The Right erases another JFK Policy

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

The facts are... When it comes to education in America, kids of Asian ancestry dominate. They are not de facto minorities, no far from it. Say there's a step provided so short kids can reach a doorbell. Then a tall kid with short arms comes along and says I'd like to use that step as well, and it's not fair that only short kids can use that step. So he petitions the providers of the step to take away the step. 

Net result: short kids no longer have a step to help them reach the doorbell.  

Now, I would like to see programs designed to help short kids that don't discriminate purely on height. I think that's been the trend for some time. But this idea that Asians as a whole have been wronged by Affirmative Action is just bs. If you go to any major University in the country you'll see that people of Asian ancestry are over-represented compared to their numbers in the general population, by a ratio of 5-1, 10-1, or more. Heck, the last time I visited Berkeley more than half the kids walking down Durant looking for hot Dogs, pizza, and yogurt, were Asian. 

I spent a lot of time in the hospital last year, in an area that's mostly white and hispanic, and less than 5% Asian. And yet roughly half my nurses and doctors were Asian. Remembering the status of nursing a few decades ago, when a large percentage of nurses were brought in from the Philippines, I assumed many of these nurses were not born here or raised here. But in talking to the fifty or so Asian nurses I had in my stay, I found that virtually all of them were born here or raised here. One nurse seemed particularly bright. I said I bet you got straight A's in school. She laughed and said "Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean I'm smart. It means I'm Asian in America." Exactly. It's a cultural thing. Much like Jews becoming accountants, dentists and lawyers is a cultural thing. 

I did not say that Asians "as a whole" have been harmed by AA, but some have. Go read the legal briefs that have been submitted on the case.

I again repeat that even the deep blue states of California, Michigan, and Washington have done away with race-based college admissions, as have several other states. This is not a strictly left-vs.-right issue. Plenty of sensible liberals and moderates see a problem with applying AA in a way that only benefits certain minorities and discriminates against other minorities just because those other minorities tend to do better in school. And, FYI, in the last eight presidential elections, the Asian vote has gone heavily for the Democratic candidate (usually by at least 65% to 35%).

The bottom line is that the case now before the Supreme Court is not some nefarious right-wing attempt to deny certain minorities a chance to attend college, and it is certainly not a right-wing attempt to "erase another JFK policy." I seriously doubt that JFK would view the plaintiffs' case as an attack on his civil rights or education policies.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Pat Speer]

20 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I did not say that Asians "as a whole" have been harmed by AA, but some have. Go read the legal briefs that have been submitted on the case.

I again repeat that even the deep blue states of California, Michigan, and Washington have done away with race-based college admissions, as have several other states. This is not a strictly left-vs.-right issue. Plenty of sensible liberals and moderates see a problem with applying AA in a way that only benefits certain minorities and discriminates against other minorities just because those other minorities tend to do better in school. And, FYI, in the last eight presidential elections, the Asian vote has gone heavily for the Democratic candidate (usually by at least 65% to 35%).

The bottom line is that the case now before the Supreme Court is not some nefarious right-wing attempt to deny certain minorities a chance to attend college, and it is certainly not a right-wing attempt to "erase another JFK policy." I seriously doubt that JFK would view the plaintiffs' case as an attack on his civil rights or education policies.

While I would agree that affirmative action policies should be re-written so they are not based on skin color, I suspect/know the underlying effort is not about this one issue. There is an underbelly of laissez-faire capitalism within this case, and within the MAGA movement as well. The feeling is that everyone should be forced to pull their weight and that no one should be given special treatment. Well, we've seen where this leads. 

[James DiEugenio]

The Asian success story is probably the greatest since the Jews.

I know about it since I have a friend who lives close to Diamond Bar High School, one of the highest rated public high schools in California.

The Asian nuclear family goes as far as to send their kids from China to that school, and they pay families to room and board them.

Its just the opposite of African American families which were wrecked first by slavery, and then shoved aside during segregation, and then placed in ghettoes during the great migration.  And because the schools in those ghettoes were poor, that cycle maintained itself.

