G. Robert Blakey Debates Howard Willens: HSCA vs. WC

[Benjamin Cole]

11 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think we can all agree that the cover-up clearly was not a Mafia operation. The Mafia may have silenced some of the witnesses, either on their own or at the request of their intelligence liaisons, but the Mafia could not have chosen the autopsy doctors, influenced the conduct of the autopsy, altered and suppressed medical evidence, suppressed evidence of an extra bullet found in the limo, etc.

Verily...but also the whole pre-JFKA LHO biography build. Way beyond the ken of the Mob. 

IMHO, the Mob at most provided a couple of gunsels in DP at CIA instigation, and maybe not even.

Would not the CIA like a cut-out between it and the JFKA? And it had to be the intel-state that convinced LHO to participate, even if passively. 

But that does not really make it a mob hit, if the CIA was the instigator. 

 

[Charles Blackmon]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

IMHO, the Mob at most provided a couple of gunsels in DP at CIA instigation, and maybe not even.

Would not the CIA like a cut-out between it and the JFKA? And it had to be the intel-state that convinced LHO to participate, even if passively. 

But that does not really make it a mob hit, if the CIA was the instigator. 

 

What about Jack Ruby? He was very much mob-connected. There are those phone records of him making calls to his mob connections pre-JFKA. Why would the mob want to silence Oswald?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Charles Blackmon

[Benjamin Cole]

11 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

What about Jack Ruby? He was very much mob-connected. There are those phone records of him making calls to hi mob connections pre-JFKA. Why would the mob want to silence Oswald?

Verily, after the JFKA, LHO had to be silenced. 

If ever there was a mob hit, it was Ruby in his thick-set body, suit and fedora, gunning LHO. 

But again, was the mob just a hireling? 

As the great Mickey Spillane said, "It is not who fired the gun, but who paid for the bullet." 

[Charles Blackmon]

9 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Verily, after the JFKA, LHO had to be silenced. 

If ever there was a mob hit, it was Ruby in his thick-set body, suit and fedora, gunning LHO. 

But again, was the mob just a hireling? 

As the great Mickey Spillane said, "It is not who fired the gun, but who paid for the bullet." 

Not aware of any financial records that might show Ruby earning some kind of windfall. Or did the higher-ups get paid for what Ruby did? Did the higher-ups have something on Ruby?

[Michael Griffith]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Verily...but also the whole pre-JFKA LHO biography build. Way beyond the ken of the Mob. 

IMHO, the Mob at most provided a couple of gunsels in DP at CIA instigation, and maybe not even.

Would not the CIA like a cut-out between it and the JFKA? And it had to be the intel-state that convinced LHO to participate, even if passively. 

But that does not really make it a mob hit, if the CIA was the instigator. 

Except that Marcello revealed to an FBI informant that he played a key role in the assassination, and that Trafficante revealed, at the very least, foreknowledge of the hit. Plus, there is Jack Ruby, who essentially worked for Marcello. There is also David Ferrie, who was closely linked with Marcello. And, the Mafia and the CIA both ardently wanted Castro removed from power. 

We broadly agree that CIA and Mafia elements were involved in the assassination. We just disagree about the particulars of what that involvement looked like. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Not aware of any financial records that might show Ruby earning some kind of windfall. Or did the higher-ups get paid for what Ruby did? Did the higher-ups have something on Ruby?

The CIA and Mob, as we know, were intertwined on Cuba, in a symbiotic relationship. 

Not sure there would be a cash payment to Ruby (although evidently he came into some cash about that time). 

The payment was more along the line of the CIA would help the Mob if possible.

Blakey noted that federal investigations into the mob in certain jurisdictions halted as soon as LBJ took power. 

Perhaps the CIA could provide cover for Mob drug-running. 

Ruby was given an instruction. He had a sister in town. 

I doubt Ruby knew anything other than he was told to hit LHO. 

 

[Charles Blackmon]

The mob would rub out Ruby's sister if he balked at taking out Oswald? I mean, it sounds like great movie material but is it "real"? Sure would be nice if somebody talked but they are almost all gone now.

[Benjamin Cole]

8 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Except that Marcello revealed to an FBI informant that he played a key role in the assassination, and that Trafficante revealed, at the very least, foreknowledge of the hit. Plus, there is Jack Ruby, who essentially worked for Marcello. There is also David Ferrie, who was closely linked with Marcello. And, the Mafia and the CIA both ardently wanted Castro removed from power. 

We broadly agree that CIA and Mafia elements were involved in the assassination. We just disagree about the particulars of what that involvement looked like. 

 

Verily. 

Marcello and jailhouse bluster...or truth? Who knows?  

But if the Mob and CIA were working together, that makes the CIA the senior partner.

The CIA has much vaster resources, ability to wiretap, control or delude other police agencies behind a scrim of "national security."  Even the ability to utilize other elements of the US military or government. Have passports issued pronto, or fake Secret Service badges made. 

in contrast, the Mob had some gunsels. 

Could Marcello induce LHO to play an unwitting role in the JFKA? Perhaps by blandishing money? Maybe.

My guess is still JMWAVE-Cuban exiles. 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

The mob would rub out Ruby's sister if he balked at taking out Oswald? I mean, it sounds like great movie material but is it "real"? Sure would be nice if somebody talked but they are almost all gone now.

Yeah, and maybe break his little dog's paws too. 

My guess is the Mob doesn't have to issue a threat like that. Maybe Ruby knew it was curtains for him if he did not murder LHO, and if he did, then maybe a he could get off one way or another in court, and be free in a few years.  

Now that I think of it, I guess Ruby never got a chance to  post bail. Then he died suddenly in prison. 

