Brennan's lineup

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

David...it's a weirdly strange thing with you, digging up all of this media for your website and yet believing that *that's* what happened.  Could it be because you're of of those flag-lapel wearing, flag-waving "USA USA" kind of guys, believing your government got it 100% right?

I'm just trying to figure it out here.

Well, Michael, just from an "EVIDENCE" standpoint, you surely don't deny (do you?) that all of the physical evidence in BOTH the JFK and Tippit murders points directly at Lee Oswald....right? (How could you possibly deny that basic fact?)

And as Vince Bugliosi loved to say....

"If you're innocent of a crime, chances are there's not going to be any evidence whatsoever pointing to your guilt."

Therefore, how is it even remotely possible for Oswald to be innocent of TWO murders when so much evidence exists that says otherwise?

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

I really and truly question whether you [DiEugenio] even read posts that challenge your views.  "He just likes to hear himself talk" is a phrase that comes to mind.

This quote pretty much says it all about Jimbo....

"It's not my job to say what really happened. I am part of the defense team." -- Jim DiEugenio; July 26, 2015 *

* Source: http://educationforum.com/topic/22122

 

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Steve Thomas]

It was suggested that Brennan appears in Box 15, Folder# 2, Item# 63 of the DPD Archives.

 

Brennan does not appear in this citation.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

If Howard Brennan did participate in a lineup at Dallas Police Headquarters,

1) Who were the "suspects" that were shown to the witness or witnesses?

2) Who were the police that were with the suspects?

3) Who were the witnesses?

4) Who were the police and/or others who were with the witness and/or witnesses?

 

1) The only "suspect" that I can find that was questioned was Don Ables, and when he testified to the WC, he was not asked, nor did he volunteer any information about a lineup at which Brennan was a witness. Is anyone aware of an FBI interview with Don Ables or Ellis Brazwell where they asked them about a Brennan lineup?

2) No police who accompanied the suspects at the 7:55 PM Davis sisters' lineup reports or testifies that he was at a Brennan lineup.

3) Neither of the Davis sisters testified that Brennan was at a lineup with them.

The closes thing I can come to here is when Barbara Davis told the WC that:

Mr. BALL. Were you shown a group of people in the police station and asked if you could identify the man?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you alone in that room when you were shown these people?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you?
Mrs. DAVIS. My husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other men.
Mr. BALL. That is your husband Troy, your sister-in-law Virginia Davis, and yourself, and other men?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were police officers there?
Mrs. DAVIS. They were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room.

4) None of the police who were with the Davis sisters reported or testified that they attended a lineup where Howard Brennan was a witness.

Only Brennan, Forrest Sorrels and perhaps Winston Lawson testified that they were there.

 

So, who was there at Brennan's lineup?

 

I am not suggesting that Brennan was not at "a" lineup. What I am suggesting is that if he was at a lineup, it was not the lineup the Davis sisters were at. What he may or may not have said at such a lineup has been a debate for more than 50 years now.

 

Just as an aside, and this is not germane to the question at hand, I found it curious what Barbara Davis had to say about the man who cut across her lawn, maybe seven to eight steps, 20-25 feet away  at 10th and Patton:

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw him running across the lawn?
Mrs. DAVIS. All except he didn't have a black coat on when I saw him in the lineup.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color coat?
Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.

 

Mr. BALL. I have a jacket, I would like to show you, which is Commission Exhibit No. 162. Does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that was going across your lawn?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. How is it different?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. Like more of a sporting jacket.

 

Mr. BALL. And the color of his clothes?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I said he had on--he looked to me that he had on dark trousers, and it looked like a light colored shirt, with a dark coat over it.

 

*Shrug*. I don't know. It was just curious to me.

 

Steve Thomas

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

It was suggested that Brennan appears in Box 15, Folder# 2, Item# 63 of the DPD Archives.

 

Brennan does not appear in this citation.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

 The 4 line-ups were in reference to the shooting of Tippit, and all the witnesses mentioned therein were there in reference to the shooting of Tippit. The reason for that 'citation' existing is to show that every witness to the shooting of Tippit who was brought to a line-up positively identified Oswald as the shooter of Tippit. The 'citation' is then 'inclusive' in regards to the shooting of Tippit - that's the point of it. Should we really expect a p.s. on it that says 'oh by the way at one of the line-ups we took advantage of it happening by bringing in a witness to the shooting of Kennedy but he 'failed' to positively identify Oswald, and seen as that was nothing to do with the reason the line up was happening we didn't tell the other witnesses or indeed the Police officers why we were there because we were there for a different reason than they were and didn't want to confuse things unnecessarily.'

