Did Ruth Paine refuse to contact the ACLU?

[Greg Doudna]

On May 10 in a new article announced to the Education Forum, an accusation was posted to the effect that on the weekend of the assassination Ruth Paine refused to contact the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of Oswald or contact her husband to do so (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27756-the-framing-and-murder-of-lee-harvey-oswald/; https://gil-jesus.com/?page_id=4945). Gil Jesus: 

"Even if she could not contact Abt, why didn't Mrs. Paine, as a member of the Civil Liberties Union, contact that organization for help or at least contact her husband to do so?" . . . Ruth Paine had no intention of helping Lee Oswald." 

This accusation is based on no evidence nor was any claimed. 

Background: Marguerite Oswald talked to Ruth Paine late Friday night Nov 22, after their return from being questioned at the Dallas police station, about her son lacking legal counsel and her concern over lack of money to afford an attorney. Ruth, who in the past hours following the assassination had been traumatized by police illegally invading her home and taking her belongings out of her house without permission; responsible for two toddlers during the turmoil; whose attention was focused on being with and supporting Marina in those hours . . . had not seen Lee one moment that afternoon or evening. For all we know Marguerite's concern that Lee have a lawyer may have been the first moment that topic first came to Ruth's attention. The Dallas police did not allow family members access to Lee Friday evening and at Lee's arraignment for the murder of officer Tippit that Fri evening Lee was without legal counsel and the judge unconscionably did not appoint legal counsel for Lee, but there was no way Ruth could have known these details at the time of her talk with Marguerite back home later that night.

Ruth responded by trying to reassure Marguerite that the ACLU would see to it that Lee would have legal counsel even if he could not afford it.

Gil Jesus in his article claims Ruth Paine, after saying those consoling words to Marguerite Friday evening on the first occasion that the topic of a lawyer for Lee even came up to Ruth, then intentionally and malevolently refused to contact the ACLU, making Ruth Paine look like a horrible person from this accusation for which, to repeat, there is no evidence it is true.

That is different from what Michael Paine testified:

Mr. DULLES. There were no conversations that took place that evening [Fri Nov 22] that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know? 

Mr. PAINE. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.   

This means Ruth told Michael of Marguerite's concerns late Friday night, and Michael called the ACLU Saturday morning and was told the ACLU was on it. (In fact a delegation from the ACLU attempted to see Lee but the Dallas Police turned ACLU away without seeing Lee on the grounds that Lee had made no specific request to see them, apparently because police had not told Oswald ACLU was there asking to see him. Neither Michael nor Ruth Paine would have known these details any more than they would have known that Lee had not had a court-appointed attorney provided to him at the time of his arraignment for the Tippit killing.)

I pointed this out in a comment to Gil Jesus in a comment on his topic thread but it did no good. He answered other comments but ignored mine, no effect, no correction in the article. His article does not disclose to readers Michael Paine's testimony above.

Ruth Paine is routinely smeared in this way in this community and in print publications, in which accusations fabricated out of thin air are asserted as if facts. When error is pointed out some correct, others do not.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Karl Kinaski]

To get an authetic picture what kind of deep state stiff Ruth Paine was (and is), listen to this:

1963 SS Interview of Marguerite Oswald. Part 3.

Regarding Oswald Ruth Paine was lying and throwing around disinfo from the start ... several hours after LHO was arrested (friday night 22.11.1963) she told two strange acting men from LIFE magazine in her apartement Oswald get home from Russia by using his savings. Marguerite Oswald was there and interrupted: That's not true, Mrs Paine. 6min 05 sec.

The LIFE men were acting in a strange way because they were only interested in Ruth Pains statements about LHO and ignored his mother who was sitting there and witnessing Ruth Paines false statements about her son completely. But Marguerite was fighting back interrupting the Paine-LIFE men Q&A game.

At one point Marguerite said: ... I do not like this. I ve gone hrough publicity before, when Lee supposedly(sic) defected ...

Ruth Paine was (and is) a geyser of disinfo. And Marguerite Oswald recognized it at night on November 22. 1963 ...

