Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Len Colby]

In regard to the incorporation of Karam LLC in my post No. 140 above, we have the very curious situation of the company being reinstated under the date 9th January 2003 and filed on 11th January 2003. And what's strange abut that, you ask?

Mohamed Atta is now listed as the company secretary.

Changing from company "President" to company "Secretary" is death's way of saying you're demoted.

Interestingly, Mr Mohamed Atta's address is now listed as 4124 West Colonial Drive, Orlando, Florida (instead of the Marseilles, France, address listed earlier), That's just a short hop, skip and jump along the same street from 600 East Colonial Drive, Orlando, Florida, where the "second Mohamed" - Mohamed Arajki (a.k.a. Arajaki) - was listed as being resident:

Now there's a coincidence.

(See: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=4124+W+Colon...ap&ct=title

and

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=600+E+Coloni...ap&ct=title )

And Karam LLC, is seemingly part of Karam Moving and Storage Inc, nder the control of one David Karam, of 4524 Curry Ford Road, Orlando, Fl.

See: http://www.sunbiz.org/COR/2001/0110/20522282.tif

So who is David Karam?

I throughly enjoyied your plagarism of Hopsicker. I bet you are quite proud of yourself but you’ve proven nothing because neither you nor Hopsicker have any evidence that the Mohamed Atta who was, and still is, a partner in the company and the Mohamed Atta who is believed to have flown flight 11 into the North Tower of the WTC are/were the same person.

Him still being listed as an officer of the company in January 2003 even if his role had be reduced from president to secretary and still being listed as an officer of the company in it’s most recent annual report suggests otherwise. So does his still being listed at the same address as in the 2001 document in an online French phone directory. He even has two numbers listed at the address (or since it is a large apt building it could be him and a relative) and there is a 2nd (or 3rd) Mohamed Atta in Marseilles unless it is a 2nd address for the same person. I suggest you give the guy a call forthwith and ask him what it’s like to have been dead for the last 6 ½ years!

http://www.pagesjaunes.fr/trouverunnom/Rec...esBlanchesPJ.do (Nom: atta, Localité: marseille)

You see David, Mohamed Atta is a relatively common name. As I pointed out in 2006 (typos fixed):

Indeed if one goes to http://192.com/ you will see there are 144 Attas registered to vote in the UK, 13 of them have MOHAMMED or some variant as their first or middle name. If 13 British citizens have that name how many Mohammed Attas are there in the World obviously quite a few?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=63371

I just did the search again and there are now ‘only’ 189 Attas registered to vote. I didn’t count the Mohamed’s again but presumably there are still 12 – 13, by comparison there are only 9 David Guyatts. How many more Mohamed Attas are there then in the UK who are citizens or (if this is possible) are citizens but are registered to vote? How many Mohamed Attas who were in the UK on 9/11 decide to return to their homelands or change there names?

There even surprisingly four Mohammad (or some variant) Attas listed in a US online directory as well as two M. Attas and four Attas whose first initial is M but numbers are not listed. How many more Mohamed/Mohammad (etc) Atta’s are there presumably in the US who don’t have landlines or have them but under someone else’s name? If my name was Mohamed Atta and I lived in the US, I certainly wouldn’t want to have a phone in my name.

The silly premise that they were the same person raises a very obviously question, why would he have used and still the name Mohamed Atta for this cover story breaking partnership? He had used various aliases and name variants over the years, he didn’t even call himself Mohamed Atta till 1999 or 2000 when he started planning for the attacks. They even could have been a silent partner. If one accepts the premise that the 9/11 Atta died as his father finally acknowledged dead the question of why they would continue to list becomes even harder to reach any other answer that they are different people.

Another serious problem is that there is zero evidence (that I’ve ever seen) that the 9/11 Atta was ever in France, let alone Marseilles, let alone have an address there. He also spent very little time in or near Orlando till well after the company was founded.

Hopsicker tells us that the other people involved in the company are Moroccans, and of coursemost Arabs in France come that country’s former colonies so it is far more likely that the Atta from Mareseille was Moroccan than Egyptian and there is no evidence he ever lived in Florida. His address listed is the same of the company’s. It is as Hopsicker pointed out an IHOP (restaurant franchise) it even has the same phone number. So what are the odds that the company or any combination of the 3 company partners also owns the IHOP? An online restaraunt index lists Karam Llc at the same address and number and has Jamal Erroudani one of the company partners as “Your Host(s)” And as the folks at ScrewLooseChange pointed out the Hoover’s database also shows the company as being the owner of the franchise

So there is no evidence it’s the same Mohamed Atta and several reasons to doubt it. Hopsicker’s only “evidence” in support of this is positively risible. He gives this account of a phone call he made to one of the other company partners:

“Was it perhaps just a case of two different men with similar names?” we asked helpfully.

Ennoudani’s forceful response: “I don’t have anything to say about that.”

And then he hung up.

