steps in Darnell.

--Tommy, the Droll

Edited December 24, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

In the spirit of keeping an open mind, I've gone back over the first day statement of Bill Shelley, and taken a closer look at the end of the Darnell film.

As I re-read Shelley's statement of 22/11/63, I began to wonder if I had not misinterpreted one important thing Shelley had stated.

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery who is an employee of this same building."

I had assumed the "corner of the park" to be synonymous with the "little concrete island" (where the raffic light pole is located) but now I'm beginning to wonder if they are not two separate things that just happen to lie next to each other.

The photo below should help to explain this:

View of Elm St. from the steps of the TSBD

Just a guess but, I'm thinking now that the "concrete island" with the traffic light on it might end where the small crowd is congregated around the sign post, as the sidewalk on Elm St. begins at this point. The "corner of the park" might not begin until the large concrete column seen behind the taxi.

As there is no retaining wall or shrubbery from the concrete column to the end of the concrete island, a person returning from the Elm St. sidewalk to the TSBD steps, such as Gloria Calvery, would naturally leave the sidewalk after passing the concrete column, and head directly to the steps.

If Gloria Calvery was not actually down by the Stemmons sign but was, rather, much closer to the TSBD, how long would it take her to reach the concrete column? Did she leave before the last shot?

In the Darnell film, two men, whom many believe to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, can be seen walking past the concrete island on the Elm St. extension, as Baker sprints from the island toward the TSBD. Darnell pans to the right to follow Baker, and we lose sight of the two men. However, when Darnell pans back to the left, I believe we get a glimpse of these two men again, and it appears to me, at least, one might be slowing down near the "corner of the park".

Could this be Shelley, and could he have spotted Gloria Calvery, stopped at the corner of the park and crying?

This by no means is any confirmation of Shelley and Lovelady walking to the rail yards together, as I am still convinced the two men in Darnell have nothing to do with each other. It also raises some other questions that are just as difficult to answer.

Robert,

That's pretty much what I was suggesting a few weeks ago when I posted the "very short Couch / Darnell GIF" which I claimed showed Shelley crossing over Elm Street Extension towards the island / peninsula, while my putative "Lovelady" continued walking / running towards the railway yards / parking lot.

I'm looking forward to somebody's "stepping up to the plate," and his or her stabilizing (?), blowing up, and / or enhancing the "Possible-Lovelady" talking with "Lady In Black" on the steps in Darnell.

--Tommy, the Droll

I see certain members at ROKC have "stepped up to the plate" for us and deduced that our "Possible-Lovelady" is either a white haired dude or a blonde haired woman with short hair. Of course, this was only after they turned the contrast up so high, PL's entire head was a blob of bright white.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Thomas

Just looking at the Altgens 6 photo again.

The almost obscured woman you pointed out as a possible candidate for Gloria Calvery, just barely seen behind the lady marked as # 2, would not have very far to get to get to the "corner of the park", if such a point was defined by the concrete column seen again in this photo.

The comparative photo below shows the distance a bit better but, it is still difficult to get a good idea of the distance involved.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Another view:

Did Shelley get just past the tree, and spot Gloria Calvery by the concrete column? It would make sense, psychologically, for her to flee what she had seen, only to stop once she had the concrete column between her and the assassination; making something of a barrier between her and the horror she had witnessed.

Perhaps the tail end of the Darnell clip, when Darnell pans back to the left, should be studied more closely.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Now that I have conceded the possibility that Shelley crossed paths with Baker near the traffic light, Thomas, and possibly ran into Gloria Calvery a little further down by the concrete column, we should examine how this affects the outcome of the "developing theory" you claim I am working on, which I actually am.

I believe we are still attempting to answer the question: Did Shelley and Lovelady OR just Shelley OR just Lovelady leave the steps of the TSBD, immediately after the last shot, and walk down the Elm St, extension to the rail yards; returning to the TSBD a few minutes later and re-entering the building through a door near the rear elevators?

To do so, let's ask some simple questions.

1. Does this new revelation prove that Shelley AND Lovelady left the steps together?

No, not at all. All this would establish is that Shelley crossed the extension and ran into Calvery at the corner of the park.

2. Does this new revelation prove that Shelley and Lovelady OR just Shelley OR just Lovelady walked down to the rail yards?

No, not at all. Following his meeting with Calvery at the corner of the park, Shelley could have gone back inside the building, just as he stated in his first day statement. Without evidence to the contrary, we must assume he went back via the front entrance.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Gene Kelly]

Bob:

FWIW, I think William Shelley deserves attention. He is a person of interest in my book (not written yet). His movements before/after the event are important for many reasons. Not sure why so many push the idea of him moving towards the railroad yards.

Gene

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is a passage from Buell Wesley Frazier's WC testimony, just to confuse things a little more. Is the woman he speaks of Gloria Calvery?

"Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.
Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir?
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several."

[Sandy Larsen]

Maybe these photos help.

Note that the forefround of the first photo is distorted due to the way the panoramic Google camera works. You can see this with the curved sidewalk that is, of course, supposed to be straight. The image is more true further back.

You can see the "park corner" in the top photo.

The metal post attached to the sidewalk is an overhead traffic sign. This can be seen in the overhead photo, from which you can get a more accurate understanding of relative locations.

Possible-Calvery is standing a short distance west of the overhead sign post. I estimate the size of the sidewalk sections to be about 6 feet square. From which I estimate the length of sidewalk from the post to the middle of the concrete column to about 12 feet.

To me it appears that supposed-Shelley had walked nearly to the end of the TSBD building before the video ends. So it seems he'd have to backtrack some when crossing the street to meet up with Calvery at the park corner. (Note that the first photo gives a false impression of where the building ends relative to the sign post and concrete column)

Edited December 26, 2015 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Here is a passage from Buell Wesley Frazier's WC testimony, just to confuse things a little more. Is the woman he speaks of Gloria Calvery?

Frazier talks as though he doesn't know who the woman is.

"Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL - A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER - Sir?

Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several."

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is a passage from Buell Wesley Frazier's WC testimony, just to confuse things a little more. Is the woman he speaks of Gloria Calvery?

Frazier talks as though he doesn't know who the woman is.

"Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL - A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER - Sir?

Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several."

Or is he simply dodging Ball's questions about her?

[Sandy Larsen]

Here is a passage from Buell Wesley Frazier's WC testimony, just to confuse things a little more. Is the woman he speaks of Gloria Calvery?

Frazier talks as though he doesn't know who the woman is.

"Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL - A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER - Sir?

Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several."

Or is he simply dodging Ball's questions about her?

I see the problem where Frazier says he believes Lovelady (and others) went away from the steps.

But why would Frazier dodge a question about Calvery? (Am I missing something?) I thought Frazier seemed to be on the up and up.

(Though it seems like I once saw him in a video agreeing that Oswald could have been carrying a rifle as he walked from his car. Either that, or that the bag might have been long enough for a rifle. I forget. But I remember being surprised by what he said.)

Anyway, it does appear from the testimony that Frazier did indeed dodge the question. He was specifically asked the woman's name, and he replied with a different answer.