Gerry Down Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 What I'm suggesting is that Ryder did indeed put the scope on for LHO on perhaps Nov 11th but that no ticket at all was made out at that time, because as you say it was a cash job. Then when the fbi call to Ryder's house on Mon Nov 25th and they both go to the Irving sports shop, Ryder quietly manufactures the ticket then behind the FBIs back and presents it to them in the shop as though it had been made out way back on Nov 11th. The reason Ryder manufactured the ticket like this was to conceal the fact it had been a cash job. And because Ryder is manufacturing the ticket now, he accidentally puts down that he drilled three holes instead of two. Is there any ticket number on the job ticket which would prove that the ticket was made out on Nov 11th rather than as I suggest on Nov 25th? If there were ticket numbers on the Irving sports shop tickets then it would have been much harder for Ryder to fake a job ticket on Nov 25th as the ticket number would give away the fact it was a new ticket and not an old one from say two weeks previous on Nov 11th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 18 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: What I'm suggesting is that Ryder did indeed put the scope on for LHO on perhaps Nov 11th but that no ticket at all was made out at that time, because as you say it was a cash job. Then when the fbi call to Ryder's house on Mon Nov 25th and they both go to the Irving sports shop, Ryder quietly manufactures the ticket then behind the FBIs back and presents it to them in the shop as though it had been made out way back on Nov 11th. The reason Ryder manufactured the ticket like this was to conceal the fact it had been a cash job. And because Ryder is manufacturing the ticket now, he accidentally puts down that he drilled three holes instead of two. Is there any ticket number on the job ticket which would prove that the ticket was made out on Nov 11th rather than as I suggest on Nov 25th? If there were ticket numbers on the Irving sports shop tickets then it would have been much harder for Ryder to fake a job ticket on Nov 25th as the ticket number would give away the fact it was a new ticket and not an old one from say two weeks previous on Nov 11th. Interesting suggestion Gerry. No the ticket numbers do not falsify the suggestion, based on Greener's explanation. Although the tickets were numbered the numbering was meaningless for dating any ticket said Greener because the tickets were mixed haphazardly and any random one grabbed for use, without attention to numbering. So by your proposal, Ryder did a cash job with no paperwork, somehow (via someone he told or Oswald told) it leaks via one or more hearsay transmissions to the anonymous caller of Nov 24 who told the FBI that Oswald had a rifle sighted-in at the Irving Sport Shop. Ryder answers his front door Monday morning Nov 25 to find a friendly visit from his local neighborhood FBI asking him about it, freaks him out, he says I'll show you the job ticket over at the shop and he quickly makes one out on the way over. An objection is an average person might fear to lie to the FBI that way (making up a job ticket). Get caught making up a story to the FBI, serious business. Incentive to be straight with it. If caught doing a cash job it would probably not be the end of the world, unlikely Ryder, a 6-year high-producer employee would lose his job over it. The downside of risk of lying to the FBI would outweigh the possible embarrassment of Greener finding out about a cash job or two done while he had been gone. I would think that is how a normal person might make that instant calculation. FBI agent Horton might agree with you though. According to one of the documents Horton was reported as believing that if they could get Ryder in a polygraph situation Ryder would crack and admit he fabricated the job ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Different people would view the situation differently. Personally I think the pressure of the FBI showing up at his door could easily make Ryder engage in what some would perceive to be a white lie of creating a ticket after the fact for a job Ryder was certain he had done. I wonder that if Ryder did create the ticket on Nov 25th, did he genuinely remember the name of "Oswald" on his own or was he simply placing that name on the ticket because he now knew the name because of the assassination. This is where forum polls would be interesting because I bet a fair few people on here would think it ok to fabricate a ticket after the fact on Mon nov 25th for a job they are certain they had done, due to the pressure of the fbi now on the scene and asking questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 I wonder if dates were usually placed on tickets in the Irving sports shop. Do we have a selection of other tickets to compare with to see if the date was placed on any of those tickets? You could imagine if Ryder was making up the ticket on the spot on Mon Nov 25th, he would be reluctant to put an actual date on it as he would not be sure himself what date it had been that Oswald had come in to the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Also of course the mount has more than 2 screws on it. Could Ryder have redrilled one of the screws which held the scope itself to the mount? This might explain why there were 3 screws drilled - 2 attaching the mount to the rifle and 1 faulty screw fixed attaching the scope to the mount. Here is a reproduction version of Oswalds rifle. There are 6 screws in total on the mount in various locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 4 hours ago, Gerry Down said: I wonder if dates were usually placed on tickets in the Irving sports shop. Do we have a selection of other tickets to compare with to see if the date was placed on any of those tickets? You could imagine if Ryder was making up the ticket on the spot on Mon Nov 25th, he would be reluctant to put an actual date on it as he would not be sure himself what date it had been that Oswald had come in to the shop. No photos of other tickets. Unlike matters of the numbering on the job ticket, the stub not being torn off, and so little customer information written, I do not recall the documents indicating an issue of the no date on the job ticket compared to other tags, not clear why that wasn't asked as a question. Of course if the job ticket was done on the spot on Nov 11 while Oswald waited that accounts for the no date, the lack of customer information, and the no stub torn off (Greener gave a different explanation for the no stub torn off claiming that was normal most of the time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted January 31, 2023 Author Share Posted January 31, 2023 4 hours ago, Gerry Down said: Also of course the mount has more than 2 screws on it. Could Ryder have redrilled one of the screws which held the scope itself to the mount? This might explain why there were 3 screws drilled - 2 attaching the mount to the rifle and 1 faulty screw fixed attaching the scope to the mount. Here is a reproduction version of Oswalds rifle. There are 6 screws in total on the mount in various locations. It was simple choice that Klein's originally drilled and tapped for two of the three holes on the original 4-hole base mount cut down to have only 3; all 3 could have been done just as easily but at Klein's it was decided 2 would suffice so why bother (do only the minimum to crank those jobs out). Below is a photo I found of a Mannlicher-Carcano which had the same base mount with 4 holes not cut down to 3, and all 4 have screws in them, all 4 drilled and used. This is just background to say if Oswald walked in to the Irving Sport Shop on Veterans Day Nov 11 with scope and base mount in hand but not the rifle which is still in the car, and he asks Dial Ryder behind the counter working alone in the store that day what it would cost to have that scope put on a rifle, Dial Ryder might look at the 3 holes in the base mount and assume 3 drills and taps would be done, not realizing at that point that two previous holes had been drilled in the rifle or that the rifle had had a scope on it before. Ryder sees 3, thinks 3 virgin drill-and-taps, quotes for 3 @1.50, adds 1.50 for boresighting, quotes Oswald $6.00 total for putting the scope on and sighting. Then as Oswald walks out to the car to get the rifle Ryder writes up the job ticket before he forgets the numbers he quoted. Oswald returns with the rifle which already has two holes stripped which Ryder fixes with two rethreadings and base tap and fresh screws of the same size, no drillings done, then boresights it. Oswald pays $6.00 the charge he'd been told and to which he agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 (edited) On 1/31/2023 at 2:39 PM, Gerry Down said: Also of course the mount has more than 2 screws on it. Could Ryder have redrilled one of the screws which held the scope itself to the mount? This might explain why there were 3 screws drilled - 2 attaching the mount to the rifle and 1 faulty screw fixed attaching the scope to the mount. Here is a reproduction version of Oswalds rifle. There are 6 screws in total on the mount in various locations. Is that another repro from somewhere ? Not CE 542 ? Because I compared CE 139 and CE 542 (the one ordered at Klein's to compare the screws), but now I see yours has the 4 top screws not