Was the assassination rifle posted to the Neely Street address?

[Tom Gram]

12 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Can one download that 1960's POD form list some where ? I wouldn't mind taking a look, just don't have a list to check

Here’s what I’ve been using. It doesn’t show the origin date for a lot of the forms but it’s the most complete list I’ve found:

http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/US_Postal_Forms.aspx

There’s also a current and former USPS employees forum on Reddit that I’ll ask about the section three update thing. 

[Guest]

In a way, the sect. 3 was a forwarding order (let it be for for specific mail / PO box)

But I think they could use one of these forms :

546 / Forwarding order change notice / change of address form / July 1972 ASW /      2005 DLS / In 5/58 to 6/99

Now, I'm not sure about the following, neither was the author,, apparently from Nov. 1963 ???

3982 / Forwarding Order // Changes of address / unsure how the early versions were used? Later versions were PO record listing of multiple changes of address  /Nov. 1963 ASW / 2005 DLS / in 1914, 1923, 1932, 1948 List of Postal SuppliesIn 3/1/52 POM to 6/99

I do not know how these forms looked, perhaps they had a box to ID what specific mail had to be forwarded to a new/changed address

Edited September 2, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

Another "issue" with the addresses changing a lot, I believe because of Marina's Russian passport she had to inform the Russian Embassy in Washington about any change of address in the USA.  But I don't have a clue if she did it or not.  

[Tom Gram]

41 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Another "issue" with the addresses changing a lot, I believe because of Marina's Russian passport she had to inform the Russian Embassy in Washington about any change of address in the USA.  But I don't have a clue if she did it or not.  

She did. She changed her address with the Embassy to P.O. Box 2915 in December ‘62 - saying “this is my post office box, Mrs. M Oswald, Box 2915, Dallas” which is pretty interesting because the FBI reported the box was in the name of “Mrs. Lee H. Oswald” and/or “Oswald’s mother” all the way to the highest levels of government for over 24 hours after the assassination.  

Both Marina and Lee later changed their address with the Embassy to 4907 Magazine St. on 5/15/63 - the same day Oswald filed his “correction” Form 3575 with the Irving Post Office (that was deep-sixed) to forward his mail from Ruth Paine’s house  - and subsequently changed it to P.O. Box 30061, which I think was on June 12th. 

I’m traveling at the moment so don’t have the links handy but the Soviet Embassy COAs are discussed in Parts 2 and 3 of my essay and there are footnotes to the documents if you are interested. 

[Guest]

If you have a version with footnotes I would be very interested.  I was just looking up some of the Endnotes. 

Noticed I marked the embassy correspondance in the margin, don't know how I overlooked that.  Decided a few days ago to write my notes/markings/questions in a seperate notebook, much easier.

I do remember you noticed somewhere you had removed a part or section because the essay was getting too long ?

 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

If you have a version with footnotes I would be very interested.  I was just looking up some of the Endnotes. 

Noticed I marked the embassy correspondance in the margin, don't know how I overlooked that.  Decided a few days ago to write my notes/markings/questions in a seperate notebook, much easier.

I do remember you noticed somewhere you had removed a part or section because the essay was getting too long ?

 

I meant endnotes. There are so many that with footnotes it just looked weird and took up half the pages. If you have trouble looking up any of the documents let me know, I have bookmarks of everything. 

The longest section I removed was on the pre-assassination investigation of Oswald, which was basically a revised version of the corresponding chapters in John Newman’s Oswald and the CIA with more of a focus on mail. I might try to expand and publish it at some point. 

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

She did. She changed her address with the Embassy to P.O. Box 2915 in December ‘62 - saying “this is my post office box, Mrs. M Oswald, Box 2915, Dallas” which is pretty interesting because the FBI reported the box was in the name of “Mrs. Lee H. Oswald” and/or “Oswald’s mother” all the way to the highest levels of government for over 24 hours after the assassination.  

Both Marina and Lee later changed their address with the Embassy to 4907 Magazine St. on 5/15/63 - the same day Oswald filed his “correction” Form 3575 with the Irving Post Office (that was deep-sixed) to forward his mail from Ruth Paine’s house  - and subsequently changed it to P.O. Box 30061, which I think was on June 12th. 

I’m traveling at the moment so don’t have the links handy but the Soviet Embassy COAs are discussed in Parts 2 and 3 of my essay and there are footnotes to the documents if you are interested. 

Great info. Do you have a timeline of all this info laid out? Could be handy to see if any patterns emerge.

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 8/21/2022 at 2:40 AM, Tom Gram said:

The FBI as an organization did know about the P.O. Box, but the Dallas Field Office did not. That’s the official story anyway. The logic is that the Soviet Embassy mail intercept program was too sensitive to share, or something like that. There’s also the cluster**** about the 60-day delay for the New York Field Office to report on Oswald’s April ‘63 letter to the FPCC, which had P.O. Box 2915 as a return address. So FBI Headquarters, the Washington Field Office (WFO ran the intercept program), and New York all supposedly knew about P.O. Box 2915 before Oswald’s move to New Orleans but neither the office of origin for the Oswald case nor the assigned agent had any idea the box existed. It’s quite a mess. 