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

If Howard Brennan did participate in a lineup at Dallas Police Headquarters,

1) Who were the "suspects" that were shown to the witness or witnesses?

2) Who were the police that were with the suspects?

3) Who were the witnesses?

4) Who were the police and/or others who were with the witness and/or witnesses?

 

Yep Brennan did 'participate' in a lineup, inasmuch as he was 'shoehorned' in to the line up that was done for the benefit of the Davis sisters in regards to the shooting of Tippit. It's important to realise that although Brennan and the Davis sisters viewed the same lineup at the same time, they were still two different and disteinct occurences, and they needed to be that because they were there for different reasons.

Suspects: Borchgardt/Oswald/Brazel/Ables
Police with suspects: Sims/Boyd/Hall/Moore
Witnesses: Barbara and Virginia Davis
Police with witnesses: Brown/Dhority

The Police who brought the suspects in would no doubt have been told that the reason for the line up was because the Davis sisters were being brought in as witnesses to the Tippit shooting. The Davis sisters would no doubt have been told that the line up was set up for their benefit by the police with them who would no doubt have thought that the line up was set up for the Davis sisters only. Why? Because the line up was set up for the express purpose of having the Davis sisters come in as witnesses to see if they could possitively identify Oswald as the shooter of Tippit - nothing more and nothing less.

Then, separately, the situation was taken advantage of and Sorrels & Lawson took Brennan (a witness to the shooting of Kennedy) in to the same line up but as it was in regards to a different case didn't bother to tell the suspects in the lineup or the Police with the suspects or the other witnesses or the police with the other witnesses. They had no reason to tell anyone else...

flip it round, all of the others at the lineup were already in place when Sorrels & Lawson took Brennan in, from their point of view (at the time) all they are seeing is 3 other people come in to the room they would have no reason to assume that it was 2 people with another witness, they would have been more likely to presume it was just 3 people coming in . Sure, Brown and Dhority may have recognised Sorrels & Lawson and not recognised the 3rd man, but they would have no reason to know at first it was a man there as a witness, and there is certainly no reason why they would have known his name.

It's two different 'sets' of people then - set (a) Davis sisters, Brown and Dhority and set (b) Sorrels, Lawson and Brennan. Sets (a) and (b) were in the same room at the same time and saw the same line up, but they were both there for different reasons and as such were seperate, there was no need for any 'introductions' between the two sets...

 

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

If Howard Brennan did participate in a lineup at Dallas Police Headquarters,

 

1) The only "suspect" that I can find that was questioned was Don Ables, and when he testified to the WC, he was not asked, nor did he volunteer any information about a lineup at which Brennan was a witness. Is anyone aware of an FBI interview with Don Ables or Ellis Brazwell where they asked them about a Brennan lineup?

First there was no 'Brennan lineup' - he was 'shoehorned' in to the 'Davis sisters lineup'. Note in Ables WC testimony he makes no mention, in regards to that lineup, of the name of the police officers that brought him and the other 'suspects' in to the room, and he didn't know the names at all of the other 'suspects' (apart from obviously Oswald) and he also makes no mention of the police officers that brought the Davis sisters in and indeed doesn't mention the Davis sisters at all - in fact, he does not mention the name of any of the 'audience' - Ables may well have recognised some, if not all, the officers etc in the room but he had no reason to recognise any witnesses brought in let alone what their name could be...

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

2) No police who accompanied the suspects at the 7:55 PM Davis sisters' lineup reports or testifies that he was at a Brennan lineup.

The perception of the police who accompanied the suspects was that the lineup was for the purpose only of having the Davis sisters pick out Oswald for the shooting of Tippit, they would have no reason to think that anyone else that came in the room was there as a witness, let alone know the name of Brennan... Sure, after the fact, they may have realised/been told that another witness had been brought in and that person was Brennan, so why would they not mention it in testimony? They may have felt it superflous to do so because the reason for the lineup was about the shooting of Tippit which was a different reason as to why Brennan was brought in...