centered. No problem, found it But I did find it odd that CE 542 had the same type of sling as well... I had read it was a home-made thing (from a revolver holster etc), but apparently it came from Klein's like that (or somemade had made one... again... ) ??? Edited February 10, 2023 by Jean Paul Ceulemans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Directly beneath the point on the receiver where the scope mount attaches to the rifle is the bolt, which must slide and twist to load and eject a cartridge. IF one of the holes is drilled through the receiver, the working of the bolt might cause a slightly-too-long screw to loosen at the mount. Thread locking chemicals, such as today's Loctite products, weren't around, to my knowledge, in 1963. In fact, at that time it would have been common for a gunsmith to place a dab of clear lacquer [such as fingernail polish] on the head of a screw and the adjoining surface [in this case, the scope mounting bracket] to try to keep the screw from backing out...if they were aware that this had been a previous problem. [My dad mounted a red dot scope on the receiver of Browning Auto-5 shotgun in the '60s, and the gas-powered action of the bolt caused the screws he drilled and tapped to loosen to the point that the red dot scope couldn't be used accurately. Therefore, I know that such a problem is possible.] The screw holes could be tapped to a slightly larger diameter, but the availability of a screw in the proper length in the larger diameter might pose a problem. Or it might not. Going from a #6-32 to a #8-32 screw, for example. The #6 and #8 refer to the diameter of the screw, and the -32 is the number of threads per inch [in this case, 32.] A minimal length #8-32 screw might be a couple millimeters longer than the minimal #6-32 screw. But those numbers are simply examples. For example, in the McMaster-Carr online catalog, their shortest #6-32 round headed slotted screws, of the type used on the Carcano, is 1/8" long. The shortest #8-32 screw of the same type is 3/16" long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 On 1/31/2023 at 9:02 PM, Mark Knight said: Directly beneath the point on the receiver where the scope mount attaches to the rifle is the bolt, which must slide and twist to load and eject a cartridge. IF one of the holes is drilled through the receiver, the working of the bolt might cause a slightly-too-long screw to loosen at the mount. Thread locking chemicals, such as today's Loctite products, weren't around, to my knowledge, in 1963. In fact, at that time it would have been common for a gunsmith to place a dab of clear lacquer [such as fingernail polish] on the head of a screw and the adjoining surface [in this case, the scope mounting bracket] to try to keep the screw from backing out...if they were aware that this had been a previous problem. [My dad mounted a red dot scope on the receiver of Browning Auto-5 shotgun in the '60s, and the gas-powered action of the bolt caused the screws he drilled and tapped to loosen to the point that the red dot scope couldn't be used accurately. Therefore, I know that such a problem is possible.] The screw holes could be tapped to a slightly larger diameter, but the availability of a screw in the proper length in the larger diameter might pose a problem. Or it might not. Going from a #6-32 to a #8-32 screw, for example. The #6 and #8 refer to the diameter of the screw, and the -32 is the number of threads per inch [in this case, 32.] A minimal length #8-32 screw might be a couple millimeters longer than the minimal #6-32 screw. But those numbers are simply examples. For example, in the McMaster-Carr online catalog, their shortest #6-32 round headed slotted screws, of the type used on the Carcano, is 1/8" long. The shortest #8-32 screw of the same type is 3/16" long. I'd imagine though that a professional gunsmith could simply cut screws that were too long. This way they wouldnt come through to the inside of the barrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 (edited) On 1/30/2023 at 10:29 PM, Greg Doudna said: Anonymous calls to WFAA-TV Sun PM Nov 24 and to the FBI that evening Nov 24, saying Oswald had had a rifle sighted-in at the Irving Sport Shop the day before the assassination (Nov 21). That was what caused the FBI to go to Irving Monday morning and find the Sport Shop (closed Mon from the assassination), try to find owner Greener (couldn't reach him, out of town), then knock on the door at home of Dial Ryder. It's long been a mystery the source of the information of the anonymous caller to WFAA-TV and the FBI. It seems not to be a good-citizen motivation from e.g. Ryder's wife tells someone who tells someone who tells someone... because that