[Greg Doudna]

The above post from Karl K. illustrates what I have seen over and over--some specific misstatement, some specific allegation concerning Ruth Paine is called out as not true, and the response is an avalanche of invective toward Ruth Paine over other things and reasons why she is claimed to be an evil person, with no addressing the original point.

As if it is OK to fabricate any specific allegation about Ruth Paine out of whole cloth, on the grounds that she is an evil person for so many other reasons so it is irrelevant whether any specific claim is true. This is not isolated to this instance but happens time after time. Then any discussion gets derailed into all these other issues.

By this logic no specific untruth or unfounded allegation concerning a targeted person can be fact-checked, because it triggers the avalanche of what-about-xyz over here and over there.

On the point at issue--that there is this allegation that Ruth Paine never lifted a finger to contact the ACLU--I don't know whether Gil Jesus invented it himself or copied it from someone earlier who copied it from someone who copied it from someone going back to someone who just made it up. Gil Jesus may not have started out knowingly intending to assert something as if it was an established fact which if it were true would be damaging to Ruth Paine's reputation but for which there is no evidence or basis. Everything else I can see from Gil Jesus's writing says, whether right or wrong on his arguments he is not the kind of person who would knowingly start out dishonest in his writing . . . but he now knows, and is not correcting. Just like others on this forum. When LN'ers do this sort of thing--refuse to correct and look like they know better--people are quick to use the L word. Yet failure to acknowledge error even when one can privately see it is error--one or two major CT names almost seem to have that as policy, to just ignore or try to smear the fact-checker (Gil Jesus has not done that; others have)--is so common that if the L word were applied to "refusal to admit error when one knows it is error" that would apply to a huge percentage of people here and everywhere. I am talking about the large category of people who are honest at the outset but once committed and for reasons of not wanting to be embarrassed it becomes a mode of, like Trump, never admit, never apologize, never retract.

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"--ancient near eastern law, one of the ten commandments. That is not wrong because a deity said it, but because humans know that is wrong because that is what humans condemn when others do to them. 

Or is it Ruth Paine is not considered in the category of "neighbor", a human being, has she become dehumanized such that false accusation is not considered even to matter in her case, in this rhetorical world of CT's represented by the Karl K. post, and I am citing Karl K.'s post here not to single him out but because it is so generically representative of an ethos in this community which is so wrong.

Turning to the subject which Karl K. raises, which is off-topic here, at a superficial level this could be called a Rorschach Inkblot phenomenon of mundane human interaction involving Ruth Paine interpreted in the worst possible light, over the top. But actually the issue of those Life magazine reporters and what they were doing in Ruth Paine's house I have something to say about that, which I will take up in a different post.

Suffice it to say for starters that contrary to Marguerite's claim in the interview clip posted by Karl in which she accuses Ruth Paine of inviting those reporters in--in the clip posted by Karl of a Secret Service interview of Marguerite Oswald of Mon or Tue Nov 25, 1963--Ruth Paine says those Life reporters were there because Marguerite had requested them. (This in an interview of Ruth Paine in the Max Good film, "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine".) There is a flat-out contradiction in "Who invited the reporters?", a she says vs. she says issue here, and it might be well to withhold automatic judgment against Ruth Paine absent a fuller consideration of the facts of this particular issue (some research concerning which I will develop under a different topic header).

And the other oddity about the clip of the Marguerite Oswald Secret Service interview interpreted by Karl in such negative terms concerning Ruth Paine, is that Marguerite at first denied that interview ever happened, then when pressed admitted she had spoken to Mike Howard into a recorder but denied it involved any questioning or that she had spoken longer then ten minutes (in fact Howard and Kunkel of the Secret Service interviewed Marguerite, taped and transcribed, about two hours), and suggested that she had been taped without her knowledge. Marguerite claimed in that interview not only that Marina was in on the plot to assassinate JFK but so were Ruth Paine and the two Secret Service agents protecting and interviewing her, Howard and Kunkel. 

Just to give a little context to citing Marguerite as evidence of Ruth Paine's alleged malfeasance.

