Marina and Neely St.

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Steve:

Funny story.  These guys were just stooges.  Reminds me of Belin showing that witness the wrong jacket. Or what they did with VIctoria Adams-which takes the cake.  They switched a map of the first floor out and placed Oswald's work application in the volumes.

 

Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a receipt here No. 0178, dated January 4, 1963, "issued to L. H. Oswald for $68 for the rent of Apartment No. 2 from January 3, 1963, to and including February 3, 1963," and it is signed M. F. Tobias, Sr.

Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay. Now, I couldn't swear that that was who the guy was. Now, do you want me to leave the books with you?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; leave the books and we will give them to your husband. Tobias Exhibit No. 1 is offered in evidence.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.

WC testimony of Mr. Mahlon. F. Tobias, Sr. Manager of 602 and 604 Elsbeth

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/tobias_m.htm

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your cooperation. These are your original receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return them to you and thank you very much for bringing them.
 

The only problem is that the receipt books are not in evidence. Tobias Exhibits 1 and 2 in Volume XXI of the WC Hearings are hand drawn maps of the Elsbeth St. neighborhood.

 

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

Steve:

That is what I mean. 

So is there any documentation in evidence that Oswald paid his rent there? 

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Steve:

That is what I mean. 

So is there any documentation in evidence that Oswald paid his rent there? 

Jim,

 

Mr. Tobias was interviewed by FBI Agents, Allan Bray and Raymond Yalchak on January 28, 1964 at which time he showed them rent receipts which were examined, but there is no indication they took the receipts with them.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57771&search=Tobias#relPageId=27&tab=page

 

The Tobiases were interviewed by the WC on April 2, 1964 at which time pages from the rent receipt book were read into the record, but the books themselves were returned to the Tobiases.

Mr. Tobias said,

"Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your cooperation. These are your original receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return them to you and thank you very much for bringing them.
Mr. TOBIAS. I have one of these I keep ever since I been in that apartment and I been there for 3 years and a half and I have got every receipt I ever wrote and I keep it on records and lots of times I have to go back to them and there's only one person that doesn't get into them and that's the credit department."

 

Mrs. Tobias said,

"Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--may I ask you a few questions about that--you keep a record of all receipts?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; we have one--they get one and the owner gets one.
Mr. JENNER. When a rent payment is made, you make an entry in the book you have before you of having received a certain amount of money. It's in duplicate or triplicate--the tenant gets a copy of the receipt, you retain one in your book and you send one of the owners of the building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she gets the name of it..."

 

I do not remember ever seeing any Elsbeth St. rent receipts in the inventory of items seized at 2515 W. Fifth or 1026 N. Beckley.

I'm not aware of any of the earlier researchers from the early 1960's ever going back and asking to see them.

 

Steve Thomas

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 7/17/2019 at 3:18 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

 

Mr. Tobias was interviewed by FBI Agents, Allan Bray and Raymond Yalchak on January 28, 1964 at which time he showed them rent receipts which were examined, but there is no indication they took the receipts with them.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57771&search=Tobias#relPageId=27&tab=page

 

The Tobiases were interviewed by the WC on April 2, 1964 at which time pages from the rent receipt book were read into the record, but the books themselves were returned to the Tobiases.

Mr. Tobias said,

"Mr. JENNER. I appreciate your cooperation. These are your original receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return them to you and thank you very much for bringing them.
Mr. TOBIAS. I have one of these I keep ever since I been in that apartment and I been there for 3 years and a half and I have got every receipt I ever wrote and I keep it on records and lots of times I have to go back to them and there's only one person that doesn't get into them and that's the credit department."

 

Mrs. Tobias said,

"Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--may I ask you a few questions about that--you keep a record of all receipts?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Oh, yes; we have one--they get one and the owner gets one.
Mr. JENNER. When a rent payment is made, you make an entry in the book you have before you of having received a certain amount of money. It's in duplicate or triplicate--the tenant gets a copy of the receipt, you retain one in your book and you send one of the owners of the building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, she gets the name of it..."

 

I do not remember ever seeing any Elsbeth St. rent receipts in the inventory of items seized at 2515 W. Fifth or 1026 N. Beckley.

I'm not aware of any of the earlier researchers from the early 1960's ever going back and asking to see them.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve,

First of all, thanks for the link to the Joachim Joesten book about Marina Oswald. I just finished reading it in its entirety. Joesten's condemnation of the view of Marina as a "poor, innocent victim" is shattered in his telling. She lied to and about "Oswald", both before and after the assassination. (She was subject to deportation for lying on her State Dept. application for entry to the U.S. in 1962 - she claimed she had never been a member of the Komsomol in the USSR, when, in fact, she indeed had been a member as she herself later admitted!)

Harold Weisberg compared Marina to Scheherazade, the legendary Persian storyteller who so beguiled a king with her fantastic tales for 1,001 nights that he not only spared her life, but fell in love with her and married her. As Weisberg dryly noted more than 50 years ago, all, ALL of what Marina/Scheherazade had to say about "Oswald" was only possible because the Dallas Police allowed "Oswald" to be murdered in their custody.

If not for that murder, everything that Marina (wife) might have had to say about a living"Oswald" (husband) would have been privileged communication and thus exempt from examination in court. The prosecution could not have called her to say one syllable about "Oswald." 

Second, I have even further doubts about whether the "Oswald" family as we know them really lived at 214 W. Neely in the spring of 1963. The FBI interviewed two witnesses, Mr. and Mrs. Marvin Friddle who stated: "a young man, his wife and their two small children resided at the upstairs apartment at 214 West Neeley (sic) fro a very short time around April and May of 1963. The only reason they would know this was because they would see him, his wife and children around this house and on the upstairs balcony."

As others have pointed out in years past on this forum, Baby Rachel was not born until October of 1963, so whomever the Friddles spotted occasionally at 214 W. Neely, it could not have been the classic, intact "Oswald" family as we know it. 

Marguerite may have been right: Marina and June may have been living there with a man and another child briefly in the spring of 1963. All of which lends credence to "Oswald's" vehement denials that HE ever lived there!

Mr. BALL. What about the rifle? 
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the Neely Street address and he denied that address. He denied having a picture made over there and he even denied living there. I told him he had people who visited him over there and he said they were just wrong about visiting. 

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve,

Marguerite may have been right: Marina and June may have been living there with a man and another child briefly in the spring of 1963. All of which lends credence to "Oswald's" vehement denials that HE ever lived there!

Paul,

 

I know I am going to catch a lot of flak for this, but, for right now,  I believe that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.

I say this for the following reasons: I can provide citations for these if you'd like.

1. Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card in his possession, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his, and then refused to discuss it further. I think the SS card and the rifle order form were signed by the same person.

2. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three cards” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets and which were not the FPCC membersship card.

3. Marina said on at least three occasions that they were living on Neely St. in January, and initially, that she had seen Lee cleaning the rifle in January (which she later corrected to mean she saw it for the first time in March).

4. The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

5. The troubling instances of evidence in this case in Marina Oswald's possession, appearing after the Oswald's belongings had previously been seized and searched by the Dallas Police.

SS card on top, rifle order form below.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited July 21, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

23 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

I know I am going to catch a lot of flak for this, but, for right now,  I believe that it was Marina who ordered the rifle.

I say this for the following reasons: I can provide citations for these if you'd like.

1. Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card in his possession, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his, and then refused to discuss it further. I think the SS card and the rifle order form were signed by the same person.

2. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three cards” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets and which were not the FPCC membersship card.

3. Marina said on at least three occasions that they were living on Neely St. in January, and initially, that she had seen Lee cleaning the rifle in January (which she later corrected to mean she saw it for the first time in March).

4. The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

5. The troubling instances of evidence in this case in Marina Oswald's possession, appearing after the Oswald's belongings had previously been seized and searched by the Dallas Police.

SS card on top, rifle order form below.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Those signatures do look suspiciously similar. 

If (IF!) Marina ordered a rifle, and if (IF!) it was delivered somewhere, and if (IF!) what was ordered was, in fact, the infamous 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano (CE 139), then where in the world was it between the time it was ordered (whenever that was) and November 22, 1963?

Why would Marina order a rifle - who told her to do so? If the assumption is that her husband commanded her, well, why would he do that? If he had been told to order it as part of something run by his handler/contact, why wouldn't "Oswald" just order it himself? Why get his wife mixed up in whatever it was of which he was a part? Nobody has suggested that Marina was part of a husband/wife team secretly being jointly run/handled by American Intelligence operatives, have they? 

Steve, as you know from having read Joachim Joesten's "Marina Oswald", Joesten speculated about Marina's complicity in setting up her husband. While unlikely, it is not impossible, and therefore, it is not inconceivable that she was a conscious part of the assassination plot.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

If those really are Marina's signatures on the examples you attached above, then I'd say Joachim Joesten made a pretty shrewd guess more than 50 years ago.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Steve,

 

Steve, as you know from having read Joachim Joesten's "Marina Oswald", Joesten speculated about Marina's complicity in setting up her husband. While unlikely, it is not impossible, and therefore, it is not inconceivable that she was a conscious part of the assassination plot.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

If those really are Marina's signatures on the examples you attached above, then I'd say Joachim Joesten made a pretty shrewd guess more than 50 years ago.

Paul,

 

I think Marina was involved in something, but I don't know what it was. Personally, I think it had something to do with inserting her in the Dallas/Fort Worth aerospace industry milieu, but I can't prove that.

I keep going back to a letter that Lee wrote to his mother while he was in Russia.

CE 183

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=561&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=562&tab=page

(page 538 of CE 183)

Letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marguerite Oswald, dated October 22, 1959, with envelope. (The year 1959 is obviously a mistake. It should be 1961.). He mentions Marina in the letter. He spells Marina's maiden name as Proosakova. The typist spells it Proosakava. In his letter he writes, “For my birthday, Marina sent me a gold and silver cup with the inscription, “To my Dear Husband on his birthday 18/X/61 very nice don't you think, Marina is on her vacation (sic) now, she is spending it with her aunt in the city of “KHARKOV” about 600 miles South East of here.... We both agreeded (sic) that she should go to a new enviroment (sic) on her vaction (sic)...”

In the body of the letter, Lee Oswald uses the Americanized version of the date, October 22, 1959, but the gold and silver cup is inscribed with the Cryllic date of 18/X/61. This makes me think of the controversy over the DeMohrenschildt, “Hunter For Fascists” photograph, with the date written in the Cryllic fashion. Also, in October, Lee and Marina had only been married for six months. What newly married couple agrees to take separate vacations? Why would they both agree that she should take her vacation 600 miles away? (My own thought is that with their astrological signs being squared, they really didn't get along. I wonder why they got married in the first place). Either that, or Marina was being briefed on getting to the U.S.

 

Steve Thomas