would account for the FBI call but not WFAA-TV. It is someone who wants to have Oswald incriminated not just by law enforcement (FBI taking over the investigation of the assassination) but in shaping of public opinion (WFAA-TV). Rather than Dial Ryder as the source for the anonymous caller's information could the source be Oswald himself, telling a buyer of the rifle that the rifle was just sighted? There is no evidence the rifle went back into Ruth Paine's garage after it was taken out of that garage the morning of Nov 11, and the only thing that makes sense of Oswald spending money to get the scope put back on a rifle he was not using and that Marina did not like him having, would be to ready it so it could be sold. All that needs to be supposed is Oswald succeeded in that intention (though unknown who or how). The buyer is connected to the people who did the assassination who pin it on Oswald by means of getting the rifle from him and the rifle connection (Pat Speer's and Flip deMay's idea on this last point). Ryder says he never told anyone of the job ticket. The FBI found him, he didn't go to the FBI. He never went to a reporter. He didn't even tell his boss. It got into the news via local reporter Hunter Schmidt who said he got a tip from someone around the Dallas Police station (where WFAA-TV passed on the anonymous caller tip after they had received it). I cannot see any plausible scenario of Dial Ryder making up the story which caused him only grief. A random hard-working guy who got zapped by an accident of history. I’m not sure this is relevant, and you might know about this, but a clairvoyant gun nut from Ohio named Dwayne Creviston made an anonymous call to the FBI on Nov. 23rd and said he recognized the rifle shown on TV as a MC sold by Klein’s Sporting Goods. Creviston called back around noon on Sunday, gave his name, and suggested that the FBI check gun shops around Dallas to see if Oswald recently had the rifle “zeroed in”, since that would show premeditation. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=202 I just thought it was kind of interesting since the Irving Sports Shop story popped up just a few hours later. Edited February 4, 2023 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 12 hours ago, Tom Gram said: I’m not sure this is relevant, and you might know about this, but a clairvoyant gun nut from Ohio named Dwayne Creviston made an anonymous call to the FBI on Nov. 23rd and said he recognized the rifle shown on TV as a MC sold by Klein’s Sporting Goods. Creviston called back around noon on Sunday, gave his name, and suggested that the FBI check gun shops around Dallas to see if Oswald recently had the rifle “zeroed in”, since that would show premeditation. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=202 I just thought it was kind of interesting since the Irving Sports Shop story popped up just a few hours later. Well he doesn't say "gun shops". Different state, non-specific generic advice to check for zeroing in, but is the same afternoon as the anonymous calls in Dallas. But its a true name (at least the person by that name was a real person in Dayton). On the other hand, this Dayton caller was anonymous the day before, and how would one know the Dayton caller the next day was the real person by the name given. Thanks Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 23 hours ago, Tom Gram said: I’m not sure this is relevant, and you might know about this, but a clairvoyant gun nut from Ohio named Dwayne Creviston made an anonymous call to the FBI on Nov. 23rd and said he recognized the rifle shown on TV as a MC sold by Klein’s Sporting Goods. Creviston called back around noon on Sunday, gave his name, and suggested that the FBI check gun shops around Dallas to see if Oswald recently had the rifle “zeroed in”, since that would show premeditation. Update, Tom: the Mary Ferrell Foundation website has a quote from a Nov 24 UPI wire service news story with this excerpt which verifies the Duane Creviston story is legit and was the source; does not look related to the anonymous calls in Dallas. "Pharmacist Says He Gave F.B.I. a Tip on the Rifle. DAYTON, OHIO, Nov. 24 (UPI). Duane Creviston, local pharmacist, said today that he had recognized the rifle used to kill President Kennedy as the same type he had seen in a catalogue advertisement and that ... Creviston said that he immediately recognized the rifle when he caught a glimpse of it on television Friday night. He said that he understood his tip to the F.B.I. had led them to the source of the rifle..." (https://www.maryferrell.org/search.html?q=creviston). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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