 

Mrs. Oswald.

No, sir, I do not. So I sat there approximately 3 hours. And I never did get to see Lee.
So at 5:30--then Robert came in. And he was questioned by the FBI.

Mr. Rankin.

Were you there when he was questioned?

Mrs. Oswald.

No, sir.
And I will state now emphatically that I have never been questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service never, gentlemen. If they can produce my voice or anything, they can produce it.
So then I was escorted into the office where Marina and Mrs. Paine was. And, of course, I started crying right away, and hugged Marina. And Marina gave me Rachel, whom I had never seen. I did not know I had a second grandchild, until this very moment. So I started to cry. Marina started to cry. And Mrs. Paine said, "Oh, Mrs. Oswald, I am so glad to meet you. Marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, especially when the baby was being born. But Lee didn't want her to."
And I said, "Mrs. Paine, you spoke English. Why didn't you contact me?" 

Mrs. Oswald.

She said Marina didn't know how to get in touch with me.
She said, "Well, because of the way they lived, he lived in Dallas, and came home to my home on weekends. I didn't feel like I wanted to interfere."
And she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen. but this is very, very emotional.

The Chairman.

That is all right.

 

 

Mrs. Oswald.

So the FBI agent took us to the Six Flags.
I was never questioned by the Secret Service or the FBI at Six Flags. My son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and Marina was continuously questioned and taped. But I have never been questioned.
I had all the papers from the State Department, and all of my research from Lee's I say so-called defection. And I wanted them to have them. All the papers were at home.
I told them I thought I could save a lot of manpower, while they were getting the original papers, because I know that each department in the State Department had a reference on Lee, and I had the whole thing condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. They were not interested in any papers I had. They were not interested.

Mr. Rankin.

Were you not questioned on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Oswald.

No, sir. Here is what you may have on tape.
I insisted so much that they talked to me, because I had all this--that Mr. Mike Howard finally agreed--not 22d, though.

Mr. Rankin.

This is Mr. Harlan Brown and Mr. Charles T. Brown?

Mrs. Oswald.

That is the two FBI agents, Mr. Brown, questioned me in the office. But all they wanted to know is how did I know my son was an agent, and how did I know that he had the money from the State Department. And I told them Congressman Wright knew, and that they would investigate Congressman Wright. That was a very short questioning. I mean I explained that before. I told them I wanted to talk to the FBI, and I did. And it was the two Mr. Browns, and there were two other men.

Mr. Rankin.

Then Mr. Howard was what date?

Mrs. Oswald.

Mike Howard? Mike Howard was toward the end, because I was so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would put me on tape. But I do not consider this questioning. It was the date of the funeral--I remember now.

Mr. Rankin.

November 25th?

Mrs. Oswald.

Was that the day of the funeral? If this was the day of the funeral--I can tell you why. He decided he would put me on tape. So I started to tell him about my having the papers, and Lee's defection. And then Robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. I saw Robert crying. 

 

 

Mr. Rankin.

Now, that questioning was a question and answer. You were questioned by the FBI agent, Mr. Howard--

Mrs. Oswald.

No, sir. I was just talking.

Mr. Rankin.

The Secret Service man?

Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Mike Howard. I was talking on tape.

Mr. Rankin.

Didn't he ask you questions?

Mrs. Oswald.

I don't recall him asking any questions. It could be. But I frankly do not recall him asking any questions. But it was a very short session. And that is the way I ended the tape. I said, "My thoughts have left me because I see my son crying bitterly."
That is the way I ended the tape. And it was a very short tape. I do not remember him questioning me. I think I started to tell my story. And that is the only time.
It was from my persistence that I got on tape just that little while. They did not want to hear anything from me.

Mr. Rankin.

You don't think, then, that at that time there were questions and answers for about 28 pages taken from you?

Mrs. Oswald.

From me no, sir. Definitely not. If they have that, what they have is my talking, like I said, when I saw on television. They said--they were showing Lee's gun. And I was not watching television--I am getting snatches of it, and I said, "Now, how can they say, even though it is Lee's gun, that Lee shot the President. Even being his gun doesn't mean that he shot the President. Someone could have framed him."
If they have 28 pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. But no, sir, I did not sit and testify. I swear before God 10 times I never have. And that is the point that has bothered me.
Even before Lee's defection no one came along to the house. I called Mr. John Fain in the FBI myself to make friends with him. If they have 20 pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. They got it with a tape recorder going. But I did not, no, sir. 

 

 

Mr. Rankin.

Are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far as Marina was concerned?

Mrs. Oswald.

Now, what do you mean when you say improper?

Mr. Rankin.

Was there any improper relationship between them, as far as you know?

Mrs. Oswald.

No. I am saying--and I am going to say it as strongly as can--that I--and I have stated this from the beginning--that I think our trouble in this is in our own Government. And I suspect these two agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot.

The Chairman.

With who?

Mrs. Oswald.

With Marina and Mrs. Paine the two women. Lee was set up, and it is quite possible these two Secret Service men are involved.

Mr. Rankin.

Which ones are you referring to?

Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. Mike Howard and the man that I did not--did not know the name, the man in the picture to the left. I have reason to think so because I was at Six Flags and these are just some instances that happened--I have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. 

 

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, but this leak--this could be the party involved in the assassination of the President--the high officials I am speaking of, I cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen.

Mr. Rankin.

Well, you named the Secret Service men, two of them.

Mrs. Oswald.

That is right

Mr. Rankin.

Now, do you have anything that shows you that either of those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald.

I will answer that emphatically no. What I have stated is the way they treated me, sir. I elaborated the way these two men treated me--correct? I did that testimony yesterday.
So I have to consider these two men. I will put it that way.

Mr. Rankin.

Let's consider Marina Oswald. Do you have anything that will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald.

I feel like Marina is involved and also Mrs. Paine, yes.

Mr. Rankin.

Now, what do you have in that regard?

Mrs. Oswald.

All right--because Marina--now this I have said to Mr. Jack Lengett, who is a New York Times newspaperman a long time ago. And I was ashamed to say it to anyone else. And I didn't tell it to him for a long time.
The story yesterday at the Six Flags, when I said to you Marina shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. The second time she said-and I would not say it now unless I had told Mr. Jack Lengett-she said, "You no have job."
In other words, since Marina was being offered a home, then you go to--"You don't have job."
Before she was satisfied to take $863 and live with me. I was giving her my money and giving her my love. And then, "You no have job."
I am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. I love her. But I am trying to show you that there is two sides. I told you how she hit the little girl with the comb. "Mama, I no need you, Mama. You don't have job."

Mr. Rankin.

Why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald.

Because I am going to try to show there is discrepancies all along. She was not supposed to speak English. I testified that I, myself, questioned her for an FBI agent. I acted as interpreter. So Marina did know English and understand English. So that is a question.

Mr. Rankin.

I thought you said she spoke broken English.

Mrs. Oswald.

Broken English. But she is not supposed to speak English at all, until now that she has learned English. That has been publicized over and over.

Mr. Rankin.

And you think she could understand English fluently?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, sir. I also told you when she lived with me that month in my home, how we conversed and talked. And yet the impression is that Marina came here and didn't speak English at all.

Mr. Rankin.

How does that show she conspired 'to assassinate the President?

Mrs. Oswald.

Because Marina now is not happy. Marina was very happy, I explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they had rented this house. And then Marina made friends, very, very many friends. And Marina became discontented with Lee. Lee could not give her the things she wanted, what he told her about America. And Marina now has become discontented with me. I don't mean now--I mean at the Six Flags.
Mama always had a big heart. I quit a job to help these children, and that is perfectly all right. That is my nature.
But then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside.
I am trying to show this.  

 

 

Mr. Rankin.

What else is there now in regard to Marina that caused you to think she conspired to kill President Kennedy?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes--because everything is laid out in Mrs. Paine's home and Marina's home. The gun was in the garage.

Mr. Rankin.

Well, that doesn't make Marina do it, does it?

Mrs. Oswald.

No, but Marina told the police that the gun was there the night before. She saw the gun in the garage the night before. She didn't see Lee take it that morning. But she made a statement that she saw the gun the night before.
The pictures of Lee with the rifle came from that home. If Lee is going to assassinate the President or anybody else, is he going to have photographs laying all around with the gun? No, sir.
And there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son being the guilty one in this particular house.
All through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this particular house. And so I am a thinking person, I have to think.

Mr. Rankin.

Why does that show that Marina had anything to do with the conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, we are speculating, let's say. Marina is not happy. Lee can't give her any money and things. And she has made friends with these Russian folks that have cars and homes. And they are not happy because this Russian girl doesn't have anything. They are not happy about that.
And I am trying to show the disposition of the girl.
I love my daughter-in-law even now. Believe me, it is a sore spot to have to say this. But I have to face these facts of what I know.

Mr. Rankin.

You realize it is a very serious charge.

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, sir. And it is also a serious charge that my son is the assassin of President Kennedy. 

 

Mrs. Oswald.

You, yourself, yesterday said that she [Marina] testified that I told her to tear up the picture. God give me the grace--I did no such thing. My testimony is true.
So now she has lied there, I have found out.
And every evidence of any importance has come from this house. I have to face that.

Mr. Rankin.

What else do you have that shows that she had any part in the conspiracy to assassinate the President?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes. I am under the impression that probably she I think Lee is an agent. I have always thought that, and I have as much circumstantial evidence that Lee is an agent, that the Dallas police has that he is a murderer, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

What do you base that on?

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, I am going to tell my story. I have it all there. That is what I base it on.

Mr. Rankin.

Can you tell us in summary?

Mrs. Oswald.

No, sir, I don't think I want to tell it to you that way, because I cannot, almost.

Mr. Rankin.

That is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too.

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, fine. So all right.
If I feel that way, sir, don't I have the right, the American way, to speak up and to tell you what I feel? Isn't that my privilege?

Mr. Rankin.

Yes. But can't you tell us what you base it on?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, sir, I will, as I go along, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

Is that the only way you can tell it?

Mrs. Oswald.

I don't see how I can say to you I know he is an agent, and I have papers. I want to tell the whole story. I still have more papers. I have documents that I know you do not have, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

Have you told us all that you know that would bear on your claim that Marina Oswald was--

Mrs. Oswald.

Had a part in it.

Mr. Rankin.

Had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the President?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, sir--I cannot prove it. And I cannot prove Lee is an agent. I cannot prove these things.
But I have facts that may lead up to them. I cannot prove it, because if I did we would not be having this Commission, sir. 

 

 

Mr. Rankin.

And you are saying possibly Marina was involved?

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, exactly what I am trying to say. If I had proof, sir, I would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be closed, like Mr. Wade said.
But I have as much right to my way of thinking as Mr. Wade has.

Mr. Rankin.

You are saying that possibly the Secret Service agents were involved, too? You don't have any proof of that?

Mrs. Oswald.

That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I have told you how I was treated, which has even me cause for this particular way of thinking--because I believe that my son is innocent. And I think that is the purpose of this Commission, is to hear all witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. Am I not right, gentlemen?
So this is my way of thinking. So grant me my way of thinking. If I am wrong, fine. But you may learn something. 

 

 

Mr. Rankin.

You think that shows there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald.

I am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, a call, when they had contacted-and I am showing you what I have here. don't see any necessity of the State Department to call the International Rescue Committee.
And, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--Lee will not be helped.
I would like to know who called the International Rescue Committee from the State Department-yes, sir, I would.

Mr. Rankin.

Yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, no--now. Mr. Rankin, don't pin me down everything I say to the word conspiracy. I am trying to analyze a whole condensed program of things that are not correct. I am telling you about this. It could be just a simple thing, that he called. But I would like. to know who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and Lee was not going to get the money. Read the letter.

Mr. Rankin.

The reason I ask you about the conspiracy is because that is such a serious charge. And, as you say, if you could prove that, that would decide everything around here.