If I were Erroudani (as his name is properly spelled) and had some nut asking me if my business partner were that Mohamed Atta I probably would have acted in a similar way. It not as if a denial would be likely to change his mind. Another problem is that since Hopsicker has been known to doctor newspaper quotes little faith can be put in his version of a private conversation.

Perhaps, you or Hopsicker can explain how being patrner in a pancake joint would fit into the drug smuggling/ terrorism conspiacy.

And yeah apparently one of Arakji’s addresses in 2001 was either a hotel 2.9 miles down the road from the IHOP listed as the company HQ in 2003 or less likely an even more distant office building. Not exactly a smoking gun. Colonial Drive is one of the major commercial strips in Orlando. It would be life saying it’s a ‘coincidence’ that someone stayed at a hotel on 94th and Broadway in NYC (like the current Governor of NY and his mistress) and 2 years later some one else who you suspect was associated with him was a partner of a company located at 36th and Broadway.

When I was younger people called me Lenny, I worked for awhile at a fancy bike shop whose owner’s name was Lenny. 10 years later one of my roommates worked at the same store. I moved out of that place to live on the same block as the store owner. My friend called me at home one day and asked me to buzz the guys apt because both his home and cell phones were broken. It must have been a massive conspiracy!

EDIT photolink fixed

Edited March 19, 2008 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Len Colby wrote Post No. 111:

Funny that you should mention the photo of the “2nd Mohammed/5th pilot” being pawed by the transvestites. That sounds a lot more like the “Mohamed” Keller described [i.e., Arajki] than the “Atta” described by people we know knew him Hamburg and Venice.

Len Colby Post No. 138

... the photo is similar to one she described is evidence but not proof that his story is true.

***

My Post No. 131:

The below is is what Hopsicker wrote according to Amanda Keller's recollection of the trip to Key West -- and upon which you are drawing on in the above comments:

quote:

“Peter, Mohamed and Stephan were all standing next to the drag queen, who stuffed his hand down all their pants in the pictures, and Peter and Stephan both laughed it off, but Mohamed got really angry,” said Amanda.

unquote

(my bold, italics and underlining)

Singular "Drag queen" - singular "his hand" - plural "their pants" - plural "in the pictures". Plural "Peter, Mohamed and Stephen were all"... standing next to the drag queen..."

Having moved from your statement of fact, through the usual dissent and unpleasantess, then on to the present weakening of your position to the that the picture is "evidence but not proof of his [the second Mohamed's]story" --- perhaps you'll be honest enough to now admit that his story is bollocks - because in the picture he sent Daniel, there are three drag queens surrounding the second Mohamed -- standing alone - and not one of them have their hands stuffed down his pants.

This is clearly and indisputably a different picture of a different event -- and leads to the inescapable conclusion that it was mocked up to sow confusion in the old and well established smoke and mirrors fashion.

And you, Mr. Colby, have been a willing participant in this deceit.

Trying to rationally discuss anything with you seems to be a lost casuse. As I’ve repeatedly pointed out Keller is a xxxx whose version of events keeps changing: Atta was some guy who slept on her and her boyfiiend’s sofa, no it wasn’t Atta but some other guy named Mohamed who slept on their sofa, no, no, no it was Atta and he wasn’t just some guy who slept on her couch but he was her lover, no he was her lover but he wasn’t Atta, they met at the airport bar no, they met at the pizza place were she worked etc.

I already said there is no reason to assume the incident happened just like she said it did. We have a photo of either Mohamed Arakji or Peter being groped by TV’s in Key West. Arakji says the photos was taken in Key West, Hopsicker could have tried to verify that but didn’t.

[Mark Stapleton]

Yep, I definitely intend to get up to Huntsville, and probable Houston as well. I visited KSC in 2003 and yes - I climbed in the exhibits whenever it was allowed! I'm just a big kid with this stuff.

Don't forget the grassy knoll--if you have time. It's an eerie place.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Wonderful...

As strange as it will seem to you, I am inclined to agree with you about the Mohamed Atta of Karam. I could go on to deploy your argument that this " is not proof but evidence" that what Hopsicker says is true. But I wont stoop that low.

That there is a French address for this guy is, however, interesting, because no matter how many Mohamed Atta's there are registered to vote in the US matters not a whit when it comes to a foreign national...

As you can see the whole picture here is not only complex but confusing -- perhaps designedly so. Very likely it is designed that way, in my opinion.

My best guess is that the Karam Atta is a shadow. But I also think you're Arakji is a shadow. Perhaps they are the same guy - after all, Arakji is a fairly common Lebanese name and Karam is a fairly common Lebanese name -- maybe Hopsicker is on to something with the Lebanese connection eh?

Add to that the fact that the Karam Atta was located a short haul down the same street from your guy and neither of their registered adresses appear to be a residence but rather drop box addresses...