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

3) Neither of the Davis sisters testified that Brennan was at a lineup with them.

The closes thing I can come to here is when Barbara Davis told the WC that:

Mr. BALL. Were you shown a group of people in the police station and asked if you could identify the man?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you alone in that room when you were shown these people?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you?
Mrs. DAVIS. My husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other men.
Mr. BALL. That is your husband Troy, your sister-in-law Virginia Davis, and yourself, and other men?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?
Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were police officers there?
Mrs. DAVIS. They were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room.

 

Considering that no doubt the Davis sisters had been told beforehand that the lineup was especially for them, they would have no reason to think that, on seeing 3 people come in, that that meant 2 'agents' and 1 extra witness, they would have just thought/presumed '3 agents'... anyway, you have Barbara Davis saying that in the room at the same time there were men (more than 2!) in suits who were not police officers, she would have no reason to know any of their names or the purpose for them being there, but we can infer she has seen Sorrels, Lawson and Brennan.

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

4) None of the police who were with the Davis sisters reported or testified that they attended a lineup where Howard Brennan was a witness.

 

As with the officers who brought in the suspects, the perception of Brown & Dhority was that the lineup was for the purpose only of having the Davis sisters pick out Oswald for the shooting of Tippit, they would have no reason to think that anyone else that came in the room was there as a witness, let alone know the name of Brennan... Sure, after the fact, they may have realised/been told that another witness had been brought in and that person was Brennan, so why would they not mention it in testimony? They may have felt it superflous to do so because the reason for the lineup was about the shooting of Tippit which was a different reason as to why Brennan was brought in... also there is no reason to assume that at a later point they would have come across the name Brennan or, even if they did, that they would remember it or see it's in importance...

Nevertheless, although both Brown & Dhority make no mention of the name of Brennan in their WC testimony, Brown does make mention of other 'witnesses there in regards the shooting of the President and Dhority makes mention of other 'witnesses' being there at the same time.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification?
Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses on either Officer Tippit or-the President's assassination.

&

Mr. BALL. I know--but how was it conducted--did somebody ask questions?
Mr. DHORITY. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and there was other people there at the same time looking at them.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup?
Mr. DHORITY. I think they did.

That is both Brown and Dhority saying that at the time they were at a line up with the Davis sisters that, in the room at the same time, there were others there looking at - without actually naming who the inference has to be that they are talking about Sorrels, Lawson and Brennan.

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Only Brennan, Forrest Sorrels and perhaps Winston Lawson testified that they were there.

 

Above it is has been shown that Barbara Davis, Brown and Dhority all testified that at the same time they were there other people were there also viewing the lineup (Davis said 'men in suits', Brown said 'witnesses to President's assassination, Dhority said 'other people there at the same time looking at them (the lineup)' - the inference can be drawn that each of the things they said was in reference (backhandedly, and indirectly) to Brennan, Sorrels and Lawson.

 

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

So, who was there at Brennan's lineup?

 

I am not suggesting that Brennan was not at "a" lineup. What I am suggesting is that if he was at a lineup, it was not the lineup the Davis sisters were at. What he may or may not have said at such a lineup has been a debate for more than 50 years now.

 

There was no 'Brennan lineup'... it was the 'Davis lineup', and it's just that Brennan was 'shoehorned in' and whilst being there at the same time it was still kept separate as the reason for him being there was separate to the reason the lineup was set up.

Regards

[Steve Thomas]

54 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

There was no 'Brennan lineup'... it was the 'Davis lineup', and it's just that Brennan was 'shoehorned in' and whilst being there at the same time it was still kept separate as the reason for him being there was separate to the reason the lineup was set up.

Regards

Alistair,

 

I agree with you that the Davis sisters were brought in to view a lineup in respect to what they saw regarding Officer Tippit getting shot. After that I believe they were ushered out. There wouldn't haven't been any reason for them to stay. I believe that you think Brennan was brought in while they were still in the room, but I think you are forgetting what Sorrels told the WC, " He (Fritz) said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up.""

 

Steve Thomas

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

It was suggested that Brennan appears in Box 15, Folder# 2, Item# 63 of the DPD Archives.

