Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Kevin M. West]

My apologies if I misinterpreted you, but your choice of the phrase "grilled till he got his story straight" leads to that conclusion. When someone is grilled like that, their testimony becomes less useful. You want to know what they remember, not how they can bend their memories to be consistant. When they do that, you don't know if they're changing the inaccurate part to match the accurate parts, or vice versa.

[Ron Ecker]

A good way to test Mineta’s story might be to look at the time it would take him to get from the Dept of Transportation to the PEOC where Cheney was located.

Here is Mineta’s description of his activity from 9:03 a.m., when Flight 175 hit the south tower, till he reached the PEOC, which he says was about 9:20 a.m.:

While Mr. Flaherty was briefing me, I watched as a large commercial jet flew into the second tower of the World Trade Center. At this point things began to happen quickly. I once more returned to the conference room and informed the minister of what had happened and ended the meeting. I received a telephone call from the CEO of United Airlines, Jack Goodman, telling me that one of United's flights was missing. I then called Don Carty, the CEO of American Airlines, and asked him to see if American Airlines could account for all of its aircraft. Mr. Flaherty reported to me that Jane Garvey had phoned to report that the CEO of Delta Airlines had called the FAA and said it could not yet account for all of its aircraft.

During this time, my office activated the Department of Transportation's crisis management center, which was located on the 8th floor at that time of the Department of Transportation headquarters, and provides for senior DOT personnel to conduct surge operations in a coordinated manner.

By this time, my office had contacted the White House. A brief moment later, the White House called my chief of staff and asked if I could come to the White House and operate from that location. I decided that, given the nature of the attack and the request, that I should be at the White House directly providing the president and the vice president with information.

When I got to the White House, it was being evacuated. I met briefly with Richard Clark, a National Security Council staff member, who had no new information. Then the Secret Service escorted me down to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, otherwise known as the PEOC. I established contact on two lines, one with my chief of staff at the Department of Transportation, and the second with Monty Belger, the acting deputy administrator of the FAA, and Jane Garvey, both of whom were in the FAA operations center.

This all covers a span of only 17 minutes, from 9:03 to 9:20, including the time it would take him to get from the Dept of Transportation to the White House (which he says was then being evacuated, something that did not commence until 9:45). Does anyone know the distance involved? Is this a realistic 17-minute timeline?

[Len Colby]

This all covers a span of only 17 minutes, from 9:03 to 9:20, including the time it would take him to get from the Dept of Transportation to the White House (which he says was then being evacuated, something that did not commence until 9:45). Does anyone know the distance involved? Is this a realistic 17-minute timeline?

Thanks for that Ron. Are you having 2nd doubts? It's hard to say whether under 20 or over 30 minutes are more realistic time frames since we have no idea how long the various conversations lasted. According to Yahoo the drive from 1200 NJ Av. (the address of the DoT listed on their website) to 1600 Pennsylvania Av takes 6 minutes which would leave 10 - 20 for everything else.

http://tinyurl.com/2pr587

[Ron Ecker]

Thanks for that Ron. Are you having 2nd doubts?

I'm looking for the truth. They don't call me a "truther" for nothing.

According to Yahoo the drive from 1200 NJ Av. (the address of the DoT listed on their website) to 1600 Pennsylvania Av takes 6 minutes which would leave 10 - 20 for everything else.

Then it certainly looks like Mineta had time to get to the PEOC by 9:20 as he claims.

Meanwhile we are supposed to believe that Cheney continued to sit in his office (like his neocon buddy Rumsfeld did at the Pentagon), removed from at least two crisis conferences going on, for another 10 minutes or so (I can believe this, as he and Rumsfeld could behave this way for obvious reasons), or else, if we believe the photographer, Cheney was taken from his office right after the second tower was hit, and simply disappeared for about half an hour if he didn't go straight to the PEOC where Mineta says he encountered him.

Thank God there was a commission appointed to get to the bottom of all these things.

[Craig Lamson]

Thanks for that Ron. Are you having 2nd doubts?

