"Oswald" to Soviets: "...my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters."

[John Butler]

Over 300 photos belong to the Paines?  Wasn't all these photos found in Oswald's sea bags or duffel bags.  There were 2 bags I believe.  How did Paine photos get mixed up with Oswald photos?

I don't believe it.  Some maybe, but not 300.  I have a good memory for paintings and photos.  I must have lost that, because every time I go through this collection it seems to change.  I see something new.  I have been through these photos about 10 or 12 times for that reason.  Something new or the clarity of some pictures seem to change.  Poor memory I guess. 

There are photos of Michael Paine and I would assume Ruth was the photographer.  The army photos?  Paine or Oswald?  I think Oswald.

300 photos?  They belong to the Paines?  Then why were they included in this collection?  Why did the FBI include 300 Paine photos in this collection?  Why did Oswald have possession of those photos?  How could Marina identify Paine photos?  Or, photos taken by an Oswald when not in Minsk? 

This really does not trash my notions that the two Oswalds were in Minsk from time to time.  Lee first, not Harvey.  I base that on there were no scars, suicide or gunshot on Harvey's left elbow and wrist.  The autopsy doctor concerned with Harvey measured scars as small as 1/4 inch, but did not mention those scars.  The first Oswald into Russia didn't speak Russian very well and would have been found out if he did from his first entry in Oct., 1959 to January on arrival in Minsk.  I would guess that during this time that particular Oswald was heavily interrogated.  Harvey did speak fluently and would not have been able to hide that initially. 

I know there is evidence for Lee being in America at this time early on in the Russian adventure.  The evidence is not really that conclusive that it was actually Lee mentioned by witnesses.  It could have been a double.  It could be Lee depending on when Harvey replaced him in Minsk.  There are photos of Lee (or photos I believe to be Lee) in Minsk or some area of Russia early on.  There doesn't seem to be many once Marina shows up.     

Were just anything that didn't fit get assigned to the Paines?  300 photos is shocking and unbelievable.

Ruth and Michael Paine in the Army?  That kills the army analysis of Oswalds I was planning.  I guess Micahel Paine was also in Japan and the Philipinnes in the army.

Can J. Edgar and crew, CIA Michael and Ruth Paine, and Marina be trusted?

This photo on the left is classified as a Paine photo.  I would guess of Michael in the Army.  It is actually a photo of Marines in the Philippines.  It may be a photo of Gerry Hemming who was photographed by Oswald in other photos.  It will take time to go through and look at others.

How can you tell?  Army guys during this time are wearing the Ridgeway cap or hat.  The Ridgeway hat is very distinctive.  They blouse their boots and Marines don't.    That's how you can tell the Marine photos from the Army photos.  Army guys also wear their rank insignia and have patches on their left shoulder and if one has combat experience another patch on the right shoulder.

I'll stop here this is beginning to sound like someone defending a weak position. 

 

   

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Interesting observations, John.  This gets tricky.

According to the 3/30/64 memo from Hoover to DCI, Hoover wrote, "Enclosed for your information is one copy each of the 448 photographs which have been acquired during the course of our investigation in this matter."  Hoover makes no assertion about where the photos were when they were confiscated, though the included report indicates just over 300 of them belonged to the Paines.

Was the FBI lying again?  Always a real possibility, but this would require more checking of the "Oswald's possessions" documents and more.

[John Butler]

Thanks Jim,

I have to admit I blew it on the alleged 300 Paine photos.  I missed it entirely.  Well,  at that point I wasn't really looking.  I took a look at the photo descriptions and they seemed to not match very well and I knew it would be a long and tedious job to match photos with descriptions.  So, I thought I would do what I could with the photos.  And, skipped what I should have done in the first place.  One of the faults there is laziness.

At least one of the photos identified as a Paine photo wasn't.  I remembered the photo I thought was Gerry Hemming and remembered that Hemming in the Philippines would not be in the time frame of Michael Paine being in the Army.  It is a Marine photo regardless whether it is Hemming or not.  As are many others.   

The Keesler photo post and the rifle range post were to tie in with a study of the Army photos.  Obviously, that's not going to work out now.  Those Army photos, the biggest part, are hard to determine where they were at due to low quality.  One can look at the vegetation and say yeah that is northern, cold climate and that is warm climate.  Cold climate being Japan and Korea.  Warm climate would be Taiwan and the Philippines.