All of this is why I want your guy to provide a verifiable picture of himself and verifiable details. But I feel sure he won't agree to do that. And I dare say he will decline to answer the questions I asked that you ask him about his knowing Atta, about his being interviewed by the FBI etc etc. He's too weary and can't remember, I guess.

Btw, while your Mr Arakji can't remember how many pictures he sent Hopsicker, Daniel says he sent a total of two pictures of "himself" - both of which Hopsicker published in his article. That is why they are both of the same person. Who knows, they might actually be "his" friend Peter or Stephan but he claimed them to be of himself - a fact that he now appears to retract if what he tells you is true. But we have no way of knowing what he tells you is true, do we, anymore than you do.

Smoke and mirrors is what it is.

Meanwhile, if you stumble across a passport picture and ID, or another verifiable ID picture of Atta's friends "Peter and Stephan" that you can post here that clearly matches the guy standing with the trannies, then you have a right to attack Hopsicker on this issue.

But until that time arrives I think you'd be wise to either put up or shut up. You're wasting my time and the time of others here with your unfounded and undisciplined conspiracy theories and your artless spinning and misrepresentation of facts.

Gotta run, it's Easter don't ya know! Vacation beckons.

Toddle pip.

[Len Colby]

Mohamd Arakji told me the following:

I have few pictures from that time ( between February and april 2001 ) when I was at FFTC {Florida Flight Training Center], but the quality is very poor.

Check this link below and you will see a picture featuring people at the flight school in Venice.

Pay attention to the second guy from the right in front of the airplane ( with a white T-shirt ), and to the first girl from the right next to the aircraft ( with the black shirt ).

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity....training_center

He was in charge of repairing and maintaining the aircrafts, I think he was Swedish.

She is German, her name is Dorothy and was a flight instructor.

You can see these 2 persons on a picture of mine as we were having a bbq near the Venice beach. On my picture, I am standing on the left and they are both on the right.

On the other picture, I was having my airplane refuelled somewhere in florida. Note the blue and yellow colors of FFTC aircrafts.

[Len Colby]

The forum software wouldn't let me include all the images in a single post

The images are too low resolution to say for sure but they do indeed appear to be the same people. The guy with the blue shirt and shade leaning up against the plane is Jarah.

[Len Colby]

Bombast and rhetoric in waves eh? Getting sensitive is it?

What I want, Mr Colby, since you are in contact with this guy (apparently) - but decline to put me in contact with him - is his passport photo or FL driving license photo ID, or another photo ID which additionally lists his weight, height, hair colour, eye colour, d.o.b. Verifiable ID information. Verifiable identity with a verifiable picture.

From that position a picture of the man will be able to be built up. Without it he is a ghost. Very possibly a very convenient ghost, too.

As I’ve already pointed out 2 – 3 times he was only in the US 2 – 3 months so he is unlikely to have a Florida drivers license. Thus far you have:

• his name,

• date and place of birth,

• an unofficial photo from which you can determine his:

• hair color

• eye color and

• skin color

• US and UK pilot’s license numbers,

• The date he received his commercial license (April 20,2001)

• address in France,

• address in Orlando

• address in Venice

• approximate dates of stay in Florida,

• the name of the flight school he attended and even

• his dad’s name and approximate year and probable country of birth.

You know that he had a Florida checking account as of February 21, 2001 and used checks from it to pay for the rent and security deposit on the LaConca’s house, according to Keller he also used checks from the account to pay her bail and for rent on the apt. at the Sandpiper.

Do you really expect anyone to believe that that isn’t enough information to do one of those background checks? That’s a lot more info than most people start out with. Can you provide a link to a service that demands all the info you are asking for or are you raising a red herring pushing for info you know I don’t want to ask the guy for at this point?

Of course, you could always PM me his email and phone number and I'll deal with him directly. But you won't do that, will you. No sir.

I won’t do so for reasons I’ve spelled out various times already, funny how you always leave out my previous replies when you ask me the same question.

What I also want to know is why he sent pictures to Hopsicker claiming them to be of himself, but then told you that there were of his friend "Peter"?

Are you being intentionally obtuse hoping to get me to quit this thread in frustration or are you suffering from a massive case of cognative dissonance? We’ve already been over this, he told Hopsicker that the “picture” was of his “friend”, why the “journalist” failed to understand plain English I can’t explain.

And why pictures of his friend "Peter" in the Keys being "pawed" by trannies (but significantly no hands stuffed down his pants in the pictures sent to Hopsicker -- see your post 129 above) would prove or even begin to support his story that he was present in the same place on the same occasion as per Keller? I think I know the answer to this question but his full answer would be of interest.

Hopsicker should be able to verify whether or not the person in the photo was Peter Verhaaren. He said he was in contact with Marcus (Markus according to the FAA) Huber a Naples (FL) flight instructor who claims he knew him and his brother Stephan. He also seems to have looked into the brothers lives. He also probably could have verifiedis the TV’s were from Key West or not by making the 4 hour or so drive there from Venice and flashing the photo around (he had previously traveled about 4x the distance to interview Keller). If he had a photo in his possession of Peter, who Amanda says was there, being groped by Key West TV’s, in the same town and similar scenario to that described by Amanda that would be evidence, though not proof he was there on the night described. At the minimum it would show he was in contact with a friend of Keller’s Mohamed.

Can you prove your whereabouts on the night of February 22, 2001?

When emailing him ask him if he knew Atta and how well? Did they meet in Venice if so when, where and how often?

Quite unlikely Atta left Venice late December 2000 or early January 2001. Arakji says he only got there in February 2001. They went to different flight schools (albeit at the same airport).

Did they meet in Orlando, if so when, where and how often?

Also unlikely there is no indication either spent much time there, Arakji address there was a hotel and he studied in Venice. Atta is not known to have gone there till August 2001, months after Arakji finished his license.

Did the FBI interview him in regard to 911, when, where and how often?

He told me the following:

“For your information, the FBI and other foreign services questioned me several times, they know I was there and they know Amanda is a xxxx.”

Does he have any criminal convictions/associations?

You have convinced yourself he is a conspirator despite having no evidence in support of that belief. I won’t treat him like a suspect. I doubt he’d tell me if he did. It’s not even any of my business. If you are so well connected as you pretend to be to should be able to check yourself, don’t have any friend with access to French police records?

Do you “have any criminal convictions/associations?” If yes how does this affect your credibility, if you deny it why should we believe you? Can you prove it?

[Guest David Guyatt]

Mohamd Arakji told me the following:

I have few pictures from that time ( between February and april 2001 ) when I was at FFTC {Florida Flight Training Center], but the quality is very poor.

Check this link below and you will see a picture featuring people at the flight school in Venice.

Pay attention to the second guy from the right in front of the airplane ( with a white T-shirt ), and to the first girl from the right next to the aircraft ( with the black shirt ).

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity....training_center

He was in charge of repairing and maintaining the aircrafts, I think he was Swedish.

She is German, her name is Dorothy and was a flight instructor.

You can see these 2 persons on a picture of mine as we were having a bbq near the Venice beach. On my picture, I am standing on the left and they are both on the right.

On the other picture, I was having my airplane refuelled somewhere in florida. Note the blue and yellow colors of FFTC aircrafts.

You're kidding me, right?

A picture of some unknown guy feeding fuel into a unknown plane at an unknown location -- said to be in Florida, but nothing to support that. t could be South Africa for all I know.

No tail numbers on the planes. No identifiable logo (other than a cut off Chevron) anywhere. No identifiable geographic features. No recognizable pictures of anyone who is anyone. Even the building in the background of one picture is unrecognizable.

Nor do I see any hand stuffed down any pants. Do you?

Do you get the feeling that he is tugging on some unmentionable part of your anatomy and giggling at your naivety? Maybe I'm being too cynical and that he's a really nice guy and that it's him who is simple. Who knows which it might be?

Tell him to send you an unpublished picture of his bestest buddy Wolfgang - his closest friend in the world, 'kay. A high resolution identifiable one, as these low reso's pictures are pretty worthless, aren't they. That at least will put him in the terrorist hanging out league, right, and we go on from there.

My bet is that he won't... or can't.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Bombast and rhetoric in waves eh? Getting sensitive is it?

What I want, Mr Colby, since you are in contact with this guy (apparently) - but decline to put me in contact with him - is his passport photo or FL driving license photo ID, or another photo ID which additionally lists his weight, height, hair colour, eye colour, d.o.b. Verifiable ID information. Verifiable identity with a verifiable picture.

From that position a picture of the man will be able to be built up. Without it he is a ghost. Very possibly a very convenient ghost, too.

As I’ve already pointed out 2 – 3 times he was only in the US 2 – 3 months so he is unlikely to have a Florida drivers license. Thus far you have:

• his name,

• date and place of birth,

• an unofficial photo from which you can determine his:

• hair color

• eye color and

• skin color

• US and UK pilot’s license numbers,

• The date he received his commercial license (April 20,2001)

• address in France,

• address in Orlando

• address in Venice

• approximate dates of stay in Florida,

• the name of the flight school he attended and even

• his dad’s name and approximate year and probable country of birth.

You know that he had a Florida checking account as of February 21, 2001 and used checks from it to pay for the rent and security deposit on the LaConca’s house, according to Keller he also used checks from the account to pay her bail and for rent on the apt. at the Sandpiper.

Do you really expect anyone to believe that that isn’t enough information to do one of those background checks? That’s a lot more info than most people start out with. Can you provide a link to a service that demands all the info you are asking for or are you raising a red herring pushing for info you know I don’t want to ask the guy for at this point?

Yes, of course I really believe that. I am not going to spend good money that is in short supply chasing phantoms. I want verifiable information. Why do you -- or why should he have a problem with that? He's got a passport to hand, right. He flies all over the world, you said. China. Just ask him to scan it (high resolution for a change) and post it or PM it. I'll go on from there.

Additional to that is the observation that since he came forward to make an unsubstantiated allegation in the press, then he had better be prepared to prove who he is. It is not unusual to ask and expect people to verify their identification. Photo's of passports are a standard way of doing that. It happens all the time.

You can spend all your remaining life speculating with questions like it is "quite unlikely" this, and "quite unlikely" that, for all I care. Set up a speculating forum and compose all the conspiracy theories you want. You won't mind if I don't join you, though. I doubt many others here will turn up either. So be prepared to have fun on your own. But let's try to stick to facts here, okay. Verifiable facts.

In answer to your typical intuitive confection, allow me to say that I have not convinced myself he (the second Mohamed) is a conspirator. He might be an innocent, naive dope. Never-the-less, I am mindful that his name appeared on an FBI terrorist list. I am mindful that he had a listed address in a pancake house in Orlando located many hours drive from Venice where he flew and wonder why that was? (and I know it's many hours because I've driven from one to the other and back). And amazingly and coincidentally hs address in Orlando was in the same street as that of a certain Mohamed Atta -- who may or may not be the Mohamed Atta, or the ghost of the Mohamed Atta. Possibly even the spook of Mohamed Atta. We don't know. But it is an amazing coincidence all the same. I am also mindful that your Mohamed was the best friend of Wolfgang Bohringer (not just a passing acquaintance mind you, but bosom buddies), a "person of interest" to the Joint Task Force on Terrorism. Plus a few other mindfuls besides those just enumerated. Like snorting coke. Like dealing coke. Like having a never ending supply of unexplained cash. Criminal things.

Nice try on Hosicker driving down to the Keys just to help out your flagging and failing conspiracy theory -- he spent a year there but is back in his own home town these days. It's his parents who live in Venice. Maybe they should drive down to the Keys for you. Whaddyathink?

Cognitive dissonance eh. Remind me to come back on that bit about the two pictures he sent Hopsicker of "himself" okay. Soon, When the time is right.

Whoops, sorry -- that would be him sending two pictures of his friend Peter to prove that he (the second Mohamed) was present, right. That's clear. Is it okay if I send you a picture of my dog to prove I was present in Key West on (miraculously) the same evening, in the same club, being groped by the same tranny at exactly the same moment in time. I hope you'll accept this offered photo without complaint, as it's proof of what I say, don't you know. I like to call it "suspension of disbelief" and note that they use the same principle in them thar Disney movies to make kiddies believe cartoon character drawings are real, living people. Right up your street, I think.

Btw, I see you've moved on from the hazy "pawed" to the new hazier "groped" description, instead of the very specific "hand stuffed down their pants". Always try to cloud and obscure the actualite to cause confusion, eh...

[Guest David Guyatt]

This is Mohamed Atta:

This is Mohamed Arajki (standing on the far left). Allegedly anyway:

Any fool can see they're virtually identical and impossible to tell apart -- hence Amanda Keller's confusion in having bad sex with one, then thinking it was the other.

An easy mistake to make - bearing in mind their marked facial similarities.

[Evan Burton]

David,

I asked a simple question and thought that it would get a reply - a simple YES or NO would have been fine.

And can I point out that Jack has still not replied. He has been here, he has received

my PM, but for whatever reason choses not to reply.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Evan Burton

[Len Colby]

You're kidding me, right?

A picture of some unknown guy feeding fuel into a unknown plane at an unknown location -- said to be in Florida, but nothing to support that. t could be South Africa for all I know.

http://www.fftc.info/nnew/programs.asp

Except for the color of the propeller cone the plane is indistinguishable from the one in the photo known to have been taken at Florida Flight Training Center with Ziad Jarrah. It also very closely matches the photo below from the schools website. All three are Cessna 152’s described as a “training aircraft” by the manufacturer and is “primarily used for flight training” according to one site though other say it is used for that and a few other purposes. The color scheme is very unique. A Google image search for “Cessna 152” yields 16,300 hits. I looked at the 1st 10 pages of results and then the last page linked at the bottom (i.e. pages 19, 28, 37 and 46) when the results ran out because Google determined that the remaining hits were “very similar to the 918 already displayed” it seems that well over 90% of the planes have factory standard paint schemes and I didn’t see a single one matching the planes above. But if you want to knock yourself out see if you find a photo of a 152 from someplace else’s that uses those colors. Hopefully it will be in an area with palm trees serviced by Chevron aviation. Thus we can say with reasonably certainty the person in that photo, who appears to be an Arab, was a student at FFTC.

“No recognizable pictures of anyone who is anyone”

Though not as conclusive it appears the Arab looking person in the BBQ photo, who could well be as claimed the same person in the refueling photo, knew two people who worked at FFTC around the time Arakji said he studied there.

[Len Colby]

This is Mohamed Atta:

This is Mohamed Arajki (standing on the far left). Allegedly anyway:

Any fool can see they're virtually identical and impossible to tell apart -- hence Amanda Keller's confusion in having bad sex with one, then thinking it was the other.

An easy mistake to make - bearing in mind their marked facial similarities.

You love strawmen don’t David? No one is saying she mistook one man for the other but rather that she lied. She admitted she lied, Arakji said she lied. I’ve only seen reports from 6 named people who said they saw Keller with Mohamed. Of those 4 gave descriptions that matched Arakji but not Atta and two of those looked at Atta's photo but didn’t think it was Keller’s Mohamed.

Susan and Tammy Payne, Keller’s mother and sister said he was “tall [and] lanky (i.e. thin)” . Vonnie and Tony LaConca, the couple who rented Keller and Mohamed a house for a week, said that Mohamed “was about 25, 5 feet 10 inches, 160 pounds, had "dark, perfect" skin, and was clean cut”. According a study cited by the CDC by the LaConca’s estimate he was nearly and inch taller than the mean height for adult men in the US (5’ 9.2” - pg 10) and nearly 30 lbs under the mean weight (86.1 kilos/189.8 lbs – pg 9) his resulting body mass index of 23.0 would have been 18% below the mean of 27.8 (page 12) to make a long story short they said he was tall and lanky. But Atta was 5 foot 7 or 8 and was stocky by most accounts, was light skinned and his skin was pock marked according to people who knew him.

Additionally Ms. LaConca said "the first photo they showed us was the pilot who crashed into the first building,[i.e. Atta], It was not Mohamed or his friend. But the last picture they showed us was very close, but I could not say 100 percent that it was him."

Neither in the press nor in Hopsicker’s works did the Payne’s, Keller’s mother and sister, say one way or the other if man who stayed with her was Atta. That is quite telling. Hopsicker relates in his book how was able to track them down and how he made the several hundred mile drive from Venice to their house near Jacksonville. It would strain credulity to believe he didn’t ask them if “Mohamed” was Mohamed Atta and obviously if they said he was he would have touted it. So they either told him they had no idea or that he wasn’t Atta. Since he covered up the fact the LaConca’s thought he wasn’t someone else and lied about what the postman and Mrs. Grapentine said I wouldn’t put anything past him.

I’ve already gone over this so I’ll be brief (see earlier posts for details and references). Only two named witnesses said they saw Keller with Mohamed but both have credibility problems. I don’t think they lied as much as their memories played tricks on them.

1) Charles Grapentine - the building manager said Atta lived in Keller’s apt. (#26) for a few weeks in April but earlier he’d said that he’d lived in the same apt. with 5 other Middle Eastern students from Huffman till January and even went into detail about how much they’d paid. At no point did he or anyone else suggest Atta had lived in the same apt. months apart under very different circumstances so it seems that his recollection changed.

2) Stephanie Frederickson – was Keller’s next-door neighbor. She recalled Keller introducing him as “Mohamed Atta” but Keller said she knew his Mohamed Arajaki and said that’s how his named was spelled on his checks. Frederickson also said that Keller told her they’d bet at the airport bar when it was officially closed for renovations but still operation. Keller however told Hopsicker and the LaConca’s they’d met at the pizza place she worked so either a) Keller lied to her neighbor, Keller lied to Hopsicker and the LaConca’s, c) the neighbor misremembered what Keller told her or d) Fredrickson lied. No matter how you slice it one of the two women looses credibility.

The two Mohamed’s don’t look that different that two people whose memories seem to be less than rock solid could have mistaken them. Either Grapentine and Fredrickson were mistaken, and we already they know they were in part, or the LaConca’s and Payne’s were.

Hopsicker also cited an anonymous “Huffman insider” who said that Atta was frequently see at the school with the pink-haired Keller. That no one else recalled seeing him with such conspicuous company suggests it never happened.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

I could go on to deploy your argument that this " is not proof but evidence" that what Hopsicker says is true. But I wont stoop that low.

You couldn’t really do so honestly, there is no evidence the two Mohamed Attas were the same person.

“That there is a French address for this guy is, however, interesting, because no matter how many Mohamed Atta's there are registered to vote in the US matters not a whit when it comes to a foreign national...”

???? The point is there are lots of Mohamed Atta’s worldwide, several in the US, several in France, several in Germany etc and presumably many in Arab countries. The terrorist Atta is never known to have been in France.

“As you can see the whole picture here is not only complex but confusing -- perhaps designedly so. Very likely it is designed that way, in my opinion.”

It’s only complex because you and Hopsicker choose to see it that way. A part owner of an Orlando IHOP happened to be named Mohamed Atta, just like presumably hundreds and probably even thousand of other men.

“My best guess is that the Karam Atta is a shadow.”

