IJDECANTER and the Nov 9th Letter

[Gerry Down]

According to IJDECANTER, an effort had been made to recruit Oswald as a KGB agent while in Russia. And as a result, Oswald may have viewed himself in some capacity as a KGB agent when he returned to the U.S.:

 

SOURCE: https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=IJDECANTER&search=IJDECANTER 

 

According to John Newmans new book "Uncovering Popovs Mole" there is now new information backing up this claim. JFK researcher Greg Doudna talked about this is a recent post:

Newman brings out a new document, a debriefing of an instructor in a Soviet counterintelligence school in Minsk from later than the time Oswald was there, reporting on other faculty at that school telling of having handled Oswald and Marina in Minsk. Oswald had been recruited and was an agent claimed by the Ukraine KGB. Marina was not claimed to be an agent but was a "swallow", asked to get into bed with Oswald for information, who then went her own way after coming to the U.S. This debriefing supports the same basic account of Oleg Kalugin, chief of KGB operations in the US in 1963, in Russo and Moses, eds., Where Were You? (2013), who said "Marina was planted just to find information ... Later the KGB made a deal with her that if she came here to the United States--she was recruited; let's put it that way. But she didn't perform the mission. She was actually thrown out of the Russian network of sources--totally useless". The document published in an appendix by Newman in Uncovering Popov's Mole, "The 2/27/90 CIA Report on the Debriefing of IJDECANTER", is fascinating and rings as the true story of Oswald in Minsk. According to the debriefing (also in agreement with Kalugin), Oswald was ultimately deemed unreliable and the Soviets were not in contact with him after his redefection back to the US.

SOURCE: Education Forum thread titled "John Newman's latest on Popov's Mole".

 

If Oswald viewed himself as an agent of the KGB, this would cast the Nov 9th 1963 letter to the USSR embassy in Washington in a new light. Here is that letter for reference:

 

Notice how Oswald starts off the letter "This is to inform you of recent events since my meetings with comrade Kostin in the Embassy Of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico. I was unable to remain in Mexico indefinitely because of my Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only." This is an odd way to start off the letter. One would imagine he would start off the letter by first explaining that he had gone to Mexico, and why he had gone there, and then explain he had met Kostin there. Instead he launches the letter in an overly familiar manner by saying he met with Kostin in Mexico City. The way the letter is written it is almost as if Oswald had told the USSR embassy prior to going to Mexico that he was going to Mexico. 

If Oswald was a KGB agent, then the familiarity in the letter towards the USSR embassy makes more sense. For example Oswald talks about using a fake name while in Mexico, hardly the kind of thing one would admit to when writing to an embassy:

"I could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless I used my real name, so I returned to the United States."

The letter arguably strengthens the idea that Oswald viewed himself as an agent of the KGB, but not smart enough, nor instructed by the KGB, that letters to its USSR embassy could be monitored by the FBI, and thus he should be watching more carefully what he was saying in such a letter to the embassy. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Gerry Down

[Greg Doudna]

Gerry, that is the document in Newman's appendix and which Newman discusses in chapter 3 of Uncovering Popov's Mole. The link you give on the Mary Ferrell site I see from comparison has a slightly fuller form of the CIA debriefing document. Newman's appendix has most of the document but is identified as "relevant excerpts" of it. In chapter 3 Newman gives an extensive back story to how the Papushin information came to light and its context. 

Two details: one is that though according to IJDECANTER, identified in Uncovering Popov's Mole as Sergei Papushin, Oswald was considered an agent by the Ukraine KGB, somewhat anomalously (according to what Papushin heard) Oswald never actually signed paperwork saying he was an agent which was normally done. Nevertheless they considered they were running him as one of their agents despite lack of Oswald's signature saying he was. The other thing according to Papushin's information is the spy agency relationship of Oswald ended in the Soviet Union and did not continue when Oswald returned to the U.S.

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Gerry, that is the document in Newman's appendix and which Newman discusses in chapter 3 of Uncovering Popov's Mole. The link you give on the Mary Ferrell site I see from comparison has a slightly fuller form of the CIA debriefing document. Newman's appendix has most of the document but is identified as "relevant excerpts" of it. In chapter 3 Newman gives an extensive back story to how the Papushin information came to light and its context. 

Two details: one is that though according to IJDECANTER, identified in Uncovering Popov's Mole as Sergei Papushin, Oswald was considered an agent by the Ukraine KGB, somewhat anomalously (according to what Papushin heard) Oswald never actually signed paperwork saying he was an agent which was normally done. Nevertheless they considered they were running him as one of their agents despite lack of Oswald's signature saying he was. The other thing according to Papushin's information is the spy agency relationship of Oswald ended in the Soviet Union and did not continue when Oswald returned to the U.S.

It seems odd that LHO would be run as an agent inside the USSR. Not sure what use he would be to them there. And apparently LHO was not cooperating very well in this regard if he had been an agent of sorts as he made a bomb in his apartment which has traditionally been understood to mean he was trying to make a nuisance of himself to the USSR so they would allow him to leave the country with Marina as quickly as possible.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

It seems odd that LHO would be run as an agent inside the USSR. Not sure what use he would be to them there. And apparently LHO was not cooperating very well in this regard if he had been an agent of sorts as he made a bomb in his apartment which has traditionally been understood to mean he was trying to make a nuisance of himself to the USSR so they would allow him to leave the country with Marina as quickly as possible.

I don't know if he was, but it wouldn't be odd to me.  If he was, he was an agent provocateur.  Talking to people, hearing them out, suggesting stuff, noting reactions, etc.   At factory level, but he was also around the university campus with Ernst, at meetings, etc   Making a connection is the first and often most difficult part.  But in this case, LHO was like a candy stick in a beehive it seems..  I mean, in no time he had a bunch of friends surrounding him and they were going everywhere and talking to everybody, I didn't realize this until I read Titovets book. 

One of the KGB's goals was "combating nationalist, dissident, religious and anti-Soviet activities".

Anyway, it's just a possibility 

A little intriguing note : on the Mexico "Esta Semana" booklet LHO had drawn a little dagger (according Marina).... I have not yet found a good picture of it, anyone ?  If it had any meaning, you don't have to look far to find it.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Gerry Down]

16 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I don't know if he was, but it wouldn't be odd to me.  If he was, he was an agent provocateur.  Talking to people, hearing them out, suggesting stuff, noting reactions, etc.   At factory level, but he was also around the university campus with Ernst, at meetings, etc   Making a connection is the first and often most difficult part.  But in this case, LHO was like a candy stick in a beehive it seems..  I mean, in no time he had a bunch of friends surrounding him and they were going everywhere and talking to everybody, I didn't realize this until I read Titovets book. 

Anyway, it's just a possibility 

 

That sounds quiet plausible. His KGB job would have been to ferret out people harbouring anti-communist sentiment. The only problem there is didn't everyone around LHO know he left the US because he had been disillusioned with capitalism. He would have had to explain why he was in USSR. Unless LHO would pretend he was just a tourist in the USSR and this would cause people harbouring anti-communist sentiments to open up to him thinking he was pro-capitalism.

[Guest]

There are quite a number of occasions where E.Titovets writes about this, even suggestive at times :

p. 170 Oswald conveyed closely the sentiments of many workers towards their "patriotic duty"

p. 166 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

I have been thinking about Titovets' remarks - because he inserts them quite often -  it must have been something that was definitely on his mind

Would the KGB offer LHO a job, a good pay, an apartment,... without asking a "favor" in return ? Don't know... They probably asked him, but did he do it ?

As often with LHO things didn't work as planned, his return to the US was already in his mind when he broke up with Ella German (it didn't take Marina to cause that feeling)

[Gerry Down]

4 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

As often with LHO things didn't work as planned, his return to the US was already in his mind when he broke up with Ella German (it didn't take Marina to cause that feeling)

If I remember correctly, LHO was thinking of going back to the US by late 1960. So I think he was planning on asking Ella German to marry him on new years day 1961 in the expectation that if she said yes, he would bring her back to the US with him. 

[Gerry Down]

5 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

There are quite a number of occasions where E.Titovets writes about this, even suggestive at times :

p. 170 Oswald conveyed closely the sentiments of many workers towards their "patriotic duty"

p. 166 

This is quiet interesting. It potentially backs up IJDECANTER. Must pay close attention to this when reading this book.

[Guest]

Nothing important, but Ernst has put some of his recordings online (starting at about 2:20 of 10:00)

Kinda weird sounding....    http://www.etitovets.com/Recorded _voices.html