 

Brennan does not appear in this citation.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

That was indeed my mistake, which is bizarre because I actually LOOKED at the document yesterday.  I can only conclude the conspirators purged the version referring to Brennan from the City of Dallas website as soon as they realized I was onto them.    Actually, it's Box 6, Folder 1, Item 73, page 3, which David Jospehs clearly stated when he originally posted it.  Apparently I need to limit my consumption of Guinness Stout when participating here.

I just confirmed that this document is not in the 410 pages of production by the DPD to the WC (CE 2003, Vol. XXIV).  The show-up list is on page 293 of CE 2003 (page 153 of the PDF).  I suppose the omission of this document and the failure to list Brennan on the show-up list provided to the WC could be viewed as "suspicious," except for the fact that it never seems to have been a secret that Brennan failed to identify LHO.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Guest

[Alistair Briggs]

42 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Alistair,

 

I agree with you that the Davis sisters were brought in to view a lineup in respect to what they saw regarding Officer Tippit getting shot. After that I believe they were ushered out. There wouldn't haven't been any reason for them to stay. I believe that you think Brennan was brought in while they were still in the room...

Yes I think that Brennan was brought in while the Davis sisters were still in the room...

The room would be 'darkened' and there would be a 'stage' that the 'suspects' would stand on under bright lights...

• Sims, Boyd, Hall and Moore arrange and handcuff Borchgardt, Oswald, Brazel and Able in readiness 'off stage' for the lineup.
• Brown and Dhority accompany Barbara and Virginia Davis into one end of the assembly room and have them sit down.
• Moments later, Sorrels and Lawson accompany Brennan into the assembly room.
• The signal is given and the officers then march the 'suspects' under the bright lights of the stage.

As soon as Oswald appear in the 'bright light' and before the 'suspects' have truly settled under their numbers the Davis sisters react to him. And both identify to Brown and Dhority that Oswald was the one they saw at Tippit's murder scene. Simultaneously, in the same assembly room, but at the other side of the room, Brennan is telling Sorrels that he cannot positively say.

*I've already given the reasons to belive that Brennan was there at the same time as the Davis sisters - 'oblique references in the testimony of Barbara Davis, Brown and Dhority, to other witnesses in regards to the shooting of Kennedy, without them actually naming Brennan, it can't be in reference to anyone else.

57 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

... but I think you are forgetting what Sorrels told the WC, " He (Fritz) said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up.""

 

Nope not forgetting what Sorrels told the WC....

At approx. 6:20 Sorrels tells Fritz that he has a witness (Brennan) and he would for him to get a chance to see Oswald in a lineup. Fritz says that's fine. Sorrels then sets about tracking him down and bringing him in!

At 6:30 a lineup is taking place for for Guinyard, Callaway and McWatters.

Between 6:20 and approx. 6:50 Sorrels has located Brennan and Brennan is brought in to the PD!

At approx. 6:50 Barbara Davis phones Fritz's office to say that she, and her sister, has found a .38 caliber shell in their yard after the police left that afternoon. She speaks to T P Wells on the phone, who then turns to Brown and Dhority and instructs them to go over there and retrieve the shell.

At the same time, Sorrels is in the same office talking to Fritz and tells him that Brennan is at the police HQ right now, that's when Fritz replies I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup (the 6:30 line up. Note that what Fritz is saying is that had he known Brennan was there in time for that line up he would have 'shoehorned' Brennan in to that one!) but we will get another fixed up. Fritz then turns to Brown and Dhority just before they leave to go and retrieve the shell and instructs them to instead bring the Davis sisters in, get a statement, and then a lineup will be arranged for them.

Two birds, one stone.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Fritz then turns to Brown and Dhority just before they leave to go and retrieve the shell and instructs them to instead bring the Davis sisters in, get a statement, and then a lineup will be arranged for them.

Two birds, one stone.

Aidstair,

 

Just out of curiosity, I looked at the timing of the affidavits and the lineups the other day. Not that's it's germane to the question here, but in the Davis sisters' case, that's the only time I could find, where their affidavits were taken after their lineup. With all of the other lineup witnesses, their affidavits were taken before their lineups.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Von Pein]

At the same time, Sorrels is in the same office talking to Fritz and tells him that Brennan is at the police HQ right now, that's when Fritz replies I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup (the 6:30 line up. Note that what Fritz is saying is that had he known Brennan was there in time for that line up he would have 'shoehorned' Brennan in to that one!) but we will get another fixed up. Fritz then turns to Brown and Dhority just before they leave to go and retrieve the shell and instructs them to instead bring the Davis sisters in, get a statement, and then a lineup will be arranged for them. Two birds, one stone.

