Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Evan Burton]

The Pilots For 911 Truth site - escpecially the forum - seems logically organized, well attended and quite busy from a brief encounter. An impressive achievement for a 'nut-job'. But I'm not a member.

The guy involved was known at LCF for banning any dissenting view with extreme predjudice - so much so he did a wide IP ban and shut off all of Australia / NZ, a significant portion of Europe, all of Canada, and a big part of the US. After that flip-out, the site owners took his mod status off of him. He left in disgust and started his own forum.

If you take a close look, how many people posting are airline professionals and how many are simply members?

Have you had direct experience of that forum?

Yes indeed. I was banned after two posts - none of which contained anything offensive, etc. I simply asked questions. I was told it was "spin" (his favourite term) and banished. The same happened to a 747 captain I brought along to refute some of his claims.

Incidentally, one of the first people I corresponded with after 9-11 about the events of that day. who believed the official story was a crock from very easly days, was an ex-airline pilot.

Different for me; all the aviation professionals I know consider the 'truth movement' to be a laugh. BTW, the majority of those very same aviation professional are very anti-Bush and believe we should never have been in Iraq.

Incidentally, many pages earlier in this thread, when the story about the BBC's premature report of the collapse of WTC-7 first broke, you volunteered to see if you could find parallel cases in history. For instance, have there been other reports that towerblocks have collapsed, shortly before the event actually took place? Or is this yet another unique feature of the WTC-7 saga?

How are you getting along with that, Evan? Anything to report back?

I'm afraid I have been very lax and haven't done anything at all. Maybe in the next few weeks - keep bugging me about it so I don't forget to get off my butt and actually do something.

[Jack White]

Q: If 9-11 was a false-flag operation, why aren't more pilots talking about it?

A: They are!

Here's the homepage of Pilots for 911 Truth

Sid,

That site was started off by a nutjob from the Loose Change forum. He is now marketing a DVD which purports to show why the DFDR data from the Pentagon aircraft is wrong. Despite being shown why he is wrong by a couple of people who field of expertise is DFDR analysis (1 x Canadian, 1 x UK), he ignores this and continues with his beliefs.

That site is also renown for banning anyone who holds a dissenting view.

You might be better off looking at a site like the Professional Pilots Rumour Network, probably the most well-known website for professional pilots around the world.

For my part, none of the 30+ pilots I have worked with have any doubt about the aviation aspects of 9/11. I'm not saying you will not find a professional pilot who has problems with the "official" version, but they are in the extremely small minority - small enough to be statistically insignificant.

Interesting, Evan. It occurs to me you must be a hard task master.

The Pilots For 911 Truth site - escpecially the forum - seems logically organized, well attended and quite busy from a brief encounter. An impressive achievement for a 'nut-job'. But I'm not a member.

Have you had direct experience of that forum?

Incidentally, one of the first people I corresponded with after 9-11 about the events of that day. who believed the official story was a crock from very easly days, was an ex-airline pilot.

Of course, most pilots - like most people in general - have a natural inclination to believe Government is truthful, especially on matters such as intentional mass murder.

It's a belief that takes a lot to shift... yet it does seem to me that public certainty about the essential truthfulness of government and the mass media on 9-11 is melting like a snowman in springtime.

A little more vanishes each day.

Incidentally, many pages earlier in this thread, when the story about the BBC's premature report of the collapse of WTC-7 first broke, you volunteered to see if you could find parallel cases in history. For instance, have there been other reports that towerblocks have collapsed, shortly before the event actually took place? Or is this yet another unique feature of the WTC-7 saga?

How are you getting along with that, Evan? Anything to report back?

Most pilots are like most of the public...they do NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED DISPUTING

THE OFFICIAL GOVT STORY because...

...they do not want to endanger having a good job

...they do not want to endanger their retirement or pension

...they do not want to endanger their health or loved ones

...they do not want to be ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist

It is quite simple. This is the modus operandi for the past forty years.

Jack

[Len Colby]

Incidentally, one of the first people I corresponded with after 9-11 about the events of that day. who believed the official story was a crock from very easly days, was an ex-airline pilot.

That didn’t happen to be Ralph Omholt, did it? He was a member of SPINE of which you were (are) webmaster.

Most pilots are like most of the public...they do NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED DISPUTING

THE OFFICIAL GOVT STORY because...

...they do not want to endanger having a good job

...they do not want to endanger their retirement or pension

...they do not want to endanger their health or loved ones

...they do not want to be ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist

Not really sufficient to explain why only 22 or 23 out of 610,000 pilots in the US joined Pilots for Truth if there really were so many obvious discrepancies nor why only 3 or 4 of the millions of pilots from other countries joined or spoken up. They allow people to join anonymously. What about Cuban and Iranian pilots? What about retired pilots (who would have to worry about loosing their jobs)? Some members of the group identified themselves as pilots for particular airlines. There is no indication any of them have been fired or threatened with dismissal nor that any of the other members have been fired or threatened or attacked.

We can’t even be sure what their views are since only 3 or 4 of them have said where they stand.

Edited March 18, 2007 by Len Colby

[Sid Walker]

If you have a strong stomach, listen to the last few minutes of the life of Kevin Cosgrove, who was trapped in the WTC on September 11th 2001.

This man was 'collateral damage' in a deliberate mass murder. Of course, debate continues about who was responsible for the murder.

The official story - that he was killed by Arab terrorists - rests on the claim that the twin towers did not collapse because of controlled demolition. The official story rests on the belief that the twin towers collapsed because of fuel fies that triggered a catastrophic collapse.

is synchronized with footage of the twin towers, taken from a distance. Observe the smoke bellowing from the buildings. Much of it is black in colour. There is no indication of intense heat.

Cosgrove stays on the line until the building he was in collapsed.

He was on the 105th floor of a building we are told collapsed because the heat was so great the steel lost its strength!

His voice can still be heard right up to the moment the building collapsed.

Throughout, Cosgrove complains of smoke - not heat.

[Len Colby]

If you have a strong stomach, listen to the last few minutes of the life of Kevin Cosgrove, who was trapped in the WTC on September 11th 2001.

This man was 'collateral damage' in a deliberate mass murder. Of course, debate continues about who was responsible for the murder.

The official story - that he was killed by Arab terrorists - rests on the claim that the twin towers did not collapse because of controlled demolition. The official story rests on the belief that the twin towers collapsed because of fuel fies that triggered a catastrophic collapse.

is synchronized with footage of the twin towers, taken from a distance. Observe the smoke bellowing from the buildings. Much of it is black in colour. There is no indication of intense heat.

Cosgrove stays on the line until the building he was in collapsed.

He was on the 105th floor of a building we are told collapsed because the heat was so great the steel lost its strength!

His voice can still be heard right up to the moment the building collapsed.

Throughout, Cosgrove complains of smoke - not heat.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Wow that is really lame evidence even by “(bend the) ‘truth’ movement” standards! Cosgrove was in the northwest corner of 105th floor of the South Tower* ***. The impact zone of that building was between the 77th and 85th floors. The NIST Report said there only were fires up to the 83rd floor and none on the west side of the building. Though they documented small fires near the northwest corner of the 83rd floor the most severe fires were on the south and east sides of the building** opposite Cosgrove’s location. Even so he said "the smoke's really bad now...I can barely breathe now. I can't see"***. To make a long story short the smoke was intense in his location despite the fact the fires were 22 – 28 floors or 270 - 350 feet below the floor he was on mostly on the opposite side of the building.

Sid in all his years of 9-11 activism pretty obviously hasn’t even bothered to read the NIST report just like the vast majority of “inside jobbers” including is seems (based on their comments and writings) Fetzer and Griffin. Word to the wise, make sure you know what you’re trying to debunk BEFORE you try to debunk it!

Thanks for the laugh Sid, I needed that!

* http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-usmous0411,0,5954257.story

** http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf (pgs. 42-4, PDF pgs 92 -4)

*** http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-usmoustra...37905.htmlstory

Edited March 19, 2007 by Len Colby

[Michael Hogan]

If you have a strong stomach, listen to the last few minutes of the life of Kevin Cosgrove, who was trapped in the WTC on September 11th 2001.....

Cosgrove stays on the line until the building he was in collapsed.

He was on the 105th floor of a building we are told collapsed because the heat was so great the steel lost its strength!

His voice can still be heard right up to the moment the building collapsed.

Throughout, Cosgrove complains of smoke - not heat.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

......Sid in all his years of 9-11 activism pretty obviously hasn’t even bothered to read the NIST report just like the vast majority of “inside jobbers” including is seems (based on their comments and writings) Fetzer and Griffin. Word to the wise, make sure you know what you’re trying to debunk BEFORE you try to debunk it!

Thanks for the laugh Sid, I needed that!