I'm looking for the truth. They don't call me a "truther" for nothing.

According to Yahoo the drive from 1200 NJ Av. (the address of the DoT listed on their website) to 1600 Pennsylvania Av takes 6 minutes which would leave 10 - 20 for everything else.

Then it certainly looks like Mineta had time to get to the PEOC by 9:20 as he claims.

Meanwhile we are supposed to believe that Cheney continued to sit in his office (like his neocon buddy Rumsfeld did at the Pentagon), removed from at least two crisis conferences going on, for another 10 minutes or so (I can believe this, as he and Rumsfeld could behave this way for obvious reasons), or else, if we believe the photographer, Cheney was taken from his office right after the second tower was hit, and simply disappeared for about half an hour if he didn't go straight to the PEOC where Mineta says he encountered him.

Thank God there was a commission appointed to get to the bottom of all these things.

Ron,

NOWHERE in print did the photographer say WHEN Cheney left his office. All we have in print is that the photographer ARRIVED at Cheney's office SHORTLY after 9 am (whatever "shortly" means).

Of course I am willing to be shown wrong on this, but thats what has been posted here in this thread.

[Ron Ecker]

You can have it either way you want it. You can accept the official story that Cheney sat on his butt in his office for half an hour after both towers had been hit, while other "leaders" (though conspicuously not Rumsfeld, Myers, or Bush) were busy conferring and at least trying to act like leaders, or you can speculate that Cheney left when the photographer (or someone telling the photographer's story) says he did and simply disappeared for half an hour.

Either way, Cheney would seem to have some explaining to do, except that what Dick Cheney does is nobody else's damn business.

[Craig Lamson]

You can have it either way you want it. You can accept the official story that Cheney sat on his butt in his office for half an hour after both towers had been hit, while other "leaders" (though conspicuously not Rumsfeld, Myers, or Bush) were busy conferring and at least trying to act like leaders, or you can speculate that Cheney left when the photographer (or someone telling the photographer's story) says he did and simply disappeared for half an hour.

Either way, Cheney would seem to have some explaining to do, except that what Dick Cheney does is nobody else's damn business.

Ron...show me WHERE the photog, or whoever is telling his story, gives us a TIME when Cheney left. The problem is you can't. You simply made it up. All that is on the record is the time of the photog's arrival ( well kinda...since all we have is "shortly after 9am"). Period.

YOU can't have it both ways.

Edited July 4, 2007 by Craig Lamson

[Ron Ecker]

Ron...show me WHERE the photog, or whoever is telling his story, gives us a TIME when Cheney left. The problem is you can't. You simply made it up. All that is on the record is the time of the photog's arrival ( well kinda...since all we have is "shortly after 9am"). Period.

Quoting (again) ABC News:

Just after 9 a.m. ET on Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney was in his West Wing office when two or three agents came in and told him "Sir, you have to come with us," according to David Bohrer, a White House photographer who was there.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021003222152/..._moments_2.html

That looks like plain English to me. Now you tell me how I “made it up.” Also, show me where it says when the photog arrived. It says the photog "was there" when the SS came in.

I won't respond to you further on this unless you have something intelligent to say.

Edited July 4, 2007 by Ron Ecker

[Craig Lamson]

Ron...show me WHERE the photog, or whoever is telling his story, gives us a TIME when Cheney left. The problem is you can't. You simply made it up. All that is on the record is the time of the photog's arrival ( well kinda...since all we have is "shortly after 9am"). Period.

Quoting (again) ABC News:

Just after 9 a.m. ET on Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney was in his West Wing office when two or three agents came in and told him "Sir, you have to come with us," according to David Bohrer, a White House photographer who was there.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021003222152/..._moments_2.html

That looks like plain English to me. Now you tell me how I “made it up.” Also, show me where it says when the photog arrived. It says the photog "was there" when the SS came in.

I won't respond to you further on this unless you have something intelligent to say.

