Oswald's Light-Colored Jacket

[Tony Krome]

7 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

The shooting occurred as Benavides was approaching the patrol car. He heard the shots and hit the brakes about fifteen feet before reaching the spot. If he would have "mashed the gas pedal", he would have placed himself in the line of fire had the shooting continued. 

 

My question was; what do you estimate the time span was between the 1st & 2nd shots? 

[Michael Kalin]

8 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Bill Smith told the Warren Commission that he heard the shots and saw Tippit fall to the ground and the killer run off.

He couldn't have seen such a thing from 9th and Denver. 

Exactly. This is why he didn't see what he said he saw to the WC. Otherwise, how did he miss Frank Wright?

As to Burt's latter day interview years after the event, too late, preempted by the 12/15/63 FBI interview. Stories change over time, especially when several years intervene. Smith's changed in a matter of months. What he told the WC was not what he had told the FBI .

No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
--old saying

[Michael Kalin]

@Bill Brown

While pondering Smith, Burt, Benavides & Wright also give some thought to the presence of Cimino. He arrived at the murder scene just after the shooting while Tippit was groaning, observed Markham and no one else.

He will require a time slice of his own. Your move as to how thin.

Resist the temptation of arbitrary dismissal, a luxury your weak arguments cannot afford.

[Greg Doudna]

Bill -- and Michael --

Jimmy Burt's original story to the FBI that he drove a car and parked it the wrong way on the Tippit car side of the street cannot be dismissed, since Frank Wright reported seeing that very car, parked the wrong way on the Tippit car side of the street. 

Also, as Michael brings out, Frank Wright doesn't see Burt and Wm Smith in his front yard when he goes out, but DOES see a man standing near the prone body of Tippit run to the Jimmy Burt car (parked the wrong way = Jimmy Burt's car described to FBI) and drive off.

Then there are timing issues.

A lot would make sense if (a) Burt and Wm Smith were covering up if e.g. Wm Smith was illegally driving that car (suspended license, whatever); and (b) both of them were already in the car, maybe parked near Burt's house, when they saw the gunman and Tippit down the street so as to be able to drive and get there immediately--within seconds. Solves the timing issue, solves why Frank Wright saw the car there by the time he got out to look rather than seeing both of them in his front yard. 

Then imagine Frank Wright saw one of them down the street standing near the prone body of Tippit, then run and drive off in that car as Wright described, and Tatum was seeing the same thing, but Tatum misinterpreted it with that business of thinking it was the gunman running around the back end of of the Tippit patrol car. If Tatum saw Burt or Wm Smith do that and then point to Tippit to the other that could look from Tatum's distance like pointing a gun at Tippit ... Tatum, scared at that point, drives his car forward in a hurry and therefore misses seeing what Frank Wright saw next--the same man run to get into the Jimmy Burt car and drive off. 

The main point is Frank Wright confirms--witnessed--the Jimmy Burt/Wm Smith car described by Jimmy Burt to the FBI. Therefore the Jimmy Burt car briefly parked the wrong way next to the Tippit patrol car moments after the shooting told by both Jimmy Burt to the FBI and seen by Wright, is fact. They (Burt and Wm Smith) did not get to the scene by walking or running there, as Wm Smith claimed, because the car is fact. And the motive for denying the role of the car (on the part of Wm Smith and in the changing stories of Burt) would be because of unwillingness to admit something illegal (but unrelated to the Tippit killing), such as illegally driving.

What do you think Bill?

If it was only Jimmy Burt telling the FBI he drove there that way it would be unclear since their stories differ. But in this case, Frank Wright--credible-- independently saw that Jimmy Burt/Wm Smith car there, and the "parked the wrong way" detail (Burt; Wright) independent stories removes any doubt that is the same car. 

So the issue is not whether they got there by car, they did. The issue is why Jimmy Burt and Wm Smith are somehow denying or covering up the role of the car, and some illegal and potentially parole-violating or whatever consequences such as illegal driving with a suspended license (or whatever) would be a good reason for Burt and Wm Smith to dissemble over the role of the car, trying not to get self or their friend in trouble with the law over that. 