Kevin Cosgrove's last words are horrific and saddening. To refer to Sid Walker's post with laughter and five smiley faces is entirely inappropriate in this context, in my opinion.

[Len Colby]

I was already familiar with the recording that was not what made me laugh. I was obviously making light of Sid’s blunderous lack of critical thinking and/or ignorance (of the subject) not Kevin Cosgrove’s plight. To suggest they are the same thing is disingenuous to say the least. If anybody besides Mike was offended I apologize.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Len Colby

[Jack White]

The UPS deliveryman just rang the doorbell. He delivered my copy of perhaps the

definitive book on 911, superbly edited by Dr. James Fetzer. Jim has done it again,

gathering short clear concise articles by leading experts into a single volume of

easy-to-read facts explaining what really happened on 9-11-01.

The authors (in order of chapters):

John C. Austin

David Ray Griffin

James H. Fetzer

Jack White

Judy Wood

Joseph P. Firmage

Morgan Reynolds

Rick Rajter

Elias Davidson

Peter Dale Scott

John McMurtry

Eight of these hold doctorates in various disciplines, including engineering.

This is an outstanding book which will enable you to comprehend what

DID NOT HAPPEN on 9-11, and will help you understand what may have

really brought down 3 steel-framed buildings on the same day for the

first time in history.

Jack

Please, no negative comments UNLESS you have read the book.

[Craig Lamson]

The UPS deliveryman just rang the doorbell. He delivered my copy of perhaps the

definitive book on 911, superbly edited by Dr. James Fetzer. Jim has done it again,

gathering short clear concise articles by leading experts into a single volume of

easy-to-read facts explaining what really happened on 9-11-01.

The authors (in order of chapters):

John C. Austin

David Ray Griffin

James H. Fetzer

Jack White

Judy Wood

Joseph P. Firmage

Morgan Reynolds

Rick Rajter

Elias Davidson

Peter Dale Scott

John McMurtry

Eight of these hold doctorates in various disciplines, including engineering.

This is an outstanding book which will enable you to comprehend what

DID NOT HAPPEN on 9-11, and will help you understand what may have

really brought down 3 steel-framed buildings on the same day for the

first time in history.

Jack

Please, no negative comments UNLESS you have read the book.

OMG! This is just TOO funny..

A new book by Fetzer..titled...

The Scamming of America!

ROFLMAO!

At least Fetzer is being honest about his book! LOL!

[Jack White]

The UPS deliveryman just rang the doorbell. He delivered my copy of perhaps the

definitive book on 911, superbly edited by Dr. James Fetzer. Jim has done it again,

gathering short clear concise articles by leading experts into a single volume of

easy-to-read facts explaining what really happened on 9-11-01.

The authors (in order of chapters):

John C. Austin

David Ray Griffin

James H. Fetzer

Jack White

Judy Wood

Joseph P. Firmage

Morgan Reynolds

Rick Rajter

Elias Davidson

Peter Dale Scott

John McMurtry

Eight of these hold doctorates in various disciplines, including engineering.

This is an outstanding book which will enable you to comprehend what

DID NOT HAPPEN on 9-11, and will help you understand what may have

really brought down 3 steel-framed buildings on the same day for the

first time in history.

Jack

Please, no negative comments UNLESS you have read the book.

OMG! This is just TOO funny..

A new book by Fetzer..titled...

The Scamming of America!

ROFLMAO!

At least Fetzer is being honest about his book! LOL!

Mr. Lamson is clairvoyant. He knows what the book says without having

seen or read it. Only phonies can "divine" what is in a book without seeing

it...and I know he was not on the list to get advance copies. Imagine it,

a psychic rolling on the floor laughing his ass off! TOO funny!

Jack

[Craig Lamson]

The UPS deliveryman just rang the doorbell. He delivered my copy of perhaps the

definitive book on 911, superbly edited by Dr. James Fetzer. Jim has done it again,

gathering short clear concise articles by leading experts into a single volume of

easy-to-read facts explaining what really happened on 9-11-01.

The authors (in order of chapters):

John C. Austin

David Ray Griffin

James H. Fetzer

Jack White

Judy Wood

Joseph P. Firmage

Morgan Reynolds

Rick Rajter

Elias Davidson

Peter Dale Scott

John McMurtry

Eight of these hold doctorates in various disciplines, including engineering.

This is an outstanding book which will enable you to comprehend what

DID NOT HAPPEN on 9-11, and will help you understand what may have

really brought down 3 steel-framed buildings on the same day for the

first time in history.

Jack

Please, no negative comments UNLESS you have read the book.

OMG! This is just TOO funny..

A new book by Fetzer..titled...

The Scamming of America!

ROFLMAO!

At least Fetzer is being honest about his book! LOL!

Mr. Lamson is clairvoyant. He knows what the book says without having

seen or read it. Only phonies can "divine" what is in a book without seeing

it...and I know he was not on the list to get advance copies. Imagine it,

a psychic rolling on the floor laughing his ass off! TOO funny!

Jack

No Jack I'm afraid the "phonies" believe stuff like this from the publishers blurb...

If you belong to the more skeptical and less gullible majority, you’ll find The 9/11 Conspiracy a fascinating store of hard facts and rigorous analysis—demonstrating conclusively that the official version just cannot possibly be true.

Why did the Twin Towers, specifically designed to withstand the impact of airliners, completely disintegrate, something that has never happened to any skyscraper building before or since?

Why were there explosions in their sub-basements before the airplanes hit these buildings?

Why did Building 7 come down late that afternoon, even though not hit by any aircraft and enduring no jet-fuel-based fires?

Why does the official story require an aerodynamically impossible flight trajectory for the Boeing 757 alleged to have hit the Pentagon?

Of course we have seen your failure to understand how photography works in your "studies" of the 9/11 photography. Since your misinformation is part of Fetzers latest...I'm thinking my first impression is right on.

Now how about admitting your gross error in the Armstrong shadow study....if you have the intellectual honesty.

[Jack White]

What "Armstrong Shadow Study"? This is irreleveant to Fetzer's new book.

This is a totally irrelevant non-sequitur.

Duh!

Jack

[Sid Walker]

I was already familiar with the recording that was not what made me laugh. I was obviously making light of Sid’s blunderous lack of critical thinking and/or ignorance (of the subject) not Kevin Cosgrove’s plight. To suggest they are the same thing is disingenuous to say the least. If anybody besides Mike was offended I apologize.

Hi Len. No offense taken. Perhaps you need a holiday?

You are apparently mirthful because you believe I exposed my stupidity ("blundering lack of critical thinking") and/or ignorance. Whether it is tasteful to be so jocular in the circumstances… well, it doesn’t bother me if you bring shame on your cause. Perhaps you have a Brazilian sense of humour?

Yes, I’m broadly familiar with the NIST report (without claiming expertise in engineering). I’m also aware that Mr Cosgrove's last moments were spent on the 105th floor of WTC-2 – significantly above the impact point on the building.

The NIST report says fires played a key role in bringing down the twin towers. Without them, the buildings would not have collapsed - or so NIST claims. Yet as has been said so many times before, fires in WTC-1 and 2 were mild compared with the intense fires observed over much longer periods in Madrid's Windsor building, or other raging infernos of the past. None of those other, much more intense fires caused multi-story steel framed buildings to collapse in entirety.

The sudden, catastrophic collapse of a frame of bearing steel, whether damaged to some extent as in the case of WTC-1 & 2, or not significantly damaged by impact as in the case of WTC-7), requires explanation. The explosive expulsion of dust also requires explanation.

NIST does not seem to account for these obvious observed phenomena.

In normal circumstances, should several office blocks collapsed in a city, one would expect the mass media to go into a frenzy of questioning, demanding to know every last detail about the cause of the collapses, who was responsible, whether other buildings might suffer a similar fate etc,

How telling that scrutiny of these disastrous collapses has fallen to investigators outside the mainstream only - with the mass media treating the official 9-11 reports with the uncritical reverence once reserved for the Holy Bible.

[Craig Lamson]

What "Armstrong Shadow Study"? This is irreleveant to Fetzer's new book.

This is a totally irrelevant non-sequitur.

Duh!

Jack

No its is totally relevant to Fetzers new book since you are part of it. It goes directly to your lack of ability to inspect photography and your lack of intellectual honesty.

"The scamming of America"

[Len Colby]

Yes, I’m broadly familiar with the NIST report (without claiming expertise in engineering). I’m also aware that Mr Cosgrove's last moments were spent on the 105th floor of WTC-2 – significantly above the impact point on the building.