Why? Other than Hopsicker’s paranoid rambling there is no reason to suspect he or his business partners were involved in anything more serious than selling pancakes to tourists or if Hopsicker’s undocumented claims are to be believed (a dubious proposition) “exporting luxury vehicles to the Middle East.”

Funny that in your other post you were going on about avoiding suppositions.

“But I also think you're Arakji is a shadow. Perhaps they are the same guy - after all, Arakji is a fairly common Lebanese name and Karam is a fairly common Lebanese name -- maybe Hopsicker is on to something with the Lebanese connection eh?”

The “Karam Atta” came from Marseille about 350 miles south of Arakji’s town and is probably Moroccan like his business partners. There is nothing to suggest he is tied to anyone named Karam.

“Add to that the fact that the Karam Atta was located a short haul down the same street from your guy and neither of their registered adresses appear to be a residence but rather drop box addresses...”

2 years and 3 miles apart, yeah they’re probably the same guy. How many people would you guesstimate own businesses with in a three mile radius of hotels you’ve stayed at?

There’s nothing suspicious about a foreign student giving a hotel as his address nor is there anything suspicious about a foreign investor listing the company location as his address in company papers

“Btw, while your Mr Arakji can't remember how many pictures he sent Hopsicker, Daniel says he sent a total of two pictures of "himself" - both of which Hopsicker published in his article.”

Pure BS, you produce more of that than a Black Angus or a Hereford. Hopsicker said he sent “several photos” i.e. MORE than two or three, thus he left some out. Hopsicker said himself, we have no indication of what Arakji said other than the TV photo was of his friend. I e-mailed Hopsicker Wednesday and asked him if he could send me the text of the e-mail and the unpublished photos Arakji sent him but thus far he’s declined to reply. Perhaps he’d be more likely to reply to you, why don’t you ask him?

“That is why they are both of the same person. Who knows, they might actually be "his" friend Peter or Stephan but he claimed them to be of himself - a fact that he now appears to retract ”

More BS, we’ve already been over this. He clearly told Hopsicker the transvestites photo was of his “friend” we have no way of knowing what he said about the other photo. Why Hopsicker, a creative writing major from UCLA, failed to comprehend plain English is beyond me.

“You're wasting my time and the time of others here with your unfounded and undisciplined conspiracy theories and your artless spinning and misrepresentation of facts.”

Who’s wasting the time of others? You continuously confuse points already clarified on this thread. How many times did I have to:

• give you the correct spelling of Arakji,

• remind you that he told Hopsicker in his e-mail that the photo was of his friend

• point out that he sent Hopsicker “several photos”

Edited March 22, 2008 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

[...]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that that isn’t enough information to do one of those background checks? That’s a lot more info than most people start out with. Can you provide a link to a service that demands all the info you are asking for or are you raising a red herring pushing for info you know I don’t want to ask the guy for at this point?

Yes, of course I really believe that. I am not going to spend good money that is in short supply chasing phantoms. I want verifiable information. Why do you -- or why should he have a problem with that? He's got a passport to hand, right. He flies all over the world, you said. China. Just ask him to scan it (high resolution for a change) and post it or PM it. I'll go on from there.

[…]

It is not unusual to ask and expect people to verify their identification. Photo's of passports are a standard way of doing that. It happens all the time

It seems like a rather invasive request to me. But you don’t think he should “have a problem with that”. I’ll make a deal with you, you post scans of the photo page of your passport and driver’s license and I’ll ask him.

Please provide me the contact info of some of the agencies you are thinking about contracting. I doubt the info you have thus far is as you claim insufficient.

“Additional to that is the observation that since he came forward to make an unsubstantiated allegation in the press, then he had better be prepared to prove who he is.”

Funny you said I lack credibility because I made a few errors on this thread. I caught a couple myself and admitted to the others. You have made repeated mistakes which you fail to acknowledge. He never went to the press, the person in this story who “came forward to make an unsubstantiated allegation in the press” was Keller

“You can spend all your remaining life speculating with questions like it is "quite unlikely" this, and "quite unlikely" that, for all I care. Set up a speculating forum and compose all the conspiracy theories you want. You won't mind if I don't join you, though. I doubt many others here will turn up either. So be prepared to have fun on your own. But let's try to stick to facts here, okay. Verifiable facts.”

What you really mean is that I should “stick to…verifiable facts” but Hopsicker and you aren’t subject to the same obligation, his and your comments on this story are rife with speculation based on little or no evidence and distortions of the facts.

“In answer to your typical intuitive confection, allow me to say that I have not convinced myself he (the second Mohamed) is a conspirator. He might be an innocent, naive dope. “

You can’t have it both ways either he was Keller’s Mohamed or he wasn’t.

“Never-the-less, I am mindful that his name appeared on an FBI terrorist list.”

So did lots of men all Arabs and/or Muslims, many/most of who aren’t tied to terrorism. We already know the FBI wanted to talk to him because he was an Arab who trained at the same airport as 3 of the 9/11 pilots around the same time.

