Do photos show Felipe Vidal Santiago as the Dark-Complected Man? And Roy Hargraves as the Umbrella Man?

[Cliff Varnell]

9 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

You are a complete and utter time-waster, on this and other threads. 

That's odd, you agreed with me on other threads about Harriman's responsibility for Vietnam and Golden Triangle interests taking down the Corsican Mafia.  I may have been the only poster here who gave you the time of day on your Moynihan-as-Deep Throat riff.  I asked for a point of clarification on psych drug experiments under the Harriman Administration in the late 50's.  Yes, all that material you posted in response to me must have been a waste of time.  Good to know.  

[Matt Cloud]

15 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That's odd, you agreed with me on other threads about Harriman's responsibility for Vietnam and Golden Triangle interests taking down the Corsican Mafia.  I may have been the only poster here who gave you the time of day on your Moynihan-as-Deep Throat riff.  I asked for a point of clarification on psych drug experiments under the Harriman Administration in the late 50's.  Yes, all that material you posted in response to me must have been a waste of time.  Good to know.  

I didn't agree with you -- you've got it backwards.  You agreed with me.  Then disappeared on that topic, challenging as it may the implications to conventional wisdom.  No matter.  Here, you have spent -- what? -- at least five exchanges of utter meaninglessness and passive aggressive quips that amount to nothing, add nothing.  Stake a claim man.  Write.  Express yourself in coherent and developed writing that demonstrates you are capable of thought.   Add some value. 

[Cliff Varnell]

Years ago on the Ed Forum Tosh Plumlee told a tale of a routine abort team mission he helped fly into Dallas early morning 11/22/63.  He said he dropped Johnny Roselli off on an earlier stop.  The abort team was deployed to Dealey Plaza without the needed intelligence to stop the assassination  This is not a widely believed account, but I was willing to give Tosh the time of day on the matter.  He said that DCM looked like abort team member "Gator."  I suggested Gator was confused by the actions of Umbrella Man and sat down next to him to sort him out.  Tosh loved that idea, and thereafter referred to DCM positively as "Gator."

So Gator held his fist in the air to hold the abort team at bay?  That might explain the radio.  That is a more plausible scenario than DCM working for the perps, far fetched as it may be.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

I didn't agree with you -- you've got it backwards.  You agreed with me. 

Factually incorrect.  I asserted Averell Harriman held the most individual responsibility for the Vietnam War, and you said he was tied.  I asserted the Golden Triangle cabal took down the French Connection and you agreed.

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Then disappeared on that topic, challenging as it may the implications to conventional wisdom. 

Yes, it was a lot of material to go over and this is not my main writing pursuit.

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

No matter.  Here, you have spent -- what? -- at least five exchanges of utter meaninglessness and passive aggressive quips that amount to nothing, add nothing. 

You ID'd Joannides as DCM on the basis of clothing and other factors.  Rather than take advantage of the opportunity to explain these "other factors" you decided to pitch a fit

1 hour ago, Matt Cloud said:

Stake a claim man.  Write.  Express yourself in coherent and developed writing that demonstrates you are capable of thought.   Add some value. 

Spare me.  I had impact on the lexicon.  

https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/In-a-Word/2022/0207/Getting-to-the-heart-of-words-made-with-core#:~:text=The suffix -core comes from,groups such as political parties.

The suffix -core comes from hard core, which at first (1841) referred to broken bricks or stones that formed the hard substratum of roads and foundations. By the 1930s, it was an adjective that described the “base” or “core” of groups such as political parties. It then made its way into pornography and, in the 1970s, music, where it was used for “very loud, fast rock,” according to Merriam-Webster. </q>

 

Edited June 11 by Cliff Varnell

[Matt Cloud]

14 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Factually incorrect.  I asserted Averell Harriman held the most individual responsibility for the Vietnam War, and you said he was tied.  I asserted the Golden Triangle cabal took down the French Connection and you agreed.

Factually, a tie is different than "most individual responsibility."  That's not agreement; that's correction by me of you.

As to the French Connection, it's not a matter of my agreeing with you on that or anything.  I told you who ran the operation.  What are you going to tell me?  That's what I'm interested in.

Yes, it was a lot of material to go over and this is not my main writing pursuit.

Fascinating.

You ID'd Joannides as DCM on the basis of clothing and other factors.  Rather than take advantage of the opportunity to explain these "other factors" you decided to pitch a fit

I've already explained the other factors -- in this thread.   He's photo'd training Alpha-66 -- which included Plumlee as you probably know and thus he's not necessarily the best witness here in light of your comment above  -- along with George W. Bush.  Differences in complexion may be attributable to makeup, which appears in at least one photo of DC to be smearing, possibly.  

And if that's what you wanted to know -- you should learn to ask.

Spare me.  I had impact on the lexicon.  

https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/In-a-Word/2022/0207/Getting-to-the-heart-of-words-made-with-core#:~:text=The suffix -core comes from,groups such as political parties.

The suffix -core comes from hard core, which at first (1841) referred to broken bricks or stones that formed the hard substratum of roads and foundations. By the 1930s, it was an adjective that described the “base” or “core” of groups such as political parties. It then made its way into pornography and, in the 1970s, music, where it was used for “very loud, fast rock,” according to Merriam-Webster. </q>

That says written by Melissa Mohr.  I don't see your input there, or your "impact."  It's unimpressive in any case, and a degradation arguably of language anyway (i.e. again short on value), but perhaps you should connect with Lucian Truscott IV -- he coined "Heavy Metal" for the Village Voice in the late 60s.   His father was deputy director of CIA, under whom worked the mysterious John N. McMahon in Germany during the Frank Olson saga there.  

 

14 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 

 

Edited June 11 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Years ago on the Ed Forum Tosh Plumlee told a tale of a routine abort team mission he helped fly into Dallas early morning 11/22/63.  He said he dropped Johnny Roselli off on an earlier stop.  The abort team was deployed to Dealey Plaza without the needed intelligence to stop the assassination  This is not a widely believed account, but I was willing to give Tosh the time of day on the matter.  He said that DCM looked like abort team member "Gator."  I suggested Gator was confused by the actions of Umbrella Man and sat down next to him to sort him out.  Tosh loved that idea, and thereafter referred to DCM positively as "Gator."

So Gator held his fist in the air to hold the abort team at bay?  That might explain the radio.  That is a more plausible scenario than DCM working for the perps, far fetched as it may be.

"The Abort team."  I love it.

Isn't that Plumlee with his jacket covering his face?, along with Goss -- already discussed today on the thread now about the JFK records Act and how he and Moynihan gutted the Public Interest Declassification Board.

 

This photograph was taken in a nightclub in Mexico City on 22nd January, 1963. It has been argued by Daniel Hopsicker that the men in the photograph are all members of Operation 40. Hopsicker suggests that the man closest to the camera on the left is Felix Rodriguez, next to him is Porter Goss and Barry Seal. Hopsicker adds that Frank Sturgis is attempting to hide his face with his coat. It has been claimed that in the picture are Albertao 'Loco' Blanco (3rd right) and Jorgo Robreno (4th right).

[Paul Cummings]

Sorry Bill, but it appears this thread has been hijacked.

[Matt Cloud]

17 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Sorry Bill, but it appears this thread has been hijacked.

Not by me.  All I said was DCM might be Joannides.  Then Hardcore @Cliff Varnell jumped into the mosh pit to slam himself around and act tough.  

[Cliff Varnell]

50 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

That says written by Melissa Mohr. 

No, Melissa Mohr had nothing to do with the origination of hardcore punk rock.

50 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I don't see your input there, or your "impact."

You didn't read the material.  I was the first promoter of "hardcore punk rock."

50 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

It's unimpressive in any case, and a degradation arguably of language anyway (i.e. again short on value),

My friends and I saved the word "hardcore" from a strictly pornographic connotation and added the suffix "-core" to the language.  Dozens of words.  You'll never approach that kind of impact.

[Cliff Varnell]

52 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Sorry Bill, but it appears this thread has been hijacked.

All I did was ask what Felipe Santiago (or George Joannides) and Roy Hargraves were doing in Dealey Plaza.  Seems like a reasonable question.

Edited June 11 by Cliff Varnell

[Matt Cloud]

14 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

No, Melissa Mohr had nothing to do with the origination of hardcore punk rock.

You didn't read the material.  I was the first promoter of "hardcore punk rock."

My friends and I saved the word "hardcore" from a strictly pornographic connotation and added the suffix "-core" to the language.  Dozens of words.  You'll never approach that kind of impact.

I did read the 'effing article.  Melissa Mohr of the Christian Science Monitor cites Marriam-Webster:

"The suffix -core comes from hard core, which at first (1841) referred to broken bricks or stones that formed the hard substratum of roads and foundations. By the 1930s, it was an adjective that described the “base” or “core” of groups such as political parties. It then made its way into pornography and, in the 1970s, music, where it was used for “very loud, fast rock,” according to Merriam-Webster."

This is as daft as your previous go-around.  You've hijacked the thread; you obviously don't care.  Fittingly, it's punkish behavior --  in both the 19th century sense of the word and the 1970s sense. 

I solved Deep Throat -- that's the definition today of hardcore.   

 

[Cliff Varnell]

24 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

I did read the 'effing article.  Melissa Mohr of the Christian Science Monitor cites Marriam-Webster:

There was a second article you didn't read.

The purpose of this thread was to explore the possibility Felipe Vidal Santiago and Roy Hargraves were photographed as Dark Complected Man and Umbrella Man.  Relevant to this discussion is the observed actions of DCM and UM in Dealey Plaza photographs, as well as an eyewitness description of UM's actions.

Umbrella Man and Louis Witt have prominent noses -- Roy Hargraves does not.

Scratch Roy Hargraves as UM.

That leaves us with a reasonable question:  what was Santiago/DCM doing in Dealey Plaza?

[Matt Cloud]

10 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

There was a second article you didn't read.

The purpose of this thread was to explore the possibility Felipe Vidal Santiago and Roy Hargraves were photographed as Dark Complected Man and Umbrella Man.  Relevant to this discussion is the observed actions of DCM and UM in Dealey Plaza photographs, as well as an eyewitness description of UM's actions.

Umbrella Man and Louis Witt have prominent noses -- Roy Hargraves does not.

Scratch Roy Hargraves as UM.

That leaves us with a reasonable question:  what was Santiago/DCM doing in Dealey Plaza?

The secret second article.  Right.  Why do I feel like you've used this as a pick-up line at bars for going-on 45 years now?  I suppose trolling internet fora on JFK research was the inevitable result, one day.  Here we are, and am the guy you pull it on.  Still, I can take it.  But I am gonna do my best to give you something more fitting a man of your would-be intellect to take pride in.   What are you 65-ish?

BTW, I hope you're not taking credit for Foam-Core.  Or The Marine Corps even.  Now matter how much it impresses your friends.  

"Foamcore Boards Has Been Around Since The 1950s.  This type of printing was started in 1957 and was initially made in 3 mm and 5 mm thicknesses. It was first made by Monsanto and was branded as Foam-Core. Now it is a popular backing in picture frames, large-type displays, and galleries and home use."

 

Carry on with the thread.  

Edited June 11 by Matt Cloud

[Cliff Varnell]

14 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

The secret second article.  Right.  Why do I feel like you've used this as a pick-up line at bars for going-on 45 years now?  I suppose trolling internet fora on JFK research was the inevitable result, one day.  Here we are, and am the guy you pull it on. 

A condescending know it all who challenges my bonafides -- you're the right guy.

14 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Still, I can take it. 

Evidently not. You keep harping on it.

I asked a simple question that you are unwilling to answer -- what "other factors" did you base your ID of Joannides upon?

Authoritarian personality types melt down at the simplest of challenges.

14 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

 

But I am gonna do my best to give you something more fitting a man of your would-be intellect to take pride in.   What are you 65-ish?

BTW, I hope you're not taking credit for Foam-Core.  Or The Marine Corps even.  Now matter how much it impresses your friends.  

No, we're taking credit for any non-pornographic use of the word "hardcore" after 1979.

[Robert Morrow]

3 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

"The Abort team."  I love it.

Isn't that Plumlee with his jacket covering his face?, along with Goss -- already discussed today on the thread now about the JFK records Act and how he and Moynihan gutted the Public Interest Declassification Board.

 

This photograph was taken in a nightclub in Mexico City on 22nd January, 1963. It has been argued by Daniel Hopsicker that the men in the photograph are all members of Operation 40. Hopsicker suggests that the man closest to the camera on the left is Felix Rodriguez, next to him is Porter Goss and Barry Seal. Hopsicker adds that Frank Sturgis is attempting to hide his face with his coat. It has been claimed that in the picture are Albertao 'Loco' Blanco (3rd right) and Jorgo Robreno (4th right).

That most definitely is NOT Tosh Plumlee covering his face!!! I think that Tosh Plumlees has previously stated it is himself but I put no credence in that puffery.

It is Frank Sturgis.