If you were aware of Cosgrove’s location in relation to the fires in 2 WTC then your post was disingenuous (to put it mildly), were you cynically trying to exploit the tragic circumstances of his death to score points for your cause? Do you really expect that he would have felt the heat from the relatively small fires 22 floors indirectly below him or the intense fires 24 floors below him on the opposite side of the 208 foot by 208 building? Don’t forget there was 4 inches of high density concrete between each floor and the buildings core between Cosgrove and the fires strong enough to weaken thin steel trusses. Perhaps he should have felt the heat from the North Tower fires which were probably closer to him.

The NIST report says fires played a key role in bringing down the twin towers. Without them, the buildings would not have collapsed - or so NIST claims. Yet as has been said so many times before, fires in WTC-1 and 2 were mild compared with the intense fires observed over much longer periods in Madrid's Windsor building, or other raging infernos of the past. None of those other, much more intense fires caused multi-story steel framed buildings to collapse in entirety.

The sudden, catastrophic collapse of a frame of bearing steel, whether damaged to some extent as in the case of WTC-1 & 2, or not significantly damaged by impact as in the case of WTC-7), requires explanation.

The Windsor Tower as I assume you’re aware was primarily a reinforced concrete frame building not a steel framed one. The only steel part was the (unprotected) steel perimeter columns which started failing after about 1 hour (and the Windsor fire started small) bringing down the floor slabs outside the concrete in and above the fire zone along with them. The tower was so badly damaged Madrid authorities feared it would collapse and it had to be demolished. The same was true of Meridian Center whose fire is also compared to the those at the WTC, the FD and engineers feared a collapse and the building had to be demolished The Windsor and Meridian like all the other buildings cited by “inside jobbers”:

- Had not been subject to extensive pre-fire damage

- Didn’t have floor trusses anywhere near as long as the towers and

- Had intact fireproofing.

Speaking of fireproofing as cited elsewhere the inventor of the fireproofing used on the lower floors of the towers said they would collapse if fire broke out above where his product had been used. Unfortunately it turns out he was right.

The case of 7 is more complicated, due to being built over a electrical substation and being altered for Giuliani’s “bunker” it’s architecture was very non standard. One thing “inside jobbers” have to explain is the numerous reports from firefighters at the scene that the building seemed about to collapse for several hours and that it had ‘raging fires on virtually every floor’ had extensive damage to its south façade and was leaning or bulging.

The explosive expulsion of dust also requires explanation.

No real mystery here a 500,000 ton + 1360 foot, 110 story buildings with lots of drywall, plaster, asbestos fireproofing, fiberglass ceiling tiles, paint etc etc collapsing will presumably produce and eject a lot of dust. A computer scientist said there was not enough energy but his study had serious flaws and a nuclear chemist (and former member of your “truth” group SPINE) said their was.

NIST does not seem to account for these obvious observed phenomena.

NIST’s mandate was to discover why the buildings collapsed not study their effects or look into supposed anomalies dreamed up by people with no competence in the field who can’t get their facts straight. As for NIST’s conclusions so far no structural engineers in the world except for one who spent his entire career working on oil platforms and an architectural engineer who refuses to disclose what building he has designed has publicly disagree with the theory that impact damage + fires lead to the collapses.

In normal circumstances, should several office blocks collapsed in a city, one would expect the mass media to go into a frenzy of questioning, demanding to know every last detail about the cause of the collapses, who was responsible, whether other buildings might suffer a similar fate etc,

Can you cite any examples to back your assumption? The American Society of Engineers declared their intention to study the collapses with in days of 9/11.

How telling that scrutiny of these disastrous collapses has fallen to investigators outside the mainstream only - with the mass media treating the official 9-11 reports with the uncritical reverence once reserved for the Holy Bible.

Your reasoning is decidedly circular. You refuse to accept the findings of various studies by highly qualified engineers but prefer theories of unqualified theologians, folklorists, philosophers, dental filling engineers and nuclear physicists then complain that the lack of scrutiny is telling and suggest this is somehow evidece of something sinister! There was a guy in Berkley CA who thought Steven King and Mark David Chapman were the same person and that he was one of the four tramps he had proof which showed to anyone with a few minutes to loose. there is was a guy in NYC who hung out around Washington Sq. Park he "invented" a prepetual motion car and had proof it worked. Both claim that some vast conspiracy was surpressing their findings.

Since “inside jobbers” act on their belief the towers were demolished and can’t find any qualified experts who back their beliefs i.e. they put “faith” ahead of “science” and one of their main leaders (Griffin) is a theologian and he and others (S. Jones, Barrett etc) inject religion into the debate, the blind faith label can more accurately be applied to the ‘ “truth” movement’

Edited March 20, 2007 by Len Colby