Old Secret Service Reel on the JFKA

[Benjamin Cole]

7 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

DVP- you made an overbroad and sweeping statement on a bullet's capability. The more accurate statement is that it depends on the force of the bullet which is a function of mass, velocity and type (jacketed vs frangible).  

Yes, the bullet plowed through four to five inches of JBC's rib---thus meeting resistance. 

JBC's forward movement is powerful, and that is how he remembered it: 

Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)

JBC in fact refers in his testimony to the 180-degree he made in in his seat, made after the limo comes into view being behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I see no sign of injury to JBC before he struck ~Z295. You can look at the Z-film frame-by frame---I just see no sign of JBC being injured or struck before ~Z295. JBC is bolt upright after re-emerging from behind the sign. 

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

To me, this is the evidence beyond reasonable doubt that a lone gunman, armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle, could not have accomplished the JFKA. Even beyond this, there is the shot that struck near Tague. 

As stated, this does not exonerate LHO. He may have been a witting or unwitting participant in a plot, and I think that is likely. 

LHO's behavior in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA is indicative of knowledge that something is wrong, involving himself. Getting a revolver? Going to watch movies? 

 

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

55 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet.

But we know that a bullet (by itself) cannot do that. So Connally's being "doubled over" was something that had to have occurred AFTER the bullet passed through him. It was Connally himself doing the "doubling over". The bullet itself didn't perform that task. It couldn't have.

[Matthew Koch]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, the bullet plowed through four to five inches of JBC's rib---thus meeting resistance. 

JBC's forward movement is powerful, and that is how he remembered it: 

Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)

JBC in fact refers in his testimony to the 180-degree he made in in his seat, made after the limo comes into view being behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I see no sign of injury to JBC before he struck ~Z295. You can look at the Z-film frame-by frame---I just see no sign of JBC being injured or struck before ~Z295. JBC is bolt upright after re-emerging from behind the sign. 

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

Watch Oliver Stone's shooting sequence then go back and look at reality aka the Zapruder Film. Both Stone and Josiah Thompson had the shot hitting when the reaction happened in JFK and Six Seconds and both are in error. 

The film runs at 18.3 frames a second. Connally is hit at 224 it will take him until 236 to start to react. So that's around six tenths of a second, which seems more than reasonable to react to being shot. The same thing happens with JFK, he is hit behind the sign and it isn't until 223 that he starts to react because each frame is 1/18 a second. 

We learned about the lapel flap sometime in the late 80's or early 90's when failure analysis found the lapel flap. The Warren Commission had them being struck behind the sign and said that Connally had a delayed reaction. Since then Dale Myers and other apologists have said that the WC mostly got it right but that Oswald shot earlier and missed and then had more time to hit them at frame 224. This is also why the debunkers go so hard after the dictabelt because there was a shots earlier that causes Kennedy to flinch. This is all on the dictabelt and not only is it on the dicatbelt it also lines up the the blurs from Zapruder flinching at the sounds of gun shots. It all lines up; The Film, the dictabelt, the witness statements and the blur analysis. If you need a good witness statement SM Hollands lines up best with the reactions and he doesn't have Connally being shot at 295. In Mrs Newman's interview on tv, she mentions Kennedy being shot and she thought he was playing a joke until right afterwards she heard another pop and Connally reacted and grabbed his stomach.

What you are describing at 295 is Nellie pulling him backwards. Dr Shaw cites this in Beyond Reasonable Doubt documentary when he makes the case that Connally reacted instantly and says both John and Nellie remember him reacting immediately after being shot. 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Benjamin Cole]

27 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But we know that a bullet (by itself) cannot do that. So Connally's being "doubled over" was something that had to have occurred AFTER the bullet passed through him. It was Connally himself doing the "doubling over". The bullet itself didn't perform that task. It couldn't have.

To exaggerate to make a pojnt: If a highly frangible bullet strikes a thick skull, then the skull will be pushed forward. 

If a jacketed bullet hits only flesh in an arm, then little will happen. 

In the JBC shooting, we know a bullet (likely jacketed) struck him from behind, and traveled along four to five inches of rib, thus meeting with resistance during that time.  The bullet pushed JBC forward. 

Add on: JBC's wound through the dorsal (wristwatch) side of his wrist is also curious. Dr Shaw wondered how that wound was received. Try holding the dorsal side of your wrist to your chest. 

 

Try 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

13 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Watch Oliver Stone's shooting sequence then go back and look at reality aka the Zapruder Film. Both Stone and Josiah Thompson had the shot hitting when the reaction happened in JFK and Six Seconds and both are in error. 

The film runs at 18.3 frames a second. Connally is hit at 224 it will take him until 236 to start to react. So that's around six tenths of a second, which seems more than reasonable to react to being shot. The same thing happens with JFK, he is hit behind the sign and it isn't until 223 that he starts to react because each frame is 1/18 a second. 

We learned about the lapel flap sometime in the late 80's or early 90's when failure analysis found the lapel flap. The Warren Commission had them being struck behind the sign and said that Connally had a delayed reaction. Since then Dale Myers and other apologists have said that the WC mostly got it right but that Oswald shot earlier and missed and then had more time to hit them at frame 224. This is also why the debunkers go so hard after the dictabelt because there was a shots earlier that causes Kennedy to flinch. This is all on the dictabelt and not only is it on the dicatbelt it also lines up the the blurs from Zapruder flinching at the sounds of gun shots. It all lines up; The Film, the dictabelt, the witness statements and the blur analysis. If you need a good witness statement SM Hollands lines up best with the reactions and he doesn't have Connally being shot at 295. In Mrs Newman's interview on tv, she mentions Kennedy being shot and she thought he was playing a joke until right afterwards she heard another pop and Connally reacted and grabbed his stomach.