Oswald did say he served with the US Army in Japan and the Philippines.  The MAC-11 unit was originally from Korea and had moved to Atsugi, Japan.  For many years they retained part of their unit in Korea and I believe (though not certain) that all of the elements in Korea had moved to Atsugi by Oswald's time.  Some of those Army photos look like Korean landscape.

Where did Michael Paine serve in the Army?  Here's a bit of info on Michael.  He is in a forum thread when he died at 89.   

Personal life[edit]

"In 1957, he married Ruth Avery Hyde in Pennsylvania. They had two children:^[1] Lynn (b. 1959) and Christopher (b. 1961).^[2] In 1959, they relocated to 2525 West Fifth Street in Irving, Texas, a suburb of Dallas.^[2] when Paine began work at a Bell Helicopter facility in Fort Worth. One issue is whether the Minox camera found in the Paine garage belonged to Lee Oswald or to Michael Paine. Another issue is what activities Lee Oswald and Michael Paine had in common, given Michael Paine's statement to Frontline (Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?, PBS) that he and Lee Oswald shared unspecified interests.

In late September 1962, Paine and his wife Ruth separated, Ruth asked him to have his personal belongings moved out of the house by the time she got back home from traveling around the United States that summer. According to Michael, it was not he, but Ruth who pushed to legally end their marriage. As their divorce made its way through the legal system until it ended in 1970, the Paines continued to see films at the theater together, and their Madrigal singing as a couple continued. Michael kept his own apartment in Arington, Texas, while Ruth remained with Lynn and Christopher in the Irving home. In the end, the divorce was amicable, and Michael kept a very favorable view of Ruth.^[3]"

Would he have left his Army photos with Ruth?

(8) Barbara Lamonica, Coalition on Political Assassination's Conference (21st October, 1995)

"One wonders why someone intending to commit a crime would allow such items to be stored in another's garage, instead of destroying the incriminating evidence. Michael Paine's testimony is used to confirm that Lee had a rifle, and indeed it had been stored in their garage - in retrospect, of course, because Michael Paine said he never realized it was a rifle... It's hard to believe that a man like Michael Paine, who had been in combat artillery in Korea, and then in the Army Reserves for six years, could not recognize the feel of a rifle. Especially since it belonged to someone who he considered a person who advocated violence.

I think maybe Michael Paine is lying here. He either knew it was a rifle, and is choosing to hide that fact, or maybe it wasn't a rifle at all... in either case he distances himself from the situation by saying he just didn't realize what was going on. And this is characteristic of the Paines all along - they try to distance themselves from Oswald."

This may be why some of the photos look like Korea.  But, there is a difference in Korean photos from the Korean War and photos taken at a later time.  The photos in the 201 do not show any violence from the war, like dead people and destroyed villages and cities.  They are mostly of tent compounds. 

I don't think I am going to give up on this.  I'll simply have to do more grunt work which my lazy side tries to get out of that kind of work.

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

I have been doing some background checking.  Michael Paine entered the Army in 1951 and served two years.  He was assigned to the 40th Inf. Division combat artillery. In 1952 they were in Japan then Korea for 52 and 53. 

Nowhere in all those Army photos did I find one photo related to the Korean War or the fighting or destruction related to the Korean War.  No where in those photos did I find any related to a artillery unit.  Not a single artillery piece.  The 40th Division was in the thick of the fighting until the war ended in July, 1953. 

The Ridgeway cap, a very distinctive cap, was introduced into the army in 1953 about the middle of the year I think.  It is a flat crowned, rather stiff hat. 

The Army did not change its uniform appearance from 1953 through the late 1950s.  So, it is difficult to tell whose photos these are.  Paine's?  No war footage or artillery photos say these are not the photos of Michael Paine.  The photos of soldiers on a ship is more than likely photos of Marines on the Bexar not GIs traveling to Japan by ship. 

There are several things that say it is unlikely these are Paine photos.  But, there is no information that an Oswald was ever in Korea.  Oswald said he served with the US Army in Japan and the Philippines.  Not a word about Korea. The majority of these photos appear to have Korean landscapes. 