One way to cure this problem, I always thought at least, was open enrollment.  That is any student in a district can go to any school he or she wants to and the district has to get him or her there.  I don't think this will occur simply because of the fact that the upper class parents would not allow it.  But in my view, its the cheapest and most efficient way to stop that endless spiral.

[James DiEugenio]

Let em explain how I came to that conclusion.  I have told this story before but its worth repeating for new people.

Many summers ago I was teaching at Westchester High in West LA. I had two 2 hour classes and was out at 12:30, which is why I liked teaching summer school.

One day I had to mail a letter after work, and I drove to the local post office.  As I was traveling through the area I noted that it was a very nice upper middle class neighborhood made up mostly of Asians and whites. This made me curious about the 7-8 African American kids in my second period class.

The next day i asked them where they lived. They said South Central.  I said, "Well, how do you register for this school then?"  They said they rent psot office boxes in the area before the sign up.  I said, "So you break the law?"   They said yes.

I then asked, "But how do you get here each morning then?"  They said they take the Metro. I then asked, "But how many transfers do you make?"  They said three. I then asked, "What time do you wake up in the morning?"  They said 5:30 am.  I then asked, "Why do you go through all of that in the first place?"  They said, because they don't want to go to the schools in their area.

Because of that, we will never know how many African American kids should be at Harvard or Yale, will we?

This is why I advocate open enrollment.  And this is why it will never happen.

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Let em explain how I came to that conclusion.  I have told this story before but its worth repeating for new people.

Many summers ago I was teaching at Westchester High in West LA. I had two 2 hour classes and was out at 12:30, which is why I liked teaching summer school.

One day I had to mail a letter after work, and I drove to the local post office.  As I was traveling through the area I noted that it was a very nice upper middle class neighborhood made up mostly of Asians and whites. This made me curious about the 7-8 African American kids in my second period class.

The next day i asked them where they lived. They said South Central.  I said, "Well, how do you register for this school then?"  They said they rent psot office boxes in the area before the sign up.  I said, "So you break the law?"   They said yes.

I then asked, "But how do you get here each morning then?"  They said they take the Metro. I then asked, "But how many transfers do you make?"  They said three. I then asked, "What time do you wake up in the morning?"  They said 5:30 am.  I then asked, "Why do you go through all of that in the first place?"  They said, because they don't want to go to the schools in their area.

Because of that, we will never know how many African American kids should be at Harvard or Yale, will we?

This is why I advocate open enrollment.  And this is why it will never happen.

 

I went to school in L.A. Unified at a time when it had voluntary busing. I went to Patrick Henry Junior High, in Granada Hills, in the north San Fernando Valley, a suburb of Los Angeles. The community at that time was probably 85% white, 12% hispanic and 2% asian. There was maybe 5 black kids from the area in a school of 1400 locals. But there were another 100 or so black kids who chose to ride a bus an hour from South Central, to receive a superior education. It was a bit awkward. I remember thinking how hard it must have been for these kids to complete their homework, and get a good night's sleep, seeing as they had to leave an hour earlier than the local kids, and got home an hour later. But there were 100 kids willing to do just that.

Many years later, after I'd found a home in the record industry, I was talking with the rapper/actor ice Cube. I asked him about growing up in Compton, a notorious black area near L.A. He told me he'd actually gone to school in the Valley, at Taft High, if I recall. He was one of those kids, who'd been willing to lose 2 hours a day to get a better education. Well, this explained a lot. Ice Cube's raps were always better-written than those of his competition. And this was because he'd had more than street knowledge. The dude had stuck it out in school and had even went to Arizona State for awhile before his rap career took off. 

In any event, these kids had gone to elementary school in their community, and had learned from this that if they wanted to get ahead they would have to go to high school outside their community, and mingle with the suburban kids, and be taught by suburban teachers. 