Mrs. Oswald.

That is right. And I am going to see if I cannot show you these things. 

 

 

Mr. Rankin.

Mrs. Oswald, do you have any problem about that being your voice on the tape?

Mrs. Oswald.

No, sir, but I think probably the rest of it is my voice. I had a news conference at the Fort Worth Press Club at Fort Worth, Tex., that I was on tape for 2 hours.
Now, here is what--this is probably a little over 10 minutes to hear "Pardon me, you will have to excuse me." And there was a lot of break there. That is exactly 10 minutes. I have testified that at the Inn of Six Flags I talked for about 10 minutes and then I stopped because my son was crying, and I still say I testified for 10 minutes approximately at the Inn of Six Flags.
I had a press conference at the Fort Worth Press Club, that can be verified that I talked for over 2 hours that I was on tape. I was sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was a man, and everything I said was on this tape, and it was over 2 hours that I talked at this press club.

Mr. Rankin.

Did you say the things that you say here?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes.

Mr. Rankin.

In answer to these questions?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

At the press club?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, sir. I talked for 2 hours.

Mr. Rankin.

And you didn't say it to this agent?

Mrs. Oswald.

I said, and I am going to continue to say this, that I had approximately 10 minutes interview at the Inn of Six Flags, and then the telephone rang and Robert came out and started crying. and I said I see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and I was not interviewed any further at the Inn of Six Flags, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

On this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, that is right.

Mr. Rankin.

Now, was there a little child like that at this----

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, June was at the Inn of the Six Flags and if I am as smart as they are and if they are as smart as I am, there could be a little child crying all during the rest of the testimony.

Mr. Rankin.

I see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where you gave your press conference?

Mrs. Oswald.

No, but I am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? I am just saying. because I have said before and I am saying now I was taped for about 10 minutes, just where this business came in was exactly 10 minutes, "Pardon me," now I spoke for over two and a half hours at the Fort Worth Press Club and was taped there.
What they can do with that tape, I don't know.

Mr. Rankin.

Who asked you the questions when you were answering them at the Fort Worth Press Club?

Mrs. Oswald.

Now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. So, I am saying, I do not know how they can get my voice and do the tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, I am not out of my mind and I have said this over and over publicly, that I have never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about 10 minutes at the Inn of the Six Flags.

Mr. Rankin.

Mr. Chairman, then I would like to go down about 5 or 6 minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we play for just a few minutes.

The Chairman.

All right.

Mr. Rankin.

Would you drop down for another 5 minutes? Skip about 5 minutes, please.

Mrs. Oswald.

After you start may I say something else?

Mr. Rankin.

Yes.

Mrs. Oswald.

All of this here I have said and also said in my home and I have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in by Mr. Max Phillips, Mr. Rankin. Why can't--I don't know anything about tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much I know because when I have talked for reporters, they don't use everything I say. They splice.

Mr. Rankin.

But you recognize, Mrs. Oswald, it would be quite a Job to splice in each one of those questions.

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, the assassination of the President of the United States and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth while, yes, sir, I realize that.

Mr. Rankin.

Let's try a little more.
(Transcription played.)

Mr. Rankin.

Do you want to say anything more about this?

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, I do. I haven't gone through all of this. I have made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. It was approximately a 10-minute conversation and it was stopped with the remark "I see my son crying. All my thoughts have left me."
Is that remark in this any place?

Mr. Rankin.

I don't recall that it is.

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, we will have to recall, because this, I have stated and was said and that is when 1 stopped the conversation at the Inn of the Six Flags. Robert came out crying because he couldn't get a minister and I said. "I see my son crying, now all my thoughts have left me," and the interview stopped at the Inn of Six Flags which I have testified was approximately 10 minutes.
Now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. This is not news to anybody. I have said this over and over and over. The ordinary layman by now knows my whole story, Chief Justice Warren. There was Mr. Max Phillips who had a microphone in my home. I testified on tape for over 2 hours at--talked at the Fort Worth Club, which would be, it is the same story over and over, I have told you all the same story that you already have here.

