Charles Bronson and Nix films show shot fired from pergola window and gunman exiting pergola.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

1 hour ago, Chris Bristow said:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27741-nix-frame-40-the-pergola-shot/

 

I replied on your thread:

"

Hi Chris,

I have to disagree with you here. 

Once you see the vapor trail on the Nix film, you see an immediate reaction downward by JC.

In the Zapruder film zframe 331, JC moves to the middle of the car and gets hit, you see a sharp downward reaction by JC and Zapruder's camera even jiggles at zframe 331. By zframe 336 you can start seeing a discoloration on the back of JC's jacket that was not there before."

[Chris Bristow]

I found that the copy of Nix I have shows slightly less than The Groden version Chris Davidson posted. The edges of the frame are cut off.
The top left image is the Groden version and shows that little upside down V shaped notch at top center. To the left of that the 2nd arrow shows a black mark hanging down from the top. That hanging mark is visible at multiple points and stays in the same position relative to the notch. 
 The middle image shows the position of that black blob just about when the theorized 'shooter' image appears to move across the wall of the pergola. I think the black mark is what looks like a shadow of a shooter escaping. If it is a shooter how are they leaving just  2/3 of a second after the head shot?
 The image on the right has an insert that shows two of the three light spots. They are the same spots in the bottom images marked as B. In my version of the nix film those spots never disappear  anywhere around the time the shooter is leaving. That is not possible. I have to assume if the original copy, or whatever I have, shows those light spots the whole time and the Groden copy does not, logic dictates the Groden copy is showing us an artifact that occurred in that copy. It would be beyond belief to say the persistent images in any copy of the Nix film are artifacts that appear when the shooter is blocking them and in the exact same place as the spots we see though the rest of the film and in the Moorman photo too.
 So if you go through the original Nix frames in question on the standard copy and increase the exposure you will find those light spots never disappear not even for a single frame. Those spots go as low as 3 feet and as high as 4 feet. Also consider that the two  lower bright spots at the bottom of the image never disappear either. Unless we are going to say the shooter took a 4 foot leap as they escaped there could be no shooter there.
 As to the timing working out for the vapor trail and JC's reaction I don't think the vapor trail is real. in frame 26(Two frames after the head shot as I have them numbered, there is a scratch that passes thru Fosters head. almost exactly like the 'vapor trail". In fact there are many such scratches in many frames, some thicker some thinner, but they are almost identical.
 We can quibble on many sub issues but the 3 bright spots not being blocked in any of the pertinent frames means no one was there to block them from Nix's view.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

10 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I found that the copy of Nix I have shows slightly less than The Groden version Chris Davidson posted. The edges of the frame are cut off.
The top left image is the Groden version and shows that little upside down V shaped notch at top center. To the left of that the 2nd arrow shows a black mark hanging down from the top. That hanging mark is visible at multiple points and stays in the same position relative to the notch. 
 The middle image shows the position of that black blob just about when the theorized 'shooter' image appears to move across the wall of the pergola. I think the black mark is what looks like a shadow of a shooter escaping. If it is a shooter how are they leaving just  2/3 of a second after the head shot?
 The image on the right has an insert that shows two of the three light spots. They are the same spots in the bottom images marked as B. In my version of the nix film those spots never disappear  anywhere around the time the shooter is leaving. That is not possible. I have to assume if the original copy, or whatever I have, shows those light spots the whole time and the Groden copy does not, logic dictates the Groden copy is showing us an artifact that occurred in that copy. It would be beyond belief to say the persistent images in any copy of the Nix film are artifacts that appear when the shooter is blocking them and in the exact same place as the spots we see though the rest of the film and in the Moorman photo too.
 So if you go through the original Nix frames in question on the standard copy and increase the exposure you will find those light spots never disappear not even for a single frame. Those spots go as low as 3 feet and as high as 4 feet. Also consider that the two  lower bright spots at the bottom of the image never disappear either. Unless we are going to say the shooter took a 4 foot leap as they escaped there could be no shooter there.
 As to the timing working out for the vapor trail and JC's reaction I don't think the vapor trail is real. in frame 26(Two frames after the head shot as I have them numbered, there is a scratch that passes thru Fosters head. almost exactly like the 'vapor trail". In fact there are many such scratches in many frames, some thicker some thinner, but they are almost identical.
 We can quibble on many sub issues but the 3 bright spots not being blocked in any of the pertinent frames means no one was there to block them from Nix's view.

Hi Chris,

I found that the copy of Nix I have shows slightly less than The Groden version Chris Davidson posted. Keyvan>> That is not a Robert Groden version.  Groden's version does not show the film spokes.

If it is a shooter how are they leaving just  2/3 of a second after the head shot?