[Michael Kalin]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:31 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Jimmy Burt's original story to the FBI that he drove a car and parked it the wrong way on the Tippit car side of the street cannot be dismissed, since Frank Wright reported seeing that very car, parked the wrong way on the Tippit car side of the street. 

An astute observation but there's a discrepancy regarding the respective vehicles. Burt told the FBI his car was a "1952 two-tone blue Ford." The Nashes reported that Wright claimed he saw a "grey little old coupe...about a 1950-1951, maybe a Plymouth." It's not obvious how to resolve this gracefully, but it's a relatively small problem.

There's a bigger problem:

On 5/5/2023 at 9:31 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Then there are timing issues.

And they are acute. Lacking your stamina of composition, I'll keep it brief. Frank Cimino defeats just about every scenario I can devise. A tough nut to crack, Cimino did not observe any of the following during the immediate aftermath of the murder, whose presence has become almost canonical: 1) Benavides; 2) Davises; 3) Clemmons; 4) Scoggins; and 5) Tatum. The one major witness he saw (Markham) was not observed by Wright, but none of Burt, Smith & Wright was observed by Cimino!

The salient paragraph of Cimino's 12/4/63 FBI report follows -- a conspicuous fly in the mise-en-scene ointment. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

FRANK CIMINO, 403 East Tenth Street, Apartment 7, Dallas, Texas, advised that on November 22, 1963, he was residing in an apartment at 405 East Tenth Street. He stated that at around 1 p.m. he was at his apartment listening to the radio. He heard four loud noises which sounded like shots and then he heard a women scream. He jumped up, put on his shoes and ran outside the house, and a woman dressed like a waitress was out in front of his residence shouting, "Call the police". She also advised a man had just shot a police officer and stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street. He looked in this direction but did not see anyone. He then walked over to the officer and saw he had been shot in the head. The officer was lying on his side with his head in front of the left front head light of his car. His gun was out of the holster and lying by his side. The officer moved slightly and groaned but never said anything that he could understand. About this time people came from all directions, and he walked up to the corner of Patton and East Tenth Street and looked through the alleyway but could not see anyone running up the alley. He then walked back to where the officer was being removed by an ambulance and then turned back to his apartment. He stated he was not acquainted with LEE OSWALD or JACK RUBY.

[Greg Doudna]

Michael, on Frank Cimino, the anomaly I can see is lack of mention of seeing Jimmy Burt and Wm Smith, but the rest would be part of his "About this time people came from all directions". Helen Markham thinks the killer went in the alley as about the location on Patton where she last saw him even though the killer actually went south on Patton to Jefferson from other witnesses. Could it be Cimino "put[ting] on his shoes" took long enough (sixty seconds?) for Burt and Smith to have driven there and left by the time he got out his front door to see for himself? 

[Michael Kalin]

Thanks Greg, but delaying Cimino springs a trap -- he would have bumped into Callaway, Guinyard & Russell on Patton, also Benavides on 10th after mustering the courage to exit his truck. In any case he should have seen Scoggins.

Incidentally, Burt supports Markham's observation of the fugitive running in the alley:

At the intersection of 10th and Patton Streets the man ran south on Patton Street. BURT said he ran to the intersection of 10th and Patton and when he was close enough to Patton Street to see to the south he saw the man running into an alley located between 10th and Jefferson Avenue on Patton Street. The man ran in the alley to the right and would be running west at this point. [FBI 12/15/63 100-16601]

The auto contingent may have seen somebody but it was not the killer, who did not run the length of Patton from E. 10th past the alley to the intersection with Jefferson. Their story was poorly contrived. The participants couldn't even keep it straight as to which side of Patton the fugitive took.

[Bill Brown]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:02 PM, Tony Krome said:

My question was; what do you estimate the time span was between the 1st & 2nd shots? 

 

We're talking about a split second.  My opinion is that all of the shots were fired from across the hood in a period of two to three seconds from the first to the last.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:31 AM, Greg Doudna said:

Bill -- and Michael --

Jimmy Burt's original story to the FBI that he drove a car and parked it the wrong way on the Tippit car side of the street cannot be dismissed, since Frank Wright reported seeing that very car, parked the wrong way on the Tippit car side of the street. 

