Greatest Figure in the History of the World

[John Simkin]

I hate to trivialize the above post, but for members of the Kennedy Forum (I guess for the Christian members) I found it interesting that in the masterful biography of Johnny Rosselli the authors state that shortly before he was murdered, Rosselli went to an old friend who was a Catholic priest and made his confession.

So, if when you get to Heaven and ask the Lord "Who Really Killed JFK?" and the Lord's answer is: "I have a theory about that", look up Johnny Rosselli.  I suspect he knows!

I would like to get this Catholic priest to join the forum. Unfortunately, he died soon after hearing the confession. He committed suicide by firing two bullets into his brain.

I also think that Jesus Christ is the world's most important historical figure. However, I have this theory that he wasn't really the son of God.

[Tim Gratz]

John, interesting comment about the death of the priest. I'm not sure if that his suicide was mentioned in the Roselli biography or not. Do you consider his death mysterious? Or is it possible he could not stand to live with the secret knowledge of what Rosselli told him (perhaps even including Rosselli's participation in the assassination)? I myself am not a Catholic but it is my understanding that Catholocism abhors suicide and holds that someone who commits suicide may not enter Heaven, so the priest's suicide is curious, at least.

We ought to talk more about why you reject Jesus claim to be the son of God.

But for now I am sure all Forum members can agree on one thing: the world would be a far better place if we all followed Jesus' command to "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

[John Simkin]

Sorry, that was just a joke in poor taste about the priest.

[Tim Gratz]

Sorry, that was just a joke in poor taste about the priest.

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Sorry I did not catch the joke! I thought if he had committed suicide it would have been mentioned in the book.

This stuff probably belongs on the JFK Forum, but Rosselli's confession makes one wonder whether he knew his days were numbered (granted he was getting up in years anyway). His famous comment when he was encouraged to flee Trafficante was that it would be no use because if Trafficante was really out to get him, he would.

[John Simkin]

We ought to talk more about why you reject Jesus claim to be the son of God.

But for now I am sure all Forum members can agree on one thing: the world would be a far better place if we all followed Jesus' command to "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

The problem is that I am an historian. I therefore have to examine the evidence before I believe anything. There is no scientific evidence that there is a God. To be religious a person needs to have faith. It is something I do not possess.

What I do believe is that Jesus was the world’s most important philosophical and political figure. In that sense, he did show us the way. Some like Martin Luther King has understood the meaning of Jesus’ message. Unfortunately, the vast majority of his followers have not grasped this and as a result have become the problem rather than the solution.

Today I will be celebrating his teachings. I will also forgive him for saying he was the son of God. After all, we are all prisoners of our time.

[Tim Gratz]

We ought to talk more about why you reject Jesus claim to be the son of God.

But for now I am sure all Forum members can agree on one thing: the world would be a far better place if we all followed Jesus' command to "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

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The problem is that I am an historian. I therefore have to examine the evidence before I believe anything. There is no scientific evidence that there is a God. To be religious a person needs to have faith. It is something I do not possess.

What I do believe is that Jesus was the world’s most important philosophical and political figure. In that sense, he did show us the way. Some like Martin Luther King has understood the meaning of Jesus’ message. Unfortunately, the vast majority of his followers have not grasped this and as a result have become the problem rather than the solution.

Today I will be celebrating his teachings. I will also forgive him for saying he was the son of God. After all, we are all prisoners of our time.

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John, this could be an interesting discussion.

I believe there are valid scientific reasons that suggest the existence of a God who designed the universe.

But let's start with Jesus. If Jesus was raised from the dead, that certainly proves that there is a God. The transformation that occured in his followers following the resurrection (including their willingness to sacrifice their lives for their faith) is demonstration that they had witnessed proof of the resurrection.

You are correct that Martin Luther King's life and teachings were based on Jesus' teachings--certainly more so than on Ghandi although Ghandi's non-resistance to evil and violence were also consistent with Jesus' teachings. You are also correct that not all those who claim to be Christians follow his teachings and are, as you put it, "part of the problem". I suggest, however, that another proof of the existence of God would be in lives that have been transformed after their acceptance of Christ. I would point out Chuck Colson's as one. He went from being a person who would "walk over his grandmother" for Richard Nixon to one who has selflessly dedicated his life to prison reform. There are, of course, many other examples of people whose lives have been dramatically changed.

In any event, merry Christmas to you and your family (and all the members of your Forums). We can all, with you, celebrate today the teachings of Jesus and the hope of peace on earth and good will among people of all nationalties, races and ethnicities.