Plain english indeed... The agents came in and said Cheney had to leave "shortly after 9" (my mistake about the arrival of the photog.) Now show me WHERE in this plain english is the quote about the time CHENEY LEFT his office. That Ron is what you have simply "made up".

Please respond when your intelligence level rises to the point that you can read.

Edited July 4, 2007 by Craig Lamson

[Ron Ecker]

Oh, I get it. The SS came in shortly after 9 and said, "Sir, you have to come with us." Then they sat and negotiated with Cheney for about half an hour before he decided to leave with them. Is that what happened? Those little excluded details make all the difference, don't they?

I just did what I said I wouldn't do. But I'll try again.

[Craig Lamson]

Oh, I get it. The SS came in shortly after 9 and said, "Sir, you have to come with us." Then they sat and negotiated with Cheney for about half an hour before he decided to leave with them. Is that what happened? Those little excluded details make all the difference, don't they?

I just did what I said I wouldn't do. But I'll try again.

Ah..you are starting to get it Ron. Yes those excluded details DO make all the difference. You need them to support your claim that the photog said the VP left "shortly after 9am.' You simply made up that claim out of thin air. You have nothing to support it.

We simply don't know when the VP left. Period. We dont know what happened between the SS and the VP.

Your claim is dust. Who you gonna "believe" now?

[Ron Ecker]

There is another witness to Cheney leaving his office soon after 9, at least in time to be found in the PEOC by Mineta at 9:20 (or, alternatively, to disappear for half an hour, contrary to Mineta, then showing up at the PEOC).

Richard Clarke says he arrived at the White House around 9:03 (when the second tower was hit) and went to Cheney's office, where Cheney was with Condi Rice. They conferred briefly and Rice said, "The Secret Service wants us to go to the bomb shelter." Clark agreed that they should, and "Cheney began to gather up his papers." As Clarke left, he counted eight SS agents ready to "move to the PEOC" (Against All Enemies, pp. 2-3)

Oh, but of course Cheney could have changed his mind and sat there! We can't prove that he actually left, right? He was playing everyone around him for fools. He's known as a real joker.

That's all.

[Craig Lamson]

There is another witness to Cheney leaving his office soon after 9, at least in time to be found in the PEOC by Mineta at 9:20 (or, alternatively, to disappear for half an hour, contrary to Mineta, then showing up at the PEOC).

Richard Clarke says he arrived at the White House around 9:03 (when the second tower was hit) and went to Cheney's office, where Cheney was with Condi Rice. They conferred briefly and Rice said, "The Secret Service wants us to go to the bomb shelter." Clark agreed that they should, and "Cheney began to gather up his papers." As Clarke left, he counted eight SS agents ready to "move to the PEOC" (Against All Enemies, pp. 2-3)

Oh, but of course Cheney could have changed his mind and sat there! We can't prove that he actually left, right? He was playing everyone around him for fools. He's known as a real joker.

That's all.

Again, where is the quote that states the TIME the VP left his office? Ah yes...THERE IS NONE!...again!

Thats all indeed. Do you always run away when cornered?

Edited July 4, 2007 by Craig Lamson

[Ron Ecker]

Do you always run away when cornered?

I haven't been cornered. I just don't like wasting my time. I also don't like to participate in "discussions" that are a discredit to the Education Forum. There is enough of that crap going on already, and you're good at throwing it.

Throw it somewhere else and see if it sticks, because I'm not interested.

[Craig Lamson]

Do you always run away when cornered?

I haven't been cornered. I just don't like wasting my time. I also don't like to participate in "discussions" that are a discredit to the Education Forum. There is enough of that crap going on already, and you're good at throwing it.

Throw it somewhere else and see if it sticks, because I'm not interested.

Of course you are cornered. You made up a claim that has been shown to be false...made up from whole cloth. You discredit the forum by showing your inablilty deal in truth. And worse you seem unwilling to admit your error. What a legacy for someone who proclaims he is in a the search for truth....

Either you are a man of honor or you are not. It appears you are not.