Also, as Michael brings out, Frank Wright doesn't see Burt and Wm Smith in his front yard when he goes out, but DOES see a man standing near the prone body of Tippit run to the Jimmy Burt car (parked the wrong way = Jimmy Burt's car described to FBI) and drive off.

Then there are timing issues.

A lot would make sense if (a) Burt and Wm Smith were covering up if e.g. Wm Smith was illegally driving that car (suspended license, whatever); and (b) both of them were already in the car, maybe parked near Burt's house, when they saw the gunman and Tippit down the street so as to be able to drive and get there immediately--within seconds. Solves the timing issue, solves why Frank Wright saw the car there by the time he got out to look rather than seeing both of them in his front yard. 

Then imagine Frank Wright saw one of them down the street standing near the prone body of Tippit, then run and drive off in that car as Wright described, and Tatum was seeing the same thing, but Tatum misinterpreted it with that business of thinking it was the gunman running around the back end of of the Tippit patrol car. If Tatum saw Burt or Wm Smith do that and then point to Tippit to the other that could look from Tatum's distance like pointing a gun at Tippit ... Tatum, scared at that point, drives his car forward in a hurry and therefore misses seeing what Frank Wright saw next--the same man run to get into the Jimmy Burt car and drive off. 

The main point is Frank Wright confirms--witnessed--the Jimmy Burt/Wm Smith car described by Jimmy Burt to the FBI. Therefore the Jimmy Burt car briefly parked the wrong way next to the Tippit patrol car moments after the shooting told by both Jimmy Burt to the FBI and seen by Wright, is fact. They (Burt and Wm Smith) did not get to the scene by walking or running there, as Wm Smith claimed, because the car is fact. And the motive for denying the role of the car (on the part of Wm Smith and in the changing stories of Burt) would be because of unwillingness to admit something illegal (but unrelated to the Tippit killing), such as illegally driving.

What do you think Bill?

If it was only Jimmy Burt telling the FBI he drove there that way it would be unclear since their stories differ. But in this case, Frank Wright--credible-- independently saw that Jimmy Burt/Wm Smith car there, and the "parked the wrong way" detail (Burt; Wright) independent stories removes any doubt that is the same car. 

So the issue is not whether they got there by car, they did. The issue is why Jimmy Burt and Wm Smith are somehow denying or covering up the role of the car, and some illegal and potentially parole-violating or whatever consequences such as illegal driving with a suspended license (or whatever) would be a good reason for Burt and Wm Smith to dissemble over the role of the car, trying not to get self or their friend in trouble with the law over that. 

 

What do you think Bill?

 

I think Frank Wright gets outside and looks down the street way too fast for Burt and Smith to already be down there in the car.

 

I think Burt and Smith were out in the front yard of the house at the corner of Tenth and Denver, exactly as Smith testifies to during his Warren Commission testimony and exactly as Burt describes to Chapman in the 1968 interview I linked to above.

 

[Michael Kalin]

19 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

I think Burt and Smith were out in the front yard of the house at the corner of Tenth and Denver, exactly as Smith testifies to during his Warren Commission testimony and exactly as Burt describes to Chapman in the 1968 interview I linked to above.

Al Chapman's interview merits further consideration. In this version of events Burt & Smith observe a man walking west on the opposite side of East 10th eventually reaching Tippit's car. Tippit rolls down the passenger side window, and soon shots ring out. Burt & Smith proceed on foot to the murder scene, then to the corner of Patton & 10th, head south on Patton to the alley where they observe the man at the Crawford end of the alley, nothing about a detour into the parking lot to throw down a jacket. [interview transcript at Armstrong's document repository at Baylor]

The man across the street was the same observed by William Lawrence Smith, the bricklayer working a job at 500 E. 10th. Now a light should turn on -- we have a reason for the almighty muddle of the FBI reports & WC testimony. This is the standard practice of injecting confusion & contradiction into a narrative when the actual events are not acceptable.

Neither Burt nor WL Smith testified to the WC, but WA Smith was proxied in as a preemptive strike against the latter, heading off his explicit statements to the FBI regarding the passage of the man who looked like Oswald westbound on 10th.

Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man [Tippit's killer] was after you heard these shots?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?
Mr. SMITH. No.
Mr. BALL. You hadn’t seen him walking in front of the house--
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where you were standing?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

The reason for doing this is obvious. WL Smith is anathema to the official scenario.

If one must choose among the various Burt/WA Smith reports & statements, the Chapman interview is OK by me, but the WR bites the dust as collateral damage. Cherry picking not allowed.

 

[Michael Kalin]

Here's the pertinent info WL Smith gave the FBI:

Mr. SMITH advised that he was brick-laying at 500 East 10th Street, Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963. He said that he left the job and went to lunch, exact time unrecalled, and noticed a man walking west on 10th Street. A few minutes after he got to the cafe located at 10th and Marsalis, GEORGE CHAPMAN, a bricklayer who lives on Carnation Street in Mesquite, Texas, came after him and said "Somebody shot a policeman". SMITH said that he and CHAPMAN returned immediately to 500 East 10th Street and arrived in time to see a police officer being put into an ambulance.
...
SMITH said he later learned that this was Officer J. D. TIPPIT. After seeing photographs of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, he feels sure that the man who walked by him going west on 10th Street while he (SMITH) was going to lunch, was LEE HARVEY OSWALD.
FBI 1/11/64 SA William G. Brookhart DL 100-10461

The sequence of events provides discrete time markers. The radio tapes are not accurate in this regard for many reasons, some of which are discussed in CE1974.

1. Smith heads east to the diner (600+ feet distant) and passes Oswald himself or a lookalike heading west to the encounter with Tippit (380+ feet distant).
2. At about the same time that Smith is sipping a cup of joe at the diner, Tippit is gunned down.
3. The bricklayers at 500 E. 10th stop work and focus their attention on the murder scene to the west.
4. Chapman decides to fetch Smith at the diner and both return "in time to see a police officer being put into an ambulance."  

Did Chapman walk or drive? Unknown from Smith's statement, and the FBI apparently did not take a statement from Chapman. In either case this interval of lapsed time cannot be compressed into a four minute (or shorter) span, ending before Tippit's placement in the ambulance. WR puts the time of the murder at 1:16. This is hopelessly retarded, doubtful anyone still believes it, but so is With Malice's 1:14:30. Incidentally Myers compresses space as well as time, specifying a distance of 200-225 feet from 501 E. 10th to the murder scene, little more than half of the actual 390+ feet.

If Chapman walked the time of the shooting syncs up nicely with Markham's reported 1:06, but driving by no means invalidates it. This is not a track & field relay race started by the sound of the shots that killed Tippit, with steps occurring in rapid succession.

An interval of observation & discussion among the bricklayers preceded Chapman's departure to the diner. On arrival he had to discuss the situation with Smith, who may have decided to cut short his lunch but still had to pay the bill. These things take time.

Attached map shows the distances.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Michael Kalin
added some address numbers

[Michael Griffith]

I think that any analysis of the Tippit witnesses has to acknowledge and consider the corrupting, intimidating, and suppressing influence of the DPD and the FBI on the witnesses. The authorities were determined to twist and influence the witness statements to make them fit the Oswald-did-it theory as much as possible.

They told Acquilla Clemons to keep her mouth shut about seeing two men involved in the shooting. The FBI refused to take a statement from her with the lame excuse that she had diabetes. The authorities used flimsy excuses to reject Earlene Roberts' matter-of-fact account of a police car stopping in front of the house and tapping its horn just before Oswald left the house.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 5/19/2023 at 10:40 AM, Michael Griffith said:

I think that any analysis of the Tippit witnesses has to acknowledge and consider the corrupting, intimidating, and suppressing influence of the DPD and the FBI on the witnesses. The authorities were determined to twist and influence the witness statements to make them fit the Oswald-did-it theory as much as possible.

They told Acquilla Clemons to keep her mouth shut about seeing two men involved in the shooting. The FBI refused to take a statement from her with the lame excuse that she had diabetes. The authorities used flimsy excuses to reject Earlene Roberts' matter-of-fact account of a police car stopping in front of the house and tapping its horn just before Oswald left the house.

 

 

"They told Acquilla Clemons to keep her mouth shut about seeing two men involved in the shooting."

 

Clemons doesn't say she saw two men involved in the shooting.  She makes no mention of the two men being associates.