[Dawn Meredith]

We ought to talk more about why you reject Jesus claim to be the son of God.

But for now I am sure all Forum members can agree on one thing: the world would be a far better place if we all followed Jesus' command to "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem is that I am an historian. I therefore have to examine the evidence before I believe anything. There is no scientific evidence that there is a God. To be religious a person needs to have faith. It is something I do not possess.

What I do believe is that Jesus was the world’s most important philosophical and political figure. In that sense, he did show us the way. Some like Martin Luther King has understood the meaning of Jesus’ message. Unfortunately, the vast majority of his followers have not grasped this and as a result have become the problem rather than the solution.

Today I will be celebrating his teachings. I will also forgive him for saying he was the son of God. After all, we are all prisoners of our time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, this could be an interesting discussion.

I believe there are valid scientific reasons that suggest the existence of a God who designed the universe.

But let's start with Jesus. If Jesus was raised from the dead, that certainly proves that there is a God. The transformation that occured in his followers following the resurrection (including their willingness to sacrifice their lives for their faith) is demonstration that they had witnessed proof of the resurrection.

You are correct that Martin Luther King's life and teachings were based on Jesus' teachings--certainly more so than on Ghandi although Ghandi's non-resistance to evil and violence were also consistent with Jesus' teachings. You are also correct that not all those who claim to be Christians follow his teachings and are, as you put it, "part of the problem". I suggest, however, that another proof of the existence of God would be in lives that have been transformed after their acceptance of Christ. I would point out Chuck Colson's as one. He went from being a person who would "walk over his grandmother" for Richard Nixon to one who has selflessly dedicated his life to prison reform. There are, of course, many other examples of people whose lives have been dramatically changed.

In any event, merry Christmas to you and your family (and all the members of your Forums). We can all, with you, celebrate today the teachings of Jesus and the hope of peace on earth and good will among people of all nationalties, races and ethnicities.

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_________________________________

Great posts on this lovely Christmas morning.

Tim: I have read all CS Lewis' books and LOVE him. I have been a Christian my entire life. John is right, if you lack faith it's hard to "believe". I have many friends who act like Christians but call themselves athiests. Conversely I see so much of the opposite in people who call themselves Christians. Hate filled busy body types. (I recommend CS Lewis' wonderful little books "The Great Divorce" and "Screwtape letters" , especially, as a way of understanding human psychology, and especially the behaviour on this forum on Christmas eve. Last night after a lovely candlelight chruch service I read the update on the "I won't post here" thread and was ready to tender my own resignation.

Two attacks on me. But, I won't allow my actions to be directed by others' mean spirited remarks.

Tim I only put "attorney" in front of my name as it was not the JFK debate forum, so I figured people would not know me on the birthday party forum.

John is another example of what I mean about people: his actions/words are like those OF a Christian. Same as my frainds who lack faith. It's a paradox I have wrestled with for decades.

But as to evidence for Jesus as God: I have so much of that I could write 10 books if only I have the time. I will make the time. I am no CS Lewis, I tend to write simply, where as he was a master. But I will be more dilligent in that effort.

Oh Tim: see my "favorite dinner guest" list. JFK, CS Lewis and Aldous Huxley who all died 11/22/63. (And that's only part of my list).

Merry Christmas

Dawn

[Adam Wilkinson]

I agree that Nelson Mandela and Gandhi. Should be near the top. Gandhi because of the methods he used to gain power, Mandela because of the way he behaved once in power. Gandhi is important because he influenced that other giant of 20th century politics, Martin Luther King.

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My most admired figures in history are nobody original, Mandela would definately be at the top or near the top of my list, along with Martin Luther King and Gandhi.

[Gregory Carlin]

I am going to give an Irish person as i feel i must but i will also give a world figure if that is ok.

First, Padraig Pearse. He led the Rsing in 1916 and was one of the instigators in the struggle and eventual independece of Ireland from Britain. He was excecuted in May of 1916 a week after the rebellion. He was a great figure in history.

Caroline Hall

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In order to promote struggle as a national identity it is useful to make it a religion.

I do not grudge them: Lord, I do not grudge

My two strong sons that I have seen go out

To break their strength and die, they and a few,

In bloody protest for a glorious thing,

They shall be spoken of among their people,

The generations shall remember them,

And call them blessed;

But I will speak their names to my own heart

In the long nights;

The little names that were familiar once

Round my dead hearth.

Lord, thou art hard on mothers:

We suffer in their coming and their going;

And tho' I grudge them not, I weary, weary

Of the long sorrow--And yet I have my joy:

My sons were faithful, and they fought.

-- Padraic H. Pearse