The Chairman.

Yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this place as it was at this hotel, was it?

Mrs. Oswald.

About now--I don't know if this is the same man on the whole tape because I haven't listened to it. No, no one interrogated me at the Fort Worth Press Club, sir. I talked, there was an open press.

The Chairman.

But it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it?

Mrs. Oswald.

That is correct. I have just stated, since this is a very big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on there. This I know, because the radio stations called me and they edited what I do. Isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. It would be a big job but I am asking isn't that possible? I swear that I have never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen.

The Chairman.

Shall we turn over about 10 minutes more and see if the same voices are in it there?
(Transcription played.)

Mrs. Oswald.

I am not sure but I think it was possible it was an editor that he put me on there.
(Transcription played.)

The Chairman.

Well, Mrs. Oswald, those are the same voices. 

Mrs. Oswald.

That is Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir, I recognize his voice, yes, sir.

The Chairman.

And that is your voice?

Mrs. Oswald.

That is my voice.

The Chairman.

Yes.

Mrs. Oswald.

But I am not going to vary from my story.

The Chairman.

Yes, all right.

Mrs. Oswald.

That is an interview just 10 minutes at the Inn of Six Flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and asked for the FBI of Lee getting the money to come home from the State Department and Congressman Wright knew about it and they left and they didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

Play just the last part.

Mrs. Oswald.

The last 25 minutes.

Mr. Rankin.

These last remarks that we listened to were on page 13.
(Transcription played.)

The Chairman.

Those are the same two voices, Howard's voice and your voice.

Mrs. Oswald.

Yes, I say those are the two same voices, Mr. Mike Howard's voice, yes, sir.

Mr. Rankin.

That is on page 21 of the transcript. Mr. Chairman, do you think there is any need for any more?

The Chairman.

I don't see any need for going any further with it.
Mrs. Oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and the transcription at the present time. So for the moment, I suppose we will just have to leave it where it is.
I don't see any other answer to it.

Mrs. Oswald.

All right. 

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, I have explained that I am speculating, that I have all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. That is what I am trying to tell you. I mentioned that before.

Mr. Rankin.

You are not trying to say to the Commission that you have the proof that there was a conspiracy?

Mrs. Oswald.

I have emphatically stated that I do not have the proof, because if I had the proof I would have an affidavit and give you gentlemen the proof. I made that clear two or three times. I wish I did have the proof, sir.
I think I said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone in our State Department or some official who would have part in this. He is a human being just like we are. He may have a title, but that doesn't make him a man back of the title.

Mr. Dulles.

What is this conspiracy now, Mr. Rankin? Is this the conspiracy to do away with the President, or is this a different conspiracy?

Mr. Rankin.

The conspiracy I was asking about was the conspiracy, she said, about the assassination of President Kennedy.
And she said that it involved the two Secret Service agents and her daughter-in-law and her son. That is the one I was asking about.

The Chairman.

And Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Oswald.

And Mrs. Paine. I feel like the facts have come from this particular source.

Mr. Rankin.

Now, as I understand she says now that she is speculating as to that being a possibility.

Mrs. Oswald.

Well, now, Mr. Rankin, I have not changed my testimony, if you are implying that. I may not have put it in a position you understood. because as I say, I certainly did not mean to imply that I had proof, because if I had proof I would not be sitting here taking all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. I would have had an affidavit and show you the proof. So if you want to call it speculation, call it speculation. I don't care what you call it. But I am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to Hoyle. And I believe that my son is innocent. And I also realize that my son could be involved. But I have no way of knowing these things unless I analyze the papers that I have, sir.

[Paul Brancato]

That poor besieged mother 

[Greg Doudna]

13 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

That poor besieged mother 

Completely right. Unfortunately lashing out in accusations that the Secret Service agents tasked with her personal protection, and Marina Oswald, and Ruth Paine were party to assassinating President Kennedy had no basis in fact, i.e. no different than the same genre of accusations toward innocent people to the present day: "spider sense"--which has resulted in untold numbers of false convictions and false executions in history.