Excellent, Alistair. The chronology you laid out makes perfect sense to me.

WHY anyone wants to pretend Howard Brennan never attended a police lineup on 11/22/63 is a big mystery to me. As I asked previously: What purpose would such a charade have served, since Brennan failed to I.D. Oswald? It makes no sense.

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Alistair Briggs]

16 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Just out of curiosity, I looked at the timing of the affidavits and the lineups the other day. Not that's it's germane to the question here, but in the Davis sisters' case, that's the only time I could find, where their affidavits were taken after their lineup. With all of the other lineup witnesses, their affidavits were taken before their lineups.

Can you post the links stating that the affidavits were taken after their lineup?

Regards

[Guest]

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

This quote pretty much says it all about Jimbo....

"It's not my job to say what really happened. I am part of the defense team." -- Jim DiEugenio; July 26, 2015 *

* Source: http://educationforum.com/topic/22122

This actually is an important point.  I've been struck by the approach of the more extreme segments of the conspiracy community, and this absolutely explains it.  They are not truth-seekers, but rather defense attorneys.  The goal of a defense attorney is to sow as much confusion as possible.  The truth be damned.  In this case, the goal is not to defend LHO per se, but to sow as much confusion as possible in the hope that there will one day be enough public outcry to reopen the case and allow them to prove their dark Deep Politics view of the assassination.  The problem being, they have sown so much confusion in so many different directions that they have largely shot themselves in the foot.

I'm a civil attorney, but I spent almost 20 years in prosecutors' offices and knew many criminal defense attorneys very well.  I realized that to keep their sanity in the environment in which they were forced to operate, they had to do two things:  One, they had to genuinely convince themselves that up was down, black was white, lies were truth (and vice versa) and so on and so forth - I used to say that they actually lived in some alternate universe.  Two, even when they knew perfectly well their client had molested three children, they had to convince themselves The System was so corrupt that some greater good would be served by an acquittal.  The parallels to the more extreme segments of the conspiracy community really are striking.

Observations such as this are, of course, of little interest on a forum such as this.  No, we want a microscopic comparison of what Witness X said in his original interview, the FBI report, and his Warren Commission testimony - and a microscopic comparison of how this relates to what Witnesses Y and Z said.  All of which is fine, of course, but I think a lot is to be gained by stepping back and saying, "Wait a minute?  What is really going on here?  What agenda is being promoted?  Does this make any sense at all?"

Edited January 15, 2017 by Guest

[David Von Pein]

My thanks to the participants of this thread. It has provided me with still more material for this 7-year-old article on my site (thank goodness blogs can be edited forever ):

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-36.html

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

15 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Can you post the links stating that the affidavits were taken after their lineup?

You can easily determine that the Davis girls' affidavits were taken after the lineup, because they both refer to the lineup within their individual affidavits:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/jfk-assassination-affidavits.html

Edited January 15, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I've been struck by the approach of the more extreme segments of the conspiracy community....They are not truth-seekers, but rather defense attorneys.

Exactly.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

11 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

You can easily determine that the Davis girls' affidavits were taken after the lineup, because they both refer to the lineup within their individual affidavits:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/jfk-assassination-affidavits.html

Good stuff. I see what you mean. I do think Steve might have been referring to something else though... inasmuch as 'an affidavit taken by Brown or Dhority' rather than those ones taken in front of 'Mary Rattan' and 'Patsy Collins'

Here is what Steve said also, emphasis in bold added...

42 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

Just out of curiosity, I looked at the timing of the affidavits and the lineups the other day. Not that's it's germane to the question here, but in the Davis sisters' case, that's the only time I could find, where their affidavits were taken after their lineup. With all of the other lineup witnesses, their affidavits were taken before their lineups.

From the link you provided David, I checked the one for Callaway and Guinyard and they both mention the lineup in that too...

So I reckon Steve was meaning something else.

Regards