What you are describing at 295 is Nellie pulling him backwards. Dr Shaw cites this in Beyond Reasonable Doubt documentary when he makes the case that Connally reacted instantly and says both John and Nellie remember him reacting immediately after being shot. 

 

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

JBC doing a 180-degree turn in his seat after being shot through the chest (and a fractured wrist etc) does not hold water for me. 

I believe JBC's and his wife's testimony is essentially correct. First shot hit JFK. Second shot hit JBC, and very quick the third shot hit JFK. There may have been other shots, and inaudible shots. 

JBC testified to the WC the shots were entering the limo as if fired by "an automatic rifle." 

JBC was a hunter, familiar with single-shot bolt action rifles. By making that statement to the WC...he was saying something. 

There is quite a bit of difference in rapidity of fire between an automatic rifle and a single-shot bolt-action rifle. 

 

[Matthew Koch]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

JBC doing a 180-degree turn in his seat after being shot through the chest (and a fractured wrist etc) does not hold water for me. 

I believe JBC's and his wife's testimony is essentially correct. First shot hit JFK. Second shot hit JBC, and very quick the third shot hit JFK. There may have been other shots, and inaudible shots. 

JBC testified to the WC the shots were entering the limo as if fired by "an automatic rifle." 

JBC was a hunter, familiar with single-shot bolt action rifles. By making that statement to the WC...he was saying something. 

There is quite a bit of difference in rapidity of fire between an automatic rifle and a single-shot bolt-action rifle. 

 

I guess we will... since you didn't cite anything.. and I don't know what any of what you just wrote has to do with anything with Connally's reaction.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Benjamin Cole]

37 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

I guess we will... since you didn't cite anything.. and I don't know what any of what you just wrote has to do with anything with Connally's reaction.

Ok, here is the Z film, frame by frame

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

See, for example, 

JBC is looking towards the rear of the vehicle. After being shot through the chest? This is Z282. 

JBC testimony WC:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0069a.htm

and at the HSCA:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0008a.htm

JBC said what he said. The Z film bears him out IMHO. JBC's wife concurs. Seems solid to me. 

I understand others have other viewpoints. Well, so it goes....

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JBC is looking towards the rear of the vehicle. After being shot through the chest?

Absolutely. No doubt about it (IMO).

And why you think such a turn by Connally would have been impossible is beyond me.

Your scenario has JBC being shot only AFTER the head shot to Kennedy, which is totally absurd. One reason being: JBC always said he heard the third (head) shot and felt the effects from that shot only AFTER he himself had been shot.

https://drive.google.com/video-file/The Zapruder Film

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Absolutely. No doubt about it (IMO).

And why you think such a turn by Connally would have been impossible is beyond me.

Your scenario has JBC being shot only AFTER the head shot to Kennedy, which is totally absurd. One reason being: JBC always said he heard the third (head) shot and felt the effects from that shot only AFTER he himself had been shot.

https://drive.google.com/video-file/The Zapruder Film

 

No...it looks close, but JBC gets shot before JFK. IMHO. 

Granted JBC's body flops forward almost simultaneously. I do not know if the limo breaking played a role. 

Yes, I do not know how a man (JBC) shot through the chest, would then turn around to check on JFK. I think he had overwhelming problems of his own.

Just IMHO....

[Matthew Koch]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ok, here is the Z film, frame by frame

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/

See, for example, 

JBC is looking towards the rear of the vehicle. After being shot through the chest? This is Z282. 

JBC testimony WC:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0069a.htm

and at the HSCA:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0008a.htm

JBC said what he said. The Z film bears him out IMHO. JBC's wife concurs. Seems solid to me. 

I understand others have other viewpoints. Well, so it goes....

 

 

 

You are incorrect about this just like you were incorrect about the Secret Service in the reactment because you haven't read enough books. 

 

 

At the 15 minuet mark, Conally's Doctor watch it. 

 

If you want I will find SMHollad and Mrs Newman to show you are wrong 

[Benjamin Cole]

11 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

You are incorrect about this just like you were incorrect about the Secret Service in the reactment because you haven't read enough books. 

 

 

At the 15 minuet mark, Conally's Doctor watch it. 

 

If you want I will find SMHollad and Mrs Newman to show you are wrong 

I disagree with the analysis herein. I do not think JBC did a 180-degree turn in seat after being shot through the chest. And I think JBC is roughly right when he testified he was pushed forward by the bullet that struck him. 

Just IMHO....

[David Von Pein]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And I think JBC is roughly right when he testified he was pushed forward by the bullet that struck him.

Even though you (should) know by now that such a thing is impossible.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

12 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Even though you (should) know by now that such a thing is impossible.

 

I don't know why you say that. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. Bullets striking bodies might, or might not push bodies back, depending on circumstance. 

JBC testified he heard the first shot, then (uninjured) turned around to look for JFK. His wife corroborates. They sensed something had happened to JFK. The Z-film shows JFK fists at his throat. 

Unable to see JFK, JBC turned to face forward, and then he remembers being struck and pushed forward. 

The Z-film largely corroborates JBC's testimony. It may be the limo breaking coincided with a bullet striking JBC. But since the bullet coursing through JBC took out four to five inches of rib, it was imparting kinetic energy. 

If you shoot a bullet at a thick plank of unanchored oak, it will knock the oak over. The oak will fall back. If you shoot a bullet into a very large bag of jello...almost nothing will happen.

JBC is somewhere in between. 

That is my take. JBC just does not look injured as JFK and JBC emerge from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, although JFK does look injured. 

Just IMHO....