The Japanese photos could be Paines or Oswalds.  One would have to be able to read Japanese to determine if these photos were from Atsugi, Yokohoma, Tokyo, or other small towns around Atsugi and not towns around where the 40th Division was stationed while in Japan.

Another difficulty is determining whether the Asians shown is various photos are Korean or Japanese except by the appearance of languages on signs.  The written Korean language is very distinctive and is different in appearance from Chinese or Japanese.

I thought the Ridgeway Cap would be the separator in these photos.  But, that two is iffy.  The Ridgeway came into general use for the US Army in mid to late 1953.  This would be at the tail end of Michael Paine's Army career.

So, I'm just going to have to ignore this because I can't make the call.   

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

There’s a lot of evidence that both Oswalds were in the Marines at the same time.  Most people think of just the period starting in Sept. 1958 when Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was on the U.S. Skagit and then in Taiwan at the very same time American born Lee Oswald was being treated (ostensibly for VD) at Atsugi Station Hospital in Japan, but the evidence goes far beyond that.

For Russian-speaking Harvey, the idea, as with the schools he attended, was apparently just to give him a taste of American life so that he could answer any questions  that might come up about it when on assignment.  Matching his sporadic attendance at various schools, the Russian-speaking Oswald was in and out of the Marines while American-born Lee apparently served consistently.

We agree that there is no evidence either Oswald served in Korea, though Nagell did, and ostensibly with the U.S. Army (though perhaps more accurately the Agency).  Probably unrelated, but who knows for sure?

I’ll keep an eye out for other references, but my guess is that “Oswald” was just using the term “Army” as a generic expression for armed forces, assuming, perhaps, the Soviets wouldn’t distinguish between the various branches.  This is pure speculation, of course, but the evidence that both Oswalds were in the USMC at more or less the same time is substantial.  You’re probably already aware of this, but some more evidence is at the link below, though the mother lode is in the book Harvey and Lee.

Marine Corps and the Soviet Union
 

[John Butler]

Jim,

"We agree that there is no evidence either Oswald served in Korea, though Nagell did, and ostensibly with the U.S. Army (though perhaps more accurately the Agency).  Probably unrelated, but who knows for sure?"

True, I don't know of anything anywhere that says Oswald was in Korea.  The only reference I know of is to the 512 Military Intelligence Unit (I think I got that right) that had Oswald information.  The 512 MI was part of the 1st Calvary Div. stationed at the DMZ and was later changed to the 2nd Inf. Div. in about 1965. 

"I’ll keep an eye out for other references, but my guess is that “Oswald” was just using the term “Army” as a generic expression for armed forces, assuming, perhaps, the Soviets wouldn’t distinguish between the various branches." 

I can't see any Marine identifying with the US Army.  Most Marines held the Army in contempt as the weaker force.  But, you could be right on that and I wont argue that you are wrong.   

Most of the evidence points to these army photos belonging to Michael Paine.  And, even the photos of military folks on a ship could be US Army with boots unbloused at sea.  I can see some goofy Army Commander issuing such an nonsensical order in case the ship was sunk.  Instead of Marines it could have been GIs going to Korea in early January, 1952.  Except that the winter in Korea and Japan is bitterly cold in January, more so in Korea with nights in Korea dropping to way below zero and with the wind chill lowering the temperature to as much as -50 to -75 degrees.  Exposed flesh will freeze within 2 minutes.  The troops on board are not dressed for winter in those photos.

 The photos are still questionable.  The absence of photos related to the Korean War and being in an artillery unit is puzzling.  Perhaps, Michael Paine being a long term photographer simply developed more peaceful, unwarlike tendencies after the Korean War and simply destroyed or threw away any thing involving violence or destruction.  I think I am beginning to see a set of Army photos before Korea on ship and a set of photos after Korea in Japan at the Sendai region camp of the 40th Infantry.  It's is all about the uniform and caps.  I'll explain in a minute.

The 40th Division (Michael Paine's unit left for Korea from Japan in January, 1952 and left Korea for Japan after the Armistice on July 27, 1953.  Originally, they were stationed in Sendai, Japan which is about a 100 miles, maybe less and just a guess, north of Tokyo, Japan.  The area is somewhat mountainous and can be mistaken for Korea.  I think I made this mistake.  They returned there after the armistice. 

The troops on ship photos have the soldiers wearing what looks like the M151 patrol cap, which was standard at the time.  New regulations for it were issued in 1952.  High ranking military officers didn't like the wrinkled appearance of the hat and order that it be stiffened with supports and a cardboard insert.  This came about after the armistice and GIs found this difficult to do. 

The Ridgeway cap was the answer to the problem.  The Louisville Cap co. of Lousiville, Ky begin selling a version of the stiffened cap that became popular with the troops.  This occurred after the armistice and by the fall of 1953 most were wearing the Ridgeway cap.  These were generally bought at a PX for about 2.00 dollars.

This photo is of concern for various reasons:

These men are wearing the distinctive Ridgeway cap and this means that this photo is after the Armistice of July 1953 when the 40th Div. left for Japan.  But, how much after?  The appearance of these men could fit any time from 1953 to perhaps 1962.

What is questionable about this photo?  On the grumpy appearing 1st SGT there is a combat patch and rank insignia on his right shoulder and arm, but no unit patch on his left shoulder that can be seen.  I never saw in the military any higher ranking NCO not dressed correctly. 

The same is true for the other GIs.  They appear to be high lighted to the extent any patch, if there, is not seen.  You can see where a white US Army tag has been obscured on the left breast of the 1st SGT and you do not see any on the jackets of the other GIs.  The white US Army tag was a required tag order after the armistice and was part of the negotiations when the North Koreans demanded it as a means of identifying US soldiers.  In almost all of the Army photos the unit patch or white tag is not present.  The lack of unit patches and white Army tags?  Coincidence or Not?  Speculation:  Oswald photos mixed in with Paine photos?  Not much evidence for this.

There is still doubt on these photos.  But, there is enough evidence to say the Army photos of the 300 photos said to belong to the Paines are Paine photos.  This casts doubt on anything I have said about Rome or Japan and an Oswald.  It doesn't disprove, but simply calls in to question those statements credibility. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim,

I having one or more problems working on a timeline of Oswalds in the Marines.  Harvey enters the Marines in Oct.24, 1956 and is out on Sept. 11, 1959.  This is nearly 3 years on an enlistment of 3 years.

"After LEE Oswald was discharged (March, 1959) he stayed away from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, but was seen in several locations including Coral Gables, Key West, New Orleans, and Cuba. His tall, nice-looking mother terminated her employment at Cox's Dept. Store and moved away from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. She returned to New Orleans and from 1959 through 1961 worked in the ladies department at Goldrings and Holmes Department Stores and at Kriegers. Mrs. Logan Magruder, who knew the tall, nice-looking Marguerite Oswald for over 20 years, saw and talked with her at Kreigers (circa 1959-60). Mrs. Oris Duane saw and spoke with Marguerite at Goldrings (circa 1960). Marguerite Oswald remained in New Orleans, undoubtedly changed her name, and never returned to Ft. Worth. "

Do you have a date for when Lee Oswald (the original Lee Harvey Oswald) entered the Marine Corps?  The March discharge date implies he joined the Marines somewhere around March, 1956 and was out after 3 years in March, 1959. 

If this is so then that would make the Ransberger statement correct that Lee Oswald was a PFC in the fall of 1956.  The Oswald Ransberger mentions can't be Harvey because he does not have enough time in service to be promoted to PFC.  It has to be Lee.  And, to be a PFC Lee must have been in the service at least 6 months.  Its a mystery.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Edited August 25, 2019 by John Butler

[Guest Rich Pope]

On 8/17/2019 at 9:41 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

In another thread, Steve Thomas wrote this:

 

As I was reading through the pages of CE 985 that Steve pointed to, one thing jumped off the page to me.  In a short “autobiography” allegedly written in “Oswald’s” own hand as part of an application for employment at the Minsk radio plant, he wrote:

“...my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters.”  The rest of the paragraph pretty much matches the biography of Classic Oswald®.  Take a look at the page:  
 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page

I’m sure WC loyalists will just say “Oswald” was playing games with the Soviets, but the odd thing about this is that the statement is probably true for the Russian-speaking Oswald.  Anyone have any other thoughts, or thoughts on the questions Steve raised?

Well, we know Oswald wrote home while in Russia and we know the Russians were reading his mail so it would be very easy to catch Oswald in a lie.