“I am mindful that he had a listed address in a pancake house in Orlando located many hours drive from Venice where he flew and wonder why that was?”

No he listed a hotel in the closest town likely to have reasonably priced direct flights to Europe. A likely explanation is that he spent one or a few nights in Orlando before going to Venice and listed the address of his hotel on his copy of those foreigners have to fill out when they arrive in the US.

http://amsterdam.usconsulate.gov/uploads/i.../I-94_front.jpg

“(and I know it's many hours because I've driven from one to the other and back).”

What on earth were you doing in Venice? Are you friends with Hopsicker?

“And amazingly and coincidentally hs address in Orlando was in the same street as that of a certain Mohamed Atta”

His hotel was 3 miles down one of Orlando’s main commercial streets from the pancake joint that two years later Atta was listed as a co-owner of.

“…who may or may not be the Mohamed Atta, or the ghost of the Mohamed Atta. Possibly even the spook of Mohamed Atta. We don't know”.

Weren’t you the one going on about avoiding speculation and sticking to verifiable facts? The latter indicate he almost certainly wasn’t the terrorist but rather just one of the hundreds or thousands of Muslim Arab men with that name. You have yet to come up with a rational explanation as to why ‘that’ Atta or anyone associated with him would want to be involved in an Orlando IHOP franchise and if it were for some nefarious purpose why he wouldn’t have used an alias.

“I am also mindful that your Mohamed was the best friend of Wolfgang Bohringer (not just a passing acquaintance mind you, but bosom buddies),”

Let’s stick to “verifiable facts” shall we. If and when you come up with any evidence of that other than the word of a confessed and proven xxxx get back to us.

“…a "person of interest" to the Joint Task Force on Terrorism.”

Uuuuh FBI but even that’s not well documented, so claimed a single news outlet which didn’t cite any sources. It might well be true though but probably based more on the suspicious “flight school” he was trying to set up than anything else.

“Plus a few other mindfuls besides those just enumerated. Like snorting coke. Like dealing coke. Like having a never ending supply of unexplained cash. Criminal things.”

Let’s stick to “verifiable facts” shall we. If and when you come up with any evidence of that other than the word of a confessed and proven xxxx get back to us.

“Nice try on Hosicker driving down to the Keys just to help out your flagging and failing conspiracy theory -- he spent a year there but is back in his own home town these days. It's his parents who live in Venice. Maybe they should drive down to the Keys for you. Whaddyathink?”

I might have been mistaken I thought he’d moved there. But I looked into it and it’s not like you’d want us to believe. He didn’t leave Venice to never return as even his “reporting” makes clear. Arakji wrote him in late April – early May 2005. He was in Venice by early July 2005 http://www.madcowprod.com/sarasotaheraldtribune.htm

And was in town long enough in 2006 to get busted for out of date license tags, which suggests they were Florida tag. Venice is listed as his city of residence

http://www.veniceflorida.com/features/pdf/...ickerbusted.pdf

“Cognitive dissonance eh. Remind me to come back on that bit about the two pictures he sent Hopsicker of "himself" okay. Soon, When the time is right.”

No time like the present. Let’s stick to those “verifiable facts” you claim to be so enamored of. Shall we go over this one more time 1) Hopsicker said he sent “several photos” which indicated AT LEAST 3 or 4, thus Hopsicker didn’t release one or more, 2) there is no indication Arakji said or indicated all the photos were of “himself” to the contrary in a quoted passage Arakji clearly stated the photo was of his friend. If you aren’t suffering from “cognitive dissonance” the only explanation I can find for your seeming in ability to process these “verifiable facts” is that you are being intentionally obtuse.

“Whoops, sorry -- that would be him sending two pictures of his friend Peter to prove that he (the second Mohamed) was present, right.”

Two pictures of Peter (or one of Peter and another of his brother) plus the photos Hopsicker chose not to release. I’ve already explained a few times how the photos could serve as evidence he was there. If you don’t agree with those explanations perhaps you should say why rather than repeat yourself like a scratched record of a parrot with Tourette Syndrome

“Btw, I see you've moved on from the hazy "pawed" to the new hazier "groped" description,”

“Pawed” are “groped” synonyms in this context. If you prefer I’ll revert to the former.

“,,,instead of the very specific "hand stuffed down their pants".”

If and when you come up with any evidence of that other than the word of a confessed and proven xxxx get back to us.

“Always try to cloud and obscure the actualite to cause confusion, eh…”

Do you remember when you…

…kept asking me where my bio was, even though it was linked to the bottom of all my posts just like everyone else’s?

…asked me for the link to the Mineta testimony several posts after I provided it?

…kept misspelling Arakji’s name even after I corrected you 2 – 3 times?

Etc, etc

You get confused quite easily it seems, perhaps you should consult a neurologist or mental health professional rather than blame others.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Len Colby