 

[Michael Griffith]

17 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Verily. 

Marcello and jailhouse bluster...or truth? Who knows?  

But if the Mob and CIA were working together, that makes the CIA the senior partner.

The CIA has much vaster resources, ability to wiretap, control or delude other police agencies behind a scrim of "national security."  Even the ability to utilize other elements of the US military or government. Have passports issued pronto, or fake Secret Service badges made. 

in contrast, the Mob had some gunsels. 

Could Marcello induce LHO to play an unwitting role in the JFKA? Perhaps by blandishing money? Maybe.

My guess is still JMWAVE-Cuban exiles. 

Marcello uttered one of his admissions to a nurse in a circumstance that suggested no bragging was involved. The guy who was arrested for acting suspiciously while coming out of the Dal-Tex Building, Eugene Hale Brading, was a Mafia guy, and both Brading and Ruby visited the building that housed the offices of the Hunt brothers on 11/21/63. Brading's traveling companion to Dallas was Morgan Brown, another Mafia guy. Rose Cheramie said that the two men who dumped her on the road after telling her about JFK's upcoming assassination were Mafia guys. 

OTOH, I do agree that the LHO biography build was a CIA op. The impersonation of Oswald in Mexico City was obviously a CIA op. The Silvia Odio incident proves that CIA-backed anti-Castro Cubans were involved in the biography build. The post-assassination attempts to use Oswald's pro-Castro posturing to provoke an invasion of Cuba came from the CIA. The CIA's fingerprints are all over the editing of the Zapruder film, as we now know. 

But some key actions did not involve the CIA. The suspiciously timely removal of Oswald's name from the FBI's security watch list was the FBI's doing. The stripping of presidential security in Dallas was done by the Secret Service. The Secret Service was aware of the altering of some of the medical evidence and was involved in facilitating the alteration of the Zapruder film. The Secret Service bullied the Dallas coroner and illegally took the body before an autopsy could be performed.  Some FBI agents falsified witness interview reports. The DPD suppressed evidence and knowingly allowed Ruby to shoot Oswald. Etc., etc. etc.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Marcello uttered one of his admissions to a nurse in a circumstance that suggested no bragging was involved. The guy who was arrested for acting suspiciously while coming out of the Dal-Tex Building, Eugene Hale Brading, was a Mafia guy, and both Brading and Ruby visited the building that housed the offices of the Hunt brothers on 11/21/63. Brading's traveling companion to Dallas was Morgan Brown, another Mafia guy. Rose Cheramie said that the two men who dumped her on the road after telling her about JFK's upcoming assassination were Mafia guys. 

OTOH, I do agree that the LHO biography build was a CIA op. The impersonation of Oswald in Mexico City was obviously a CIA op. The Silvia Odio incident proves that CIA-backed anti-Castro Cubans were involved in the biography build. The post-assassination attempts to use Oswald's pro-Castro posturing to provoke an invasion of Cuba came from the CIA. The CIA's fingerprints are all over the editing of the Zapruder film, as we now know. 

But some key actions did not involve the CIA. The suspiciously timely removal of Oswald's name from the FBI's security watch list was the FBI's doing. The stripping of presidential security in Dallas was done by the Secret Service. The Secret Service was aware of the altering of some of the medical evidence and was involved in facilitating the alteration of the Zapruder film. The Secret Service bullied the Dallas coroner and illegally took the body before an autopsy could be performed.  Some FBI agents falsified witness interview reports. The DPD suppressed evidence and knowingly allowed Ruby to shoot Oswald. Etc., etc. etc.

Verily. 

We disagree on some events or issues...but so it goes. 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

OTOH, I do agree that the LHO biography build was a CIA op. The impersonation of Oswald in Mexico City was obviously a CIA op. The Silvia Odio incident proves that CIA-backed anti-Castro Cubans were involved in the biography build.

 

Michael,

Some of the bio-building painted Oswald as PRO-Castro (e.g. the FPCC pamphleting) while other bio-building painted him as ANTI-Castro (e.g. the Odio incident). Do you have any thoughts on why the CIA did that?

I happen to believe (currently) that the purpose of the assassination -- besides eliminating traitorous JFK -- was to create a pretext to attack Cuba, so as to prevent communism from spreading to Latin American countries.* So for my theory, the pro-Castro bio-building makes sense. But the anti-Castro bio-building doesn't.

 

*(If you're wondering what makes me be so specific as to say that the pretext was against the spread of communism in Latin America, it's because I believe that the blond Oswald imposter was meant to make American investigators believe that Nikolai Leonov was involved in the plot. As you may know, Leonov's photo was one of those sent from Mexico City to Hoover. And as you may know, Leonov was a TARBRUSH target, designed to make it look like he was in charge of spreading communism throughout Latin America.)

 

[Michael Griffith]

43 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Michael,

Some of the bio-building painted Oswald as PRO-Castro (e.g. the FPCC pamphleting) while other bio-building painted him as ANTI-Castro (e.g. the Odio incident). Do you have any thoughts on why the CIA did that?

I happen to believe (currently) that the purpose of the assassination -- besides eliminating traitorous JFK -- was to create a pretext to attack Cuba, so as to prevent communism from spreading to Latin American countries.* So for my theory, the pro-Castro bio-building makes sense. But the anti-Castro bio-building doesn't.

One thought is that if this issue reached a point where it had to be confronted, they could have said that Oswald was occasionally hanging around anti-Castro Cubans because he was trying to penetrate the anti-Castro movement to find out what he could about it, but that his real sympathies were for Castro and his Marxist regime. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Michael Griffith