Keyvan>>The Groden copy is a copy of the original Nix Film. The only 1st generation copy that I know of.  What we see in the film is movement (gunmen leaving).  If I were a gunman, I would get out of there asap.  I would not stay there an instant longer.  Since there are gunshots and there is movement afterwards, that is what occurred.  It is hard to accept, but it is what it is.  As for the timing of the gunmen leaving, it cannot be determined as the speed of the film is variable, but from personal experience shooting paintball, I shoot and leave a scene, this can be done within one to two seconds.

I do want to mention that I do see movement of another person leaving  before the gunman can be seen leaving on the nix film.

What we see there is:

1) A shot from the second window from the top of the pergola.

2) Movement of a gunman leaving the pergola towards the rail yard parking lot.

3) A vapor trail with the head of the gunman showing at the wall edge of the front opening, his head aligns with the 2nd window from the bottom. A partial head of the gunman is seem various times in the wall edge of the pergola before the vapor trail is seen.  I spoke to Gary Mack extensively about the vapor trail in 2008.  He always told me to ignore it.  I did for a while until I got a copy of the Groden version of the Nix film.  I have asked the Sixth Floor Museum to make public frames similar to the Zapruder film so researchers can better study the film.  Unfortunately, the Groden version converted the original film to Beta and then digitally transferred to what we see now.  But from what we can view in it, we really need a high definition version from the original.

4) The Mary Moorman photo shows a partial gunman in the same wall edge.  The coloration of the gunman has the same coloration as Mr. Zapruder and Ms. Sitzman on the pedestal.

5) Movement of the vapor trail gunman leaving the pergola towards the rail yard parking lot is seen.

2nd gunman before vapor trail:

2nd gunmen right before vapor trail and vapor trail

2nd gunman movement images after the vapor trail:

The Mary Ann Moorman photo sourced from NBC - Shows the same color for Zapruder, Sitzman, and gunman. 

I have always wondered about the man figure exiting the pergola - I marked it with a '?'.  Is that gunman #1 getting out of the pergola?

The pergola seems to be the perfect place for the gunmen.  We have a) Zapruder and Sitzman in the pedestal. b) Gunmen inside the pergola.

In my head, a will be cover for b.  It is hard for me to think that Zapruder & Sitzman are part of the conspiracy.  Sitzman denied gunmen in the pergola in her interview.  Zapruder did not.

This below image is for reference.  The 2nd window from the bottom, bottom side is about six feet.  I am six feet and I can view out that windows.

[Richard Price]

3 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

The pergola seems to be the perfect place for the gunmen.

I am not an expert on this, or any other aspect of the JFKA, but I have to disagree with your hypothesis on this.  If you look at the inferred angle of this shot, it would have been really close to 90 degrees to JFK's right side.  From what I have studied, I would say the shot came from down the fence line past the walkway steps.  I come up with this based on the following:  the many witnesses who thought the saw movement in the area; the possible smoke coming from under the trees; the pictures of JFK with a possible small entry wound in the hairline on the right of his head and the blow-out on the right rear of his head.  I know bullets do not necessarily travel in a straight line, and I am not saying this one did.  If a high powered rifle shot entered the right front of JFK's head on a downward angle from the elevated knoll/fence line in the area where the muddy footprints and "movement/smoke" were noticed, it would be virtually straight and would exit at a point lower on JFK's head.  The position of his head when the shot occurred would cause the exit point to be at or near the base of the skull and it would have continued on towards the left rear taillight on the limousine.  This is why so much was done to obliterate the location as reported by Parkland doctors.  The location of the blowout in combination with the small entrance hole at the hairline and the position of JFK's head (downward and facing toward the left) all agree and point to one small area ONLY.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

1 hour ago, Richard Price said:

I am not an expert on this, or any other aspect of the JFKA, but I have to disagree with your hypothesis on this.  If you look at the inferred angle of this shot, it would have been really close to 90 degrees to JFK's right side.  From what I have studied, I would say the shot came from down the fence line past the walkway steps.  I come up with this based on the following:  the many witnesses who thought the saw movement in the area; the possible smoke coming from under the trees; the pictures of JFK with a possible small entry wound in the hairline on the right of his head and the blow-out on the right rear of his head.  I know bullets do not necessarily travel in a straight line, and I am not saying this one did.  If a high powered rifle shot entered the right front of JFK's head on a downward angle from the elevated knoll/fence line in the area where the muddy footprints and "movement/smoke" were noticed, it would be virtually straight and would exit at a point lower on JFK's head.  The position of his head when the shot occurred would cause the exit point to be at or near the base of the skull and it would have continued on towards the left rear taillight on the limousine.  This is why so much was done to obliterate the location as reported by Parkland doctors.  The location of the blowout in combination with the small entrance hole at the hairline and the position of JFK's head (downward and facing toward the left) all agree and point to one small area ONLY.

Hi Richard,

This is not a hypothesis. 

In the Nix film, you see a shot from the pergola window.  You see a gunman exit the pergola. You see another gunman shoot and create a vapor trail.  You then see the gunman exit the pergola. 

In the Bronson film, you see a shot from the same pergola window that a shot is seen in the Nix film.  You also see a gunman leave the pergola from the same place a gunman leave the pergola in the Nix film.

The film evidence shows a shot from the pergola.  What witnesses say is different from what actually occurred.  The Parkland doctors can say what they want to say, the Nix and Bronson film says otherwise.

What the films show and the autopsy pictures and x-rays show is that a bullet entered JFK right above the ear, hitting the temporal bone (not the temple), the thickest bone in the skull, causing a tangential shot exiting the top of his skull. 

In the Zfilm frame 313, you see the bullet/skull matter fly towards the south side of Elm street grassy area.  This shot alone tells you where the shot came from.  From the right side of Mr. Zapruder.   The second windows from the top of the pergola.

The autopsy photograph shows the damage to the top of his ear.  Look at the scalp fatty tissue with blood spread to the left of the path of the bullet toward the top of his head.  This photograph shows you the path of the bullet.  The orderly who is now a pathologist, Dr. James Curtis Jenkins, who assisted Dr. Boswell, to this day says the brain was damaged in the right back area, but otherwise, the brain was in tack.  That is what the autopsy x-ray shows and Dr. Hume's WC testimony states.  There was a wound of entry to the back of JFK, but most probably at zframe 231-232 when his head moves forward.  There is no exit for this bullet.  I would venture and say this bullet killed JFK, severing his brain stem, as noted by Dr. Jenkins.

[Richard Price]

4 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

This is not a hypothesis. 

In the Nix film, you see a shot from the pergola window.  You see a gunman exit the pergola. You see another gunman shoot and create a vapor trail.  You then see the gunman exit the pergola.

Last call on this topic.  I do not see any of the above in the photos/film.  It may show movement and there may have been people up in that area moving, but that does not mean they are gunmen.  The film is all too grainy to make any valid judgements, only conjecture.  I will continue with my belief that the shot came from behind the fence on the knoll, the angles, blood splatter and witnesses fit that scenario much better.  Best of luck with your hypothesis.

[Chris Bristow]

Leroy Blevins got a whole lot of mileage out of this Theory. it is all over the internet. But in the end there is no real Visual Evidence of ac people in the pergola.

 Interpretation of light and dark spots within the pergola need to be compared with other places in the pergola. Through the west door and above the windows in the back  the same pattern light and dark spots are. The same type seen  at the supposed shooter location firing through the South entry. The image of Abraham zabruder is said to be the same in color as the shooter in the doorway. Well any color matching is done by a human who is colorizing the film, so It can't really be a basis of comparison. If we were to compare the black and white version of those two images you would have to ask, why is the image of people in bright sunlight comparable to someone in total shadow?

  Multiple frames in the Nix film show scratches pretty much identical to what is considered the vapor trail in Nick's frame 40. This has to be weighed against the claim of a vapor trail and frame 40

 The theory of a shooter leaving the pergola within 2/3 of a second of the headshot is not possible. Anyone who  knows what it's like to fire a rifle, knows that the shot and recoil on your body takes up to a half a second. Let's say as little as eight frames. That leaves about one quarter of a second to go from shooting through the South doorway to exiting the West doorway.

 It has been claimed that the Mormon photo shows the person about to egress. Now we are down to two frames from the shot to being 10 ft away from there and running out the west door. Not possible.

The evidence supporting the pergola shooter regarding the timing of events compared to JC's reaction does not overcome the problematic Logistics of the claim.

Finally the Blevins theory that Connally was shot at frame 40 which shows the vapor trail is measurably impossible. The trajectory passes close to the center of the Pyracantha  bush. I was very liberal when calculating the highest trajectory possible over the bush. It just does not work. No matter how you plot the trajectory the bush blocked any view to the limo.

I went to some lengths to check the measurements of the trajectory. It was significantly boring. If you want to check my math in the Nix frame 40 thread it will be equally boring and take a few hours to verify exact Heights above sea level, but I I'm fully open to criticism of that. The exact height above sea level of Connally's injury and the rifle in the pergola take some effort to pin down.

 In the end the trajectory goes right through the bush even being as liberal as possible about a higher trajectory that would pass over it.

My personal opinion is that we don't have to argue about subjective interpretation of images. At this point it can be mathematically proven that the second part of the theory regarding a shot to Connally is impossible as it is blocked by the pyracantha bush .

The image of the headshot to JFK is wildly off in the angle of the vapor trail. It points far above JFK. While a headshot from the pergola would pass over the top of the bush there is nothing to support a theory of a shot from there other than personal opinions about photographic interpretation. If the majority looked at it and agreed they saw a person there that would be of some value. But that is not the case. This seems to be one of those CT' s is refuted simply by the facts of the case.

 

 

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

It is time to re-evaluate this conspiracy.

It can no longer be ignored that JFK's head shot originated from the pergola.

There are two films, The Nix film and the Bronson film that show irrefutable evidence that 1. a shot from the second window from the top and 2. gunmen leaving the pergola.