So I don't see the harm in helping kids like that get into college, even if it's at the expense of kids who have a higher GPA, or higher SAT. The question is how to do this without using race as a factor. I don't know. I do know that I was raised by a single mom supporting four kids on a nurse's income and that this allowed me to get a small grant when I went to CSUN. So maybe that's it. Instead of using race as a factor in college admissions, perhaps they should use hardship as a factor. And this hardship factor could give bonus points for kids who were bused, or who were raised by a single parent, etc. 

I mean, my son goes to a middle school which tracks to a STEAM high school. The students from his school get first crack. It's not based on ability. It's first crack. Period. They could have a waiting list of 500 kids who want into the STEAM high school, and it wouldn't matter. Kids who go to his middle school are guaranteed a spot at the STEAM high school. So...maybe the universities wishing to improve their diversity could start relationships with schools from bad areas, whereby any kid graduating from these schools with a certain GPA and a certain SAT score is guaranteed a spot at their college, if he/she chooses to go to college. This would get rid of the racial component while simultaneously improving diversity. 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

That is really interesting Pat.

I actually subbed at Patrick Henry for a couple of days.  It was considered one of the better junior highs in the valley.  I remember it being mostly caucasian.

Yes, there were a limited amount of kids who were allowed to enroll at other schools in the system.  And those slots were filled up pretty fast as I recall.

What is a STEAM high school?  Never heard of that.

IMO, if AA gets wiped out, it will really hurt.  But it seems this Supreme Court is determined to do just that.  They ignore the fact that the conditions that led to JFK starting it still exist.  Schools are still segregated as much as they were back then.

[Pat Speer]

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is really interesting Pat.

I actually subbed at Patrick Henry for a couple of days.  It was considered one of the better junior highs in the valley.  I remember it being mostly caucasian.

Yes, there were a limited amount of kids who were allowed to enroll at other schools in the system.  And those slots were filled up pretty fast as I recall.

What is a STEAM high school?  Never heard of that.

IMO, if AA gets wiped out, it will really hurt.  But it seems this Supreme Court is determined to do just that.  They ignore the fact that the conditions that led to JFK starting it still exist.  Schools are still segregated as much as they were back then.

STEM schools are schools that focus on Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics. These schools sprung up awhile back as a response to parents wanting public schools with higher academic standards than normal schools, and less focus on athletics and prom etc. They are for serious students only, and the students attending these schools are not required to live in the district. The local STEM high school is Santa Susana High, and many of its students come in from neighboring communities. Santa Su has a science fair every year, and I have noticed a tremendous shift in demographics over the past 10 years. While the science kids used to be mostly white males, they are now more than 50% female, with a large number of Asian and hispanic girls. So I think we are in for a seismic shift, where within 20 years formerly white male jobs like scientist and engineer will become majority female jobs, with many people of color. 

Now, STEAM... A few years back Santa Su added a large performing arts center to its campus. I watched them build the sucker. In any event around the same time I saw that they started calling the school a STEAM Academy--with the A standing for Arts. So now, along with the mopey science and math kids walking past my condo every day, there is a decent smattering of purple or green haired drama kids. But the funny thing is that aside from the hair they all dress the same. They all wear black. Every day. 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Pat.  

Was not aware of that.

That is interesting about the changing demographics.  More female scientists and engineers.

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 11/3/2022 at 1:30 PM, James DiEugenio said:

IMO, if AA gets wiped out, it will really hurt.  But it seems this Supreme Court is determined to do just that.  

This is baseless hyperbole. AA will not be "wiped out" if the Supreme Court rules that AA cannot be applied in a way that benefits some minorities at the expense of other minorities. Equal treatment under the law means just that; it does not mean applying the law so that it favors some minorities at the expense of other minorities. 

If most members of one minority can't get into a special high school because they don't do well on the entrance exam, the answer is not to abolish the entrance exam and replace it with a race-based quota system. 

And I again repeat the point that even the deep blue states of California and Washington have done away with race-based admission criteria. If the liberal governors and legislatures who run those states saw a problem with race-based admissions, one can hardly claim that it would be a "right-wing erasure of another JFK policy" if the Supreme Court rules for the plaintiffs in this case. I would bet good money that JFK would be siding with the plaintiffs if he were alive.