The scenario you propose here runs into the same problem I mentioned in my last comment. If Myers was really reporting on a change added to the box application, there is no excuse for Hosty not being told about the box itself. Hosty’s failure to figure out Oswald’s Dallas post office box number is the sole reason for his (alleged) failure to track Oswald to New Orleans. There are zero postal records that reflect a mailing address change to 214 Neely St. - so if Myers was reading special delivery instructions off section three of the application why the hell wouldn’t she mention the box? Also, Myers allegedly spoke to Hosty on 3/11/63, literally one day before the purchase of the money order. It’s quite a coincidence. 

Your comment on the failure of postal workers to remember the long package is not exactly what the Postal Inspection Service actually claimed. They said that despite “exhaustive inquiries” they could find no postal worker who remembered handing over a large package to Oswald. They never asked if anyone remembered Marina. Based on the other evidence e.g. several change of address forms that were provably suppressed and the WC’s inexcusable (non)questioning of Marina on this issue - I think it’s very possible, if not likely, that Marina picked up the rifle from the Post Office and may have even been involved in ordering it. 

Despite the fact that Marina could have easily been roped in unwittingly by Oswald (Marina’s involvement in the rifle purchase does not necessarily point to any sort of conspiracy) the WC would not go there under any circumstances. The Dorothea Myers/Neely St. angle is just one of several reasons why the WC’s questioning of Marina on this topic is beyond suspicious. In all her WC appearances, Marina was asked exactly zero questions about P.O. Box 2915 or how Oswald had acquired the rifle; and wasn’t even asked how the Oswalds had received their mail in Dallas. I go over this in detail in my essay. 

Your point about the fake street addresses on box applications gave me a thought. Marina testified that she sent a letter to an old boyfriend with the box as a return address. The letter was returned and Oswald found it and flipped out on her. Perhaps she took steps to avoid a similar incident? The only example of any mail being received at 214 Neely St. is a letter from Ruth Paine to Marina. Marina may have given Ruth the Neely St. address for mail to prevent Oswald from reading her letters - since the mail would have almost always been delivered while Oswald was at work. Could Marina have done the same thing at the Post Office? 

Marina was receiving mail in P.O. Box 2915 until 5/10/63, which is when she changed her address to Ruth Paine’s house. Oswald’s FBI case was not officially reopened until after Hosty sent his 3/25/63 memo to Headquarters, so on 3/11/63, Hosty was technically only investigating Marina. Was she the one who requested that packages addressed to P.O. Box 2915 be delivered to Neely St.?

Tom,

Your suspicions about Marina might have merit:

Our "Oswald" himself denied living on Neely. Both Captain Fritz and FBI agent Manning Clements wrote reports about "Oswald's" residences.

Here is Manning Clements:

History Matters Archive - Warren Report, pg (history-matters.com)

No Neely.

Joechim Joesten even quoted Marguerite Oswald as claiming that Marina lived at Neely with another man!

(I'll post the link once I dig it out later this weekend.)

 

 

[Tom Gram]

21 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Great info. Do you have a timeline of all this info laid out? Could be handy to see if any patterns emerge.

I do have a detailed timeline with flowcharts of all the mail forwarding events for Lee and Marina, but it doesn’t include the peripheral stuff like the Embassy COAs. I’m on vacation and don’t have my computer but I’ll post it later if I can.

That’s a good idea though. I’ll do a full timeline at some point and maybe make it an appendix in an update to my essay. 

[Gerry Down]

45 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I do have a detailed timeline with flowcharts of all the mail forwarding events for Lee and Marina, but it doesn’t include the peripheral stuff like the Embassy COAs. I’m on vacation and don’t have my computer but I’ll post it later if I can.

That’s a good idea though. I’ll do a full timeline at some point and maybe make it an appendix in an update to my essay. 

That would be great. I think everyone on here would like to see your timeline with flow charts.

[Tom Gram]

 

7 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

That would be great. I think everyone on here would like to see your timeline with flow charts.

Here’s the timeline/flowchart. I’m basically in the Arctic with dinky satellite internet but it appears to be working at the moment. 

Oswald Mail Diagram.pdf

[Guest]

Thank you, much appriciated !     

And amazing to see what has been going on in like only 5 months.

Incrible that only 1 parcel ended up in the nixie section,  and Oswald not taking a shot at a single postoffice clerck in the process  So It was probably Marina handling the PO stuff 👀

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

Any Northern lights visible out there in the Artic ??? 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Gerry Down]

13 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

 

Here’s the timeline/flowchart. I’m basically in the Arctic with dinky satellite internet but it appears to be working at the moment. 

Oswald Mail Diagram.pdf 119.87 kB · 4 downloads

Great PDF. It shows just how complicated Oswalds mail rerouting system was. 

 

[Guest]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:16 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Tom,

Your suspicions about Marina might have merit:

Our "Oswald" himself denied living on Neely. Both Captain Fritz and FBI agent Manning Clements wrote reports about "Oswald's" residences.

Here is Manning Clements:

History Matters Archive - Warren Report, pg (history-matters.com)

No Neely.

Joechim Joesten even quoted Marguerite Oswald as claiming that Marina lived at Neely with another man!

(I'll post the link once I dig it out later this weekend.)

 

 

It seems Oswald had used it with the Empl.Comm.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans